How many types of Jing are there in SLT?

[Phenix]

How many types of Jings are there in SLT?
and how to cultivate them?

[TjD]

depends how you split them up, but i'll take a bite and say how i see it:

long bridge, short bridge, tan, fook, bong.


best way to cultivate them is to give total attention to your siu lim tau. the better your attention is the better your ability to realize how to improve what your doing.

from my limited experience:
relaxed tan/fook/wu with perfect form performed slowly builds the energy. the rest of the form releases it.

[tparkerkfo]

Two....The ones that work and the ones that don't. You cultivate them by doing them correctly. LOL. Now, what do I win?

Seriously though, this is an excellent question. I myself am a little confused on jing. I have not had a lot of exposure to the specifics of jing and how it relates to wing chun.

Tom
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[Xiao3 Meng4]

My understanding of Jing is that it is the foundation of one's potential.

Having a solid foundation means optimizing one's potential. This principle can be applied to one's life from the moment of birth: genetic makeup, variables one is exposed to while in the womb.. These all culminate to form the foundation that one's potential will emanate from.

No matter what one's foundation may be (bow-legs, 3 limbs, large lung capacity, blindness, efficient digestion, etc.), one still has the capacity to find balance and rootedness... to optimize the use(potential) of one's jing.

"Fa Jing" translates into "explosive foundation" or "explosive structure." Essentially, using one's optimum potential - sending energy along a vector with your entire foundation(body).

I'm not sure, but I think when people talk of Jings in Wing Chun they're refferring to general representations of optimal structure for certain given situations (Bong sao, Tan Sao, etc.)

Really it's only one Jing. No matter what kind of jing it is, it has set potential. That means a balance, at once structural, energetic, and spiritual, exists from which all potential possibilities are equally viable. Within this balance exists the vital jing, the harmonious qi, and the flowering shen.

Xiao3 Meng4

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Xiao3 Meng4

Really it's only one Jing. No matter what kind of jing it is, it has set potential. That means a balance, at once structural, energetic, and spiritual, exists from which all potential possibilities are equally viable. Within this balance exists the vital jing, the harmonious qi, and the flowering shen.

Xiao3 Meng4




JIng in Chinese means the path of force. This is a very specific term which points to very specific things.

So it can't be just one type of path. Right?


Say People talk about Jing like Peng in Taiji.
Or Reel silk JIng ......

So what are the SLT's Jings? what are the Jings one is cultivating?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo


Seriously though, this is an excellent question. I myself am a little confused on jing. I have not had a lot of exposure to the specifics of jing and how it relates to wing chun.

Tom


Hi Tom,

Understood and agree.
HOwever, it is a disaster if one don't get the JIngs stuffs clear...
One's techincs will not be "crispy or crytal clear" if the JIngs are not clear. IMHO.

[yylee]

just off the top of my little head:

in SNT there are jings which is more circular in nature, like Tan-Bong, Tan to Gaan, raising Double Tan Sau (in the beginning).

Others involves direct body mass transfer, such as the Gum Sau's to the side, front and back.

Some long bridges ones like the Fatt Sau, or those two that you straigthened the arms and raise up and press down (forgot the names, must be getting old).

The first Tan Sau in the beginning focus all energy forward, and the Fook Sau too. If Tan-Bong is circular, then this first Tan Sau and other palm hits will be more triangular.

The Wu Sau, some say it is a guarding hand, we use it to train the reverse energy. Also an interest way to use body mass.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Phenix,

I look at many others practice and I see force, not jing. When I see Yip Man do it, you can see some Jing, but much seems to be hidden. The way I am taught to do it, there is not much that you can see really. By seeing I mean the snappy, crisp, explossive jing that many do. I man supposed to do it very soft and relax. Much like water flowing. The power is not apparent when water is flowing until something is infront of it. So, our forms don't seem to show much power until something is in the path.

I am not aware of differnt types of jings and how it relates to your training. We talk about long bridge energy in addition to what we normally do. So I would say that is atleast two types.

Maybe this will be something I look more into so I know what is meant by jing more clearly.

