Can Internal training make u go crazy/sick?

[friday]

i've heard that internal training done incorrectly can cause internal injury as well as affecting the mental state of the practitioner. hallicunations, vomiting, nausea etc.

what are ppls' ideas on this and experience?

can different internal training methods from different systems which train your internal energy flow clash and also cause problems if u try to train both systems at the same time?

i think in cantonese phonetically it sounds somethnig like "jouw for yup more"

[Laughing Cow]

Any form of training if not done correctly will result in adverse side-effects.

Best do it under supervision of a good teacher.

Here is an example how Zhang Zhuang if done incorrectly can affect you.

If you try to force the breath into the Dan Tien you will create high blood pressure in the anal region which can result in piles or similar.

The things you described seem to come from inaccurate breathing during the exercises, but I am no expert on this topic.

[SevenStar]

I've heard that some methods of golden bell may have weir d temporary psychological effects. Changes in emotional state, etc.

[JAZA]

Hiperventilation:)

[Cody]

As with anything, if you do it wrong, there will be effects. Some bodies might be more forgiving than others. Need to know yourself.
Sometimes all that is needed if there is an obvious mistake is to stand quietly and let things even out by themselves, and then to take rest of day off from this practice -- recommended by Yang Jwing Ming in one of his books. Came in handy for me one day. This kind of study shouldn't be forced or rushed. It's development, not a contest. I think that not being sure and forging ahead accounts for many mistakes. Or, the energy might just pick up and go on its own, all of a sudden, and then stop and your mind can't direct it because whole thing was unexpected. A blockage. This last point is what I referred to above.

As far as mental state goes, you're working with what you've got. You might have enhanced experiences, sensory and otherwise. It's a matter of maintaining perspective.
Pre-existing mental conditions need to be taken into consideration. I don't think that internal training will make you crazy unless you are already, or unless drugs are involved. We all have weaknesses or imbalances of emotion; these could be temporarily magnified.
A great deal of what goes into mental state in these situations, I think, has to do with expectations and imaginings, and influences of other people, especially authority figures.
One might say that serious internal study amounts to the construction of an additional reality state, in terms of how one is able to operate in the world and relate to self and others.
From observation, I have noticed that people with exceptional levels of internal training in their arts are more strongly themselves in Every aspect. impressive, and not necessarily what I had expected.

If something goes wrong, there's a reason for it which shouldn't be overlooked. Sometimes, a lot of things go right. Two sides to this coin.

I don't have experience to address one of your concerns; however, if you try to learn two things at the same time, at beginner or intermediate stages, and confuse the methods, then it is too soon for you to attempt this. The mind directs the energy. But, let's say the mind is thinking of two methods at the same time and thinks oh maybe I'll do this or maybe that and what comes out is a hybrid. This can happen when you're training in only one system (lol). Get my point?
I don't know about clashing of methodology between systems. Better to ask experts in the disciplines involved.

Cody

[ZIM]

Cody- that was a very good post.


From observation, I have noticed that people with exceptional levels of internal training in their arts are more strongly themselves in Every aspect. impressive, and not necessarily what I had expected.

I have noticed that much internal work is involved in stripping away the 'masks' that we carry with us day to day, rather than building a new and inflated/'improved' one. One should just allow what is natural to become evident, then work with that.

For me, that is the key... and just my 2 cents.

[Cody]

ZIM, thank you.
You have appropriately emphasized that it is the natural self which is being trained To Be, by working with what becomes evident. fundamental. a source of grounding.
Each aspect of natural self, some given shape by the training where there was no expression before, is developed. It's a time to look into the mirror, and to see inner reflections as well. Man, what a surprise that can be.

Cody

[friday]

I was asking becos i only do some basic internal stuff in a style

and do some intermediate level qigong sets that are health orientated.

anyway i was told this story by some friends that this guy at another kwoon went nuts from doing internal stuff improperly or too quickly. anyway i'm not sure whether the guy had a problem initially and it could have been a whole lot of other things that may have sparked off the problem.

the potential for internal damage, mental problems etc are contained in legends and according to sifus nowadays. i'm just wondering how much of it is true how much is myth.

[Cheese Dog]

As far as mental problems, I have never seen any. But I personally know an instructor who made himself ill by severely overdoing hard chigong.

