What If...? (Spain, Boztepe, et al.)

[reneritchie]

(On the eve of UFC 41)

What if somehow, back in the 80s, Emin Boztepe, Rick Spain, Gary Lam, or one of the other young, hungry, fight-rich WCK proponents wanted to, and was accepted to, fight in the UFC Octogon with Royce, Shamrock, Hackney, and the like. What would have happened?

Would it have been Steve Faulkner the prequel? (clinch, takedown, WCK person losing) Or would it have been an earlier version of Mo Smith or Dan Henderson? (clinch, knockout, grappler losing) Or something else?

[hunt1]

Very hard thing to say. You need to have some idea of the skill all three had at the time. Mo Smith showed that once the game was understood a stand up fighter could do just fine. However based on articles ,videos of the time,etc, I think Boztepe would have lost fast,Spain probably too ( maybe thats why he stated training grappling?)

[anerlich]

I've never seen Mr Boztepe in action so I can't comment.

I think my Sifu would have done as well as any competent kickboxer/pugilist that entered the Octagon. I think he would probably expect to have lost or to have been very lucky to win in hindsight - as he is now a very competent and committed Machado BJJ blue belt.

There WERE good strikers in UFC1. Gerard Gordeau was no tomato can. My teeth have never felt the same after seeing him kick Yarbrough in the mouth. But Royce beat him (Gordeau) with tactics and a strategy he'd never seen before let alone prepared for. Like a nonswimmer dropped into a tank with a shark.

This isn't a total "what if:":

The WWCKFA were invited to enter fighters in the UFC early on. They offered Joe Sayah and Rick Spain. These gents were allegedly rejected as "unknowns" by the UFC organisation because they wre "unknowns" who would do little for the box office. My recollection of the details are hazy, but Marty Goldberg was fairly closely involved and could give more (anyone know how his mother is, BTW?)

Emin also challenged Royce, but of course this never happened.

Personally, I've never liked the UFC that much - IMHO Pride is a much more interesting format. Sakuraba is definitely my favorite fighter.

[reneritchie]

Hunt1 - Good point. Very few had experienced that kind of fight dynamic before and the element of surprise could have been a great hinderance.

Anerlich - Congrats to your sifu on his blue! Even nowadays, pure strikers seem to rely a bit on luck still for their clean wins (as opposed to the ground and pounders or stall and sprawlers). The ones that excell seem well versed enough in wrestling to avoid going down (Lidell) or to get the take down and smash through the guard, against the fence (Ortiz).

I too prefer Pride, and it looks like they have a great card coming up. Sak is amazing, but I think he's rushing his comeback again. Nino Shembri should be familiar enough style for him, but at 80% or whatever he's at now... I don't know. I also think he's nuts for wanting to bulk up for the heavyweight grand prix...

[anerlich]

I also agree with hunt1. I think Royce's biggest advantage was no one was familiar with his system and so were unable to deal with it. Even Ken Shamrock said the gi flummoxed him.

I too think Saku's got his hands full - but to my mind he is an incredibly versatile, exciting and intelligent fighter who might pull an upset.

Ortiz/Liddell should be very interesting.

[captain]

if you dont mind me adding my opinion,i've used judo in
a couple of fights,and though it's an oldie but a goodie,
the way the rules are set up in these events,you must
have more than one style in your arsenal.
if only strike based fighters could learn a couple of
neat tricks from the ground/grapplers.with the way
i see wck working,a fighter could learn some judo/jiu
jitsu,deal with the intitial grapple,then let loose with that
vertical punch ive seen.honestly,it would not take much
instruction for a wck person [with heart] to dominate.one
could use say 25% grapple and finish with wck,then the
feeling would be "he has won using wing chun,he's a
wing chun fighter".the grapple style would merely be
a compliment to the striker.
and that's what i find hard to understand about some
[not all] wing chun fighters,the almost fear of trying out
something "other".and you should,because afterall,jiu jitsu
and judo,are like wck,designed for "anyone",and its far
easier to learn than you might imagine.in fights my judo
was good against people bigger than me,but i admit [and
that's why id like to learn wck] that a good style that can
handle the incoming punches would be fantastic.are you
still awake?

[PaulH]

Over the years I have asked similar questions like this. There is something so thrilling and comforting to hear of past exploits of famous heroes or of your Sifu in the long process of WC learning. Until one day a WC brother cruelly awoke me abruptly from my WC dreams. He pointedly asked: “why are you concerned about so and so? Why don’t you jump and find out what you can do instead of looking at another mans accomplishments, and how does any of this improve your skills?” I was speechless. I replied later that there are no harms in this sort of question. It is a beautiful dream to be shattered. And to that he said:” it's cruel to perpetuate a lie that might get you killed . Or worse pass on idea's that will get someone else killed. everybody is talking but no one is doing and they still ask the why things don't work . it's like the man that spent a lifetime talking about swimming and knew every thing about the body mechanics and concept and taught others these things but then never enters the water for fear of drowning in reality.” I post this not to attack anyone for I am also guilty of this. Perhaps it will serve to stimulate people more to action to experience the truth for ourselves and to test our WC stuffs more.

