Sifu Joe Keit vs. Shaolin Monk [Archive]

freedom76

03-02-2003, 09:44 PM

Rather than listening to rumors, could somebody please tell me when and where Sifu Keit beat a Shaolin Monk in a sparring tournament? Also, was it a full contact tournament and what was the Monk's name? (Please tell me how you came by this information too) I've noticed that Sifu Keit posts on this forum, so if possible, I'd like to get the truth from him. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.

"Death to rumors, especially the false ones."

Eddie

03-02-2003, 11:45 PM

Joe Keit is a good friend of mine and I have never seen him say he beat a shaolin monk at sparring. He did, at tournament 2000, beat a shaolin monk at traditional forms. But even if he did beat a shaolin monk at sparring, whats the big deal?
Dude, instead of worrieng about other people's achievements, why not do as Joe does, and rather practice your kung fu skill than post here. We dont see him post here anymore. He is probably training to improve his kung fu.

freedom76

03-03-2003, 10:15 AM

Eddie,
Why are you so angry? To judge me onone post? Wow, I wonder what you've missed from your Sifu. Peace.l

monk weed

03-03-2003, 10:32 AM

I saw the tournament 2000 video featuring those shaolin monks and they looked like they were just kids. I doubt that any of them sparred during that tournament. I'll talk to a wah lum friend of mine that was at that tournament to see if any of them sparred.

flyingeagle

03-03-2003, 11:31 AM

I was actually in Orlando for the tournament in question. Not only did he not fight the monk in sparring, he was unable to even win his division. However, he did perform well in forms, which enabled him to compete for Grand Champion. When competing for the overall title, his own sifu, Li Siu Hung, was one of the judges. This was widely known at the tournament and highly criticized. As I recall, there was actual booing when it was announced that he won.

Fu-Pow

03-03-2003, 11:42 AM

I was actually in Orlando for the tournament in question. Not only did he not fight the monk in sparring, he was unable to even win his division..

Hey everyone has a bad day.

However, he did perform well in forms, which enabled him to compete for Grand Champion..

LKH students are known as good performers.

When competing for the overall title, his own sifu, Li Siu Hung, was one of the judges. This was widely known at the tournament and highly criticized. As I recall, there was actual booing when it was announced that he won

Why were the people so worried about who "won" and "lost"?
Tournaments are kind of silly really and taken way to seriously. If you don't like politics DON"T GO.

Its a good place to show off your style and if you're lucky to find a good sparring match.
If you go in with anymore expectation than that then you're setting yourself up for dissappointment.

CLFNole

03-03-2003, 12:13 PM

I was a judge at the tournament and in all fairness he was disqualified from his fighting division because the guy he fought ran straight into his fist and his nose was bloodied. The so-called monk he competed against did some boring wushu form with all the pretty posses but it wasn't a traditional form. He deserved to win as he was better. All the "star trek" people may have been dissapointed because the "monk" didn't win but thats life.

Who cares anyway just leave the guy alone. And so what if his sifu was a judge there were like 9 judges in total. None of the "monks" sparred anyhow.

Peace.

P.S. By the way that was like 3 years ago so why the sudden interest now?

yutyeesam

03-03-2003, 01:58 PM

CLFNole-
Was it Star Trek or Star Wars? Was this the same event where people dressed as Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker?

I think the reason why this conversation started is probably b/c at the beginning of the instructional tapes Lee Siu Hung and Joe Kiet made, there was mention in the intro for Joe that he defeated a Shaolin monk. This is mentioned on all the tapes, so I think people are just curious about that.

Anyways, whatever. I agree with Fu-Pow about how they shouldn't be taken so seriously.

By the way, if this is the tournament that I'm thinking of, what form did Joe compete with. I saw him do the sam sing jong, but it didn't look like the siu sub ji that I know. Are there different versions of siu sub ji, then?

-123

CLFNole

03-03-2003, 02:28 PM

He did Siu Ping Kuen.

Peace.

Eddie

03-04-2003, 02:53 AM

Freeform,
Your post seemed a little negatively inclined towards Joe, and that’s not cool (specially if he has not done anything to you). I wasn’t angry at all, I’m just wondering why you actually bring this up in a public internet forum, instead of taking it up with the person directly. Just seems like your intend was to stir things up a little.

