Kung Fu fight footage [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

BrentCarey

03-02-2003, 11:40 AM

I would reprimand my students for fighting like this clip. I know it is easy to watch a clip and criticize, but how many times to you have to get hit by a consistently placed, timed, and telegraphed right sidekick? Anyway...

In a box somewhere, I have some footage of some special ops training I gave back in the early 90s. It is not competitive, but instead involves full speed attacks with and without weapons, with single and multiple attackers. The attackers are using various styles or lack thereof, but the defenders are using good kung fu.

These are not very entertaining or interesting to watch as each scenario lasts only a few seconds, and it is very difficult to see what is going on - partially due to bad photography, partially due to the fact that it moves really quickly and some of it involves some fairly subtle energy transferrence.

I considered using them for training examples once, but they weren't terribly useful unless you knew exactly what was going on. I can try to dig them up and see if I can find someone to make digital clips out of them.

Incidentally, I somewhat agree with assessment that all styles will pretty much look the same once you adapt them to the ring. I also somewhat disagree. A couple of points:

- A well-rounded artist will tend to modify his/her style to adapt to his/her opponent.

- One of the reasons it is beneficial to practice "conventional" kung fu techniques (circular/curving motions, elaborate footwork, etc.), is that when you are have to pull them out in a challenging environment (self-defnse or competition against someone with approximately the same skill), you can condense the techniques and apply the same principles on a much smaller scale with similar effect. I tell my students, "Big and bold for practice, fast and tight for defense, relaxed for everything."

This second point is often ignored by CMAists. The principle, "high kicks for practice, low kicks for combat", is widely known and accepted. Yet, there are two common mistakes made when a practitioner tries to apply tradition CMA to a full-speed, unrehearsed conflict.

One common mistake is that the practitioner tries to execute techniques per form with full motion. What frequently happens is that the person forgets that he/she can switch up mid-technique since he/she is so focused on executing the full technique. This all takes too long and is too inflexible/adaptive. So, the practitioner get frustrated and soon resorts to mistake #2.

Another common mistake is that the practitioner throws the training out the window. Frequently, they take on a kickboxing-like approach. Before the hate-mail starts, I am not saying that kickboxing is an inferior approach. I am just saying that if you take a kickboxing approach, you should be trained in kickboxing.

Here's the rub. The ability to apply traditional KF in full-speed combat takes a long time to master. Often people begin KF training, abandon it, take up another style (BJJ, kickboxing, etc), and become proficient in the second style. Typically, this takes less time than it would to just become proficient in KF in the first place.

This misleads people into believing that they have to abandon KF training to become proficient in KF. Does this sound familiar? "Well, I was getting my butt kicked when I was in KF, but when I took up [style X] I could finally [do whatever]."

So why would anyone take up KF then, if one could become proficient in another style in half the time? Well, it is difficult to answer that without being named "arrogant", "elitist", or a number of other cop-out labels popular here.

One reason, as I recently mentioned, we do it not despite the fact that it is difficult, but BECAUSE it is difficult. Other reasons (which fall under the "elitist" umbrella) involve depth of technique, longevity of abilities, aesthetics, etc.

Hold your style vs style posts. That's not what this is about. This is an attempt to discuss competitive KF, and why it is difficult to find "good" competitive KF footage. In short, I am asserting that "good" full-speed KF doesn't often look like "good" KF. Once you break techniques down and micro-analyze the motions, you will find good underlying KF principles, but to the specatator, often it just looks like arms and legs flying - particularly if both practitioners are highly skilled. When both practitioners are skilled, techniques are switching up and moving so quickly that each competitor is stretched very thin, and tiny adjustments make or break success.

The clip here in question involves two phenomena I have mentioned here. Perry is doing kickboxing (or similar) - and poorly I might add. He is linear, predictable, and slow. Fortunately for him, his opponent is making a more serious mistake. He is conflicted. He is trying to hold onto his traditional training, yet has not completely resolved how to do so in a competitive environment. Also, he appears intimidated, which doesn't help.

That's my assessment.

-Brent

Royal Dragon

03-02-2003, 12:02 PM

Thanks for the assesment. I think if you look close, you can see the difference in the footwork. The Kick Boxers tend to be up on thier toes and bouce alot. Traditional Kung fu is weigted evenly on the 9 points of the foot. It is more "Sunk in" for lack of a better word. It has great mobility, but if you look close you see the correct stances being performed, even if they are higher up. Power is issued in the Chinese way. A boxer/Kick Boxer moves totally differnent.

I have been searching the site looking for links to good clips. all I can find, are application demos, and forms.

At this point, if I can find GOOD Kung Fu in actual free fighting, even if it's bad photagraphy, I'll use it.

SevenStar

03-02-2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by Kumkuat
Yan Gaofei told me that he has two (I think) guys with no martial arts training. And he wants to train them in taijiquan so they can actually use pure taiji in san shou tournaments. I don't know if they'll do well though. But we shall see.

William CC Chen's son was doing excellent in san shou. His daughter is vicious in push hands.

SevenStar

03-02-2003, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
He'd be better of fighting them in Kuo Shou. The open finger gloves would allow more Taijiness to be used.

Also, I am not looking for "Pretty", I am looking for fundemental accuracy. I want to see common footwork, rooting, sinking and authentic useage. I'm not looking for a modern Whu Shu form being used in the ring.

So far, everything I have seen uses Western Boxing footwork, or modern San Shou.

I was hoping to find some Kuo Shou clips by now. Or even some Shui Chiao clips.

boxing footwork probably works better in the ring. Also - talk to WD. My last post was about Chen's son fighting in san shou - WD's got a tape of it.

Royal Dragon

03-02-2003, 02:58 PM

So WD, can you digitze that film? If so, can you E-mail it to me? Or at least some fight footage about 2 minutes in length?

I have to get my sound and video card, so I can do this stuff.

SevenStar

03-02-2003, 03:01 PM

Originally posted by BrentCarey
I would reprimand my students for fighting like this clip. I know it is easy to watch a clip and criticize, but how many times to you have to get hit by a consistently placed, timed, and telegraphed right sidekick? Anyway...

that sidekick is his trademark attack. He nails person after person with it.

- One of the reasons it is beneficial to practice "conventional" kung fu techniques (circular/curving motions, elaborate footwork, etc.), is that when you are have to pull them out in a challenging environment (self-defnse or competition against someone with approximately the same skill), you can condense the techniques and apply the same principles on a much smaller scale with similar effect. I tell my students, "Big and bold for practice, fast and tight for defense, relaxed for everything."

This second point is often ignored by CMAists. The principle, "high kicks for practice, low kicks for combat", is widely known and accepted. Yet, there are two common mistakes made when a practitioner tries to apply tradition CMA to a full-speed, unrehearsed conflict.

One common mistake is that the practitioner tries to execute techniques per form with full motion. What frequently happens is that the person forgets that he/she can switch up mid-technique since he/she is so focused on executing the full technique. This all takes too long and is too inflexible/adaptive. So, the practitioner get frustrated and soon resorts to mistake #2.

Another common mistake is that the practitioner throws the training out the window. Frequently, they take on a kickboxing-like approach. Before the hate-mail starts, I am not saying that kickboxing is an inferior approach. I am just saying that if you take a kickboxing approach, you should be trained in kickboxing.

If that happens, I would say that's more of a training issue than anything. Either that person wasn't trained right, or that person hasn't trained long enough. However, the "big and bold in practice, small and tight in self defense" thing can be quite confusing to someone who only has class experience. When he gets into an altercation, he's going to react how he's trained - he's going to use big and bold movements.

Here's the rub. The ability to apply traditional KF in full-speed combat takes a long time to master. Often people begin KF training, abandon it, take up another style (BJJ, kickboxing, etc), and become proficient in the second style. Typically, this takes less time than it would to just become proficient in KF in the first place.

This misleads people into believing that they have to abandon KF training to become proficient in KF. Does this sound familiar? "Well, I was getting my butt kicked when I was in KF, but when I took up [style X] I could finally [do whatever]."

That's the thing that always gets me... yes it takes longer by design, but should it? If I've only been training for 6 months and have to defend myself, I want to be confident that I can defend myself. I'm willing to bet that CMA training could be modified so that a person could learn how to fight in a shorter time.

One reason, as I recently mentioned, we do it not despite the fact that it is difficult, but BECAUSE it is difficult. Other reasons (which fall under the "elitist" umbrella) involve depth of technique, longevity of abilities, aesthetics, etc.

I dunno... I know several CMA that would jump ship after a few weeks of muay thai where I was taking it. sport fighters get into the arts they get into BECAUSE they're difficult. compare the avg sport fighter's regimen with the avg "traditional" regimen. As for KF including "involved depth of technique, longevity of abilities, aesthetics, etc.", that sounds like grappling to me. the technique is VERY in depth, and possibilities are endless. My judo coach is 73 and I can't beat him when I try my hardest - there's plenty of longevity of ability as long as you train right. And aesthetically, watching a great technical move while grappling is so aesthetic it can be just plain pretty. If you don't know what you're looking at though, of course it wouldn't.

Hold your style vs style posts. That's not what this is about. This is an attempt to discuss competitive KF, and why it is difficult to find "good" competitive KF footage. In short, I am asserting that "good" full-speed KF doesn't often look like "good" KF.

Agreed.

Once you break techniques down and micro-analyze the motions, you will find good underlying KF principles, but to the specatator, often it just looks like arms and legs flying - particularly if both practitioners are highly skilled. When both practitioners are skilled, techniques are switching up and moving so quickly that each competitor is stretched very thin, and tiny adjustments make or break success.

Once again, sounds like grappling.

The clip here in question involves two phenomena I have mentioned here. Perry is doing kickboxing (or similar) - and poorly I might add. He is linear, predictable, and slow.

And he's held several championship titles....he's doing something right.

Royal Dragon

03-02-2003, 03:17 PM

That's the thing that always gets me... yes it takes longer by design, but should it? If I've only been training for 6 months and have to defend myself, I want to be confident that I can defend myself. I'm willing to bet that CMA training could be modified so that a person could learn how to fight in a shorter time.

Reply]
The Northern Tai tzu is like this. It takes a long time to build the foundation to really fight well wiht it. that's why the Southern system wa developed. it's short, Kwick and easy to learn. PLUS, it starts building fundementals that are foundational for the Northern tai tzu. You can learn the entire Southern system in about 3 months. In 3 years, you should be prettty darn close to mastering it if you train full time. I don't see any reason why you couldn't master it in 6 on the parttime after work program (Max 4 hours @ 5 days)

The Northern, is much more sophistcated. You can get much further with it than you can the Southern, but it takes longer to get it working reliably. Training full time, it's going to take 10 years to fully master it. On a parttime after work scedual where you put in a max of 3-4 hours 5 days a week, your looking at more like 20.

That is why many tai tzu schools teach the Southern first, and THEN the Northern.

Rolling Elbow

03-02-2003, 04:50 PM

SevenStar

03-02-2003, 05:37 PM

That's a BIG difference. What all does the northern have that the southen doesn't?

Royal Dragon

03-02-2003, 06:44 PM

That's a BIG difference. What all does the northern have that the southen doesn't?

Reply]
Everything. The Southern is a super sweet quick easy to learn get you fighting RIGHT NOW!!! kind of a system. It has 6 rediculosly short forms that are really more like hand & footwork drills than forms. It's primary function is to develop the basic structure, mechanics, footwork and a simple effective no nonsense fighting stratigy. Generally, it's a primer for the Monkey, and the main form Yi Lu is some what Monkey like. I don't see how anyone can't get really good at it in 3 years.

Footwork is basic forward and backward shuffle, there is a basic turn that allows you to side step out and cut back in, and some leap back escapeing kind'a footwork (Identical to some of the Kuntao Myong taught me). It uses basic block and punches, almost Karate like, and some simple traps, locks, grab escapes and throws. The whole system is about as caveman simple as it gets (for a Chinese art that is). The main technique in the first form is kind of like a "grab thier head and whallop'em one" type of thing. It's totally brutish.

The Northern is much more extensive with about a dozen medium to long forms in the core system, and maybe as much as 70 all together if you combine various lineages into one. Some systems have 300+ move forms in them. Most of mine are 32-72, and I have one or two that are as much as 150-200. I have only learned one Northern form called Yi Lu which is about 70-80 moves long, the rest are documented only.

The style contains about every kind of functional Long Fist technique there is, and very little flash. That's what I like about the old Long fist styles, they are very functional. Tai tzu was developed by an Emperor that conquered five warring states and united them into a single dynasty. His attitude of function over form is still paramount in the style today.

Kumkuat

03-02-2003, 07:02 PM

What's the difference between Kuo Shou and San Shou? What's Lei Tai? Did Chen's son look like he was doing taiji? At least being relaxed, sinking, sticking, etc.,?

Royal Dragon

03-02-2003, 09:15 PM

Kuo Shu I think has a bit better format than San Shou. It allows open finger gloves for example.

A Letai is the traditional rasied platform that the fight takes place on.

Check out this Kuo Shuo page for more info

http://www.hsing-i.com/school_awards/index.html

SevenStar

03-02-2003, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by Kumkuat
What's the difference between Kuo Shou and San Shou? What's Lei Tai? Did Chen's son look like he was doing taiji? At least being relaxed, sinking, sticking, etc.,?

he was relaxed and sinking. I haven't seen the tape in about a year though.... WD can tell you more about it.

jon

03-03-2003, 12:30 AM

RD
I found this a little while ago, not exactly full force but enough to give an idea of how Bagua can be used in combat.

http://www.energyarts.com./hires/bagua/fighting/fightmov.html

Fred Sanford

03-03-2003, 03:49 AM

more sophisticated is not necessarily better. when you get that adrenaline dump you experience a loss of fine motor control.

I'd take simple and effective over more sophisticated the vast majority of the time.

Liokault

03-03-2003, 04:25 AM

I don't think Perry has any footwork at all.. he's got a side kick and a long leg....... BORING. The albert pope character exhibited more variety and finesse. I would consider Pope to be more of a rounded fighter.

LOL you are so wrong.

Go look at more Marvin Perry fights (there are lots on the internet). He has an impresively wide range of technique and really outstanding ability. His take downs are really very good,but I can not coment on his clinch work as he tends to put his oponent down as soon as they get close totaly missing the clinch phase.

He may or may not have good foot work but you need to remember that foot work is a transitionsl thing - just a means to an end and I feel that Perrys foot work is just to fast and well developed for u to see it.

Royal Dragon

03-03-2003, 05:46 AM

Hi,
Yes that Bagua clip is more what I'm looking for. Notice the smooth footwork, the lack of bouncinng on his toes, the sinking? The Bagua fighter didn't use deep stances, but he also didn't look like a kick boxer. THAT is Kung Fu. I have always liked Bagua. I dabbbled a little bit in it years ago, and I would someday like to return to it. I don't think there is anyone close to me that really knows it though.

You notice how after the throw, the Bagua guy is repeatedly right there with his foot about to stomp the attackers head? See, this is a point I have been trying to make in the past about Kung Fu. Our ground fighting IS too brutal for the ring. In real life the attacker would have gotten his face smashed in wile he was still happlessly rolling on the ground. I don't think your even allowed to do that in the UFC. Heck, at one point, it looks like the Bagua guy lost his balance a bit because he was trying to miss stomping on his head for safety's sake. It's actually harder to miss, that it is to actually go through and crush his head. I could just Imagine what those Baji guys would do if in that position, with all the foot stomping they do in training and all.

Anyway, if that had been in an actual Kuo Shuo fight, it would be perfect. Unfortunetly, the running from one end of the floor thing telagraphs too much, and sort of negates what I'm trying to do. Which is show real Kung Fu in real action, against a real competitive, resisting oppnenet, where it does not resort to the bouncy, bouncy up on your toes modern boxing/kick boxing footwork.

Losttrak

03-03-2003, 08:06 AM

Heya if you look behind Mr Estioko at the guy in the pink shirt (required to assist in the competition)... thats me! I was one of the cornermen for that side... One of the biggest complaints about that fight was the mat. Someone had glossed/shalacked over the canvas to preserve the artwork and as a result it became VERY slick. It wasnt until deep into the show that they finally got some resin to put on the bottom of SOME (the Cung Li team didnt share the resin with the Jason Yee team lol) fighters feet. So as a result people were ice-skating out there as you saw in the fight mentioned above. Any footwork requiring copious amounts of traction would have ended up with you on your ass. Keep that in mind as you comment on the fight.

Royal Dragon

03-03-2003, 08:12 AM

He he he, now we know what you look like :p

Knifefighter

03-03-2003, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
I want to see stuff like I have seen live. Then, I want to put it up on my site so every one can enjoy it

Why not video the stuff you see live and put it up?

