A tribute to Wei Hsiaotang

[Tainan Mantis]

babu tanglang (http://www.babutanglang.com/)

Hello my mantis brothers and sisters.
At long last my friend Michael Martello has decided to go public with the tribute page to GM Wei.

Mike has planned this page for 3 years while Howard Wang, Paul Lin and I have been fiddling with the translations for a year and a half or 2 years.

Please leave some comments or questions here.
What other aspects of GM Wei would you like to see or how could the page be improved upon.

[B.Tunks]

Excellent web site.

Nice design (both functional and eye pleasing). Most importantly, excellent translations and valuable content. It is a great memorial to a great master. It is especially interesting for me as I have been studying GM Wei's book quite a bit recently and I found the translations and interpretations you guys did on the site, to be very good! You have set quite a high standard.
Good work!
Brendan Tunks

[RAF]

Excellent and thorough. Exactly what traditional Chinese martial arts must do in order for it to survive and prosper!

Please continue and post us.

[mantis108]

Indeed, great work. I would like to personally congratulate Michael Martello and those who are involved in the project in bring forth such a wonderful tribute to a great master. Thank you, guys and please keep up the good work. :)

Mantis108

[argentino]

Excellent information. Congratulations

[brassmonkey]

great looking site. There was a video I saw a while back of Master Wei doing form that looked very impressive and unlike any mantis I'd seen though I havent seen much, very fluid with intention which would be a great addition if you can find it.

[Tainan Mantis]

Thanks for the encouragement all.

RAF,
On JAMA... I though since I use this forum so often it would be nice to submit an article to Gene first.

brassmonkey,
Look under "about Babu"
where it says moving steps.
You can see part of the video that you mention.
Also is a description of what you are seeing.

[RAF]

Tainan Mantis:

Either journal/magazine or better yet both. I only suggested JAMA because of the technical nature and translations of your material. We've wanted for a long time to submit something to Gene's magazine and hope to do so in the future (time seems to be the key element).

Its good to see 8 Step praying manits curriculum. A well-structured 8 Step praying mantis program will rival anything you find in Karate and/or Taekwando plus, if you are lucky, you can get an authentic version of the Wu style taiji. 8 step praying mantis is a system just begging to be hatched in the United States.

[Tainan Mantis]

RAF,
What do you study now?
Your shrfu is Su Yuzhang?
Do you still talk to him?

brassmonkey,
You are talking about the clip of GM Wei doing Zhai Yao.
At some point in the future part of that will also be put up.

There are also complete clips of GM' Wei's students doing the 2 man drills and forms from that era.
That will probably not be put up though.
It is something that stays in the family of 8 Step. But I think if you study the style you may have a chance to see all tha footage.

Here in Taiwan, for example, Liu Yunchiao(of Baji)'s students have a once a year get together for the higher ups where they get to see some of the footage of GM Liu doing the forms.
It is a great inspiration for the students as well as a way of preserving the original flavor.

My Shrfu in Taiwan would also do this on occasion at his home.

[RAF]

Tainan Mantis:

My teacher is Yang, Xiao-dong (Tony Yang. I have been his studetn for about 15 years). When I first started with him, we only learned 8 Step praying mantis and pretty much learned the forms described on the website you posted. I also learned beng bu, mei hua hand, qi qing zhao yao but never took the training seriously since I had come to Tony Yang for Chen and Yang's taijiquan. I regret this very much and have seen babu zhao yao #1 and #2 and its fantastic. I could have learned Fen zhen ba zhou and lan jie last year but gave all my mantis back around 1992 or so. I met Su Yu Zhang in 1992 and seen him a couple of times but I am not really a mantis player. I like him. BTW, until 1997, our martial arts instruction only happend once a week for 2 hours (Sunday) because my teahcer was tied up in his family restaurant and we really were not public.

1992 is when I started baji/pigua training and now I focus most of my time learning bagua basics and continuing my work in Chen/Yangs. However, I did learn, recently liuhe duan chuei.

