Shaolin-Do Or American Kempo?

[Johnny Hot Shot]

I have been reading alot about how Shaolin-do is not "really kung fu" or that it is not a valid martial art somehow? It appears to me that the largest school of this so called Shaolin do is USSD. A very large franchise of MA schools primarily on the east and west coast of the US. After hours of reaserch I have come to a conclusion about USSD and their so called Shaolin do style. It's not shaolin Kung fu, its American Kempo. The founder Nick Cerio had studied under George Pesare. And later on in his martial arts career studied under Ed Parker (American Kempo). Now it is my belief that since the school has become a franchise and motivated more by the quest for the almighty green back it has tryed to capitalize on the popularity of the Shaolin name. So my conclusion is that USSD and their Shaolin do is nothing more than a money making scheme. If you are a student of USSD and can dicredit my allegations please try. Any other Martial artists Please add any comments or facts as I am sure mine have holes in them. Are USSD students proud of their school? Speak up. :confused:

[Radhnoti]

USSD and Shaolin-Do are two seperate schools.
Hope this helps. :)

-Radhnoti

[Johnny Hot Shot]

USSD instructors are saying that their style is Shaolin-do or Shaolin kenpo. Why do none of the USSD students defend their school? Every form I have read concerning USSD has been negative no one ever says that it is a good school the students are excellent Martial artist or that the instructors are really good. I'm sure that there must be some USSD students reading these posts, are they ashamed? Do they not know about their style's history other than what some graduate from the USSD academy has told them? [(USSD pumps out BB "Instructors" in 2 years)] Do they not have enough knowledge to defend their school from all of the negative press? :o

[Abstract]

man-I went to USSD for awhile. They are a different school than 'shaolin do' people-but, I feel they are doing the same thing-using the shaolin name to get more students who want to learn 'kung fu' & can't really tell the difference. They did teach what they called Kung Fu at the one I attended, but i've seen people practice REAL kung fu at various places & finally my conscience wouldn't let me go there any longer. I found a Wing Chun kwoon completely by luck & signed up, and promptly left USSd. The kempo i learned wasn't 'shaolin' as they like to say...nothin' Chinese about it---just plain ol' American Kempo. If that's what someone wants-cool. that was ok..BUT they shouldn't deceive themselves into thinking they're learning TRUE shaolin kung fu in any way shape or form. I have friends both american /chinese & japanese(like that matters but...) who've studied traditional CMA & traditional Japanese Karate, we ALL agree-USSD/shaolin-do---are McDojos. And to be honest, at two of my belt rank tests, during a reaction drill where we were supposed to use a technique(s) on multiple attackers, one guy DUCKED AND COVERED HIS HEAD!!!! and what's more disconcerting--they GAVE him the next level belt!!! I couldn't take that...this cat now has a SERIOUS false sense of security & is gonna get pounced if he tries to defend himself...sad sad..and what's worse is that he truly said this "now i REALLY know how to fight.."
:rolleyes: (i am not making that up-honest)AND.....
no dis to anybody who goes there. If that's your only option...but I say look alittle harder..i did & got lucky. u never know. :D

[This message was edited by Abstract on 04-26-01 at 05:50 PM.]

[Unknown]

hmm...I've never actually seen USSD or Shaolin-Do, I've only read what people say about it here. Before I came here I thought about training in it but now I'm not so sure. Everybody here talks so bad about it, but I've never actually seen any negative articles or anything about it on the internet yet. If someone can tell me some sites where I can read negative articles about Shaolin-Do I'd appreciate it.

[UberShaman]

Do a search on deja-news or any other newsgroup search engine and you'll have plenty to read on the subject,

[J]

Here's some other kung fu schools to visit:

Bak Fu Pai - www.bakfupai.com (http://www.bakfupai.com), southern short hands system. Miramar, La Jolla, Mira Mesa area

Choy Li Fut - White Dragon schools, check phone book. They're all over (5 or 6 schools in SD)

Choy Li Fut - Frank Primicias, Poway and Escondido

Hsing Yi - www.hsing-i.com (http://www.hsing-i.com), Mike Patterson in La Mesa

7 Star Mantis - Mike Desargo in La Mesa

S. Dragon and Liu He Ba Fa - Steve Martin in La Mesa, there's a webpage Sojourner's something


I personally recommend Bak Fu Pai. If you visit, tell them that I sent you.

Good luck.

[Ground Dragon]

I study Chung Yen Shaolin under Hiang The', brother to Sin The' who is the head of the shaolin do schools. We share some of the same material as shaolin do, however, if I was in a different city and had to choose between a shaolin do school and something else, I would choose something else.
Check out the very long thread on shaolin do in this forum. There is some good information in there.