Suntzu

03-03-2003, 08:38 AM

whoa!!! Marvin Perry, BORING… dude must not get out much or watches too many Jet Li movies… and lets not forget Perry is gigantic big while Pope is about 145lbs… so ofcourse… Pope is gonna have more freedom to move and be quicker in the ring…

Our ground fighting IS too brutal for the ring. but at the same time its not like it cant be adjusted… I didn't see the Bugua clip but you sadi it looked like the dude lost his balance trying not to stomp on the guy's head… that COULD be adjusted to have hm just fall on top of his opponent… KF has a chice as to either be "deadly" or not... look at judo vs. jujitsu...

Yes that Bagua clip is more what I'm looking for. Notice the smooth footwork, the lack of bouncinng on his toes, the sinking? The Bagua fighter didn't use deep stances, but he also didn't look like a kick boxer. THAT is Kung Fu. is that clip a demo or a 'live' situation???
Chen's son Max is a monster…

Knifefighter

03-03-2003, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Hi,
Yes that Bagua clip is more what I'm looking for. Notice the smooth footwork, the lack of bouncinng on his toes, the sinking? The Bagua fighter didn't use deep stances, but he also didn't look like a kick boxer. THAT is Kung Fu.

You notice how after the throw, the Bagua guy is repeatedly right there with his foot about to stomp the attackers head? See, this is a point I have been trying to make in the past about Kung Fu. Our ground fighting IS too brutal for the ring. In real life the attacker would have gotten his face smashed in wile he was still happlessly rolling on the ground.

Anyway, if that had been in an actual Kuo Shuo fight, it would be perfect.

It wasn't a fight. It was the guy and his student helping him to look good for demonstration purposes. That's the reason it looked the way it did.

In real-life, a trained groundfighter (or most anyone for that matter) would not be be "happlessly rolling on the ground" like that. He would more likely be slapping on a heel hook.

Nick Monticello

03-03-2003, 09:05 AM

How's he going to do that? his foot was smashing his head almsot as fast as he landed. The only reason it was go'n THAT slow was because it was a demo. If it had been real, the guy would have been KO'd before he would have time to "Hook" as you say.

ShaolinTiger00

03-03-2003, 09:13 AM

Please don't offend Marvin by calling him kung fu. Marvin is a san shou and muay thai fighter.

Royal Dragon, Bret = some of the most clueless "martial" people I've ever witnessed.

Suntzu

03-03-2003, 09:16 AM

:rolleyes: yeah… you're right techniques cant be adjusted to be made more safe… so there's a bunch of Bugua training partners lying in a pile stomped out b'cuz of practicing deadly techniques
:rolleyes:

ShaolinTiger00

03-03-2003, 09:20 AM

SunTzu,

How did you do at the Arnold's?

:)

Water Dragon

03-03-2003, 09:20 AM

R.D.
I caught this one kind of late. Yes, I have some "non-public" footage you can come by and watch some time if you want. Sorry, you can't tape it.

I do have some footage of myself doing Shuai Chiao demos that you can put on the net if you have the equipment. This is also "non-public" so you can't have everything. But I had a good run where I chucked Lil Joe about 3-4 times that you can digitize.

Suntzu

03-03-2003, 09:25 AM

ST… dude… we didn't even go… some of us were nursing some injuries… u don’t know how heated I am about that… bad decisions… u know… but its along journey… next year… and I really really wanted to hang out with all the fitness chicks :mad:

Crimson Phoenix

03-03-2003, 09:35 AM

I think that the guy playing the opponent against BKF was Sam Masisch (sp?)...so yes, indeed, he is not a trained ground fighter, but I do not think he is a student either...
If I heard well (my sound was bad), he was the winner of the tournament that year, and was asked to go against him...
Sure, the attacks were kind of telegraphed and obviously a little pulled back, nevertheless I think BKF did a very good job with his stuff...

Royal Dragon

03-03-2003, 09:35 AM

WD, Yeah, I'd like to see it. I don't know how I'd digitize it though. I still have to buy the card for that though. I have some other priorities right now, but as soon as I get it, I'll come down, we can roll, and then chill with the VCR and something good to drink afterwards. :D

Liokault

03-03-2003, 09:59 AM

Please don't offend Marvin by calling him kung fu. Marvin is a san shou and muay thai fighter.

I said somthing along the same lines mid last year and had it pointed out to me that I was wrong.

Marvin Perry is a kung fu guy who has done well in thai boxing then turned to san shou.

ShaolinTiger00

03-03-2003, 10:06 AM

Marvin Perry is a kung fu guy who has done well in thai boxing then turned to san shou.

This statements lacks a molecule of truth.

Marvin was a kungfu guy who got bored to death because he wasn't fighting anything but air, was led to Sanshou by his buddy Al Loriaux and was hooked ever since and has then added muay thai fighting to his ring credentials.

Where do you guys get your facts? The same place you got that kungfu was effective I'm guessing..

Marvin's autobiography (http://marvinperry.org/autobiography-frame2.htm)

Liokault

03-03-2003, 10:41 AM

Where do you guys get your facts? The same place you got that kungfu was effective I'm guessing..

Well in that biog i see not 1 mention of the term thi boxing.

As for where i get my facts:

Last year I made a statment that M Perry was a kick boxer/thi boxer who is doing well in san shou.

I was corrected by a guy who trains with (or trains MP I forget....was it Sanshouguru?). Who pointed out to me that MPs back ground is in kung fu and that he never trained in Thai Boxing but did compete and do well.

So you could say that I get my information from the horses mouth. He also pointed out that Marvin Perry comes to browse this forum now and again.

Do a search....its all there.

SanShou Guru

03-03-2003, 12:01 PM

ST is correct and I think he meant what Liokault said about his MT training. We train him for MT fights the same way we train him for Sanda fights, I just remind him when he picks me up over his head that he cannot do that in a MT fight, just the sweeps and simple throws.

I think ST has only been wrong about a San Shou fact a few times and then only slightly. From what I know about the facts.

As to Marvin's movement ability;
He is a little clumsy in his day to day life sometimes but when he is fighting can stand like a mountain, disappear like a ghost, strike like a viper. He is a Super heavy weight in weight and power with the speed of a light weight. He is not always the most exciting fighter but when the average match has lasted about 90 seconds there is not much time to see the art of his movement.

As to people making the old "NHB guys are tougher" claim I will say this; Marvin would never presume he could beat an NHB guy at their rules but any NHB guy who want to challenge Marvin at Sanda or MT rules is more than welcome to.

Make no claims about another style until you have fought and won at that style I always say.

Knifefighter

03-03-2003, 12:02 PM

People who expect that, and train as if, real fighting will be like that clip are perfect examples of why some people train for years only to find that they can't make their stuff work when the excrement hits the air circulation device.

Suntzu

03-03-2003, 12:12 PM

but any NHB guy who want to challenge Marvin at Sanda or MT rules is more than welcome to. I'd pay to see that….

BrentCarey

03-03-2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
I think if you look close, you can see the difference in the footwork. [...] It is more "Sunk in" for lack of a better word. It has great mobility, but if you look close you see the correct stances being performed, even if they are higher up. Power is issued in the Chinese way. A boxer/Kick Boxer moves totally differnent.
No, I agree. There are definitely some good underlying KF principles - whether he got that from KF training or not. This reinforces my point about KF techniques being "tightened up" for combat. You can see the principles, but they are not as big and bold as one might see in traditional KF practice.

I was referring more to his tactical approach than specific techniques when comparing him to a kickboxer.

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
At this point, if I can find GOOD Kung Fu in actual free fighting, even if it's bad photagraphy, I'll use it.
I'll see what I can do.

-B

Xebsball

03-03-2003, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon

You notice how after the throw, the Bagua guy is repeatedly right there with his foot about to stomp the attackers head? See, this is a point I have been trying to make in the past about Kung Fu. Our ground fighting IS too brutal for the ring. In real life the attacker would have gotten his face smashed in wile he was still happlessly rolling on the ground. I don't think your even allowed to do that in the UFC. Heck, at one point, it looks like the Bagua guy lost his balance a bit because he was trying to miss stomping on his head for safety's sake. It's actually harder to miss, that it is to actually go through and crush his head. I could just Imagine what those Baji guys would do if in that position, with all the foot stomping they do in training and all.

The stomping is used by the Chute Boxe guys (wich are MT academy adapted to mma competition). Wanderlei Silva and Murilo Ninja ive seen using it pretty good on Pride, probably other fighters too.

ShaolinTiger00

03-03-2003, 12:30 PM

I think ST has only been wrong about a San Shou fact a few times and then only slightly.

Thank you Guru. I'd like to think that I am a credible san shou & grappling resource.

btw: How did the Boston team do @ the Arnolds?

SanShou Guru

03-03-2003, 12:33 PM

6-1, Five Golds, 3 in Women's A and two in Men's B. Albert Pope won his super fight against Jose Palacious from Cung's.

ShaolinTiger00

03-03-2003, 12:37 PM

Great job! Congrats.

Pope is a great fighter. Just amazingly well-rounded, smart and great at clean throwing techniques.

Merryprankster

03-03-2003, 12:46 PM

I find it interesting that all the guys with a fight or two under their belts have similar comments.

SanShou Guru

03-03-2003, 12:49 PM

Well I have a fight or 32 so I guess you don't mean me.

Suntzu

03-03-2003, 12:50 PM

Any video????

Merryprankster

03-03-2003, 12:51 PM

San Shou + BJJ = Next Generation of MMA fighters. It's only a matter of time.

SanShou Guru

03-03-2003, 12:52 PM

I have most of it and will get the rest soon Sun. I'll send a copy to Julio.

You may be right MarryP.

norther practitioner

03-03-2003, 01:01 PM

I've been thinking that too for some time MP. The only thing to add might be the Thai elbows and knees.

Xebsball

03-03-2003, 01:03 PM

Chute Boxe beats Sanshou + bjj ALL THE TIME

ShaolinTiger00

03-03-2003, 01:04 PM

The only thing to add might be the Thai elbows and knees.

San Da has those as well. As Guru has mentioned prior, Amateurs in the "A" class san shou use knees.

Suntzu

03-03-2003, 01:08 PM

Good stuff GURU…

Chute Boxe beats Sanshou + bjj ALL THE TIME thats some good flag wavin' right there...

SanShou Guru

03-03-2003, 01:09 PM

Actually ST in this event knee were only allowed in the super fights. IWF still does not allow knees from what I know so that is the rules we were using.

norther practitioner

03-03-2003, 01:09 PM

Oh, didn't realize this, thanks ST00

ShaolinTiger00

03-03-2003, 01:11 PM

Chute Boxe beats Sanshou + bjj ALL THE TIME

A lie. The two have never crossed paths in a ring event. When will Xingyi be making an appearance vs. either Xebs? I'd pay for comedy like that.

Chute box IS san da (anything goes standup)+ bjj.

Since I'm in a mood to rant vs. xebs and other traditinal morons I'd like to point out something that I find most ironic and amusing.

Grapplers are able to keep a fight standing up much better than traditional strikers can.

Xebsball

03-03-2003, 01:14 PM

Chute Boxe is so sweet i want to crap my pants, its SUPER MUY THAI SUPERIOR TO SHOW-SHOU

ShaolinTiger00

03-03-2003, 01:16 PM

NP - No problem. I always enjoy talking to people who speak on fact based evidence and can readily admit when they have made an error or can see that another person's views have truth that cannot be disputed.

It shows self confidence and mutual respect.

The pleasure was mine.

Royal Dragon

03-03-2003, 01:20 PM

So, are there any digized video clips ANYWHERE on the net that show Kuo Shuo fighting, or actual Kung Fu being used anywhere?

ShaolinTiger00

03-03-2003, 01:42 PM

Where is that clip of the windmill punching kung fu masters?

Or kung fu guy vs. John Marsh, or WingTsun masters "attack" , wing chun vs. Kyukoshin karate, or every other piece of evidence that is the polar opposite of what you can't prove.

examples of kung fu being used.

Nick Monticello

03-03-2003, 01:47 PM

Those fights were crap. Out of thousands of Kung Fu fights, in and out of competiton, and thousands, if not 10's of thusands of Kung Fu practioners, you MMA guys manage to find the 3 that represent total CRAP for talent.

Pleeeeeeease, your making me laugh!

Suntzu

03-03-2003, 01:51 PM

Nick Monticello

03-03-2003, 01:54 PM

Thise MMA guys went on a search and destroy mission till they found something as awefull as possible, then THEY digitised it for the web to prove thier pathetic little points.

I wonder how many Mcdojo hours they burned rejecting good Kung Fu fight footage till they found stuff crappy enough to make them look good?

ShaolinTiger00

03-03-2003, 02:02 PM

yet RD cant find 1 clip...

Exactly.

kungfu, krate, tkd are so much HUGER and so much more popular than MMA, yet can't find a single clip, not one, not even against a street punk.

hmmm..

If you find one, please let us know. I'd gladly eat my words If I saw a clip of "kung fu guy beat up a MMA".

Shooter

03-03-2003, 02:04 PM

I've got lots of footage of the people from my Tai Chi school competing in MMA. But since we're not really practicing Tai Chi Chuan, even though that's all my training partners were trained in...:p

Water Dragon

03-03-2003, 02:04 PM

Grabs a corona and sits back in the LA-Z-Boy.

Anyone want some popcorn?

Suntzu

03-03-2003, 02:05 PM

fah real… I'm not even one to bash KF like that… but dude u(YOU) are trippin… even without spaeking on those carny azz clips… people that train to fight(no matter what kinda name u wanna call it)… they have evidence to support their claims… u wanna know if Muay thai trained fighters can fight... look it up... u will find examples... wanna know if someone trained in BJJ can choke people out... look it up... u will find that too... wanna know if a tai chi master's son can throw down... look at max chen... wanna know if a kung fu dude can beef and look just like it supposed to look in the form or whatever.... well... were still waiting.... he\\ i like KF... i dont have nothing against it... i like girls flippin around in pink pjs...

Royal Dragon

03-03-2003, 02:06 PM

Hey, if it's really showing the Taiji principlas in live action, especially if your stoping down some MMA guys, I want it for my site.

royaldragon@netzero.net

BrentCarey

03-03-2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by SevenStar
that sidekick is his trademark attack. He nails person after person with it.
I know, but it's a mystery to me. It is just not that fast - powerful, I'm sure, but telegraphed a day in advance. At one point in this clip, the opponent gets ahold of the kick, but then lets go of it. As I mentioned, it is easy to criticize from an arm chair, but this seems like a big hole in Perry's game.

Originally posted by SevenStar
However, the "big and bold in practice, small and tight in self defense" thing can be quite confusing to someone who only has class experience. When he gets into an altercation, he's going to react how he's trained - he's going to use big and bold movements.
That is a pretty common reasoning error made by people with limited experience. (Not saying you necessarily lack experience, just that it is a common mistake.) When you first learn a technique, do you practice it full-speed from the beginning? No, you practice it slowly at first so you can see what is supposed to be happening. Gradually, as you build up an understanding, you increase the speed to combat speed. As you speed up, and your opponent speeds up and resists, you find that you have to modify the technique slightly, but the underlying principles remain the same.

When you practice "big and bold", this is an exercise - a means to an end. When you move past this, your techiques are faster, deeper, more powerful, and more effective. To use an analogy, it is somewhat like running 5-10 miles a day to improve your 100-yard dash.

Originally posted by SevenStar
That's the thing that always gets me... yes it takes longer by design, but should it? If I've only been training for 6 months and have to defend myself, I want to be confident that I can defend myself. I'm willing to bet that CMA training could be modified so that a person could learn how to fight in a shorter time.
Yes, it should, but no, it doesn't have to. As I've mentioned before, this is what I did when I trained special ops and law enforcement. I distilled a few techniques that didn't require a lot of explanation or practice, and taught them in a few 4-hour blocks.

Yes, it worked. The students became basically proficient. This is mostly because a) they were all physically fit, b) they had mostly assertive personalities, and c) they had gained considerable confidence because they could see that the techniques worked. With fitness, assertiveness, and confidence, the specific techniques were not so relevant.

However, these students were not proficient in kung fu - they just knew how to do a few techniques well and were encouraged to express a certain mindset. Yes, I can train someone to defend themselves fairly well in 6 months, but they would not progress very far because the foundation would not be established.

I find my instruction being a compromise between establishing a long-term plan with a firm foundation, and giving students techniques and principles that are immediately useful. For the first couple of years, I spend a fair amount of effort just reminding students that while they may "think" they have it down, they still cannot pull it off in the real world. This prevents people from becoming complacent with their training. The only trick then is illustrating how all of this foundation work will pay off in the long run. That typically involves walking a fine line. However, students always understand after the fact.