I like your clips and you can see some of Tony's early days in Taiwan:

http://www.wutangcenter.com/masteryang.htm
If you scroll around in the above site, you see Gao Dao Sheng and my teacher. Scroll down further and you will see him teaching at Tainan Da Xian Temple in 1975 and 1977.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/tournament.htm
If you scroll down to the picture of Master Yang giving Sun De Yao his trophy and look back to the right, you will see one of Wei Xiao Tang's disicples who is also a childhood friend of Su Yu Zhang. I always forget his name but his xing yi performance was outstanding and he was featured in a Japanese magazine last year. He is also listed in Wei Xiao Tang's book, pre 1980 (I have seen the book and Paul Lin's father is listed, I believe first). I've had dinner with him and Msster Su and this guy is a real gentleman and buddhist.

Although I don't actively train or pracitce praying mantis, I can now look back and see the opportunity I missed but still appreciate those who carry forth the banner, yourself included.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi RAF,
Those pics on your links are nice.
I especially like seeing the old masters when they were young.
Hey, I didn't know Gao Daosheng smoked.

When I came to Taiwan some of the older generation told me I need to start smoking to stay healthy.
Back then the ROC cig. was called LONG LIFE.

[ninjaboy]

cool site although i couldn't get any of the form clips to work for me...any suggestions?

neil

[mantis108]

I think Michael updated the page. They are under Quicktime format now. You might need to download a free Quicktime 6. I had a Quicktime 4 which didn't work at all but the Quicktime 6 works fine. It's great to see the 8 Step Grandmaster performing his version of Zhaiyao on a public website. :)

Michael your effort should be commended.

Mantis108

[Crimson Phoenix]

great site, both in form and content...
I wish all sityes about gong fu could be that informative and eyecandy...

[ninjaboy]

way cool cllips, thx for sharing

[WanderingMonk]

Hi Tainan Mantis,

I look long and hard and I can't find the video section for the web site. Please pass along the url to the video section.

thanks.

wm

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi WM,
Go to
-site developers
-Kevin Brazie
There are clips of me there, but they are the same I have posted here.

BTW, That pic is in Mantis108's shop.

Oh, Wait! You mean vid of GM Wei?

Ok, go to
-about babu
-8 moving steps
-clip a step for vid.
But not all steps have video.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Hi WM,
Oh, Wait! You mean vid of GM Wei?

Ok, go to
-about babu
-8 moving steps
-clip a step for vid.
But not all steps have video.
Hi Tainan Mantis,

Thanks, I was looking for video clips for the 8 steps website. I plan to posted the site address to a hong kong kung fu board. you guys wouldn't mind the extra bandwidth usage, right?

I am also going to post the video page since many of them don't read English. May be you guys could make a Chinese version of 8 step site for the English impaired audience.

wm

[Nick8stepPM]

Originally posted by RAF
Tainan Mantis:

Either journal/magazine or better yet both. I only suggested JAMA because of the technical nature and translations of your material. We've wanted for a long time to submit something to Gene's magazine and hope to do so in the future (time seems to be the key element).

Its good to see 8 Step praying manits curriculum. A well-structured 8 Step praying mantis program will rival anything you find in Karate and/or Taekwando plus, if you are lucky, you can get an authentic version of the Wu style taiji. 8 step praying mantis is a system just begging to be hatched in the United States.

8 step preying mantis is all over the states already, anyone who knows the current Grandmaster Shyun Kwong Long(James Sun) would know this. Link to the site is right here 8 step schools (http://www.8step.com/schools/index.html)

[bung bo]

great site about GM Wei. i really like old stories about gong fu masters. would like to learn more about him.

[Tainan Mantis]

I recently received an email from one of our KFO Mantis brothers.
He included a partial translation from a book from China about Mimen Mantis.

It appears that this information was taken from GM Wei's very well known Mantis book.
This would mean that it is not Mimen Mantis.
This section of GM Wei's book talks about the 7 Hand methods of his style.
It is written in a similar style to WHF's 5 Hand Methods. Although the methods differ.

"The hand methods of Mantis are many.
Our style starts with seven hands"

Here, he is not refering to the 8 Step form called 7 Hands.

"The seven hands are:
1. Three Climbing Hands-Pa San Shou.
2. Closing the Attacking Hand-Bi Ji Shou.
3. Knife Hand-Po Dao Shou.
4. Three Plucking Hands-Tsai San Shou.
5. Hook Drag Hands- Go Lou Shou.
6. Continuous Folding Hands-Die Lien Shou.
7. Eagle Sparrow Hands-Ying Chue Shou..."

For those 8 Step practitioners in the states is this how you translate GM Wei's 7 Hands?