[Johnny Hot Shot]

Yes I have read through this thread several times. I started this thread really to call out any practicing USSD students to try and defentd their Honor as well as for any X USSD students to voice their opinions and inside knowledge. :)

[Radhnoti]

No offense Grounddragon, but from the website I have access to, written by a second black in your system, Chung Yen Shaolin and Shaolin-Do have exactly the same material. Just different historical outlooks...both schools ignore the fact that the other brother exists as far as I can tell. Why would you suggest something other than what is basically the style you're studying? At least for all practical purposes...?
:confused:

-Radhnoti

[Ground Dragon]

You are right in one aspect, Sin The' does not publicly acknowledge his brother's existence. Nor does he acknowledge that Ie Chang Ming was his grandfather. In fact in Sin The's book there is a picture of a painting done of Ie Chang Ming with Master Hiang as a young boy standing at his side, except they cut off Master Hiang's head in the photo.
On that website you mentioned at one time, Sin The' was even mentioned, it even went into some detail if I remember correctly. That isn't the case now. Master Hiang wants his own identity apart from his brother and wants his own style's identity.
As far as the material, some is the same, it could even be said a lot. On the other hand a lot is different. We have some internal sets, a lot of bird, dragon, hook sword and double dagger sets that they don't have. Master Hiang teaches 18 tai peng sets, Sin The' teaches one. On the other hand, Sin The' has been teaching out a lot of seven star praying mantis lately, snake pa kua , a series of forms for the 8 drunken immortals, among other things, that Master Hiang doesn't teach.
And our historical accounts are almost completely different. :cool:

[This message was edited by Ground Dragon on 04-27-01 at 03:37 PM.]

[This message was edited by Ground Dragon on 04-27-01 at 03:43 PM.]

[SanHeChuan]

what is the URL to hiangs site

"Civilize the mind but make savage the body"

[Radhnoti]

First off, Ubershaman thanks for a brilliant idea. I've found a WEALTH of info in deja news...maybe enough to sway my opinion (slightly, about certain claims) if the guy can send me the documents he claims to have. (He's a fellow Chung Yen Shaolin student GD.)
SanHeChuan, the only site I've been able to find is a student's site the address is:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/3588/
GroundDragon, I believe that all the forms this fellow speaks of learning to become a second black is within the Shaolin-Do system as well. I admit to SOME uncertainty since I don't have the site and the book in front of me to check, but I'm fairly certain this is so. My point was/is how can you condemn a style that is almost identical to the one you study now? Just the bad blood between the brothers? I'm honestly not trying to start an arguement here, just curious as to how you think. ;)

-Radhnoti

[Unknown]

sway your opinion of what claims?

[Radhnoti]

I'll let you know if I get the documents. ;)

-Radhnoti

[dragon797]

The differences between the two groups is not one of material (although there are major differences in the way much of the material is taught) but in how one side has exaggerated or distorted HOW MUCH material they have learned and HOW the material was learned.

I am personally amazed at all of this because the real story should be more than enough. Why did it need to be embellished in the first place? The exaggerations have destroyed Sin's credibility in the CMA community and Hiang's group suffers as a result because most people do not know the difference.

[Radhnoti]

...And the people who have an idea of the differences are quick to point out that your Grandmaster was a major part of Shaolin-Do for a good, long while. And in all probability the majority of your style's masters were Shaolin-Do blackbelts when they left...and it's unlikely they "relearned" things the way you say Chung Yen Shaolin is taught now. ;)
Look, I understand that your Grandmaster wants to establish his own identity...as well as the identity of his art...but you're throwing rocks from a glass house. You can't build UP your Grandmaster by tearing the person he once acknowledged as his "boss" down.
As an aside, I'm starting to believe that the "irrefutable proof" I'm waiting on does not exist. If it does, in the interests of openmindedness (yes, yes...I know, that one MAY be too good for anyone to pass up...but I think I'm openminded :D ) I'll post the documents on this forum. I've lost faith in the guy...but he may still surprise me.

-Radhnoti

[reemul]

Shaolin Do is not Shaolin kungfu, give it up.

[Radhnoti]

:rolleyes:
Thanks for the constructive post there big guy.

-Radhnoti

[BeiKongHui]

Constructive or not it's the truth.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

[dragon797]

Evidence that some of the material taught by Hiang is different from the way it is taught by Sin's group was seen in a video tape made of Sin's recent tournament in Lexington. One of Hiang's senior students who learned material from both men begining in the 70's saw several forms being performed on the tape and said that many were being done quite differently than the way he originally learned them and the way his group continues to practice them now.