Originally posted by SevenStar
I dunno... I know several CMA that would jump ship after a few weeks of muay thai where I was taking it. sport fighters get into the arts they get into BECAUSE they're difficult. compare the avg sport fighter's regimen with the avg "traditional" regimen.
I can't speak for the CMA community in whole. I occasionally here reference to "fairweather" CMA practitioners who are in it for the "gentle exercise", as long as it's not too hard. I don't know where these people are. They aren't in my school, and I don't run into them outside of the taiji crowd.

(My apologies to the taiji crowd. I respect taiji and do not wish to make generalizations, but we all know that taiji's popularity has attracted some people that don't help its reputation as being just a relaxation exercise.)

Originally posted by SevenStar
As for KF including "involved depth of technique, longevity of abilities, aesthetics, etc.", that sounds like grappling to me. the technique is VERY in depth, and possibilities are endless. My judo coach is 73 and I can't beat him when I try my hardest - there's plenty of longevity of ability as long as you train right. And aesthetically, watching a great technical move while grappling is so aesthetic it can be just plain pretty. If you don't know what you're looking at though, of course it wouldn't.
I thought we were holding style vs style posts. Who said anything about grappling? I am not claiming KF superiority in any of the aforementioned traits. I am just saying that these traits enter into the equation for many people. Please, let's avoid aesthetical comparisons. My point with reference to aesthetics was simply that the look and feel of KF attracts many practitioners.

Besides, while it would be substantial to compare, say Wing Chun with say BJJ, it is meaningless to compare KF with grappling. Good kung fu includes grappling. Granted, KF is generally grappling-deficient, but this is more of a training point than a style point.

Originally posted by SevenStar
"Once you break techniques down and micro-analyze the motions, you will find good underlying KF principles, but to the specatator, often it just looks like arms and legs flying - particularly if both practitioners are highly skilled. When both practitioners are skilled, techniques are switching up and moving so quickly that each competitor is stretched very thin, and tiny adjustments make or break success."
Once again, sounds like grappling.
Once again, who mentioned anything about grappling?

Originally posted by SevenStar
And he's held several championship titles....he's doing something right.
I am only commenting on the one clip I saw. In that clip, his game definitely has some flaws. The efficacy of his repeated side kicks is only reinforcement of the assertion that efficacy in the ring does not equate to efficacy in the real world. An attacker would throw caution to the wind and muscle that leg to the ground - probably taking a few shots on the way, but ultimately taking him down. In the ring, opponents are typically more cautious than that. In this clip, Perry's opponent gets ahold of the leg for quite a while, but doesn't do anything with it. There must be a rule against taking someone down at the knee because he was set up to do it, and it looked like it occurred to him but then he refrained.

-B

Royal Dragon

03-03-2003, 02:12 PM

Suntzu

I have been to Kuo Shou fights in Chicago, and I have seen alot of real talent. Guys that actually DO fight with the footwork, techniques and principals of thier arts. I just never thought to film it before. If I had, I'd get the footage digitised, and put that up.

Suntzu

03-03-2003, 02:23 PM

I've been to Kuo Shu fights too… hopefully I'll be fighting in one this summer… it should be fun… I cant comment on the footwork thing… b'cuz really… to me… its not that big a deal how u move… I was just a lil heated by the MMA conspiracy theory… I know some bad azz TMA guys... he||... i converted one of them to the dark side and now he's a helified fighter...

BrentCarey

03-03-2003, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Bret = some of the most clueless "martial" people I've ever witnessed.

Assuming you were talking about me, and considering the source, I wear the title proudly.

Do your homework before spouting off.

Shooter

03-03-2003, 02:25 PM

It's fairly well known on this forum that my school has fielded players in the public MMA arena for years. To my knowledge, Northern Lights Tai Chi is the only school which has that distinction. Isn't it funny how everyone around here selectively forgets that fact though? :cool:

dezhen2001

03-03-2003, 02:27 PM

its all Tai Chi :D

dawood

Fred Sanford

03-03-2003, 02:27 PM

To my knowledge, Northern Lights Tai Chi is the only school which has that distinction

that's because you guys are totally sweet.

dezhen2001

03-03-2003, 02:34 PM

get it right - its NINJAS that are totally sweet and flip out kill people :cool::D if youre newer to the boards u may not get the reference)

dawood

Shooter

03-03-2003, 02:36 PM

Besides, RD, you, and most everyone else here wouldn't have a clue how the principles apply in that format. You wouldn't know what you're looking at because you've never trained the principles the way we do. Not a slam on you...that's just the way it is.

hey, dez... :D

dezhen2001

03-03-2003, 02:38 PM

Hey shooter - if you are online long i may see ya in a bit :D
stay cool :cool:

dawood

Royal Dragon

03-03-2003, 02:41 PM

Hey Shooter, you wouldn't have any footage of you guys already digitized, would you?

FatherDog

03-03-2003, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Merryprankster
San Shou + BJJ = Next Generation of MMA fighters. It's only a matter of time.

I'd love to see Mr. Perry train some form of grappling art for a while and do a few fights in Pride or the UFC. It doesn't seem like he's interested, though, from what I've read. SSG would obviously know his thoughts better than I, though; has Perry ever considered fighting NHB? If he came in and defeated a few well-known guys, it would bring San Shou some well-deserved recognition.

Originally posted by BrentCarey
That is a pretty common reasoning error made by people with limited experience. (Not saying you necessarily lack experience, just that it is a common mistake.) When you first learn a technique, do you practice it full-speed from the beginning? No, you practice it slowly at first so you can see what is supposed to be happening.

I don't think anything was said about speed; what was being referred to was the "bigness and boldness" of the movements.

When I first learn a technique, I do it slowly, yes, but I do it exactly the way I am going to try to apply it. My practice jab looks a lot slower than the one pro-boxers use, but it's still obviously a jab.

To use an analogy, it is somewhat like running 5-10 miles a day to improve your 100-yard dash.

...except that, as any conditioning coach will tell you, this doesn't work. Training for distance does not make you a better sprinter, and vice versa.

Originally posted by Shooter
It's fairly well known on this forum that my school has fielded players in the public MMA arena for years. To my knowledge, Northern Lights Tai Chi is the only school which has that distinction. Isn't it funny how everyone around here selectively forgets that fact though?

I remember, but it doesn't come up much, since I try to stay out of "what's really effective?" threads :D Do you have any sort of web presence? I'd be interested in knowing what events you folks are competing in, and attending any that are near enough; I always find it interesting to see new and different things being done in the ring.

...of course, since it's all Tai Chi, I guess it's not really new, is it? ;)

SifuAbel

03-03-2003, 03:09 PM

What's funny to me is how people like St00 (http://home.earthlink.net/~drhchan/STGorgeoussmall.JPG) are mixing San Shou and san da into the MMA fray.

San shou and San da ARE the venues CMA people train toward. They were CREATED by CMA practitioners as a venue for themselves. Why even have a chinese name if its not so? For ST to belitte kung fu in one breath and claim to be CMA in another and then back is dizzying. Lets see one of YOUR matches, Not just Cung le.
BTW, St, to start attacking someone personally as a responce to a discussion shows your defeat mentally. :rolleyes:. Brent didn't attack you first. Personal attacks in responce to personal attacks are different.

Shooter,

Not to agure with you, but DIGITIZE them and lets see what you got. How does it help anything to talk but not show. If you got it, show it. I know its expensive to digitize video. But if you got it on digital it should be easier.

I get what Rd is saying. Alot of the clips from san shou show two guys standing completely erect with thier feet side by side like they're waiting for a bus, its not even a good boxing stance. On the other hand, I think what he wants is somewhere out there. The kung fu in a fast moving fight is too subtle to see blatently. Some large obvious moves might show up, but to see the priciples you need to slow down the film.

I haven't seen any MMA in a steetfight clips. So someone please post it. I'd to know who has a scribe following them around with a digital video camera.

Shooter

03-03-2003, 03:13 PM

RD, no.

FatherDog, nothing new under the sun...

ShaolinTiger00

03-03-2003, 03:14 PM

From a lkfmdc post monthsd ago:

Cung Le's student James Franshier fights in King of the Cage, last two times he won (don't know how many total fights he has had) without even having to go to the ground.

Houston's Mike Altman has fought MMA and is undefeated in that format

Current national amateur champion Adam Resnick is 3-0 (2 KO) in shoot fights

3 members of Brazil's national san shou team fought three BJJ guys in 98 or 99 and all won with KO's

The Russian guy who beat Cung in the worlds in 1999 is so far undefeated in MMA in Japan...

San shou is already making its way into MMA.

Would LennoX Lewis suddenly change sports to wrestling, just because he's a good athlete? Marvin is making a career with kickboxing and will be wise to continue on that path. He has a future in K-1 and k-1 S-cup, muay thai fights, possible pro sanda matches.

Why start on the bottom of another totem pole when you're already doing great on your own?

SanShou Guru

03-03-2003, 03:14 PM

BreantCary

I assume the only Clip you saw of Marvin was the 1997 PPV fight. Watch the rest of the clips then come back and talk about his speed and how easy it is to grab his leg and throw him. In his last fight he threw a round kick that broke his opponets arm so I would say he is not just a side kicker.

Marvin currently has no plans to fight MMA style fights and we do not train any ground fighting. If he decided to do MMA I would send hin to a good MMA school I know in eastern Mass to learn the game.

ShaolinTiger00

03-03-2003, 03:27 PM

Abel - Love how you pull your prized photoshop out at every chance you get. You're so clever.. so witty... no wait... I'm thinking of someone else..

San shou and San da ARE the venues CMA people train toward. They were CREATED by CMA practitioners as a venue for themselves. Why even have a chinese name if its not so?

While San shou/ san da is a CMA it is not a TCMA. Never was and never will be. Suck on some chi balls compay..

Bottom line : When there are san shou schools attending a tournament, a traditional "kungfu" guy never wins. "creation" is just a seed, and San shou has grown into a modern and completely different entity. Your backward thinking would only hamper a fighter.

Lets see one of YOUR matches,

After you sir, I insist! :D

Brent didn't attack you first.

Of course you would align with such idiocy, no suprise there.

:rolleyes:

and the hypocracy of you giving me **** about "personal" attacks.

Imaginite...

Oso

03-03-2003, 03:32 PM

dez, you completely missed the thread from the weekend about
ninjas just totally sucking.

to recap:

ninjas suck. ok. no way they can be totally sweet, flip out and
kill people. they just suck too bad to even think about that kind
of action.

even mma practitioners could beat ninjas:D

Shooter

03-03-2003, 03:33 PM

Abel, you've seen the feeding frenzies that surround kung fu fight-clips on the web...all the scrutiny of no-fightin' pussies passing judgement on guys who are putting their $hit on the line (this thread regarding Mr. Perry is a perfect example)...whatever their personal reasons for competing, those guys didn't get in the ring for some pu$$y to rag on their performance.

Fighters don't tear down because they know what it takes to get in the ring again and again. My own reasons for competing were only to see how I stack up personally and how my basic understanding of TCC can be evolved from my experience in that limited format. It also gives me a realistic approach to the way I train others.

There are still-pictures on the web if you look hard enough.

dezhen2001

03-03-2003, 03:38 PM

guess i was wrong then :(

dawood

Royal Dragon

03-03-2003, 03:40 PM

I have to aggree, San Shou is just modern Kickboxing with throws done by the Chinese. It's not Traditional Kung Fu in the least.

I want video clips of authentic Kung Fu performed in competiton and winning. There HAS to be some out there. The problem is, everytime I get someone who is worthy, all they want to do is show me forms or application demo's. NEVER actualy fight footage. Even if the footage is amongst others of the same style, in the same venue, and the winner would be showcase.

The VERY few clips we do have, are put up by MMA's who are trying to prove we can't fight, like Nick said above.

I would like something to counter that is posible.

I want every Kung Fu guy out there to send me good fight footage, and eventually, I will digitze it for the site. But till I have the video card to do it, I would like to see some clips already existing.

Unfortunetly, there does not seem to be any.

Merryprankster

03-03-2003, 03:42 PM

I haven't seen any clips of shooters guys unfortunately. But I have heard good things from members of the MMA community--his guys come to represent and do well in those arenas.

Perhaps Tai Chi is the future of MMA.

Nothing speaks quite for itself like performance.

Unfortunetly, there does not seem to be any.

Invites the question, doesn't it? FWIW, the MMA community didn't go out of its way to find these fights. They aren't that hard to find....and the White Crane vs. Tai Chi fiasco was posted by a KFer last I checked.

Now, I'm really not trying to be a **** by asking why aren't the clips out there. I'm genuinely curious. Is it a mindset issue, or just something nobody's thought about doing?

Oso

03-03-2003, 03:51 PM

dez, that's ok bro, it's a pretty common misconception that
ninjas are really cool

they just aren't.

Golden Arms

03-03-2003, 03:54 PM

Clips..Nuff said..I accidentally erased my entire post. Here is what it said in summary:

View clips below then tell me that any of you MOUTHBOXERS would dare set foot in front of this guy when he fought200+ opponents over 3 days. Its TMA, his name is Mas Oyama, and read some of his history, including the streetfight he and 1 other guy got in against 10 guys in a motorcycle gang, and say he didnt know his stuff. The dude has killed bulls with his bare hands, you want to catch a hit from him?

Fight clips....especially Oyama sparring 4. (http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/Kyokushin.htm)

Xebsball

03-03-2003, 03:56 PM

yo MP, if you come to brazil again let me know some weeks earlier cos i know some l33t sk33lz TCMA peoples.

Royal Dragon

03-03-2003, 03:59 PM

I had a conversation with one of my Tai tzu brothers a few days ago. I brought up the MMA thing. He imediatley said he traines his guys for combat (As a millitary hand to hand instructor, I have no doubt this is true), BUT, when I mentioned fighting in the Kuo Shou, he got all excited about it, and was really enthusiastic about entering his fighters in it.

It's like he considered MMA some sort of childish ego fest, and Kuo Shou a respectable venue. If he is represenative of the majority of Chinese martial artists out there, then we will probably not seee Kung Fu in MMA to often. BUT, that being the case, Kuo Shuo really excites him, so assuming he's represenative of the commmunity as a whole in that respect too, and condsidering Kuo Shuo is rather popular and holds both national and international events, why aren't there any clips of it anywhere?

Surley there have to be tones of good fights showcasing lots of winners, right?? I mean you can't have fights without winners, right? All the Kuo Shou fights I have seen were all very well done, and showcased some excellent talent and skill in the authentic Chinese styles. I'm thinking that putting clips up on the net of winning fights might look too much like ego boasting, so it's just not done. Forms and application demo's are seen as educational, so they ARE put up on the net.

SifuAbel

03-03-2003, 05:03 PM

"Abel, you've seen the feeding frenzies that surround kung fu fight-clips on the web...all the scrutiny of no-fightin' pussies passing judgement on guys who are putting their $hit on the line (this thread regarding Mr. Perry is a perfect example)...whatever their personal reasons for competing, those guys didn't get in the ring for some pu$$y to rag on their performance."

This is a probable answer to the "why kuo shu clips aren't available" issue. Why should they? Whats the actual number of clips that show "vs." fights?

StOo I'm glad you like it, I thought it captured your true essence, a drama queen. Compay. Bro. Monina. Acere. Maricon. Comemierda. (sarcasm)

Attacks, Sure, it's a pot meets kettle situation, but I'm not talking about me.

I don't have video of my fights, never had the foresight to think one day I'd put them on the internet. If you have any, Why would that stop you from posting yours? We should be in awe of your superior skills, Right?

And this "evolution" **** is dumb, "Its CMA but not TCMA" That makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

SS is trying really hard to be a style not a venue. But, Its really a dumbing down of CMA.

Knifefighter

03-03-2003, 06:03 PM

Knifefighter

03-03-2003, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Shooter
It's fairly well known on this forum that my school has fielded players in the public MMA arena for years. To my knowledge, Northern Lights Tai Chi is the only school which has that distinction. Isn't it funny how everyone around here selectively forgets that fact though? :cool:

Shooter:
I don't think that's the point of this thread. The point made by RD was that it has to "look like kung fu" rather than some bouncing around kickboxing. I don't think any of us are taking issue with the fact that there are some people who are using CMA to fight with. Our problem is with those who think it is going to look "kung-fuish" (like that clip), rather than what real figthing looks like. I doubt your guys look much different than the other fighters.

Water Dragon

03-03-2003, 06:26 PM

There's differences. But there mostly in regards to how power is delivered. If you look closely at some video. You CAN see it.

Knifefighter

03-03-2003, 06:30 PM

Royal Dragon

03-03-2003, 06:31 PM

I'm not looking for footage that looks like a Jakie Chan flick in the ring. I am looking for solid CMA principals. Like WD said, CMA has very dstinct power generation methods. The footwork is distinct. I want to see those qualities in the fighter. It has nothing to do with the hollywood Kung Fu example.