In our system we do a traditional Okinawan tension and breathing kata called Sanchin. It is good for your health to do it for a few minutes a few times a week. However he began practicing it for 1/2 hour or more a day every day. After awhile he began feeling ill, tired, etc., all the time. He went to an accupuncturist who after testing informed him that his yang was becoming too yin and yin was too yang and if he didn't stop this practice he would likely develop heart problems (his heart was allready beginning to beat faster than normal). He immediately stopped and is fine today. The point is FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS, THEY ARE THERE FOR A VERY GOOD REASON!!!

[BrentCarey]

Originally posted by friday
the potential for internal damage, mental problems etc are contained in legends and according to sifus nowadays. i'm just wondering how much of it is true how much is myth.
Cody already covered this pretty well, but I'll throw in my experience as well. In 25 years of training and teaching, I have never heard of anyone going "crazy" as such. However, it can severely mess with your state of mind. This generally manifests itself in the form of agitation, aggression, disorientation/confusion, fogginess/spaciness, lethargy, etc. This is typically short-lived - a few minutes to a few days. However, I can see how it could be perpetuated and evolve into a long-term disorder.

In any case, qigong is not particularly dangerous provided you pay attention to your physical and mental state, note everything even if it seems unrelated, and can consult with an expert freely. Most problems are very minor if nipped in the bud.

While it is important to consult regularly with an expert, it is not necessary to learn directly under the supervision of an expert. The real substance of qigong is very difficult to teach directly, and difficult to measure externally. Therefore, even the best instructor cannot really teach it. He/she can point in the right direction and help correct mistakes, but qigong very much requires a process of personal exploration. One ultimately has to teach oneself.

So, my comments are not intended to deter you from this process. Definitely explore all aspects of qigong. Just be very sensitive to what is going on in your body/mind, and consult an expert when you have even a small question.

I hope this helps.

-B

[Former castleva]

"i've heard that internal training done incorrectly can cause internal injury as well as affecting the mental state of the practitioner. hallicunations, vomiting, nausea etc."

There are notes on how ppl with mental issues should practice with care,or avoid with but as to myths,it is very hard to approach objectively since by the time such exercises were developed there was no understanding of the concept of mental health itself (not to mention the complexity of brains=cns etc.)
Even around western countries,it is not too many centuries ago that people would rather refer to such conditions as possessions by devils rather than neurochemistry,eh. :)
I would not be going too deep into more "physical" issues which I consider understandable enough.
However,as I´m not into qi,shen and holistic approach at all I take the "mind" issue as just plain earthly "disorientation" that various chemical changes cause,I would take medication and related things into account too.
Related practices of meditation,somewhat similar in stature are associated and proven to cause evident changes in brain activity/function.
In the end of the day,we will be stuck with more or less esoteric explanations until someone proves legitimate research to be necessary. :)

[dezhen2001]

friday :)

some methods of qigong - especially hard qigong can cause these things you mentioned. it creates a lot of "heat" in the body which rises up. So usually there is also some form of meditation or "shou gong" (ending exercise) to balance the physical aspect.

My sifu told me a story of someone who trained our method, and neglected to do meditation after training. Gradually he became very aggressive and irritable, which is the exact opposite of what training should develop. His mind was very busy and he was not centred, as well as suffering from some of the symptoms you mentioned above.

So basically, train qigong - its good! BUT make sure you get corrected regularly by your sifu and follow what he teaches.

just my experience,
dawood

[GeneChing]

There are so many forms of Qigong. Within that realm, there are certianly many harmful practices, especially when you start getting into the martial "iron shirt" stuff. But there are also several milder practices, like say, eight sections brocade, that are strictly beneficial. Or maybe I should say that it's really hard to hurt yourself with these.

As for your mind, there are definately pitfalls in any practice of personal alchemy. It's rare for someone to go stark raving mad unless the practice is extreme or the person had some underliying predisposition. But there are mental pitfalls that are more subtle. In yoga, there is a lot of discussion of inproper sequencing leading to egomania. I find the same is very true in qigong. A lot of qigong people turn into egomaniacs. I've come to this conclusion after years of direct observation, and while it may seem controversial, think about it for a while. It provides a handy explanation of all that is wrong with qigong - the charlatans, the exorbitant prices, bad teachers, hokey esoterica, the new agey crap. It's all ego issues of the "master."