Tom
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[Phenix]

Hi Tom,

Certainly this is not a simple issue. However, it is important stuffs imho.

Jing in my understanding is the dynamic flow of the force. The same middle punch explicitly can have different dynamic flow of force. And lik or force or structure are something static. So, at the dynamic flow state, the lik became actively flowing and the structure also become actively transforming to serve as a platfrom of this dynamic flow of force. All body vectors are align dynamicly due to the dynamic shifting of mind or Yee.

So how many type of Jings? IMHO, there are more then 12 due to a minimum of 6 straight paths combinations with 2 spiral path.....

[yuanfen]

how many kinds of jing? Too many.

[reneritchie]

Hendrik,

IMHO there's a core Ging, and then the Ging manifest in each and every movement. Why do you ask?

[yuanfen]

Yes- the one and the many.

Yes- why HendriK?

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Phenix
How many types of Jings are there in SLT?
and how to cultivate them?
E pluribus unum? :D

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Hendrik,

IMHO there's a core Ging, and then the Ging manifest in each and every movement. Why do you ask?

Rene,

imho,
Appear so, but the more i search the more i think it is more.....
why do i ask? trying to understand how others views.

[t_niehoff]

tomparkerfo writes:

When I see Yip Man do it, you can see some Jing, but much seems to be hidden. TP

IME you cannot see "ging" (jing is the mandarin, cantones is the "language" of WCK), you can only *feel* it (being expressed). This is why someone can't simply copy another's motion -- the same motion can have different mechanics behind it, thus giving it a different ging, and thus the movement has different capabilities. TN

Terence

[Phenix]

IMHO, Thus I have heard,

the definition of Jing is "force with path".
Fa Jing means " issueing force with certain path". Prerequisite of Fa Jing, one needs to ensure the path which will be using as the passage of the force is clear. IMHO, I like this definition better for now until I know better because Jing cannot be something mystical or something cannot be defined. How to cultivate in things which is not tangible? Can't. I personally never belive in "oh, this is the ancient original set, do it 100 times and you will be the best."


Thus, say structure, rooting.... there are certain path needs to be used. are they clear? can one really issuing force in this/these path....

Thus, imitating the external shape will not achive the same result as knowing which Jing is used.


For example, Yang TaiJi alone has atleast 20 types of JIng. with combination of path and the way how the force issue within the path. IMHO, if these type of jings are not understood and know. there is no way of bounce or control the oponent. At least, with Yang invincible, that is how much details Yang get into.



If the Qing royal family knows Yang Invicible's art, my question is how does the so called Shao Lin based jing type match up to this 20 or more types of JIng?


IMHO, the generally so called WCK Shao Lin Jing type is not as refine compare with the Taiji jing type. Thus, based on the content of jings, I never belive people's claim of the original advance martial art created from shao lin named as WCK disregard even Mao Zee Tong say so.

if SLT doesn't have a content as great or better then other's technology which has appeared in Qing Dynasty such as the Yang TaiJi. Certainy, one can belive what one belive and it is perfectly alright and acceptable. However, the question remaind is how can the such Shao Lin Tai Zu type of Jing defeat those Qing Technology? The answer is up to everyone's belive and it can be anything from Shao Lin has secret...... to WCK is the best.....
But, I still belive one cannot fight Laser and neuclear weapon technology with TNT explosive. It is ok to make claim. but does one has the technology?

So, how many jing are they in SLT/SNT or first section of SLT of Yik Kam? That is the interesting questions. If we think WCK is invicible if other promote WCK is from Shao Lin..... we all have to answer that question honestly. Sure I can pulled my Hung Mun Salutation and code in 1850, but I can't bail myself out if my art is not par with the Qing.

Just my personal opinion.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Terence and Phenix,

That makes sense to me. When I say seeing "Ging", I mean the visual snapping or crispness that some do. Is there a term for that visual expression? In any case, that is not what I do. I am not too familair with the subtlties of the term Jing. But I think your correct in that it is how you issue the force and what it feels like.