Knifefighter

03-03-2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
The problem is, everytime I get someone who is worthy, all they want to do is show me forms or application demo's. NEVER actualy fight footage.

Doesn't that tell you something?

FatherDog

03-03-2003, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00
Would LennoX Lewis suddenly change sports to wrestling, just because he's a good athlete? Marvin is making a career with kickboxing and will be wise to continue on that path. He has a future in K-1 and k-1 S-cup, muay thai fights, possible pro sanda matches.

Why start on the bottom of another totem pole when you're already doing great on your own?

Please understand; I wasn't denigrating Marvin at all. I completely agree that it makes perfect sense for him to stick to San Da and kickboxing, if that's what he wants to do; I certainly don't think he needs to prove anything by competing NHB. I was just expressing the fact that I, personally, would like to see him compete NHB, because I'd be very interested to see San Shou plus groundfighting in that format, and Perry seems to be among the top folks when it comes to San Shou. I'm disappointed to hear that he has no plans to do so, because it's something I'd love to watch, but I certainly don't think any less of him for it.

Knifefighter

03-03-2003, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by Water Dragon
There's differences. But there mostly in regards to how power is delivered. If you look closely at some video. You CAN see it.

That video is a DEMONSTRATION. It's not even close to real fighting. There's a reason you can't find footage of real fighting looking like what you saw in that video.

Oso

03-03-2003, 07:03 PM

RD, now see what you've started???

Go stand in a horse stance in the corner and recite

"All I wanted was a video
just one video."

a thousand times.

Royal Dragon

03-03-2003, 07:10 PM

LOL @ OSO!!

Shooter

03-03-2003, 07:27 PM

Knifefighter, fair enough. I generally agree with what you're saying, but....

The main difference between what we do and what MMA fighters are doing is based on 5 Steps. Without 5 Steps and their positional strategies, a Tai Chi player has very little functional footwork for applied 8 Gates as they (8 Gates) are classically trained...especially against an intelligent, well trained MMA fighter. They would have to adopt the same types of footwork MMAers use. Very few TCC players realize that 5 STeps are an equal part of the fighting method. They're as deep a body of study as peng, 8 Gates, ting, fa-jin, chan-ssu-chin, blah blah blah...

There's only one way to learn 5 Steps...hard contact and properly structured sparring...2 things which are seriously lacking in most all TCC schools. I only know of 3 schools ( and 2 non-commercial teachers) where this is a staple of their training.

As I've yet to see any in-depth discussions of 5 Steps here, or anywhere else, I doubt you'll see many Tai Chi dudes using classical Tai Chi in MMA...I doubt you'll see much of it in any type of full-on competition other than sub-wrestling. They're going to have the same footwork as boxers, kickboxers, MMAers, and wrestlers as per their chosen sportive training. I've seen the people I've trained use proper 8 Gates from time to time in MMA because 5 Steps is all they're taught.

Since he's so vastly knowlegdeable, maybe Larry can put his popcorn down for a minute and explain what I'm talking about :p

Oso

03-03-2003, 07:28 PM

well, it's a silly ****ing argument.

what difference does it really make if anyone else thinks you can
kick ass or not?

It's like a bunch of high school boys trying to peek at each other
in the shower to see who's got the biggest ****.:D

SevenStar

03-03-2003, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by Golden Arms
Clips..Nuff said..I accidentally erased my entire post. Here is what it said in summary:

View clips below then tell me that any of you MOUTHBOXERS would dare set foot in front of this guy when he fought200+ opponents over 3 days. Its TMA, his name is Mas Oyama, and read some of his history, including the streetfight he and 1 other guy got in against 10 guys in a motorcycle gang, and say he didnt know his stuff. The dude has killed bulls with his bare hands, you want to catch a hit from him?

Fight clips....especially Oyama sparring 4. (http://www.kyokushinmail.com/koya/Kyokushin.htm)

That's the type of stuff I'm laways talking about. Who cares what Oyama could do? He was an awesome martial artist, proved it and got respect for it. What does that do for you? NOTHING. I know you're not trying to validate yourself with that post, but all too often people say "grandmaster so and so from my lineage was undefeated and could shoot chi blasts" That's fine, but says nothing about you or your school, unless you are training directly under him. Royce did excellent in both bjj and mma, but does that say anything about me? Not at all.

Royal Dragon

03-03-2003, 07:33 PM

It's not WHETHER we can kick ass, it's HOW. See, I want video clips that show good Ass kicking in the Kung Fu way, NOT the Kick Boxer way.

Is that so much to ask?

SevenStar

03-03-2003, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by BrentCarey

That is a pretty common reasoning error made by people with limited experience. (Not saying you necessarily lack experience, just that it is a common mistake.) When you first learn a technique, do you practice it full-speed from the beginning? No, you practice it slowly at first so you can see what is supposed to be happening. Gradually, as you build up an understanding, you increase the speed to combat speed. As you speed up, and your opponent speeds up and resists, you find that you have to modify the technique slightly, but the underlying principles remain the same.

When you practice "big and bold", this is an exercise - a means to an end. When you move past this, your techiques are faster, deeper, more powerful, and more effective. To use an analogy, it is somewhat like running 5-10 miles a day to improve your 100-yard dash.

yohu start out slow, but can be doing them fulol speed by the end of the workout in many cases. If you are learning a long form, then no, but keeping with the grappling example where you are working wingle technique forms, you can have them full speed after one class. Of course, you must continually drill it before it's second nature, but you drill it with speed.

However, these students were not proficient in kung fu - they just knew how to do a few techniques well and were encouraged to express a certain mindset. Yes, I can train someone to defend themselves fairly well in 6 months, but they would not progress very far because the foundation would not be established.

I find my instruction being a compromise between establishing a long-term plan with a firm foundation, and giving students techniques and principles that are immediately useful. For the first couple of years, I spend a fair amount of effort just reminding students that while they may "think" they have it down, they still cannot pull it off in the real world. This prevents people from becoming complacent with their training. The only trick then is illustrating how all of this foundation work will pay off in the long run. That typically involves walking a fine line. However, students always understand after the fact.

gotcha.

I thought we were holding style vs style posts. Who said anything about grappling? I am not claiming KF superiority in any of the aforementioned traits. I am just saying that these traits enter into the equation for many people. Please, let's avoid aesthetical comparisons. My point with reference to aesthetics was simply that the look and feel of KF attracts many practitioners.

it's not style vs. style. I'm relating what you say to grappling because it's what I do.

Water Dragon

03-03-2003, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter

That video is a DEMONSTRATION. It's not even close to real fighting. There's a reason you can't find footage of real fighting looking like what you saw in that video.

I'm not talking about that. Watch Max Chen fight. You should be able to find footage somewhere. Watch him real close. Watch his counterfighting. It's a little different, a little unique. That's where I see Taichi in fighting. That's the main thing I picked up from it. Your defense becomes extremely tight.

It's small differences like in how a boxer and Thai boxer hold theor guards different.

But it still looks like fighting and not some Shaw Brothers flick. And all fighting is ugly, even a boxer is ugly in MMA when a lot of the rules come off.

Oso

03-03-2003, 07:54 PM

well, I look at it this way.

I do my thing in my town and did my thing in my sifu's school.
And occasionally visited another school and did my thing.
I never got dissed about my abilities. That's good enough for
me. I got riled up about this crap a couple months ago (mainly
cuz ST00 is good at riling people up ;) ) and then realized that
while I want respect for what I do, it really doesn't matter what
a bunch of people on a web forum think about what I do. Not
dissing anyone in particular, some of you are really nice guys. And,
even though many of the threads here are thought provoking
and it is certainly a great place to meet a lot of different ma folks
you guys mean very little to my personal ma practice.

This place could be a lot better than it is and maybe really mean
something for the future of martial arts in general if the ego's
would be left at home.

funny, from day one of my martial career I have been taught that
ego was the first thing that needed to go to become a great
martial artist.

but, there I go again, being all idealistic. So, back to your
argument....................

Brad

03-03-2003, 08:00 PM

See, I want video clips that show good Ass kicking in the Kung Fu way, NOT the Kick Boxer way.

Is that so much to ask?
Maybe the "kickboxer way" just works better overall in a sport format?

apeters28

03-03-2003, 09:49 PM

Oso,

that was a great reply, and a great post. I couldn't agree more, and you were able to say it without being mean or sounding bitter. I like when people on here post legitimate things but some people have way too much time on their handsand they use it to post thousands of things on here just ripping other people, which means they probably aren't really training all that much :D, especially not enough to tell me my style isn't effective or to pass judgement on anyone for that matter.

Just a thought...

jon

03-03-2003, 10:15 PM

Knifefighter and others who seem unable to believe anyone can actualy fight using TCMA.

The clip is *not* prearanged, it states clearly *during* the clip that BKF is playing around with the guy who won the comp that he was judging at.
Obviously they are not trying to kill each other, neither do most of the guys i see performing Thai Boxing at demonstrations.

Your making comments which are intirely marked by the evidence at hand.
Here is someone using traditional martial arts on a resisiting opponent in a non fixed mannor. Yet somehow this is still 'fixed' and 'unrealistic'.

Its obvious that this is for a demonstration, no one is wearing *any* protective equipment and the floor in unpadded. The reason for the run ups for the techniques is simply to make it look more spectuacular for the audience.
Lets all get mad at the guys for not trying to off each other for our enjoyment.

Honestly this just pains me.

Im going to start paying out Thai boxers for that useless dance they like do before they fight.
Or wrestlers for wearing LYCRA!!!
Or maybe i should have a go at boxers who apperently cant fight without pillows on there hands.
Or maybe the BJJ gaurd which just happens to 'look' about as martial as offering your opponent a flower.

I cant believe that people are still so darn detrimental, if you dont get something - YOU dont get it. Dont try to pretend that just becouse you dont understand the point of something that no one else will either.
I personaly dont understand how atomic reactions happen but im not dumb enough to deny the existence of bombs.

Dont worry im sure your quite right, there is a whole multitude of misguided people out there - except those following your logic of course. Infact a whole country somehow managed to be able to create a non working fighting system and then ingrain it into there culture.

Please forgive my probarly overly negative reaction and terrible grammar and spelling but im getting mighty sick of people harping on things they have no idea about. I can compleatly understand why MMA get annoyed with traditionalists tell them there stuff is only for 'the ring', i just wish for the same respect to be shown back of occasion.

SevenStar

03-03-2003, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by apeters28
Oso,

that was a great reply, and a great post. I couldn't agree more, and you were able to say it without being mean or sounding bitter. I like when people on here post legitimate things but some people have way too much time on their handsand they use it to post thousands of things on here just ripping other people, which means they probably aren't really training all that much :D, especially not enough to tell me my style isn't effective or to pass judgement on anyone for that matter.

Just a thought...

And then you've got insomniacs like me who train constantly and stay up all night ripping people apart to pass time :D

SevenStar

03-03-2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Oso
And,
even though many of the threads here are thought provoking
and it is certainly a great place to meet a lot of different ma folks
you guys mean very little to my personal ma practice.

:eek: not even me? :(

SevenStar

03-03-2003, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by Nick Monticello
How's he going to do that? his foot was smashing his head almsot as fast as he landed. The only reason it was go'n THAT slow was because it was a demo. If it had been real, the guy would have been KO'd before he would have time to "Hook" as you say.

1. the guy was haplessly charging - with spin kicks no less.
2. look at the 3rd sequence and also at the last - BK had to catch up to the guy before he could attempt any type of stomp. The guy had no ground smarts, so he was just rolling on the ground instead of actually doing anything.
3. in the second sequence, there's enough hesitation between the takedown and the stomp for the guy to either cover his head (which he should have been doing anyway) or to try and position himself to mount an attack.

Not to take anything away from BK - I hear he's excellent - but that guy did have time to do SOMETHING in most of those sequences.

BrentCarey

03-03-2003, 11:25 PM

Originally posted by SanShou Guru
BreantCary
I assume the only Clip you saw of Marvin was the 1997 PPV fight. Watch the rest of the clips then come back and talk about his speed and how easy it is to grab his leg and throw him. In his last fight he threw a round kick that broke his opponets arm so I would say he is not just a side kicker.
That may very well be the case. I am not commenting about Perry in general. As stated, I am just commenting on the one short clip I saw. By all accounts, he is a competent competitor. This thread was started with the question, "What is your opinon of this fight?"

I don't believe any informed viewer can objectively look at that footage and observe a dangerous overusage of a mediocre side kick. No disrespect to Mr. Perry is intended. I was simply answering the initial question.

-B

SevenStar

03-03-2003, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by Nick Monticello
Those fights were crap. Out of thousands of Kung Fu fights, in and out of competiton, and thousands, if not 10's of thusands of Kung Fu practioners, you MMA guys manage to find the 3 that represent total CRAP for talent.

Pleeeeeeease, your making me laugh!

Isn't it odd that whenever a clip is posted of some CMA fight, be it sparring, mma, etc. The guy in the clip is always considered crap?

Please, find a good clip for us to enjoy. Surely you can find one.

Seriously though, max chen would be a good one to watch, but you're not gonna find any clips of him.

BrentCarey

03-03-2003, 11:57 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter

You're not saying you can improve your 100 yard dash by running 5-10 miles a day are you? If you are, and are training your athletes based on principles like that, you are entirely off base.
No, of course not. I am just using a loose. Running 5-10 miles a day will make one a stronger runner and be somewhat conducive to producing a competent sprinter.

The analogy actually holds fairly solid. If you want to make a good sprinter, you train for sprinting, but the sprinter will not necessarily be a good distance runner, hurdler, or pole vaulter. To be competent in all of these activities, one must train for all of them. Granted, one will not likely be the best at any given activity, but should be proficient in each of them.

If you want to be the best in the ring, you must train for the ring. If you want to be a strong, well-rounded martial artist, you must train for every environment you are concerned with. You are not likely to be the best in the ring if you do so, but you will have many skills that transcend the ring.

I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself. If I entered the ring with a very skilled competitor, I would have my work cut out for me. I have given very little thought, and less training toward competition. However, put me against three big semi-skilled/unskilled fighters with weapons, and my odds are pretty good. I know because I've been there.

This is not a boast. I know my limitations. I suspect I would be a mediocre competitor in the ring, I know my ground game is weak, and I could use more practicing using qin na against very strong attackers. I am strong in those things I've trained for: armed attackers, multiple attackers, etc.

Anyway, not to make this all about me, but that is what I meant with the analogy.

-B

BrentCarey

03-04-2003, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by SevenStar
[...]all too often people say "grandmaster so and so from my lineage was undefeated and could shoot chi blasts" That's fine, but says nothing about you or your school, unless you are training directly under him.
True words. Lineage is nearly meaningless. Competent fighters are not necessarily competent teachers. Even when one has found a good fighter and teacher all rolled together, that doesn't mean the student is committed and capable.

Thank you for pointing this out.

-B

BrentCarey

03-04-2003, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by SevenStar
it's not style vs. style. I'm relating what you say to grappling because it's what I do.
I understand. I reread the post with that in mind and understand now.

-B

Oso

03-04-2003, 05:56 AM

ok, seven. you found me out.

you know that shadow you think you see out of the corner of
your eye every once in a while?

I watch your every move in an effort to be as tough a mofo as u.

I, too, want to stop TKD chicks in their tracks and deprive myself
of sleep.

;) :)

dezhen2001

03-04-2003, 07:04 AM

but some people have way too much time on their handsand they use it to post thousands of things on here just ripping other people, which means they probably aren't really training all that much or some of us just spend time online when they should be studying or at work :D Also - my post count is carefully crafted over the last year, it takes "gong fu" to develop such a high level count :cool:

I watch your every move

Now THAT is scary :eek::D

dawood

SevenStar

03-04-2003, 11:44 AM

yes, TKD chicks LOVE tough mofos who don't need sleep. :D

Water Dragon

03-04-2003, 12:05 PM

Here's a still pick of a San Shou fight. Please note two things:

1. This is definately not kickboxing
2. This is defiantely not pretty

The gentleman on the right is no other than Wai Lun Choi

http://www.liuhopafa.com/fight2.JPG

ShaolinTiger00

03-04-2003, 12:18 PM

3. These guys couldn't break a wet paper bag if they combined stupid stance and desperate backfist.

:rolleyes:

Shadowboxer

03-04-2003, 12:33 PM

To everybody on KFO,

I edit digital video for a living. I will digitize anybody's clips
FOR FREE. Just send me a PM if you are interested.