Radhnoti, this is not a flame as Hiang's student made no criticism of how well the forms were done in terms of power, stances, spirit, etc, JUST that the movements were different. He actually complimented many things he saw.

[Psirus]

I saw some "Shaolin-do" video clips in teh kung fu forum...wow, it was FAKE in terms of shaolin kung fu...gah, very fake, heh. It is NOT kung fu.

- Psirus

[The Willow Sword]

Well you are right,,Shaolin-DO is NOT shaolin kung-fu. it is SHAOLIN-Do kung fu. its origins are from the shaolin temple in fujian. its grandmasters have handed down the teachings three generations. Grandmaster Sin The' holds the lineage. He has as ,well as the school, modernized the shaolin ways. there are karate like elements to the system. it is not a school of silk pajamas or robes and shaved heads and incense in the hallway. it is a simple school that has continued to exist for years as has many other schools in this country. the school does not concern itself with ego posturing and trashing of other ways. the school uses belts and a karate ranking system(the modernized aspects).
the school has MANY students. if it were a "McDojo" you would see one in EVERY TOWN IN AMERICA. but you dont. despite the claims against the school and its grandmaster, people have come and gone just like with any other school in America. i have heard it all for years about this school and i hope that this objective yet supportive opinion finally shuts up the trolls and the students can continue to discuss subjects in this forum with out the scrutiny of others who DO NOT RESPECT. yes there will be negative replies to this,,ive heard them all. save your typing skills. unless you have something positive and respectful to write.
many respects,,,the willow sword

[sk girl]

I have been reading alot about how Shaolin-do is not "really kung fu" or that it is not a valid martial art somehow? It appears to me that the largest school of this so called Shaolin do is USSD. A very large franchise of MA schools primarily on the east and west coast of the US. After hours of reaserch I have come to a conclusion about USSD and their so called Shaolin do style. It's not shaolin Kung fu, its American Kempo. The founder Nick Cerio had studied under George Pesare. And later on in his martial arts career studied under Ed Parker (American Kempo). Now it is my belief that since the school has become a franchise and motivated more by the quest for the almighty green back it has tryed to capitalize on the popularity of the Shaolin name. So my conclusion is that USSD and their Shaolin do is nothing more than a money making scheme. If you are a student of USSD and can dicredit my allegations please try. Any other Martial artists Please add any comments or facts as I am sure mine have holes in them. Are USSD students proud of their school? Speak up. :confused:

Yes Charles Mattera is the con man of the martial arts IMHO.

The only kung fu you will learn at Mattera's / Villari kempo is how to take your money form and give to some fat ussd master.

[MasterKiller]

Well you are right,,Shaolin-DO is NOT shaolin kung-fu. it is SHAOLIN-Do kung fu. its origins are from the shaolin temple in fujian. its grandmasters have handed down the teachings three generations. Grandmaster Sin The' holds the lineage. He has as ,well as the school, modernized the shaolin ways. there are karate like elements to the system. it is not a school of silk pajamas or robes and shaved heads and incense in the hallway. it is a simple school that has continued to exist for years as has many other schools in this country. the school does not concern itself with ego posturing and trashing of other ways. the school uses belts and a karate ranking system(the modernized aspects).
the school has MANY students. if it were a "McDojo" you would see one in EVERY TOWN IN AMERICA. but you dont. despite the claims against the school and its grandmaster, people have come and gone just like with any other school in America. i have heard it all for years about this school and i hope that this objective yet supportive opinion finally shuts up the trolls and the students can continue to discuss subjects in this forum with out the scrutiny of others who DO NOT RESPECT. yes there will be negative replies to this,,ive heard them all. save your typing skills. unless you have something positive and respectful to write.
many respects,,,the willow sword

bwahahahah

[Dim Wit Mak]

Personally, I make it a point to not criticize schools, systems or instructors. If someone were attacking a school I liked on an internet forum, I would not get in a p _ _ _ _ _ g contest because, in case you haven't noticed, no one ever wins in the war of words. Do a Shou Shu or Shaolin Do search if you don't believe me. Now, if someone were to enter the kwoon with a physical challenge, that would be a different matter.

I will say this. If someone can find a good Bak Fu Pai or Choy Li Fut school, he need not look any further for a good system to study. I have heard very good things about the Bak Fu Pai instruction in San Diego.

When I see people like Bak Fu Pai's Doo Wai criticized, I take it with a grain of salt. People should study what they want and not take the negative things they hear to heart. Martial arts are not "one size fits all".