“Why were the people so worried about who "won" and "lost"?
Tournaments are kind of silly really and taken way to seriously. If you don't like politics DON"T GO.”

Well said, and actually, If you are really a good competitor, you should know that you win some and you loose some. Shouldn’t you really actually only compete against yourself (be the best you can be)?

I can say this, I speak to Joe often. He is a great guy, and he is a GREAT Martial Artist. When he spoke to me, he only spoke highly of his class mates, his piers, and everyone else in the US Martial Arts Scene. I havent heared him say anything negative about anyone. He shows respect to others, and that’s why I respect him.

Freeform, if you really want to get to the bottom of this (and if your intentions are honourable) then why don’t you just call him. His telephone number is on their website. You will notice that he is a very nice guy. By posting messages like this on a public internet forum, you are not doing anything to help promote the Chinese Martial Arts.

“.."Death to rumors, especially the false ones.".””

Be careful, this is exactly how rumors start. Dont make yourself guilty of that.

e

kfwisdom

03-04-2003, 08:28 AM

Eddie, I think you are being overly sensitive. Freeform asked a legitimate question and this is a kf message board, right?! If Joe is selling a video where he states that he beat a Shaolin Monk, I want to hear the story. It is not everyday that we get to challenge a monk. One of my boys who trains in Wah Lum told me about this incident where Joe's sifu gave him the highest score. This upset other sifus and the only reason nothing was said to Li siu hung was out of respect for his brother, Lee Koon Hung. This happens all the time in tournaments. I think Sifus should not judge their own students period. Let your kf speak for itself. Not to take anything away from Joe's skills, but does anyone know if Joe has ever won a tournament where his sifu didn't judge?

ed78

03-04-2003, 09:09 AM

at the topurnament 2000, the rules for being eligeble for Grand Champion was 3 divisions plus sparring. ( i think) The monks didn't spar,so was the monk allowed to compete for Grand Champion just because he was a "monk".

Joe has won Grand Champion at other tournaments as well.

Fu-Pow

03-04-2003, 11:38 AM

This is about the dumbest thread I've seen on here in a while.

Its so transparently obvious that the person who started it is trying to stir up some ****.

Sorry you're gonna have to do better than that...we've lived through the "Frank McCarthy Experience."

Haha....lol Frank :D

flyingeagle

03-04-2003, 01:50 PM

Fu Pow,

As far as this being the dumbest thread ever....I have to disagree. I am sure their have been worse threads. I think listing this as one of your accomplishments on a video tape is pretty lame, when you know the truth.

Also, I haven't seen anyone answer kfwisdoms question. Personally, I am not that knowledgeable about all the different tournaments, but I would like to know if Joe has ever one a tournament were his Sifu was not a judge.

CLFNole

03-04-2003, 02:56 PM

Come on when selling products everyone pumps themselves up. You always want to sound good so whats the problem. I mean just look at sports going into the NFL draft so many people are listed at 4.3 speed or 6-3 in height, they get to the combines and run a 4.8 and are actually 6-0 in height.

Just read the program books at ever kung fu tournament you go to and every sifu pumps up their credentials having studied with x or y sifu. After a while you will realize that kung fu is filled with large ego's this why we as a group (kung fu) do not have real big tournaments anymore becuase this sifu doesn't like that sifu and this sifu doesn't give face to the other sifu.

Tournaments are all about politics and it looks like they will always be that way. The incident in question happened nearly 3 years ago just give it a rest. Its not like it was a real monk anyhow just a "wushu kid in a robe".

I agree that someone's sifu should not judge their own students but it was allowed and there were like 8 other judges so then you have to live with the results, like it or not.

Peace.

Fu-Pow

03-04-2003, 04:48 PM

I still think this thread is stupid.

Its about the most non-intellectual thing I've ever read.

It kind of reminds of when you were a kid and one kid goes "hey my Dad can beat up your dad" and the other kid goes "oh yeah, shut up, my Dad can beat up your dad."

What's the point of this thread?

To cut down Joe?

Tell you what...you guys are grown ups....you guys that have a problem with Joe. Go to the school where he trains (www.leekoonhungkungfu.com) walk in and challenge him to a "Gong Sau" match. Mono e mono. Not to the death or anything but just till someone's in a lot of pain.

If he's a player of any merit he'll accept your challenge.