Shadowboxer

Water Dragon

03-04-2003, 12:34 PM

OK, if that's wht you think. I'll still throw out names like Max Chen, Wai Lun Choi, and Mike Patterson as examples of people who can fight using CMA. If you disagree, that's OK. You may want to make sure though that you're not viewing the whole world through boxing colored glasses. After all, if all you have is a hammer...

shaolin kungfu

03-04-2003, 12:37 PM

Why doesn't someone who trains cma tape themselves sparring or fighting?

CD Lee

03-04-2003, 12:45 PM

Shaolin Tiger:

kungfu, krate, tkd are so much HUGER and so much more popular than MMA, yet can't find a single clip, not one, not even against a street punk.

hmmm..

I am not really here to get into this crap with you guys, but even I have seen footage on national TV a few years ago of a martial arts teacher helping instruct actors, take out a pimp 'on the street' with a plain 'ol Karate spinning backfist. The pimp did not even see the punch, and was KO'd badly. After his friend got him up, he could not even walk, but was still mouthing, as he was dragged away into the car. It may be small, but there's your one example. I am sure that has never happened before or since in hundreds of thousands of street fights.

Don' t remember the name of the show or even care, as I remember it quite well, not to mention it was hilarious. But it was real footage of Karate beating a street punk. Hey, you made me remember it thats all.

As far as dissing Xingyi as comical, all I can say is if you saw a water fist take a guy out in a fight, you would have no idea what you saw. You would say it was a western uppercut, lucky shot. Just boxing, MMA. A wood punch? He just hit the guy in the stomach, so what? Looked like MMA to me.

Losttrak

03-04-2003, 12:51 PM

Where do you train your WC?

BTW I will see about getting a digital camera and taping a few bouts.

SifuAbel

03-04-2003, 01:11 PM

Hey ralek , ST or whatever your name is today.

When are you coming to so cal next?

What division, weight class, age, etc.

I wanna know.

Rolling Elbow

03-04-2003, 01:27 PM

a hook is a hook..like CD Lee said, how can you really say that it is MMA when clearly it is just as practical and looks the same?

SifuAbel

03-04-2003, 01:32 PM

There is no MMA style. MMA is a VENUE.

It is A MIX of fighting styles NOT a style unto itself.

ShaolinTiger00

03-04-2003, 02:02 PM

There is no MMA style. MMA is a VENUE.

Again Acere Abel (LMAO @ acere - I suspected a Marielito..), your ingorance wags its prehensile tail.

MMA is very much its own style today and ask any modern MMA gym and they will tell you this truth.

MMA is its own style.

San Shou is its own Style

BJJ is its own style. (It has roots in judo but it is different and seperate)

Choy Li Fut is its own style (although it came from other types of kungfu)

Haters. the CMA communtiy is full of bitter and sad haters who cannot accept the amazing success of MMA, San shou, & BJJ and others who actually put the skills to the test.

SifuAbel

03-04-2003, 02:18 PM

Hey Mic *******, I asked you a question. When are you coming to so cal for san shou?!?!?

I'll put you to the test Mother ****er. So far we were just Bsing about MA.

Now, its personal, come get some.

Bjj and choy lay fut were styles not some bull**** derivitive from a VENUE.

Te voy a enterrar, maricon, hijo puta.

:mad:

Water Dragon

03-04-2003, 02:21 PM

Ay Chingao! Tiene mucho hambre este pescado!

Nick Monticello

03-04-2003, 02:36 PM

MMA is fun and all, but still it is a Venue like our hott headded Cuban friend above stated.

Long Fist, Nan Chuan Taiji, Bagua etc THOS are styles. MMA is a mix of any style the fighter happened to train in at the moment.

ShaolinTiger00

03-04-2003, 02:43 PM

Now, its personal, come get some.

Sé que soy bueno. Usted debe probar su muay talento. Ven aguí mama pinga.

lol @ WD

SifuAbel

03-04-2003, 04:36 PM

Oye chupa tranca,

Deja tu espanol de gringo en el culo que es tu voca. Eres un comemierda creido y cobarde. Mejor que no vengas a aqui. No vas a salir entero. Eso es una promesa.

I'll ask you again, when are you getting out here to california? You're a big time player supposedly. Have you not been here before?

Wd , if your fish hungery , feed it.

Archangel

03-04-2003, 04:51 PM

Guru,

I wanted to address this point you made early in the discussion.

"As to people making the old "NHB guys are tougher" claim I will say this; Marvin would never presume he could beat an NHB guy at their rules but any NHB guy who want to challenge Marvin at Sanda or MT rules is more than welcome to."

There is a huge flaw in your logic here. You take a Sanda competitor and place him in the Pride tournament and the rules do not limit him at all. He is ALLOWED to do everything he would be able to in Sanda.

On ther other hand though, you take a MMA fighter and place him in a Sanda competition and he is severly limited. One of his ranges is not allowed in this format. The best way to determine overall fighting ability is to chose the venue with the least amount of rules, which would be MMA.

SevenStar

03-04-2003, 09:37 PM

not to correct a cuban or anything, but shouldn't it be "hijo de un puto"?

Serpent

03-04-2003, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by SevenStar
not to correct a cuban or anything, but shouldn't it be "hijo de un puto"?

To be fair, shouldn't it be in fukking English, so we can all enjoy it?

What's the point in Abel and ST00 have a *****fest unless we can all laugh along?

Knifefighter

03-04-2003, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by jon
The clip is *not* prearanged, it states clearly *during* the clip that BKF is playing around with the guy who won the comp that he was judging at.
Obviously they are not trying to kill each other, neither do most of the guys i see performing Thai Boxing at demonstrations.

Your making comments which are intirely marked by the evidence at hand.
Here is someone using traditional martial arts on a resisiting opponent in a non fixed mannor. Yet somehow this is still 'fixed' and 'unrealistic'.

If that guy wasn't taking a fall, he's one sorry fighter.

SevenStar

03-04-2003, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by Serpent

To be fair, shouldn't it be in fukking English, so we can all enjoy it?

What's the point in Abel and ST00 have a *****fest unless we can all laugh along?

:D true. I can understand it though :p

Serpent

03-04-2003, 09:50 PM

Oh, man, this is classic! I just used an internet translator to see what these guys were saying and the result is like a classic chop socky kung fu flick! For those of you who, like me, are linguistically challenged when it comes to Spanish, here is a low down on what's been happening:

Abel: I am going to bury you, maricon, son prostitute.

Water Dragon: Oh Chingao! Has a great deal of hunger this fish!

ST00: I know that am good. You should test its muay talent. They see aguí breast pinga.

Abel: It hears sucks tranca,

It leaves your espanol of gringo in the bum that is your voca. You are a comemierda believed and cowardly. Better than do not you avenge to aqui. You are not going to leave entire. That is a promise.

:D :D :D

SevenStar

03-04-2003, 09:51 PM

MMA is a style now though. It started as merely a venue and a style evolved from it.

joedoe

03-04-2003, 09:57 PM

Originally posted by Knifefighter

If that guy wasn't taking a fall, he's one sorry fighter.

Who knows if it was staged or not? However if they guy was that good and made the other guy look amateur in comparison then don't you think it is valid? I am sure there are fighters out there in MMA/UFC/whatever world that can make it look so easy that it looks staged.

Ultimately we will probably never know unless we get to try it out on this guy.

Knifefighter

03-04-2003, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by BrentCarey

No, of course not. I am just using a loose. Running 5-10 miles a day will make one a stronger runner and be somewhat conducive to producing a competent sprinter.-B

Brent:
I coached runners for years. Running 5-10 miles a day is detrimental to sprinting performance. You will be hard pressed to find even a collegiate level sprinter who also does any distance running. Certain types of training can be detrimental to some types of physical performance and it is important to know the distinctions if you want to train athletes to maximize their performance.

SevenStar

03-04-2003, 10:12 PM

you coached runners? cool. you can answer this then. Sometimes when I run over a certain distance, my lower back starts to hurt. Do you think that would me more due to my form or weak lower back muscles?

Knifefighter

03-04-2003, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by SevenStar
Sometimes when I run over a certain distance, my lower back starts to hurt. Do you think that would me more due to my form or weak lower back muscles?

It could be one of a few things. Possibly weak core muscles (abs & lower back). Possibly bad form (try to run with your upper body straight up and down and don't look down at the ground when you run).

The most common thing, however, is just plain fatigue in your back muscles. Each of your muscles has a fatigue point. If your lower back muscles fatigue early, you will feel discomfort there. If you run sensibly and consistently, eventually, your back muscles will become more fatigue resistant as you get accustomed to running more. Aches and pains are very common among beginning runners. As long as a person does not overdo things and/or train incorrectly, eventually these small discomforts disappear.

Knifefighter

03-04-2003, 10:27 PM

Yes and no. Yes, in that is has several common denominators (BJJ, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, Sambo). No, in that not all MMA fighters train in all of these things.

Knifefighter

03-04-2003, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by CD Lee
\\all I can say is if you saw a water fist take a guy out in a fight, you would have no idea what you saw. You would say it was a western uppercut, lucky shot. Just boxing, MMA. A wood punch? He just hit the guy in the stomach, so what? Looked like MMA to me.

Exactly. Real fighting doesn't look too much different, no matter what the style.

The guy on that clip was taking a fall, which was just a blatant as those done by many adidoists in their demonstrations. Nothing wrong with that. But don't think real fighting is ever going to look anything like that.

Serpent

03-04-2003, 10:41 PM

MMA is not a style. This perception really annoys me.

It's a methodology, a training philosophy. As KF said there are a number of things involved under the umbrella of MMA. These things have not been codified into a recognisable system, therefore it is not a style.

Many styles have been put together by taking aspects of other systems and combining them. When they are codified into a complete system, that becomes a new style. MMA does not meet that condition.

If you train in any combination of Muay Thai, BJJ, wrestling, boxing, etc., taking your training from a variety of sources, then you are a Mixed Martial Artist, you train under the MMA methodology, but your style is not "MMA".

Dayum, even half the actual styles argue amongst themselves about what the style is. MMA hasn't earned that right, yet! ;)

BrentCarey

03-05-2003, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
I coached runners for years. Running 5-10 miles a day is detrimental to sprinting performance. You will be hard pressed to find even a collegiate level sprinter who also does any distance running. Certain types of training can be detrimental to some types of physical performance and it is important to know the distinctions if you want to train athletes to maximize their performance.

This is precisely what I'm saying. Distance running will make a person a strong runner, but not an optimal sprinter. Distance running will make a person a stronger sprinter (when contrasted with - say pullups), but is not the best training for that specific activity. Distance running will make a person a stronger runner in all events (when contrasted with a non-runner), but will not produce champions in any of them (except maybe distance running).

My point is that you get what you train for. I guess I wasn't clear on that point.

-B

Knifefighter

03-05-2003, 07:11 AM

Originally posted by BrentCarey
Distance running will make a person a stronger sprinter (when contrasted with - say pullups), but is not the best training for that specific activity.

No it won't... Distance running will DECREASE sprinting performance.

ShaolinTiger00

03-05-2003, 07:26 AM

What's the point in Abel and ST00 have a *****fest unless we can all laugh along?

Let it never be said that Serpent has said something that I didn't fully agree with. :)
Don't even bother to transfer Cuban spanish through a translator. We use way too much slang, esp Marielitos.

Note: The people on this forum who have expereince with MMA (Knife fighter, SevenStar, myself) are in total agreement that MMA has trancended the original tournaments and is now a style stressing well rounded training.

SanShou Guru

03-05-2003, 08:29 AM

Archangel

Guru,

I wanted to address this point you made early in the discussion.

"As to people making the old "NHB guys are tougher" claim I will say this; Marvin would never presume he could beat an NHB guy at their rules but any NHB guy who want to challenge Marvin at Sanda or MT rules is more than welcome to."

There is a huge flaw in your logic here. You take a Sanda competitor and place him in the Pride tournament and the rules do not limit him at all. He is ALLOWED to do everything he would be able to in Sanda.

On ther other hand though, you take a MMA fighter and place him in a Sanda competition and he is severly limited. One of his ranges is not allowed in this format. The best way to determine overall fighting ability is to chose the venue with the least amount of rules, which would be MMA.

The logic flaw is yours archangel, you could say the same thing about Mike Tyson. He could do all the things he is trained to do as a boxer in a Pride event and more but that does not mean he could win. If you took any pride fighter and put them in a ring with Tyson under boxing rules I think we know what would happen. If you don't know how to grapple you probably wont do well in a grappling event. If you mostly know grappling you would not do as well in a non grappling event. See if you can under stand my point now. Marvin fights the under the rules he has trained for and makes no claimes to be able to do well in MMA events because that is not what he trains for. The same way Shamrock would not likely say he could beat Roy Jones Jr. in a boxing match.

Archangel

03-05-2003, 08:38 AM

Guru

Let me restate my point.

-MMA has LESS rules than Sanda
-Sanda uses 2 basic ranges (striking and standup grappling) when MMA uses 3
-Thus MMA is closer to reality than Sanda.
-The MMA arena would be a better competition to display overall fighting ability than Sanda

lkfmdc

03-05-2003, 08:40 AM

My opinion, train Marvin Perry 6 to 8 months in ground grappling and he'd be a force in MMA as well....

Archangel

03-05-2003, 08:45 AM

lkfmdc,

I completely agree with you there. If Marvin learned basic positions, how to escape and how to survive on the ground he would definately be a force; very Similar to Mo Smith.

SanShou Guru

03-05-2003, 08:47 AM

You miss my point.
I know MMA has less rules, and I don't care.

I said we fight under our rules because that is what we do. I said Marvin is one of the best stand up fighters not one of the best all around fighters. He could do well in MMA if he trained that style but he does not. This is a circular argument and you are resorting to the old MMA is more real and let me say I agree with you but THAT IS NOT WHAT WE DO. What I said is if a MMA guy wants to fight our style they are welcome to try but if we fought MMA rules Marvin would not likely do as well when it went to the ground because it is a different game. See if you can see that I'm not disagreeing with you.

ShaolinTiger00

03-05-2003, 09:02 AM

I would wager that Marvin could fight and win in many MMA venues without ever learning groundfighting.

Guru, - When was the last time someone completed a successful throw or takedown on Marvin in competition?

Marvin's great striking and clinch skills would make him VERY hard to takedown. If you can't take someone down, you can't groundfight...

The amazing irony of grappling (san shou is grappling - clinch work, takedowns throws) is that these athletes are much more adept at keeping the fight on their feet vs. an opponent.

The whole point of sanshou sanda is to take an opponent down to th ground. Marvin is a champion at negating this tactic and using his strikes to win.

lkfmdc

03-05-2003, 09:09 AM

San Shou/San Da is literally MMA standing, in that we hit and grapple, including knees now :) In something like UFC or Pride, ie fulll MMA we would benefit because we are hard to take down and we do know how to hit someone trying to take us down. But you always have to be prepared for the "what ifs" and if you end up on the ground, you need to train for that also

I dont' think anyone here is really disagreeing

SanShou Guru

03-05-2003, 09:10 AM

Marvin has been taken down twice in his last 10 San Shou matches I believe. In the last four months in Class he has been taken down maybe 5 times. When someone takes him down we all run around cheering and giving high fives. The last time someone caught his kick and took him down was Rudi Ott in 1999, right leg round kick catch. You have to remember though we have 3 seconds to throw someone and we try to stay on our feet. Give me 25 seconds and go down with him and I could get him down much more often. But yes Marvin is virtually impossible to thrown in San Shou/Sanda Rules. I doubt even Cung could throw him more than once or twice in a 5 round fight. The fact that Marvin is 230 lbs. now does not help either.

CD Lee

03-05-2003, 09:12 AM

Ok. I will say it. MMA is still full of sub-par fighters. The most talented fighters on the planet are western boxers. The reason they are boxers and not MMA or Karate guys, is one thing and one thing only. MONEY. The best fighters in the world that have the best talent, go to where the money is. Mike would take peoples heads off in the UFC if he learned to fight that way. It is not the style, it is the man behind the style.

If Mike Tyson, or Roy Jones Jr. took up MMA to strictly fight Pride style matches, you would see a new breed of fighter in those venues. Unfortunately, football has taken away many great would-be fighters, as well as basketball. Tennis is finally getting world class style atheletes, but it is due to the money available now.

Oh yeah...I forgot,

Shalolin MMA dude - I guess there is some footage of Karate beating a street punk. You were wrong.
Knife Fighter and you do not completley agree that MMA is a style. You were wrong there too.

You are fooling yourself if you think MMA is a style. Keep saying it, the sun is blue, the sun is blue, the sun is blue...

MMA is more like a Subway sandwich, you look, you pick what you want, and build your own sandwich. Yeah I know turkey is popular these days, but you don't have to do turkey, you can still get ham. Some dudes still do a little pepperoni with a dash of oregano...think I'll go eat now.