Qigong is power and power can corrupt the ego. It's challenging, but every practitioner must remain detached from this, or egomania will halt your progress.

[ZIM]

"If you choose to follow the path of meditation, you are likely to encounter what are sometimes referred to as your "karmic knots"—those physical and emotional traumas you have accumulated throughout your lifetime. " (http://www.yogajournal.com/wisdom/736_1.cfm) [and there are, of course, other articles there which might be good]

Gene- I've not quite looked at it that way- but I'm sure you're right! :)

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Friday:

Great power comes great responsibility. Sure chi kung training can make one go mad because the desire for power makes one go hungry - could send them on a murderous rampage. One can do things of superhuman origin.

[Former castleva]

I thought the point we left from in the beginning was loosely medical,"grazy" being the term for folk psychiatry. :)
Now it does not really seem to be heading that way...and where are those superhuman feats?

[Cody]

Ego_E,
Relative absolute power can corrupt absolutely.

-- Qigong puts us into contact with our true selves (that which is hidden from others, or even from ourselves). new developments, new sensation, new possibilities, as energies are encountered.

1.------On a base level, I can think of a Partial analogy. that of puberty.
The young person is not prepared for this primal energy and associated drives. One might be instructed to mature before going out into the world, or, to abstain altogether until that magical moment known as marriage. I tend to favor the former course. In my view, what we are seeing is the development of responsibility for one's actions and their consequences, including how another person feels if they are used in the name of love, used as an object. Some don't care or don't feel; compassion for others is reserved for other situations or just for show. There is no real development then.
------As we look around us, this maturation does not go far enough in the population, imo. It's fairly elementary that there will be excesses in those who study energy within themselves when they haven't even been able to master the fundamentals of how to Not treat people like objects in the apparent norm of day-to-day existence.

2.------Imbalance of the hungers, is not identical to madness, though it might appear to be on occasion. It is generally a matter of poor choice, or a choice that is allowed to happen with not much more than a nod of the head. In other words, with the person not realizing he made a choice. Yet, it is made. How? It was made a long time ago. New opportunities point the way for manifestation of all aspects of a person.
------In kwoon, some of what is studied is the building of power to punch or kick. The building of power not to be injured easily. Does that necessarily lead to the hunger to dominate to the point of cruelty (and for that cruelty to become as a madness)? Does the building of further power via advanced internal training make for insanity? No, not without the seeds of insanity already present.
------Quigong only provides an opportunity for what we are to emerge. Even without conscious awareness of all our "automatic" martial deeds, inside we have made choices, stored subconsciously, and those are carried out. Past choices can be changed with the force of will. But, what if the will is not exercised and old patterns of choice and behavior have free reign? If these patterns are flawed or inappropriate, then it might appear as madness. It could be madness, if that is what was the case to begin with. Other aspects of one's nature might not be so easy to deal with, but awareness counts for a lot.
------The novice or more advanced practioner, who is aware of the power of choice and exercises it properly, might seem a little weird sometimes, but this is not necessarily a symptom of mental imbalance.
------Primary powers of Qigong. First, the use of personal will for personal energy development, according to what you are. Second, work with it. The choice of what we are to be, with or without this addtional education, is always ours. unless we reliquish it, but that's another tangent.

3.------"One can do things of superhuman origin." That's a loaded sentence, and well put.
------I would think of "superhuman" as meaning that which Should be beyond man, or beyond common man. (The ordinary can result from lack of opportunity, lack of potential, or lack of motivation to learn and to act in extraordinary ways.)
------Certain phenomena seem that they Should be beyond our abilities as humans because they are not of us. Yes? And yet, widely believed sources tell us we are part of a greater energy of a creator. We partake of the creator's benevolence, etc. We are at once separate from, and part of, the creator. One might not believe in a God, or in that sort of determinism, as absolute controlling factors. I don't. That's my choice. Yet, there are energies outside and inside me and I am free to investigate them, at risk. Whatever we can do is Part of the human legacy, imo. It doesn't matter if one human does it or a whole community. It is ours to do, but not ours to own, for I feel we own nothing but ourselves, a kernel. The superhuman is merely human to me. The origins are unknown. Our origins are unknown, imo. I know there is energy inside which can be mobilized and manifested and that people can fight and share that way. That's enough to work with for now, given the mixed character of humanity. As long as I don't feel used in a way that goes against my nature, I can live with it.