Come back and tell us who won. And if you win you can tell us how bad he sucks and how he's full of **** and there's no way he could have beat a shaolin monk.

Until then it's all claims and words and true kung fu men don't live by those rules....we live and die by the fist.

Jamesbond_007

03-04-2003, 06:44 PM

I have to agree with Fu-Pow, this really is out of line. Although I have never met Joe, I have had contact with the people from his school and they are among the niced martial artists I have met. A couple of years back I used to manage a big martial arts store and I met a lot of martial artists, sifus, and instructors. I came across a lot of egos and some nice people. I says a lot for a school and the head instructors if their students are polite and kind. It shows what the school teaches and stands for.

About Joe as a marital artist. I have seen a lot of tapes of him and he along with his current sifu and Lee Koon Hung have some of the best stances I have seen any from any CLF practioner. I have a home tape of a big CLF demo in China with a lot of CLF teachers from all over the world. There is a lot of great stuff on it but Joe and his sifu have such beautiful stances and technique its inspiring. Watch how they move, very graceful, they sink in their say ping ma's and flow from one move to another.

How about we talk about what we have learned from Joe or Lee Koon Hung instead of who beat who?

freezeme4

03-04-2003, 09:20 PM

OK THEN, let turn this to a productive topic, like judging, and fairness. or, unfairness if you like. How many of you out there have gone to a tourn. and have bin judged unfairly? and on top of that watched another competitor get high scores from a judge from their own school. Well i have. And it just so happens i was at that tourn. and saw this happen more than once. and just to set the record straight, I'm not talking about the grandchampion comp. here. But, I do think when the stakes are high, then integrity in judging should be high as well. And if you are a sifu and you have a student competing in the grandchampionships, then you should step aside and let a alternate judge in. Maybe this is one of the reasons that tourn. arn't as large as they use to be. add all the politics and you have poor attendance.
So lets hear some other stories or ideas to promote CMA. HOW CAN WE IMPROVE THE SYSTEM.

CFNOLES, I have not seen the tapes in question. but if they do claim something that is not true, it's not the same as pumping your self up in a program. the program is not for sale on the net. and i think this is misleeding. this is really none of my buss. but just my opionon. Do you think sifu would aprove if he where still alive? I don't know. I have my doubts. Are you going to ST. Pete? I have a sweet wip chain i would like to compair. all stainless steel.

CLFNole

03-04-2003, 09:38 PM

Freeze:

You know my answer to your question without me having to say anything. Don't think I will be going to St. Pete cuz I don't think he (you know who I am talking about) has any students who will be competing or a practicing to compete for that matter. Maybe we can compare whips another time like if Andy has another tourney.

Good luck to you guys.

Hey I saw a tape from the show you guys did in Fort Lauderdale, why didn't you perform? Resting for the Dragon Boat race? LOL

Peace.

P.S. Say hi to Bill for me and tell him I still have his book if he wants it.

Serpent

03-04-2003, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by freezeme4
But, I do think when the stakes are high, then integrity in judging should be high as well. And if you are a sifu and you have a student competing in the grandchampionships, then you should step aside and let a alternate judge in.

Agreed. But it's never going to happen.

freedom76

03-04-2003, 10:25 PM

I didn't expect this much of a response. First of all, I wasn't criticizing Sifu Keit by any means. I was simply asking a question.
Second, I have only heard good things about him and his CLF lineage. If I offended anybody, I apologize. I now learn the Northern and Songshan lineages of Kung Fu. I am looking to take private lessons with a monk here in the US and am trying to find a good one that can do the forms well as well as can teach well. I was hoping to find out who the monk was because I was working under the impression that Sifu Keit had won, and perhaps to learn more of a monk here in the US. That Sifu Keit had won would have NOT been a surprise to me. I don't buy into the "legend" of the shaolin monks. Most of them are good, perhaps great (like Shi Guolin in NY) but not all. That easily carries over to any style. What we gain is up to us. Having a great Sifu is not enough, training in this style or that style is not enough. It's up to each of us, but finding a reputable instructor does help. Having one that understands much and can move well helps, but it still takes time and practice..."kung fu". I originally started in a style called Chung Moo Quan (or Doe, now Oom Yang Doe with John C. Kim) about eight or so years ago, spent nearly three years there, and if you know anything about that style, I believe you'd easily understand why I want to know more about an instructor before I learn from them.
I fear that there will be those people here that don't accept my words as the truth, but I've done my part.
Peace.