Archangel

03-05-2003, 10:25 AM

SanShou Guru

"I said Marvin is one of the best stand up fighters not one of the best all around fighters"

Very much agreed; I guess my point of contention was when you were stating that MMA fighters should go to Sanda competitions, where there are more rules. Other than that, we do agree.

lkfmdc

" San Shou/San Da is literally MMA standing, in that we hit and grapple, including knees now "

I'm not versed in Sanda rules but I do see some major differences. In Sanda you don't have to account for standing submissions. Also, like Guru said in MMA you have unlimited time to work for a takedown.

I don't believe that this would portray a major road block for Marvin but it's definately something he'd need to address. The submission and ground game are a completely different animal.

norther practitioner

03-05-2003, 10:34 AM

The fact that Marvin is 230 lbs. now does not help either.

Wow, didn't know he was that big. I've loved watching him fight the few times I have.

BrentCarey

03-05-2003, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Knifefighter
No it won't... Distance running will DECREASE sprinting performance.
Uggh! For crying out loud. Of course, if one is already a capable sprinter, distance running will decrease sprinting performance. I am contrasting distance running with no training, or with training that has little bearing on running performance in general.

If a person is not a runner AT ALL, and begins running 5-10 miles a day, that person will become a faster sprinter than they were before they started training. This is because they are making the transition from non-runner to runner.

Yes, we all know that distance running is not the way to optimally train for sprinting. I am only saying that it will transition a person from non-runner to runner. Such training will make a person a stronger runner than lack of training would. Such training will make a person a stronger sprinter than lack of training would.

I am not saying that distance running will improve a runner's sprint performance, but it will improve a non-runner's sprint performance by training them as a runner, but with some definite limitations. The limitations of the efficacy of distance running to improve sprint performance IS my point.

I will make it very simple. OK, we go pick a guy up off the couch (no previous training), and we clock him for 100 yards. Not too good. So, we get him running until he can run 5 miles a day. We take him back out and clock him. Hey look, his sprint is not too bad now (when compared to his first time).

I am not talking about taking an already competent sprinter and prescribing distance training to improve his sprint performance. As I have stated (repeatedly) this is not how you would train for optimal sprint performance.

Why are you hung up on this point? It is still only a loose analogy to pertain to the original discussion.

This is the very reason I created my new tagline. (see below)

-B

Archangel

03-05-2003, 11:55 AM

"Ok. I will say it. MMA is still full of sub-par fighters"

Oh come on, every sport has sub par performers; boxing has plenty of them as well. MMA also has it's share of world class and olympic athlethes.

"The most talented fighters on the planet are western boxers"

What kind of fighting are you talking about. If your talking about punching or maybe even striking in general I will give you that. However "fighting" is so much more than striking. Boxers like Tyson and Jones have great attributes, but tell me do you think that they could compete against say Baumgartner, Angle or Kevin Jackson on the mat? Do you think that they could hang with Mike Swain in a Judoka competition. Their attributes are specialized for striking, grappling is a different animal with often a complentary set of attributes attached to it.

I do see what you are saying though, the best athletes will go to where the money is. In the case of MMA, you have fighters with the best overall skill set but not neccarilly the best attributes for fighting.

SevenStar

03-05-2003, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by CD Lee
Ok. I will say it. MMA is still full of sub-par fighters. The most talented fighters on the planet are western boxers.

that's an apples and oranges comparison. mma would be sub par in boxing because they don't box. it's part of their training in some cases, but boxers they are not. On the same hand, boxers who aren't training for mma wouldn't fair to well in mma. That's got nothing to do with their fighting talent. You can't say mike tyson is more talented than bj penn and also a better fighter. they are two d@mn good fighters who took different paths. You can't just assume "penn doesn't box because he's a sub par fighter" or "Tyson boxes because he's an awesome fighter and boxing is where the awesome fighters get money." There are PLENTY of sub par boxers out there too.

CD Lee

03-05-2003, 12:22 PM

Archangel - You know...I expected more flaming than that... :D

Ok. Here is the deal. No, Tyson would not survive on the mat with any current grappler or half good grapplers. My point is really that the guys that have the most awesome physical skills for speed, power, accuracy, and toughness are in boxing. If these same guys were trained to fight in a Pride format, they would completely dominate the current group of guys.

Every single thing, when you talk about fighting, is relative. There are no absolutes. If Tyson is in a bar, and gets in a quick left hook on Jackson, fight will be over in seconds. If Jackson gets Tyson's leg, maybe it goes down, and Tyson bites him, I mean, loses. Who is the better fighter? The real question is who might be more dangerous?

If you do see a fighter in the MMA group that has world class striking skills, they will either have a major glaring weakness(weak chin, no defense), or they will be well past thier fighting peak. Guys that are close to world class striking ability are extreemly rare. Vitor is the closest I have seen, and you see how impressive he looks against almost anybody in a striking situation. Of course, he has glaring weaknesses as well that can be easily exploited in a boxing ring.

But just remember, Roy just pulled down 10 million. Foreman is so rich now, it is beyond ridiculous. Moseley, Trinidad, Ray Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, Frazier, on and on, these guys are muti-millionares when they strap on the gloves.

Boxing is also much more dangerous than MMA matches due to the nature of the rules and the caliber of the skill set with which these guys subject themselves. Remember in the UFC, if you can get a guy down from strikes, it is all but over within seconds. In boxing, they can knock a guy senseless, to the mat, 10 seconds, then let them recover, wipe the gloves, and whamo, they get to get hit even more, and harder, and with less reaction ability. Then if they happen to make it to the corner, they get to recover so they can come out fresh, and take even more damage to the brain. It is really quite unnatural. That is why so many boxers die in the ring.

CD Lee

03-05-2003, 12:34 PM

You can't just assume "penn doesn't box because he's a sub par fighter" or
"Tyson boxes because he's an awesome fighter and boxing is where the
awesome fighters get money." There are PLENTY of sub par boxers out
there too.

Yes there are very sucky boxers out there, as well as sucky MMA guys that we never even get to see. Like I said the term fighter is realative. So sucky talent gravitates to many places, but by point is that supreeme talent gravitates to the money, and boxing is where the money is.

Tyson boxes becuase he can punch with extreeme fury, power, and speed. And he can take shots. No, the real reason Penn does not box is because he does not have the physical, mental, or toughness skills to make it into the multi-millionare ranks fighting world class boxers. If he had those skills, do you think he would take the money?

Vitor Belfort subscribes to the reality as Milton once put it, that "it is better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven". I am not trying to be mean, he is awesome, but he has trained with world class boxing coaches, and he knows the score.

(A total aside here)
Anyone ever notice that Johnny Tapia keeps a pretty good ridgepole (straight up back) when he punches? Johnny could be a good Bagua guy.

Knifefighter

03-05-2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by CD Lee
My point is really that the guys that have the most awesome physical skills for speed, power, accuracy, and toughness are in boxing.

But just remember, Roy just pulled down 10 million. Foreman is so rich now, it is beyond ridiculous. Moseley, Trinidad, Ray Leonard, Hagler, Hearns, Frazier, on and on, these guys are muti-millionares when they strap on the gloves.

The best boxers gravitate towards professional boxing. Boxing is a very specific skill set, requiring certain physical attributes. This is a different skill set than fighting where punching, kicking, throwing, grappling, and groundfighting are all involved. The best athetes in boxing will not necessarily be the best athletes for MMA fighting, just as they would not necessarily be the best athletes for basketball, baseball, marathon running, tennis, Olympic weight lifting or any other specific athletic actitity.

ShaolinTiger00

03-05-2003, 12:39 PM

My point is really that the guys that have the most awesome physical skills for speed, power, accuracy, and toughness are in boxing

Football (Can you say Bob Sapp?), Basketball(Imagine the punch Shaq could throw in trained?), Hockey(Ever see a guy tougher than Gordie Howe?, Soccer (The legs of Pele), Rugby (thick in the arm, thick in the head), Track & Field (Quickness?).

since you were comparing apples to oranges I thought I'd bring the fruit ****tail.

Archangel

03-05-2003, 12:53 PM

"My point is really that the guys that have the most awesome physical skills for speed, power, accuracy, and toughness are in boxing."

You're talking about attributes not skills. Skillset is a completely different story Mr. Lee.

"Penn does not box is because he does not have the physical, mental, or toughness skills to make it into the multi-millionare ranks fighting world class boxers. If he had those skills, do you think he would take the money?"

BJ Penn has all of those things you mention, he does not however posess the hand speed, punching power and instincts of a boxer. Again, he does not posess the attributes of a boxer.

CD Lee

03-05-2003, 01:13 PM

Archangel,

I agree with you to a point. And yes we are saying exactly the same thing I think. You said:

BJ Penn has all of those things you mention, he does not however posess the hand
speed, punching power and instincts of a boxer. Again, he does not posess the attributes
of a boxer.

What you call hand speed, punching power, and instincts, I am referring to as Physical attributes. So you can see I am not really demeaning them, so much as saying they are playing the hand they were dealt.

that 'Shaolin' guy -
Hey, you talking to me? How about that Karate footage that exists that show Karate beating a street punk. You said not one example exists. What about that?

Football (Can you say Bob Sapp?), Basketball(Imagine the punch Shaq
could throw in trained?), Hockey(Ever see a guy tougher than Gordie
Howe?, Soccer (The legs of Pele), Rugby (thick in the arm, thick in the
head), Track & Field (Quickness?).

Football and tennis do not require the same fighting skills that MMA or boxing require. Hockey does not either. They have atheletes that are geared toward phenominal physical attributes such as timing, reaction muscular response, foot speed, agility, balance, and mental toughness, and also just toughness in general.

A boxer must possess in addition to those, fighting skills with the hands, utilizing within that small skill, speed, timing and power. As far as toughness, not only mental, but first and foremost, a boxer must be able to take a hard clean shot to the face and chin. A HARD shot from a world class striker with heavy tape added. Then, they need to be able to take it over and over in the course of 12 rounds.

Hey I am not talking about taking Roy Jones today, and training him for grappling and kicking. I am talking about someone as talented as Roy, and having him train in MMA from day one to develop as a MMA guy.

Kicking is not a critical skill in MMA no matter what anybody says. It is nice, it is definately optional to winning fights.

CD Lee

03-05-2003, 01:15 PM

Hey Shaolin - I noticed you are from DC? Cool. Where do you train at? I am in town. Don't know if I have time, but you never know... send me some email.

ShaolinTiger00

03-05-2003, 01:52 PM

CD -
my email is on my profile. drop me a line.

BrentCarey

03-05-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by CD Lee
Every single thing, when you talk about fighting, is relative. There are no absolutes.
Nice. This is so true on many different levels. You could have just posted those two sentences. The only thing that seems absolute is some people's egos, pride, or unyieding opininons.

-B

CD Lee

03-06-2003, 08:58 AM

Shaolin, check your private messages, it would not let me see your email address.

Ryu

03-06-2003, 11:05 AM

Originally posted by BrentCarey

Nice. This is so true on many different levels. You could have just posted those two sentences. The only thing that seems absolute is some people's egos, pride, or unyieding opininons.

-B

Unfortunately, it is not true. Real life is made up of both absolutes and relativity. While different situations and techniques in those situations may be relative to martial art, the ability to perform well, the qualities of strength, speed, endurance, etc. are pretty objective aspects of martial training.

Proper training in MA (that is the training that brings you athletic skill, proper fighting attributes, etc.) are absolutes in MA.

Below proper training, yes, things can be very relative. However, everything about fighting is NOT relative. There are things you MUST do to prepare for it.

Ryu

KC Elbows

03-06-2003, 11:51 AM

I see what you're doing Ryu. Only posting when you have a clear point, in an attempt to make it look like you always have a point.

It is fortunate that I do not suffer from the same weakness as you.

Somewhat off topic, but I agree, there ARE certain absolutes that are necessary. If you can't survive a hit without panicking, it doesn't matter one bit what art you're doing, etc. Well said.:D

Ryu

03-06-2003, 01:32 PM

Almost missed the sarcasm there... I was hurt! :(

:)

Ryu

norther practitioner

03-06-2003, 01:38 PM

Size, shape, arena, etc. are some of the absolutes I see, as your skill is always relative, are you good.....compared to whom..... how about now...... etc.

CD Lee

03-06-2003, 02:31 PM

Yes, those are good points on absolutes. The point I am getting at as far as fighting is that I can beat Mike Tyson if I sneak up on him with an aluminum bat, and nail him in the head or throat or knees. His stregth, power, and speed are absolutely real, and relative to fighting in a particular situation.

The other example is a classic 'boxer' vs. a 'slugger'. A wonderful set-up because both speed and power become very realative in this scenario.

No absolutes in fighting means that there is no guarantee you can win a fight simply because you are faster or stronger or more skilled than your opponent. Just ask Vernon Forest, who just lost to Mayorga, one of the ugliest styles I have ever witnessed. Forest is faster, and way more talented, but it was relative to Mayorga's mindset and intentions on a given night.

That is what I really mean. No guarantees.

CD Lee

03-06-2003, 02:41 PM

And another thing....

We love absolutes. We all love black and white issues and situations. They are comfortable, and as such, can be planned, managed, and controlled effectively. What does that have to do with Martial Arts?

I believe the search for the ultimate style is a by-product of longing for that absolute. An example whould be, "BJJ is the absolute best style. Finally a style that can beat any other style." A good feeling. I think we deep down hope our style has more absolutes to it than other styles. Most of us know this is not true, but we still wish for it.

Grapplers, if they can be big and strong enough, and fast enough, can take 'anybody' down. An absolute. It is comfortable to think this way, and gives a sense of security. It is also quite natural to seek this black and white clarity.

You know what a scary feeling is? Never knowing exactly how you will respond in a street fight or mugging. You may have a game plan, but is still multiple variables and a presumption of things that could happen.

Consequently, there is some comfort in understanding that things are never guaranteed.

Crimson Phoenix

03-08-2003, 03:11 AM

I'm with CD here...

there are indeed, as Ryu pointed out, things that MUST be done, are REQUIRED or are OBJECTIVE.
Yet, I believe that it's not because something is objective and/or mandatory that it makes it an absolute.

Indeed, train as hard and intelligently as you can...but even with that, there will always be things beyond your control, things you could not have guessed or planned, even stupid things that could get you killed like a frightened cat distracting you at the wrong millisecond, or an oily puddle making you lose balance at the wrong moment. The outcome of a fight is only known when it is over. Aside from that, check my sig.

Royal Dragon

03-08-2003, 11:58 AM

So does anyone have any footage of Good Kung Fu in real live competitive use?

There HAS to be someone with footage of the Kuo Shuo at least.........Right??

Mutant

03-10-2003, 03:08 PM

LMFAO @ this fuggin thread :D

RD, your search may indeed be futile.

There might be some examples out there somewhere of some kung fu fighter using very 'traditional' looking technique that is recognizable from his or her style against an opponent, either on the street or in the ring....but this would probably only happen if there was a HUGE mismatch in skill level and the fighter was just playing with the guy, much like in a demo.

Style disolves in a fight. It can sometimes be seen if you look real close but not always. Deliberate, form-derived, flat-footed stances and movements are too slow and static to fight with against a well trained opponent or in the street when everything is at stake. Techniques & stances will be there but in an abreviated & internalized way. The core techniques are not nessesarily obvious within the chaos of a fight, they are changing, mutated, evolving, adapting in real-time. If one deliberatlely tries to over-ride this and bring stylistic emphasis and deliberately 'traditional'-training-like stance-work-like movement into this chaos and is able to employ this, they are either fighting an opponent that is so bad that there is a)an egreguous mis-match and they are not fighting under real stress/danger, b)the 'opponent' is going along with them (you often see this when students are 'brainwashed'), or c) they are about to get their butt kicked by a good fighter who is not slowing down to play that game and they will soon be beaten badly or will have to adjust their fight strategy in about 2 seconds and become what many of you see as 'merely' a kickboxer or imperfect brawler. Fighting like a form or even distilled core technique is fantasy; core technique is ideally there, it is just not always recognizable. Even Max Chen looks like he's fighting san shou when in the ring, not 'tai chi' style. Of course he brings his experience and basics with him when he fights, but he doenst fight stylisticly. Btw, he just lost to one of lkfmdc's NY fighters.

Saying that san shou/san da, kickboxing, muay thai, etc, are all the same & look alike is pure ignorance. Sure they share common elements; after all they are full-contact fighting methods. Just because they look the same to you, doent mean they are, you have just not been exposed on a deep enough level to these arts if you think that. If you just used a western kickboxing or boxing stance, you might be torn up by kicks and would have a hard time catching and throwing...one would probably not win at san shou that way.