Would you guys say that it is like throwing a basket ball with various types of spins on it. You can throw a ball so that it spins forward or backwards for instance. A wierd analogy I know, but I have a Tai Chi book that lists all sorts of jings to include spiraling. To me, a punch is just a punch, but others seem to focus on the jing, at least in other arts. I am not sure if these are distinct jings, or if they are all really part of the same thing.

I am not familiar with peeling distinct jings to know what they all feel like. My book and Phenix suggested there are many, perhaps 20 or more. I remember some as spiraling and I think spitting and swallowing as well. Well, what I have felt is all linked to the same thin. When I feel something, it is to me, just energy. My hand is dropped or moved out of the way. When I am hit, the energy just stays inside of me rather than traveling through me. I think it is just simple physics and nothing mystical. But I don'tknow.

Hmmmm
Tom
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[reneritchie]

When someone "Faat Ging" (expresses power) you can sometimes see it. Eg. Chen Taiji or Sum Nung WCK. Yang Taiji, and other branches of Taiji, sometimes you can't.

[Mckind13]

Here is a thought

14 key methods x 6 gates (High, middle, low with an inner and outer each)
14x6=84
each one could be applied with each of the three poisons (tan, bong, fuk).

84x3=252

hand: hand hand: body body: hand body: body methods

252x4=1008
that’s 1008 different paths and energies for delivering ging...



So I would say there are lots in WC but only one correct way for the situation that the opponent presents to us
:p

David McKinnon

[yylee]

Originally posted by Mckind13
Here is a thought

252x4=1008
that’s 1008 different paths and energies for delivering ging...


There are 6 Chi meridians on each limb, 3 Yin's and 3 Yang's. If each WC movement contains at least one arm and one leg. There are at least 36 variations in which each of them contains a unique arm channel and leg channel mapping. So..... to multiply with your 1008, then ...... oh, LOL!

just kidding, don't take it too seriously :)

[Mckind13]

I am not :P

David

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yylee


There are 6 Chi meridians on each limb, 3 Yin's and 3 Yang's. If each WC movement contains at least one arm and one leg. There are at least 36 variations in which each of them contains a unique arm channel and leg channel mapping. So..... to multiply with your 1008, then ...... oh, LOL!

just kidding, don't take it too seriously :)


So the 36.... 108 is not about buddist or chinese numberlogy.... it is 12 x3 .... 12 x 9. LOL

12 x 3 for heaven
12 x 3 for man
12 x 3 for earth.

a total of 108.

Don't take me serious either. otherwise , it will be no fun ...:D

[tparkerkfo]

heh...call me naive....I still only see one. When you hit 'em.

Tom
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[yuanfen]

Countless number of jings- too many to list... all different from
just "lik" strength---in no particular order- some samples

explosive- would be called fajing by some
jerking- jut geng
ngan jgeng- elastic
breaking
wrist snapping
tan geng- swallowing
tau-spit
sink-jam
balance- ping haan
direct-jeh jip
drilling
internal-ngoi geng
chasing- joi geng
lin jip geng- connecting
listening-keng jeng


All coming from the same source- your gung fu development.
All demonstrable by capable folks..

[yuanfen]

Phenix- comment on jings?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Phenix- comment on jings?

Imho,

explosive is a type of fajing. But most of the time fajing is effortless... it is like the butcher disassemble the cow without wearing butcher knife. it just adaptive, non resistance, slide through and cut deep and clean..

wrist snapping is a motion. However, there are atleast two different path can be used for issues in this motion even it loooks similar....

That atleast two different path guarentee the "flow" , "clean", " not against"... and adaptive....

water surface of a lake can goes any and everywhere when it's was hit. but it won't against..... that is the beauty of SLT's Jings.

Not saying it is easy...

[canglong]

IME you cannot see "ging" (jing is the mandarin, cantones is the "language" of WCK), you can only *feel* it (being expressed).--TN

This is my understanding as well.


When someone "Faat Ging" (expresses power) you can sometimes see it. Eg. Chen Taiji or Sum Nung WCK.-- RR

Could you elaborate further?