Serpent

03-04-2003, 10:52 PM

Fair comment.

Eddie

03-05-2003, 01:01 AM

Just made me wonder...., at our kung fu tournies here in SA, they follow a system from the IWUF where the judges score the competitor, then they drop the highest and the lowest score, and take the avarage of the rest to determine the score result. When there are 9 judges, it effectively meens that they only take the avarage of 7 scores.

Even if your sifu does favour you in any way, it wouldnt really matter much with this system.

I was told by a friend (Jose Figurao) from NYC that they also use that format at some tournaments in the states, so I pretty much doubt that Master Li's score could really make that much of a difference with this tournament (unless they didn't follow this system).

Last thing on Shaolin monks....
I have a friend down here who was a circular disciple at De Yangs school in china. Although his kung fu is very good, I can honestly say that his san da doesnt impress me. He is a very 'sloppy' fighter, although very boastful.

So, shaolin monk or not...

GeneChing

03-05-2003, 10:57 AM

To the best of my knowledge, no Shaolin monk has competed in a tournament yet on U.S. soils. Many Shaolin disciples have competed, and many of them don robes, so this may be the source of the confusion. Hell, I'm a Shaolin disciple. If Joe wants to challenge a disciple, he knows where to find me, and I'm sure he'd make short work of me (but then I'd write a nasty article on him ;)) J/K Actually Joe is a bud and I have great respect for him and his skills. Joe, if you're reading this, you know you have an open invitation to come by the office any time you're in town, but for a beer, buddy, not a brawl.

The 'monks' at that performed as part of the Wah Lum sponsored tour Shaolin 2000 were actually just disciples. If you check the Shaolin 2000 video (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/vidshaolkun2.html) that we carry, we clearly say that the headmaster Zhu Tianxi, is a disciple. In fact, this is a point that I emphasized in my July 2000 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=119) article When Mountains Meet.

Shaolin monks do lose at tournaments just like everyone else, but to the best of my knowledge, that is limited to within China. Most of the monks have already won a lot of medals and awards before the are fully indoctrinated. Then once they become monks, they stop competing, just like how most professional masters here no longer compete.

yutyeesam

03-05-2003, 03:03 PM

Thanks for clearing that up, Gene. I was going to say. Devoting oneself to live the way of the Buddha by abandoning the materialistic way of life and competing in tournaments seems to be in direct conflict with each other.

Sometimes it's easy to forget about what the "monk" part of Shaolin monk really means.

123

Serpent

03-05-2003, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by yutyeesam
Sometimes it's easy to forget about what the "monk" part of Shaolin monk really means.

Sadly these days, at least in the west, it seems to mean "licence to print money".

yik-wah-tik

03-07-2003, 04:31 PM

fool paw you are just a joke. a baby who cries when noone responds to his posts. but one thing is for sure, you will always remember my name regardless. you are another joseph who will never reveal his true identity because if mak hin fai knew of your exploits here, he would boot you from the school.

amongst the true clf masters i have a good name and they laugh at you and the rest of these fools on this line. the forum is the only place you exist and you hate it!

all you fools are out of your mind. you are so bored you have to question joe keits beating a shaolin monk. for What? what will it prove? you all act like you are the end all of choy lee fut. at least joe keits name is becoming famous to the outside world. did you see him with those pretty females in the kung fu magazine?
where are you? did you buy his video tape? then you are the trick, and he is the pimp so you got pimped.

this is why i no longer need to be on this forum. it is for psychos like you, while i was just made honorary president in the malaysia hung sing kwoon without them meeting me. my work is being done. what are you doing? playing on this forum? then have fun.

leave my name out of this losers!!!!!!

your friendly neighborhood hung sing kwoon gung fu man!

joe, kick their asses!

NorthernMantis

03-09-2003, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by flyingeagle
I was actually in Orlando for the tournament in question. Not only did he not fight the monk in sparring, he was unable to even win his division. However, he did perform well in forms, which enabled him to compete for Grand Champion. When competing for the overall title, his own sifu, Li Siu Hung, was one of the judges. This was widely known at the tournament and highly criticized. As I recall, there was actual booing when it was announced that he won.