And the footwork you see as 'boxing' or 'kickboxing' does have some things in common here; it is fast, dynamic and direct. But what you might be missing is that as the fighters bridge the distance and get in close & square up, much of the inside techniques are rooted and you may see stances and techniques that look almost 'traditional' as a san shou fighter fires off combos of punches, roots out, goes for throws. Here they are not on the balls of their feet...but when moving around the ring/lei tei at a more distance/range, trying to employ flat-footed overly rooted footwork would be too slow against a good fighter.

And I can tell you that sparring Marvin is un-fuking-believably hard. Hearing people say that he is slow, telegraphing and crude fighting is laughable. I know that you may be commenting on some fight clip you saw, but that can't even begin to tell the story. Again, people usually don't fight picture perfect in real fights. But this guys kicks are like steel battering rams and are very hard to see coming. If you manage to catch one, he can root on one leg and just crush you; he is almost impossible to throw. Of course he can throws me all over the ring, its hard to land stuff against him. He is known for his kicks but is a very well rounded fighter. And good side-kicks work against many fighters, muay thai guys will eat them all day long, not so easy to see and counter when theyre blasting at you, especially from someone like Marvin. I'll probably see him at the gym in a little while, I'll be sure to tell him that you think his kicks need some work, that his footwork is bad and that he shouldnt telegraph so much ;)

Brad

03-10-2003, 03:16 PM

There HAS to be someone with footage of the Kuo Shuo at least.........Right??
I did see some video of the 2001 Baltimore Kuoshu tournement where it looked like some girl was using Bagua, but I didn't stick around to watch anymore. Most of the fights just looked like complete garbage though. Kuoshu ain't all that great to watch.

Royal Dragon

03-10-2003, 04:32 PM

I dunno man, i've seen it used live, where it DOES loook like Kung Fu. The principals are there and if you look close you can see them. Also, traditional stances can be used quite effectively in combat if you know HOW they are used. I have seen them used in competiton quite effectively.

However, it seems finding actual fight footage of it is dam near impossible. I may have to go hit the tournament circutes, and film this stuff by hand.

Knifefighter

03-10-2003, 06:04 PM

RD:
You train at a real kung fu school that does real kung fu techs when fighting, right? It should be a simple procedure to just tape some of your guys mixing it up, shouldn't it?

Royal Dragon

03-10-2003, 06:10 PM

Actually, no. I am just working out on my own at the health club right now.

I teach a Taiji for health class, but since my health went 18 months or so ago, I have done little with the "Fight" side of the art personally. Mostly I have been rebuilding myself with my Taiji, and basic Kung Fu training, solo.

Right now, the most qualifed person to teach me is me. I don't see myself going to another teacher for quite some time. I have a guy I go to for corrections on my structure and mechanics from time to time, but for the most part I'm a "Lone Wolf" right now.

I want footage from competitons, not class room. Although I'll take classroom video, it's usually prearranged drilling, and not competitive fighting.

Knifefighter

03-10-2003, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Although I'll take classroom video, it's usually prearranged drilling, and not competitive fighting.

If that's the case, then there's your answer regarding why you can't find real kung fu techs in fighting competitions.

SevenStar

03-10-2003, 06:29 PM

maybe visit some local schools - free sparring is better than nothing

Royal Dragon

03-10-2003, 06:40 PM

I have seen it in Kuo Shou before. What I'm looking for IS out there, it just does not seem that anyone video's it. Or if they do, but they don't post the video in a clip format for the web.

Oso

03-10-2003, 07:02 PM

that's cuz they're afraid to show their wussy azz kung fu crap

Serpent

03-10-2003, 07:21 PM

No, it's because all the techs are so deadly that you can't have it lying around for just anyone to see and learn.

Geez, you guys!

Mutant

03-10-2003, 10:22 PM

RD,
I'm not saying that traditional looking kung fu sparring does not exist...its just that the more duress and pressure that is put on the fighter, the more abreviated & deconstructed the traditional techniques will become.

Just like you say you have seen real kung fu being applied, so have I and a lot of us. My point is that it becomes even harder to see clear techniques, stances, etc when there is the stress of uncooperative full contact. When you do see it, its probably because the fighters are playing along with the same game, as in they both consicously or nonconciously decided that they were going to fight 'kung fu style' together, or there is a big difference in skill level.

Sure a really good kung fu guy may be able to school some dolt who starts a fight, and use more apparent techiques, but that is when there is a huge difference in skill level and not much danger, so even if someone happened to get it on film, I'm not sure what it would really prove.

But if you throw in someone really dangerous who has a totally different game plan, a lot of the style points go right out the window. Yes, hopefully there are some fundamental kung fu skills being used, but they would be harder to see, and the fight would get ugly. This is the point where a lot of people would chime in and claim 'he wasnt even doing kung fu', but most of those people have never been in a real nasty fight.

Its sort of the same reason why olympic level fencing is kind of boring to watch, the movements are small, fast and don't really look like much to the casual observer. But the more traditional swashbuckling style fencing is fun to watch and is used in the movies. The extra show and signature moves become the liability at the highly competitive levels, but at the core, there is still the basic fundamentals being used.

Sorry for the rant, its just my opinion and observations on the matter of why its hard to find footage of 'real' kung fu techniques being used in a real fight or full contact competition.
Good luck with your health and your training.

-edit-
*paragraphs added for WaterDragon's reading enjoyment* :D (thanx dude)

Water Dragon

03-10-2003, 10:25 PM

Best Post Ever

--edit--

paragraphs woulda been nice though :D

Oso

03-11-2003, 04:04 AM

MW, good post. I would like to add this though.

In SOME instances I have found it easier to use more identifiably 'kung fu' moves on higher level fighters because, as apposed to a low level fighter, they will commit to thier attack more, giving greater energy with which to use as part of my counterattack.

This is admittably in school free sparring situations but it was the thought that came to my head in reading your post.

In all instances of bar fights that I've been in over 7 years as a bouncer, technique was pretty much reduced to short arm deflections and grabs to subdue. I only ever counterpunched as a bouncer but that was by choice. Although I think 'kung fu' training added to my ability to think clearly, have good base/root in these situations and overall good eye-hand coordination.

I'm not familiar with your background. Can I ask what you have trained in??

Royal Dragon

03-11-2003, 05:18 AM

I think this one is from my "Fight footage" topic on KFO

Personally, I think you are going to do what your trained to do. In the heat and speed of combat, it may not "look" like Kung Fu to the untrained eye, but it still is. If you look close, you can see it.

Kick Boxing (for example) has it's own principals. It is easy to see them when two similarly trained fighters compete. The same is with traditional Kung Fu.

If you cannot see real Kung Fu comming from a deducated long time player of the art, then it is because you have an untrained eye. You don't just suddenly start pefroming Kick Boxing principals in a fight when you have spent the last 10 years doing nothing but etching Kung Fu princials into your subconcious.

You can't get good at something you don't do. If you don't kick box, you won't be good at it, so when you fight, it is your Kung Fu that will be unconciously used. You can't help it because there is not time to think, and the mind and body WILL do what it's programed to do.

Just like you say you have seen real kung fu being applied, so have I and a lot of us. My point is that it becomes even harder to see clear techniques, stances, etc when there is the stress of uncooperative full contact. When you do see it, its probably because the fighters are playing along with the same game, as in they both consicously or nonconciously decided that they were going to fight 'kung fu style' together, or there is a big difference in skill level.

Reply]
I dissagree on this point. if anything, in the heat of things, it becomes MORE clear. You get a chance to see it all in action. It may be hapening faster, but the stances, power issueing, entry and footwork are all there. Remeber, you don't have time to think, the subconcious mind will automatically do what it's pre-programed to do. Your NOT going to suddenly become a kick boxer if all you have done is Kung Fu.

I am looking for Kung Fu fight footage that actually shows guys who only trained in Kung Fu.

Black Jack

03-11-2003, 08:33 AM

RD,

Two points. Having health problems suck so do what you got to do to get better. Though as Seven Star mentioned above that you might want to visit some local schools for some personal contact and free sparring.

I would recommend the Straight Blast gym in Elgin, its a JKD Concept and BJJ school which I know has open matt hours where people can get together and spar.

Second,

Kickboxing is kind of a generic term and it can be used broadly in that scope. Many systems of kickboxing were developed in various countries. Any claim that kickboxing as a form of fighting/self defense has been invented by a given people, both oriental or occidental, is inconsistent with historic facts. All its elements were known since time immemorial. They just have simply been put together in different ways to yield systems appropiate to the specific people, time and place of their inception.

Such as gung fu.

Just my thoughts.

Suntzu

03-11-2003, 08:50 AM

WOW 16 pages and still zip… I must admit wish someone would find some Kuoshu clips…

Knifefighter

03-11-2003, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by MutantWarrior
But if you throw in someone really dangerous who has a totally different game plan, a lot of the style points go right out the window. Yes, hopefully there are some fundamental kung fu skills being used, but they would be harder to see, and the fight would get ugly. This is the point where a lot of people would chime in and claim 'he wasnt even doing kung fu', but most of those people have never been in a real nasty fight.

Its sort of the same reason why olympic level fencing is kind of boring to watch, the movements are small, fast and don't really look like much to the casual observer.

But it still is recognized as fencing. You will still see parries, ripostes, half-beat hits, etc. Interesting that fencing, wrestling, boxing, BJJ, judo or any other competitive combative system will be easy to recognize whether done in practice, in competition, or in a fight. Even the novice BJJ, judo, or Muay Thai practitioner will perform easily recognizable techniques from their respective systems.

SanShou Guru

03-11-2003, 11:15 AM

For the Record Mutant Warrior sparring partners have a total of I believe 19 National San Shou Titles so even his sparring level can be higher then most people’s amateur competition level, at least on a skill level not an intensity one. His head coach (Jason Yee) is the ONLY person to my knowledge that has competed at the Kung Fu world Championships in both fighting and forms and placed in the top ten (score wise for forms, Bronze for fighting). So he has more traditional training then most people here and will be the first to tell you that he does not use the exact moves in fighting but the principles still apply.

I was going over some tapes of the 1997 Worlds from Rome and there were some fights with fighters using more traditional movements. Most would move around in their semi horse stance for a while picking shots then get croaked by a former soviet fighter. If I get the time I can digitize them. Not very exciting.

I used Hsing I principles in my fights against Cung that worked pretty well. He could not move me or throw me around much and the hard straight shots landed effectively, although not effectively enough since he still won. But tai chi principles helped me my whole career.

Royal Dragon

03-11-2003, 11:35 AM

I was going over some tapes of the 1997 Worlds from Rome and there were some fights with fighters using more traditional movements. Most would move around in their semi horse stance for a while picking shots then get croaked by a former soviet fighter. If I get the time I can digitize them. Not very exciting.

Reply]
This is not Kung Fu. I'd still like to see them though. I am going to see if there is a way to set up an e-mail account that can handle the transfer of large files. I get 5 addresses with my site, I think I can do it

Mutant

03-11-2003, 11:36 AM

Well I'm not saying that theres no kung fu technique left in a fight, quite the opposite actually. I'm saying that its deconstructed and doesnt look like many peoples stereotypical notion of kung fu.

Yes if you look closely you can see certain techniques, principles, footwork, etc.

I just believe there's an inverse ratio; the more pressure and danger, the less clear the 'style'.

Yes we should do what we train to do and drill into our minds and bodies; this can be good or bad depending on how youre training. This is why I think its dangerous to overly train forms and rely on them to save you in a fight. Some forms can be fine, even a lot of fun and can teach fundamentals. But one also needs to train the techniques much like a boxer or other style of full contact fighter would do, imho, because its techniques that are drilled as such that will be more useful and recognizable in a fight.

I think its the degrees of kung fu to be seen in a fight that we are debating. What makes this difficult is that there are so many different styles of kung fu and ideas about what it should look like in a fight, it is nearly impossible to establish a common point of reference.

===========================
Oso, to answer your question:
lets see, this goes back to the 80s (this is pathetic, i need to find a new hobby)...
2 years of TKD when i was a kid
3 years of karate and judo
1 year of Longfist & White Crane with Yang Jwing Ming
4 years of Wu Xing Quan (5 animals) with Sifu Larry Adams
3.5 years of Wing Chun (turning style) with Sifu Stanely Jue
1.5 years of training with Qinrong Yu
1 year of San Shou at Boston San Shou Kickboxing with Mr. SanShouGuru , Jason Yee & the rest of the crew

Oso

03-11-2003, 11:37 AM

SSG, It seemed like he probably had both traditional training and san shou. Just curious about what his traditional training was.

Archangel

03-11-2003, 11:46 AM

RD

"I dissagree on this point. if anything, in the heat of things, it becomes MORE clear. You get a chance to see it all in action. It may be hapening faster, but the stances, power issueing, entry and footwork are all there. Remeber, you don't have time to think, the subconcious mind will automatically do what it's pre-programed to do. Your NOT going to suddenly become a kick boxer if all you have done is Kung Fu."

I completely disagree with you on this point. Every fight I've ever seen with a traditionalist, (whether it was on video or live) the same thing happened. The second he got really hit, he lost his composure and began to flail. All of the fancy stances and all of these complex forms that they learned went out the window. Some things became really apparent to me,

a) These fighters have never really been hit and sparred full contact

b) When pressure is on and your facing an opponent that is really trying to hurt you. Most of what you've trained for goes out the window.

That is why boxers, wrestlers etc do so well. They practice and compete full contact, so they already have experience with an adrenaline dump and pressure. They also keep things SIMPLE AND BASIC.

Royal Dragon

03-11-2003, 12:48 PM

I completely disagree with you on this point. Every fight I've ever seen with a traditionalist, (whether it was on video or live) the same thing happened. The second he got really hit, he lost his composure and began to flail. All of the fancy stances and all of these complex forms that they learned went out the window. Some things became really apparent to me,

Reply]
Stances are not fancy, they are stances, and the DO get used, I see it all the time. Heck I've even seen them in UFC events, quite often as a matter of fact.

These fighters have never really been hit and sparred full contact

Reply]
Then they weren't traditnonal, they were modern "Playing" Traditional.

b) When pressure is on and your facing an opponent that is really trying to hurt you. Most of what you've trained for goes out the window.

Reply]
Not true, what yo have trained will be what you do when it's happening to furious to think. So long as you train right.

That is why boxers, wrestlers etc do so well. They practice and compete full contact, so they already have experience with an adrenaline dump and pressure.

Reply]

Traditional Kung Fu guys deal with the same stuff. Remeber, alot of what you see being presented as "Traditional" Kung Fu is not. It is modern. Either that, or it's Traditioanl skills only half taught because the use of moderm training methods is not as complete as the Old methods. The modern Kung Fu training methods don't spend enough time learning to apply thier skills. They just memorise them. In the "Olden times" (I love that phrase) they not only did what is done today, but they learned HOW to use it through live, resisting and unredictabe training methods. Some still do this today, but many donot.

They also keep things SIMPLE AND BASIC

I don't know man, BJJ guys have some prety sophisticated material in thier arsenal, and use it regularly to WIN.

Take Kung Fu's deep stances. The are not suposed to be used by siting in them, and waiting for an incomming attack. They are more live, and often find themselves employed in anti takedown defences, or in issueing leverage to perform throws and up roots. Often they are used to keep you on your feet wile following an opponent to the ground. To say they are useless, and not used is to admit your ignorance on thier applicatons.

It's all inhow and WHEN you use them that makes them effective.

Christopher M

03-11-2003, 01:08 PM

You can see Tim Cartmell's baguazhang "stances" in the standing portion of this: http://homepage.mac.com/mancheta/PhotoAlbum23.html

SifuAbel

03-11-2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by MutantWarrior
Well I'm not saying that theres no kung fu technique left in a fight, quite the opposite actually. I'm saying that its deconstructed and doesn't look like many peoples stereotypical notion of kung fu.

Yes if you look closely you can see certain techniques, principles, footwork, etc.

I agree. But in addition. I think its not really a deconstruction rather it becomes a more subtle expression of your training. The only way to see the true "kung fu" in good fights is to slow down the film and catch all the things you miss in a fast moving fight.

As for forms, If you have the advantage of training forms also, do it. Its more than just fun, its really an integral PART of training. Sparring and form work are like two hands shaking. One without the other looks plain crazy. Everyone does form work in either a grand(full routines) or a small (simple step drilling) way. Even in bagwork, if you have bad form , you'll break your hand.

I've also seen the "flailing contest" in tournament. Most TMA tournamemnts are filled with 1 or 2 year beginners who haven't solidified themselves yet in fighting. And yes , its always coming from those who don't sparr with contact regularly or at all. This is not an absolute though. Those that do spar with contact are not as afraid of getting hit and can use more of thier technique.

" I was going over some tapes of the 1997 Worlds from Rome and there were some fights with fighters using more traditional movements. Most would move around in their semi horse stance for a while picking shots then get croaked by a former soviet fighter."