Cody

[cha kuen]

I have herad that chi kung will either make you a better person or you may go crazy.

[Former castleva]

I think Yang Jwing Ming puts it well in his book-"if you have never tried a fitness program before,or want an alternative to aerobics and jogging...".
While this probably is not meant to reflect the whole image of qi-gong,I think this gives a good idea of an exercise with no artificially extended strings attached.
I like to jog,I do not think it has necessarily made me a better person,neither have I gone crazy yet...at least any more crazy.This pretty much reflects my personal experiences with qg as well.
(Look for a message in this message)
:)

[Cody]

Former castleva,
The only strings are those you bring, and those you are unprepared for.
However, without complications, and at certain levels, there is the simplicity you mention. While there are Qigong exercises which represent alternatives to other kinds of exercise, serious internal training for martial arts is another animal, driven by different intent.

"There are two categories of Qigong training: martial arts Qigong and Qigong for health, longevity, and spiritual attainment."
from Qigong For Health and Martial Arts, Chap. 1, by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. The latter is what you have referred to.
Dr. Yang seems to have immense respect for beliefs and for the energies themselves, as well as for where they overlap.

The energies are there, no matter what one's beliefs, imo. People explain energies, categorize them, and organize technique and foundation according to a combination of how they see their world and how it works. As with anything, some choose to color outside the lines in coloring book, or take information from different sources and go in a different direction.
There is room for this, and also the necessity for expert guidance for the most part, imo.

best,
Cody

[[Censored]]

In a word, yes. Thankfully, most people don't have the talent, method, or perseverance to "achieve" this. :)

An extremely poor diet can also make you crazy, and you don't even need any kung-fu! Try eating a cheeseburger and a Coke at every meal for a month, if you don't believe it.

[ZIM]

Huh.

I was just reading over this and was wondering if friday actually got his question answered to his satisfaction in any direct way.
:confused:

Behind the words, you might see a commonality that isn't discussed as much because nobody can force it: it depends on your moral insight, what your belief structure is, or isn't.

Anyhow, you asked about 'wrong practices', so here goes some:

- I've heard of persons who meditate on 'the inner killer', thinking to activate this reprobate impulse on command, even have 'it' protect them constantly... well, you do need to be aware of it and tame it, sure, but to encourage it is against my beliefs, see? Who wants to become a sociopath? I just see it as 'shortcutting' and stupid.

- some forms of Kung Fu specialize in certain kinds of jings, say like 'shaking' jing as found in Trembling Crane. Taught wrongly, I could fully see this as tending to make a person more jumpy and anxious over time, especially if they are not taught how to smooth out that energy.
Also, other KF types would consider that kind of energy flat out wrong *for themselves* so they might view it as "crazy" I guess.

- some of the practices of Taoism might seem pretty odd to those not in the know, so that might account for some things. OTOH I've heard older forms of external alchemy involved mercury and other chemicals known to harm the brain and nervous systems. Luckily this form of qiqong is very rare now.

-Last, any mental diseases are considered qi influenced (http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/yinfire_mental.html) generally, in TCM

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Zim,

People who meditate on the "inner killer" are actually chicken at heart. They would be too afraid to even take the first step of doing some contact sparring or the next step in a BJJ tournie. Meditating on some imaginary killer instinct is no way to become a hunter. If one is really so brave then face a charging wart hog and take it to the ground.

People who do this chi kung meditation are push over, scrawney whimps who know everything about chinese culture and nothing about self defence.

[ZIM]

E_E:
Having read much psychological literature on sociopaths and their development, I can see what you're saying here. Thanks!

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

Zim,

And one must not have a false sense of security that scrawny whimps are benign, having the impression of what is a type cast "dangeroes person". There are many ways in which scrawney whimps can be dangerous. Sociopath have a differenct set of values - for example terrorist who are prepared to blow themselves up. In these days, one does not need to be big and tough physically to do immense damage.