Not really. I'm a wah lum student and my sifu personally spoke to sigung Chan Pui about the monks. The one that Joe competed with had strained a muscle in his lower back.Not bad for an injured man huh?:D Well anyways I think Joe had won fair and square ,in the forms division, and seemed to have a lot more power in his form. Well you have to give it up for the monk for competing with a hurt back. I don't think sifu Li really had anything to do with Joe winning to an extent, since sifu Li does know what a correct clf form looks like unlike other non-cfl sifus, but other than that I don't think sifu Li's judging had any bad influence on the judging.

Hmm as far as monks sparring I didn't see any but I was mostly in one of the rooms preparing for my division.

Serpent

03-09-2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by yik-wah-tik
fool paw you are just a joke. a baby who cries when noone responds to his posts. but one thing is for sure, you will always remember my name regardless. you are another joseph who will never reveal his true identity because if mak hin fai knew of your exploits here, he would boot you from the school.

amongst the true clf masters i have a good name and they laugh at you and the rest of these fools on this line. the forum is the only place you exist and you hate it!

all you fools are out of your mind. you are so bored you have to question joe keits beating a shaolin monk. for What? what will it prove? you all act like you are the end all of choy lee fut. at least joe keits name is becoming famous to the outside world. did you see him with those pretty females in the kung fu magazine?
where are you? did you buy his video tape? then you are the trick, and he is the pimp so you got pimped.

this is why i no longer need to be on this forum. it is for psychos like you, while i was just made honorary president in the malaysia hung sing kwoon without them meeting me. my work is being done. what are you doing? playing on this forum? then have fun.

leave my name out of this losers!!!!!!

your friendly neighborhood hung sing kwoon gung fu man!

joe, kick their asses!

No one mentioned your name, Frank. We were really enjoying the forum without your polluting presence, yet here you are again, shouting and ranting and raving like a lunatic. I would really suggest you seek professional help.

Meanwhile, as you "no longer need this forum" why don't you go away and masturbate over your "honourary presidents" certificate.

extrajoseph

03-09-2003, 06:17 PM

Uncanny! Serpent often says what I was thinking but too polite to say so. :p :rolleyes: :D

Serpent

03-09-2003, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by extrajoseph
Uncanny! Serpent often says what I was thinking but too polite to say so. :p :rolleyes: :D

I'd bet money that it's not just you and me thinking it, Joseph! ;)

Fu-Pow

03-09-2003, 10:07 PM

Frank-

I brought up your name in jest not to belittle you.

I believe that people see world as THEY are, not as it actually is. You see everything as a threat or a challenge because YOU fight against YOU. You believe that you see things objectively but we all see things as WE wish.

Chili dogs in the rain are in a dog in the funhouse.

See these words above, these are just words, sometimes they make sense sometimes they don't.

They really don't signify or mean anything more than what we want them to.

This forum is all words. You and me here are ALL words. We talk and talk and yet we say nothing.

Kung fu men do not live like this. As I said before "We live and die by the fist."

This is the secret lesson in kung fu.

If you really believe that you have a personal problem with me (which you can't because you don't even know me personally) then you know where I am.

Let's settle what you BELIEVE to be the truth like men.

Why don't I come to you?

Because Frank I have no problem with you, to me you are just cheap entertainment.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Peace and love to Sifu Dino (who my Sifu has never had anything but kind words to say about) and everyone at the San Francisco Hung Sing Gwoon.

Yau Sam

extrajoseph

03-10-2003, 03:53 AM

Even though you have always laid it thick on for me, I have nothing personal against you, like Serpent and Fu-Pow, I think you are just a joke, but I must thank you for inspiring me to dig deep into CLF history and spent my spare time wisely after business in China. You must be a source of constant embarassment for your school, poor Sifu Dino!

Serpent

03-10-2003, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by extrajoseph
Even though you have always laid it thick on for me, I have nothing personal against you, like Serpent and Fu-Pow, I think you are just a joke, but I must thank you for inspiring me to dig deep into CLF history and spent my spare time wisely after business in China. You must be a source of constant embarassment for your school, poor Sifu Dino!

:D

Just to clarify, I have nothing personal against Frank either. You know how you watch chimps in the zoo throwing their sh!t at each other? Well, I don't hate them for it either, I just laugh at their antics.

Frank's just like that.