[TenTigers]

why arent there any records of Sin The's art in Fukien? Of all the styles that came from Fukien Siu-Lum, how come nobody but you guys and your Vietnamese teachers have the only connection to the hairy guy? Nobody in ANY Fukien Siu-Lum art ever heard of him. Please explain this. Or simply admit that Sin The, is from Vietnam, and never learned Siu-Lum from anyone connected with Fukien Siu-Lum Ji. BTW- there aren't any actual proven records that Fukien Siu-Lum Ji even existed.

[MasterKiller]

why arent there any records of Sin The's art in Fukien? Of all the styles that came from Fukien Siu-Lum, how come nobody but you guys and your Vietnamese teachers have the only connection to the hairy guy? Nobody in ANY Fukien Siu-Lum art ever heard of him. Please explain this. Or simply admit that Sin The, is from Vietnam, and never learned Siu-Lum from anyone connected with Fukien Siu-Lum Ji. BTW- there aren't any actual proven records that Fukien Siu-Lum Ji even existed.

Sin is from Indonesia....

[Mega-Foot]

Wrong. Everyone knows sin comes from Eden.

[Judge Pen]

Who dug up these bones? That was a blast from the past.

[kwaichang]

Hey we are still here , hey anybody there hey hey hey. Whew that was close for a minute there I thought SD didnt exist. KC

[Mega-Foot]

David CArridine?

Wow. I'm awestruck. I really loved your show, mate.

[The Willow Sword]

Posted By MasterKiller

bwahahahah


I DOUBLE that Bwahahaha. Sheesh that was back in the Naive days. Another Dead Horse Dug up and put on display. It embarrasses me to read what i wrote back when i was Standing up for the school. It embarrasses me to read some of the things i have written when i discovered the,in my opinion, Fabrication in the lineage and removed myself from the school.

I sent a Letter to Sin The' with the Li Po sui pics and asked about them, i thought my letter was pretty diplomatic and respectful. But i never got a response back, dont know if the address i was given was correct, i was told it was so i am just going on that it was received Read and discarded. Whatever the case i did what i said i would do, asked my questions directly(in Letter anyways) and here as well. I have stayed away from the tournaments and SD gatherings around Austin(as i was TOLD to do by Joe Shaefer) I have retained and kept the videos i have of the training i did along with everyone else at the time and have not distributed them to anyone(although i have had several requests to sell them and to send them to others)
I have Maintained my integrity throughout ALL of this albeit that my anger sometimes tarnishes the integrity but it has remained in tact nonetheless. I have met the challenges i have put forth, and have not backed down from anything that has been put forth to me.
I feel good in everything and feel SOLID in everything that i have accomplished and i feel thankfull for my failures, they have been my greatest lessons in life. Much Gratitude and Thanks to ALL who have supported me and all who have Kicked my A$$. You Never compromise your values and your heart, no matter what, even if it leads to your demise you speak your truth and in doing so you do no wrong.
Peace To All, even the Sd'ers, Sincerely Jason Bratcher(The Willow Sword)

[Judge Pen]

Posted By MasterKiller

bwahahahah


I DOUBLE that Bwahahaha. Sheesh that was back in the Naive days. Another Dead Horse Dug up and put on display. It embarrasses me to read what i wrote back when i was Standing up for the school. It embarrasses me to read some of the things i have written when i discovered the,in my opinion, Fabrication in the lineage and removed myself from the school.

I sent a Letter to Sin The' with the Li Po sui pics and asked about them, i thought my letter was pretty diplomatic and respectful. But i never got a response back, dont know if the address i was given was correct, i was told it was so i am just going on that it was received Read and discarded. Whatever the case i did what i said i would do, asked my questions directly(in Letter anyways) and here as well. I have stayed away from the tournaments and SD gatherings around Austin(as i was TOLD to do by Joe Shaefer) I have retained and kept the videos i have of the training i did along with everyone else at the time and have not distributed them to anyone(although i have had several requests to sell them and to send them to others)
I have Maintained my integrity throughout ALL of this albeit that my anger sometimes tarnishes the integrity but it has remained in tact nonetheless. I have met the challenges i have put forth, and have not backed down from anything that has been put forth to me.
I feel good in everything and feel SOLID in everything that i have accomplished and i feel thankfull for my failures, they have been my greatest lessons in life. Much Gratitude and Thanks to ALL who have supported me and all who have Kicked my A$$. You Never compromise your values and your heart, no matter what, even if it leads to your demise you speak your truth and in doing so you do no wrong.
Peace To All, even the Sd'ers, Sincerely Jason Bratcher(The Willow Sword)

Jason,

We don't always see eye to eye, but I respect what you said in this post. As for the letter, send it certified mail, return receipt next time. :p