Unfortunately people who have not experienced moderate levels of violence - such as in sparring or BJJ etc do not understand the degress of violence in order to respond to a situation accordingly. The danger in meditating on the "inner killer" may result in an all or nothing response which could risk overriding what we understand to be human values.

[ZIM]

As far as correcting goes:

I've been looking at "The Way of Qigong" by K. S. Cohen recently- in it, he mentions a taiji man who became progressively less centered.. apparently, he was connecting to and focusing on his "3rd aura".

Now thats odd. I'm guessing this guy became really sensitized, much beyond what was intended for taiji practice, and definitely he was getting away from correct practice. By the description, his taiji looked like nothing, very obviously disjointed and wandering.

So, K.S. told him to stop taiji for a year and concentrate solely on standing practice, to increase his sense of grounding. I strongly feel that that is good advice.

He also mentioned a famous buddhist teacher who was so far gone from meditating alone in a cave for 25 years that he could no longer relate in a real way. For this kind of thing, it has to be remembered that qigong is a real world thing, totally an experiential thing. Get out and smell the roses or coffee, you know?

He mentions that 'qi-gong psychotic reaction' is listed as an entry in the DSM-IV in the glossary of culture-bound syndromes.

thus: "A term describing an acute, time limited episode characterized by dissociative, paranoid, or other psychotic or nonpychotic symptoms that may occur after particiopation in the Chinese folk health-enhancing practice of qi-gong. Esp. vulnerable are individuals who become overly involved in the practice."

Last, he mentioned that research and treatment is being explored in China by Dr. Zhang Tongling, prof of psychiatry at Beijing Medical Uni. Looking her up on the Net might yield more info.

[Cody]

The DSM-IV definition quoted below covers the waterfront. Fortunate that they added "time limited" to the soup. I'll need to see what else is written in that description when I get a chance.

I will consider what is here.
Basically, it's not alluding to anything we don't already know in some fashion. except it's not clear how. "overly involved" doesn't solve the case for me.
That the baggage you carry with you to practice is going to open even if it had locks on it.
Or, that the study needs to be approached with rational and careful direction and proper foundation.
Or that what you believe to be so in your deepest heart or earliest fears, can manifest in mind surprisingly clearly, if one relaxes enough to let the underlying layers of neural activity to rise up. In this relaxation of inner boundaries of consciousness, the meditative process can expose that which it has not necessarily created.

The emphasis on "individuals who become overly involved in the practice" might indicate an innate imbalance in that sample, or, "poor" teaching which can play into the hands personal expectations, which skews the mental apparatus. any number of causes. "Overly involved" applies to an additional lack of balance. It can simply mean than the focus is incorrect and is not corrected. The questions are why and how?
Especially for health-oriented practice, one can innocently trot over to a neighborhood park and get going, without setting limits, because it's good for you.

If you're not grounded inside, not taught how to be, or your personal training is not disciplined, you stand a chance of getting lost in your own psychological mud while in an unexpected trance state. This can be on an individual basis or shared (and strengthened) by a group, with or without a leader. Sometimes, the leader can be the problem. (Yang Jwing Ming has referred to unusual symptoms occurring in practice.)

If you add MA physical training (an animal form; dissociating from incoming pain), etc., then trained disssociation from normal consciousness is part of the package, imo.
How this occurs, and what a person's expectations are, are worthy considerations.
Again, we come to inner grounding. Part of that is maintaining the same standards of what one will or will not do no matter what level of consciousness is involved. This part involves perception and judgment which go beyond the conscious.

The kernel of same self Always remains, or is supposed to. That's homework and it takes time. If that kernel is not there, whether in health-oriented work, or in MA internal training, there is a problem which could surface and must be taken seriously.
What occurs could be as simple as what happens during intoxication, when a person might do or say what they really want to, rather than holding it in (aware or unaware). Same self is operational. Only it's really expressing! To summarize, there can be underlying pathology, difficulty, or weakness which allows for the will to be fractured (not at one), or twisted (let's say by underlying rage). Qigong can be a catalyst which exposes Intent as unified or fractured or twisted within very different kinds of inner psychological situations, imo.

It is my opinion that MA internal training aims at different levels of martial practice and naturally results in realignment of practical mental/physical/spiritual relationships with self, according to level. Practice will make visible underlying strengths and weaknesses, and everything in between.