Regards,

[KenWingJitsu]

PaulH

Golden words. Brilliant.

[Titmalau]

Interesting topic, however hypothetical it is. One point that I think clearly differentiates tournament fighting of any description to that of "real" fighting is the prior knowledge you have of your opponent. No doubt the professional fighters spend countless hours studying their fellow combatants in order to study their strengths and weaknesses, not something that you can do with the same amount of depth in a street situation. So they take this information and train accordingly, with that in mind you'd have to ask yourself how much of the fight is purely based on the fighters skill in the moment and what the specific pre-fight preperation is worth. If Rick Spain had to fight Royce Gracie back in the day then you know he would have done everything to finish the fight on his feet and Royce would have waited to take him to the mat.

Interesting to hear that Rick is a blue belt, I've heard instructors suggest in the Brisbane kwoon that Rick is better than John Will.

[planetwc]

If a guy like Rick Spain, with his experience, physicality, conditioning and skills is ONLY a Machado Blue Belt, that ought to give folks in Wing Chun Kuen a wakeup call about the skills lacking in terms of groundfighting.

What the heck must the Australian purple and brown belts in Machado BJJ be like in terms of submission skills?:eek:

Talk about a reality check for the rest of us plodders.

In any case, congratulations to Spain Sifu on his progress in crosstraining Machado ju jutsu.

[S.Teebas]

What the heck must the Australian purple and brown belts in Machado BJJ be like in terms of submission skills?

Aussies kick a$$

[anerlich]

Interesting to hear that Rick is a blue belt, I've heard instructors suggest in the Brisbane kwoon that Rick is better than John Will.

While their faith in their teacher is shared by me, his humble student, I can assure you that Spain Sifu himself would certainly refute this.

I've taken seminars with John Will and his knowledge and skill are at a whole other level. We are also an associate school of the organisation of which John is the head. As far as Rick Spain and his students are concerned, John Will is THE MAN when it comes to BJJ.

Rick Spain is coached in BJJ by Anthony Lange, a brown belt, and he will tell you that Anthony schools him on a weekly basis.

Anthony himself told me once that one of HIS lessons from John Will was an hour long rolling session where John just spent the whole hour catching Anthony in armbars from every position and direction, at will. Anthony said it was extremely humbling but did wonders for his armbar defence thereafter.

That should give you some idea of the relative skill of Messrs Will and Spain.

That said, Rick Spain is a **** good blue belt. I have the privilege of rolling with him 2-3 times a week. We usually roll fairly light, but a few weeks ago he was feeling a bit frisky after several weeks of a neck injury and decided to go full bore on me. 25 minutes of sheer breathless claustrophobic hell.

Our brown and purple belts in Oz are IMO at least as good as those anywhere else in the world. Elvis Sinosic, Anthony Perosh, and Luke Beston are among those I have had the privilege of meeting.

[reneritchie]

Hey Andrew,

You guys attending the Michael Jen seminar down there? (bearing in mind I have no idea on the geograpy of OZ 8).

What's Luke Beston like in person? Anything like his net personality? He has me ROFLOL with some of his posts.

And to bring it back on topic, has WCK made any impression on their stand up mindsets?

(BTW - Just caught the UFC. Mixed show)

[anerlich]

Rene,

The Jen seminar is on in Sydney. Sifu is taking a trip to NZ and I have previous commitments (work, where I get to type ths :) ) No doubt it would have been great. Anthony Lange is one of the organisers.

We went to JJ Machado's seminar a couple of years back when he was here. I also went to Scott Sonnon's Aussie seminar, which was attended by most of the Machado luminaries mentioned above.

[anerlich]

Luke assisted John Will when he gave a seminar at our kwoon. He was very polite and helpful. He even posted, unprompted, on the Underground that he was quite impressed with Sifu and our school, especially the photo board full of photos of students sparring full contact.

High praise indeed if you're familiar with his regular posts there.

He is a bona fide purple belt and very technical.

Are you the "rene r." I occasionally see on there?

[Titmalau]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by anerlich


While their faith in their teacher is shared by me, his humble student, I can assure you that Spain Sifu himself would certainly refute this.

I'm not suggesting that Rick Spain is better than John Will, not by a longshot. However I distinctly remember the only female instructor in Brisbane clearly suggest that in their HO they felt Rick Spain was the superior. I thought it somewhat of an overstatement at the time, but I can assure you it was said before the whole Kwoon while promoting an up and coming seminar by John Will.

Question: Has Rick competed in any BJJ tournaments? Would be interested to see his record against similarly ranked combatants.

[captain]

i think far more time/worship should have been placed
on my offering.let's say one day a month is given over
to this duty.

[anerlich]

Question: Has Rick competed in any BJJ tournaments? Would be interested to see his record against similarly ranked combatants.