(not a jibe)I don't think that was a good idea to begin with and its not what I would call a good experssion of kung fu. Moving around in any particular stance isn't what makes it kung fu. It should flow.

I think what RD wants is to see, as Kfighter would say, the more easily recognized techniques. Seeing more deflection into counterstriking and defense in general, more variety in hitting, using more angles and direction changes as part of the attack in stead of moving back and forth in a straight line, more continuity from one technique to the next instead of the singular "picking", not just "walking" in with straight legs , etc.

I say it does exist, you just got to slow it down to see it.

" I used Hsing I principles in my fights against Cung that worked pretty well. He could not move me or throw me around much and the hard straight shots landed effectively, although not effectively enough since he still won. But tai chi principles helped me my whole career."

Honest question. Was it the technique or was he just the better fighter that day?

Golden Arms

03-11-2003, 01:27 PM

man...this post just keeps making me have to shake my head in disbelief! First of all, there ARE a lot of kung fu schools, heck I would say most of them, that dont train to really fight. The simple fact is that there are two kinds of martial arts schools out there. The kind that have a lot of students and the kind that get down and dirty, make you work how hard you are really supposed to work out, and train to harden the body and mind with realistic fighting anything goes mentality. These schools usually average ~ 5 people per class, and dont often make barely enough money to get by. Ask yourself, if you run a school, do you want to be able to do it full time and not have to work a second job and be there every night, or do you want to make some decent $$ and make people happy? For a lot of people out there, having a lighter contact school that teaches a little and doesnt have high insurance premiums is preferrable in the real world.

My point here is this: Is there a lot of crappy kung fu,karate,tae kwon do, etc. schools out there..YEP. Are all of them that way? Nope. Just in my class I have 3 guys that have been doing Hung Gar for more than 15 years 3 times a week on average, and their hands and legs feel like stone. They break out stuff all the time...does it look like exactly what a form looks like? Nope..does it look like kung fu..yeah it does. The problem I think is this: Kung fu takes a lot longer to get good at, and train realistically for, and the time commitment is so heavy that most people dont want to go through that much pain, sacrifice, etc for something they are probably never going to use in real life, so they call it good enough. But when you DO stick it out, and if you have some talent, well its nasty stuff.

Grappling seems to have a lot more serious practioners on the whole..at least judo I can say from experience does. But they also dont have to get hit in the face and ribs full force day to day to train at close to full force, so you make the connection.

One of my sihings has an old painting of an army in china, with the cavalry, footmen, archers etc all in formation, and in front is ONE lone guy with no weapons, and little armor on. Yet he lined up in front as the first one to engage the enemy. That is what you should train to be if you are serious about kung fu. But are most people going to devote their bodies, lack of personal life, etc to this "war" that is never going to happen? Rarely. But if they do train that way, its pretty incredible what they are capeable of.

Summary: Kung Fu does a LOT of things well, but because of this the amount of commitment it takes to get proficient and bloodthirsty enough to use it the intended way is prohibitive to most in modern society.

Opinions please :)

Royal Dragon

03-11-2003, 01:54 PM

Summary: Kung Fu does a LOT of things well, but because of this the amount of commitment it takes to get proficient and bloodthirsty enough to use it the intended way is prohibitive to most in modern society.

Reply]
I agree. BUT, there are alot of guys who DO train the way it's intended. See, once the Kung Fu bug bites you, you can't help yourself. It's like an addiction. I have seen plenty of talent. I know it's out there. I just can't seem to find anyone who thought to tape it,or if they did, they haven't though to put it up on the net.

SanShou Guru

03-11-2003, 02:04 PM

Abel

" I used Hsing I principles in my fights against Cung that worked pretty well. He could not move me or throw me around much and the hard straight shots landed effectively, although not effectively enough since he still won. But tai chi principles helped me my whole career.

Honest question. Was it the technique or was he just the better fighter that day?
"

Well a combination of things; should have used the technique more, should have fought harder, he wanted it more and he managed to stay a step ahead of me. Our fights were always close but he always had that little more effort and put more on the line each time.

Nevermind

03-11-2003, 02:09 PM

Good post Golden Arms. (By the way, I was going to use that name but you had it already. :mad: ) The grappling arts have a big advantage as far as training goes. They can train their techniques full throttle without doing long term damage to their bodies or to their training partners. I think that Kung Fu can be for everybody but most people (at least in the U.S.) don't have the patience to withstand that long period of time one has to endure to make it effective. This is neither right or wrong in my opinion. Just another case of different strokes for different folks.

It all comes down to your reason for training. I personally opt for the long term benefits that Kung Fu offers, but that's just me. If I were into competition (which is fun, but I don't have the time) or if I had a job that called for me to fight on a regular basis (no chance of me being attacked here at my cubicle. :D ) maybe I would be looking for that "quick fix".

Archangel

03-11-2003, 03:38 PM

RD,

"Stances are not fancy, they are stances, and the DO get used, I see it all the time. Heck I've even seen them in UFC events, quite often as a matter of fact."

Can you give me some examples then please. I've seen most of the UFC's and have not see a high percentage of traditional stances being used effectively.

"Then they weren't traditional, they were modern "Playing" Traditional"

What are some examples of these "Real Traditional" schools then. When do they face an opponent that's really trying to hurt them.

"Not true, what yo have trained will be what you do when it's happening to furious to think. So long as you train right."

No they don't I've seen it countless times. examples

-BUD SMITH (KICKBOXING) VS. CHRIS BASS (KARATE) JV1

Chris Bass, after getting rocked by a jab cross, starts to put his hands up and bounce around like a kickboxer.

-JASON DELUCIA (5 ANIMALS) VS. SCOTT BAKER (WC KUNG FU)

Fights hits the ground after every clinch between 2 Kung Fu fighters.

And then there was my own experience. The first time I sparred full contact in boxing, most of my training went out the window. I panicked and forgot even the simplest techniques that I was taught.

"I don't know man, BJJ guys have some prety sophisticated material in thier arsenal, and use it regularly to WIN"

Really????, having studied BJJ myself I can tell you through my experience that sticking to basics is what wins a BJJ match.

"Take Kung Fu's deep stances. The are not suposed to be used by siting in them, and waiting for an incomming attack. They are more live, and often find themselves employed in anti takedown defences, or in issueing leverage to perform throws and up roots. Often they are used to keep you on your feet wile following an opponent to the ground. To say they are useless, and not used is to admit your ignorance on thier applicatons."

Well by all means then, I'm willing to see your side. Give me some examples, where I can see for myself.

Golden Arms

03-11-2003, 03:49 PM

Royal, just my .02 but why dont you just keep looking for videos and stop worrying about proving to anyone whether Kung Fu of any sort ever actually works. Not that I really think you are too worried about it ;)

I think its actually a pretty cool advantage in the same ways that BJJ guys have an advantage, in that the first time one of them, if ever, sees some real stuff come at them, they are not going to know what the **** hit them. :D I just like to laugh, because after reading e-budo, and then coming here, you wonder why almost ALL the people that bother to post here dont really practice traditional kung fu. And respect goes out to all that do.

And to those that dont want to think it works....There are people out there that train, and hard. To them its just as funny to hear you say that their kung fu doesnt work as it is to hear that BJJ doesnt work to a grappler. Keep that in mind.

Royal Dragon

03-11-2003, 04:00 PM

Can you give me some examples then please. I've seen most of the UFC's and have not see a high percentage of traditional stances being used effectively.

Reply]
Don Frey used to drop guys, come along the back side of their head, and in a deep Horse stance apply Monkey pounds the mortar on his opponents head. Classic Kung Fu usage.

I have seen this kind of stuff plent of times in UFC fights, unfortunetly, I don't own the tapes, so I can't go through them and site specific examples (Fight dates and fighters etc...)

That being said, I think most poeple who watch fights are looking at the hands, and feet and little else or they would be seeing this stuff.

What are some examples of these "Real Traditional" schools then. When do they face an opponent that's really trying to hurt them.

Reply]
In a real school, once a basic arsenal is well learned, it is time to gear up and fight it out. The safety gear prevents catastrophic injury for Kung Fu, the same way is does for MMA.

BUD SMITH (KICKBOXING) VS. CHRIS BASS (KARATE) JV1

Chris Bass, after getting rocked by a jab cross, starts to put his hands up and bounce around like a kickboxer.

Reply]
Then he was trained to bounce like that by his Karate teacher. I have been rocked hard in fights too, I don't bounce. I use the footwork I was trained in.

And then there was my own experience. The first time I sparred full contact in boxing, most of my training went out the window. I panicked and forgot even the simplest techniques that I was taught.

Reply]
Because it was your first time, and you PANICKED. A well trained fighter who has mastered his art does not panic. I have never seen a Gracie panick. Mental calm comes with experiance. I'm not talking about "Deer frozen in the headlights" type of panic, I'm talking the fiercenes and furry of combat. When it's moving too fast to think, your sub concious will do what you have trained to do. If it does not, you have not trained enough to make your skills sink to the unconcious level.

Really????, having studied BJJ myself I can tell you through my experience that sticking to basics is what wins a BJJ match.

Reply]
I have seen Bjj guys do some pretty sophisticated locks and submissions. If I did those exact moves in the air, strung them together as a long form, in a Kung Fu uniform, you would say I was performing "Fancy" moves that are no good for fighting.

Well by all means then, I'm willing to see your side. Give me some examples, where I can see for myself.

Reply]
I'm work'n on it. That is the point of this thread, to find that sort of internet compatable proof for everyone to compare. I have seen this stuff work live, but I need some FOOTAGE of it for just such occasaions as this argument. So far all anyone has offered is forms, or some still shots done like a slide show. I appreacieate the effort, but that one wasn't what I was looking for.

I just can't belive there is SO MUCH FORMS footage, but little to no actual Fight footage. It's not like Kung Fu guys don't fight. There are plenty of local and even natioanal tournaments like Kuo Shuo where Kung Fu guys DO fight, and actually use thier Kung Fu as well. It just seems there has been 0 to no interest in promoting the "Fight" part of the art, only the forms, or mear application demmo's.

Archangel

03-11-2003, 04:20 PM

RD

"Don Frey used to drop guys, come along the back side of their head, and in a deep Horse stance apply Monkey pounds the mortar on his opponents head. Classic Kung Fu usage."

Really, what Kung Fu training has Done Frye had. You've stated that people do what they were trained to do. Don Frye, to my knowledge has trained in wrestling, boxing, judo and now some shootfighting. Where did this Monkey Pounds come from??

"In a real school, once a basic arsenal is well learned, it is time to gear up and fight it out. The safety gear prevents catastrophic injury for Kung Fu, the same way is does for MMA."

The only safety gear a MMA fighter wears is a cup and a mouth guard. Is this what "Real" Kung Fu fighters do as well; they should do extremely well in MMA then don't you think?

"Then he was trained to bounce like that by his Karate teacher. I have been rocked hard in fights too, I don't bounce. I use the footwork I was trained in."

No he wasn't, he was trained in Shotokan and I saw clips of him in his training sessions. No bouncing, just deep stances with very rigid form.

"Because it was your first time, and you PANICKED. A well trained fighter who has mastered his art does not panic. I have never seen a Gracie panick. Mental calm comes with experiance. I'm not talking about "Deer frozen in the headlights" type of panic, I'm talking the fiercenes and furry of combat. When it's moving too fast to think, your sub concious will do what you have trained to do. If it does not, you have not trained enough to make your skills sink to the unconcious level."

A fighter will have crisper cleaner technique in training when there is nothing on the line. When there is stress, pressure and real danger adrenaline will kick in and a fighter will lose a lot of his crispness and technique. Only if you've had a lot of sparring against 100% resisting oppononets will you be able to handle the stress of a fight like you stated.

"I have seen Bjj guys do some pretty sophisticated locks and submissions. If I did those exact moves in the air, strung them together as a long form, in a Kung Fu uniform, you would say I was performing "Fancy" moves that are no good for fighting."

Well of course, those moves were not meant for the air; They are ground submissions that are meant to be applied one at a time. The principles behind the locks are REALLY basic, here's the secret - bend the joint where it isn't supposed to bend.

"I just can't belive there is SO MUCH FORMS footage, but little to no actual Fight footage"

Really... I'm not. If you want to see some fight footage there is a website I can show you. But I don't really think you'll like the outcome of those fights.

Golden Arms

03-11-2003, 04:44 PM

I like how Archangel conveniently doesnt refer to ANY of my posts. And I know its fun to refer to the UFC as the bible, but how many chipped teeth, bone spurs, and healed broken bones do YOU have to show for all the fights I am sure you have been in against "wimpy" kung fu guys that LIKE to fight? Care to compare? :D

There is one truth...NOBODY likes to be choked out/have their joints broken. AND..NOBODY likes to get hit as hard as a lot of good strikers train to hit. So unless you want to step up, why dont you just stay sitting down?

Royal Dragon

03-11-2003, 04:48 PM

Really, what Kung Fu training has Done Frye had. You've stated that people do what they were trained to do. Don Frye, to my knowledge has trained in wrestling, boxing, judo and now some shootfighting. Where did this Monkey Pounds come from??

Reply]
I have no idea where he picked it up from. He may have develped it on his own. Still, It was done with proper stance, and technique though. iI was Kung Fu in principal and action.

The only safety gear a MMA fighter wears is a cup and a mouth guard. Is this what "Real" Kung Fu fighters do as well; they should do extremely well in MMA then don't you think?

Reply]
Mostly I used open finger gloves, with head gear in addition to the cup and mouth piece. Obviously certian techniques have to be pulled, the same way MMA guys go for submissions instead of full breaks, but it's done well.

No he wasn't, he was trained in Shotokan and I saw clips of him in his training sessions. No bouncing, just deep stances with very rigid form.

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Your missing something. He WAS taught to do that somewhere in his history. I was too at some point. I dropped it because you are too suseptable to take downs when you do that.

A fighter will have crisper cleaner technique in training when there is nothing on the line. When there is stress, pressure and real danger adrenaline will kick in and a fighter will lose a lot of his crispness and technique. Only if you've had a lot of sparring against 100% resisting oppononets will you be able to handle the stress of a fight like you stated.

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That is my point.

Well of course, those moves were not meant for the air; They are ground submissions that are meant to be applied one at a time. The principles behind the locks are REALLY basic, here's the secret - bend the joint where it isn't supposed to bend.

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The same with Kung Fu. What most people "THINK" is flashy, fantastic overly sophistcated techniques are still run on pretty simple principals. They only "Look" more complicated than they are because people don't understand them vey well, and can't figure out how they work. We know how they work though, and it's all pretty simple to us.

Really... I'm not. If you want to see some fight footage there is a website I can show you. But I don't really think you'll like the outcome of those fights.

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Show me the site then.

Archangel

03-11-2003, 04:54 PM

Oh Please Golden arms,

This is an internet forum. What would you have people do, thump their chests and talk about how big and bad they are. What possible good would that do here, in an arena of ideas. The reason I use the UFC and MMA fights in general is simple. It is on video tape and the internet; it can be verified without any sort of doubt. Would you prefer people to use their own anecdotes of how they defeated 5 guys at once without any witnesses? I prefer basing my opnion on fights that we can actually view and witness.

Royal Dragon

03-11-2003, 04:57 PM

I prefer basing my opnion on fights that we can actually view and witness.

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That's why I'm looking for good Kung Fu fight footage for my site.

Archangel

03-11-2003, 05:05 PM

RD,

"I have no idea where he picked it up from. He may have develped it on his own. Still, It was done with proper stance, and technique though. iI was Kung Fu in principal and action"

I know where it he got it from, his wrestling, his Judoand his boxing; and since they are the arts that he trained in I think that they should get the credit for his success.

"Mostly I used open finger gloves, with head gear in addition to the cup and mouth piece. Obviously certian techniques have to be pulled, the same way MMA guys go for submissions instead of full breaks, but it's done well."

Well then you guys should do extrememly well in MMA. Why don't you guys compete and then you'll have the footage that you need.

"Your missing something. He WAS taught to do that somewhere in his history. I was too at some point. I dropped it because you are too suseptable to take downs when you do that."

Let's say that he did learn it or maybe he even picked it up from watching TV. Why would he go against 10 + years of Shotokan training and put his hands up and stay on the balls of his feet.

"The same with Kung Fu. What most people "THINK" is flashy, fantastic overly sophistcated techniques are still run on pretty simple principals. They only "Look" more complicated than they are because people don't understand them vey well, and can't figure out how they work. We know how they work though, and it's all pretty simple to us."

Well, first things first. We have to see them work against a 100% resisting opponent before we begin to disect them.

"Show me the site then"

http://www.bullshido.us

go to the downloads section