I think it is the individual mind involved, and certain beliefs (demons, devils, etc.) which can lead to graphic mental materialization, as well as quality of instruction which need scrutiny as they relate to different kinds of meditative activity.

interesting.

Cody

[ursa major]

Originally posted by friday
i've heard that internal training done incorrectly can cause internal injury as well as affecting the mental state of the practitioner. hallicunations, vomiting, nausea etc.

what are ppls' ideas on this and experience?


Returning to friday's original query and with both feet firmly planted on the ground... I can speak from experience of years Hung-Gar practicing internal training well known to this system.

I have found that internal training practiced incorrectly can most certainly leave the practitioner with any number of ailments. I know of atleast one HG practitioner who damaged his kidneys through inappropriate Iron & Thread training. I know of yet another HG practitioner who now suffers from various stomach hernias the result of improper internal training.

I have concluded many years ago that it is possible to do more damage than good with-regard-to internal training and is not a task to be taken lightly. Regarding internal training and injuries, if it (training method) does not feel natural doing it then don't. If it does not come easy do not force it. If it cannot be done while simultaneously relaxing the mind and body then stop.

I do not believe internal training can lead to altered mental states that detrimentally affect the practitioner -- unless the practitioner has an existing genetic or psychological pre-disposition towards such mental state.

UM.

[Former castleva]

The problem with such discussion IMO is that we are mixing ancient philosophical,cultural and psychological&even medical terms into actual scientific terms while having little grounding.

And altered mental state myth,conciousness etc. mixed with funky concepts of shen,yi etc. is tricky enough.

"The only strings are those you bring, and those you are unprepared for. "
This sums it up in certain manners.
The person´s own expectations and psychological make-up are a vital thing.
Blowing in the wind and feeling the energies metaphorically is not quite the same as imagining to actually blow the wind back somewhere and contain various energies,metaphorically. :)

As far as purely somatic issues go,I have absolutely no problem but let´s say that the next time I see my psychiatrist I´ll try to remember to ask him whether he has heard of patients with qi-gong origin.

[Cody]

The sentence starting with "Blowing in the wind...." is an interesting one. The two states described seem to move from a passive to an active approach. I read it that way.

Metaphors are for this sort of communication, poetry, beginning. I know you realize that metaphors are no substitute for reality, and that reality is not the same for everyone. What is plain as day can also be dense as a swamp. In practice, the words lose what little significance I think they had.

We operate as functional wholes. Cut down a tree and try to define treeness by a dying leaf, bark, sap circulation. You no longer have a tree. old news.
How can I say this? Do you need to prove that you are living in order to live? No. One might conceptualize attributes of living, if that is what one does, but the life is separate from the conceptualization. and, there can be disagreement, especially when consciousness is added to the soup. that might be considered a degree of funkiness?

What one begins to know from doing, the essence of any art, goes possibly beyond definition, and certainly beyond that to one who is not performing at that level. I am thinking that anything worth knowing in the deeper sense goes way beyond words and is not completely definable at our stage of development.

Cody

[GeneChing]

I love the unique cultural maladies in DSM. I remember there was a Japanese one where people believed that they were turning into foxes. There was also some African one where the men throught that their ***** was going to vanish up into their body. That was DSM III - I dropped out of abnormal psych studies years ago. The qigong one is fascinating.

Anything can make you go nuts. Man, just watching the news makes me go nuts now. If you're dealing with something that is intended to change the essence of your very life force, of course it can effect your mind. Think about it. Mind your mind.

[Cody]

where one is anchored, grounded. how this affects how you adjust to change in energy training, in social relationships, during war. I guess one could view anchoring as a duality. An anchor within (the constancy of who I am), and how that relates to one or more outside anchors (family, for instance).

Cody

[cha kuen]

I asked my chi kung teacher if chi kung or sitting meditation can help a suicidal friend of mine. He said that it won't help and will make things worse because someone with an extreme negative mind will only attract more negative energy with chi kung.

[Cody]

I have also been advised that doing this work when very upset or unsettled is not advisable.

I think it's a matter of building upon what you have within. If the foundation is crumbling, so will the building tilt, crack, fall.

Cody