No. Though, a number of other things permitting, he may in a major BJJ arena in the near future. A number of his students have competed and will compete in the future, including myself. But all of us students, at this stage anyway, are white belts.

Remember he's 42, and already has had a successful career in KF tournaments and kickboxing. He's an awesome combat athlete. He doesn't have anything to prove. That said I can ASSURE you he didn't get the rank for any reason other than real commitment to BJJ training, and also that he wouldn't want it any other way. From what I've seen he can hang with any other Machado blue and a fair number of purples.

Really I think it's stupid to compare Rick and John. Both gents have great skill and great knowledge in their respective experience base, and respect and like each other a great deal. Saying one is better than the other does both a disservice.

[reneritchie]

High praise indeed if you're familiar with his regular posts there.

Absolutely.


Are you the "rene r." I occasionally see on there?

Yeah, I was locked out of "rene ritchie" when they changed over to the new version, and so went to "rener" which prompter Rorion to complain and me to get switched to "rener fan", which was hillarious (though I do think he's an awesome competitor) and so now I'm on to rene.r. Hopefully I'll be able to maintain that one.

[Titmalau]

Originally posted by anerlich


From what I've seen he can hang with any other Machado blue and a fair number of purples.



I'd be interested to see if Rick has a different approach to the takedown situation, if his close range combat skills/shoot chi sao skills allow him any sort of advantage. From what I've seen most guys just wait for the pretty standard shoot option, does he have a different approach, can he shoot from situations others can't?

As far as his level in BJJ goes that sounds a bit more accurate, we were told allot of BS in the Brisbane Kwoon by the head instructor about many different things including Ricks BJJ achievements. This is why so many of the seniors left, including 10th levels! I had initially lost allot of respect for Rick because of this, but on some level it's good to hear the BS doesn't thrive through the whole organisation.

[anerlich]

"I'd be interested to see if Rick has a different approach to the takedown situation, if his close range combat skills/shoot chi sao skills allow him any sort of advantage. From what I've seen most guys just wait for the pretty standard shoot option, does he have a different approach, can he shoot from situations others can't?"

I really wouldn't say so. Really, the use of sensitivity and leverage, and the manipulation of force, are governed by the same mechanical principles. Realistically, most of the takedowns currently employed in BJJ competition are imported from wrestling, and, to a lesser extent, judo. BJJ in the early days was not known for its takedown skills. And this part of the game has really only flourished as wrestlers and judoka began to cross train. Rick Spain from what I've seen is still at the stage of learning the takedowns from wrestling - though his low single is pretty slick.

There's little point IMO in trying to impose a WC game on something BJJ'ers and wrestlers have been doing a lot longer than we have. If you decide you need to learn this new art to complement the old one, you're better starting to learn the new art's principles and basic philosophy, before you make any attempt to impose your own art's philosophy thereon. Sensitivity and structural awareness are hallmarks of WC, but they are also attributes possessed by every good grappler.

We have played around with different ways to get the back using WC hands rather than the standard wrestling arm drags and duckunders, and similar. But at this stage at least, I think we're exploring the similarities and commonality between the arts rather than to take anything into new territory.

John Will is actually really good at setting up takedowns with strikes, though he approaches it more from a MT/kickboxing angle. His book "Fight Logic" exhibits this. It's not like there aren't people out there that can't do this. He has a scarily fast jab-double leg. Arguably JBW has contributed to the Machado org's takedown strategy as he brings a significant amount of wrestling experience to it from other training he has done.

"we were told allot of BS in the Brisbane Kwoon by the head instructor about many different things including Ricks BJJ achievements. This is why so many of the seniors left, including 10th levels!"

IMO the rubber has yet to hit the road with the BJJ achievements of anyone in our organisation, other than the rank promotions achieved, the fact that we were invited to join the Machado organisation, and some participation in competitions. The same could be said of lots of WC practitioners where their art is concerned with similar logic, however. I hope in the future that our organisation can play some part in increasing respect for WC amongst the BJJ fraternity.

As for any tall tales being why "so many seniors left, including 10th levels", there is DEFINITELY more to it than that. I will not disrespect my Sifu and Sihings, and my organisation by discussing such issues on a public forum. Those who left, and any anyone who speaks for them, should consider whether such discussion would really further their cause or be of value to anyone.

[reneritchie]

Great post AN!

[Titmalau]

The interesting thing about the UFC, and other MMA tournaments, is watching how the style of combat has evolved and continies to do so. I think their are definite parallels to what you see happening in many freestyle/jeet kune do/progressive MMA systems (Such as Rick Spains system).

I think it's hard to really gauge how past masters would have faired given a variety of reasons; Fitness, suitablility to rules, weight divisions, environment (caged in may be a disadvantage to a traditional martial artist) and even motivation to a certain extent.

One thing I've always found curious about Wing Chun, is that of the many legends of great masters, such as the Canton Ten Tigers, none of them were Wing Chun Fighters. Also interesting is that the number one Tiger of the Ten was a Tibetan Lama Kung Fu fighter, not exactly biomechanically efficient?