[B.Tunks]

This book also steals heavily from my Shiye; Li Zhanyuan's book which was published in the early 80's. There is a few good sections on applications though.
B.T

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
I recently received an email from one of our KFO Mantis brothers.
He included a partial translation from a book from China about Mimen Mantis.

It appears that this information was taken from GM Wei's very well known Mantis book.
This would mean that it is not Mimen Mantis.
This section of GM Wei's book talks about the 7 Hand methods of his style.
It is written in a similar style to WHF's 5 Hand Methods. Although the methods differ.

"The hand methods of Mantis are many.
Our style starts with seven hands"

Here, he is not refering to the 8 Step form called 7 Hands.

"The seven hands are:
1. Three Climbing Hands-Pa San Shou.
2. Closing the Attacking Hand-Bi Ji Shou.
3. Knife Hand-Po Dao Shou.
4. Three Plucking Hands-Tsai San Shou.
5. Hook Drag Hands- Go Lou Shou.
6. Continuous Folding Hands-Die Lien Shou.
7. Eagle Sparrow Hands-Ying Chue Shou..."

For those 8 Step practitioners in the states is this how you translate GM Wei's 7 Hands?

#3. Po = broken throgh. Dao = knife. Shou = hand.

All these hands tech. existed throughout the forms in 8 step. But I don't know if you are talking about the 7 hands as the first solo boxing form or as foundational striking drills.

[Nick8stepPM]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
I recently received an email from one of our KFO Mantis brothers.
He included a partial translation from a book from China about Mimen Mantis.

It appears that this information was taken from GM Wei's very well known Mantis book.
This would mean that it is not Mimen Mantis.
This section of GM Wei's book talks about the 7 Hand methods of his style.
It is written in a similar style to WHF's 5 Hand Methods. Although the methods differ.

"The hand methods of Mantis are many.
Our style starts with seven hands"

Here, he is not refering to the 8 Step form called 7 Hands.

"The seven hands are:
1. Three Climbing Hands-Pa San Shou.
2. Closing the Attacking Hand-Bi Ji Shou.
3. Knife Hand-Po Dao Shou.
4. Three Plucking Hands-Tsai San Shou.
5. Hook Drag Hands- Go Lou Shou.
6. Continuous Folding Hands-Die Lien Shou.
7. Eagle Sparrow Hands-Ying Chue Shou..."

For those 8 Step practitioners in the states is this how you translate GM Wei's 7 Hands?

Well from what i know those are in our 8 hands form, with Hawk Hands starting it off, but yeah thats all i really can tell you.

[TRAVIS WHITMAN]

James shyun curriculum:

8 hands techniques:
1. Hawk hands = Ying chuei shou
2. Chopping hands = poa dao shou
3. Sickle hands = tzan yao shou
4. Double pull hands = shuang luh shou
5. Grinding wheel hands = mouh pan shou
6. Climbing hands = pah san shou
7. Protect hands = bi ji shou
8. Mantis striking hands = gou lou shou

These are pretty much the same tech.s everyone else knows about 8 step, we (Shun style) just approach teaching them differently. In addition to these we also have 40 more tech.s, -stances, fists, blocks, ect just in the first levelbecausemostof our students have little or no martial arts background and those that do usually have little or no mantis background. I belive tianan mantis pointed out that he uses an eagle claw form to get the basic language of mantis across to students, this is our approach to the same goal. We teach kicks and throws and chin na the same way, a lot more tech.s and information to ground students in basics that they generally don't have. Mantis practioners with some expereince don't really need to know all these tech.s, they should already have a grasp on chinese martial arts and mantis concepts.

I beleve Andy Miles wrote a good article on 8 step hands(?) some time back in one of the martial arts rags.

[Tainan Mantis]

Hi Travis,
Thanks for the info.
Nice to know that what you learn is close to what is in Wei Hsiaotang's book.

He listed 7 and you have 8.
I think it is your sickle hands.
Looking at what you wrote in Chinese it appears to be what I call waist chop.

[TRAVIS WHITMAN]

Sickle hands is well known throughout mantis, in one of Profatiylov (spell?) articles, it is shown as an application in one of the pictures. I have also seen it in 7 star once or twice. Many of the concepts that are in Master Wei's books are only introductions to each portion of 8 step. Some are hands, some are throws/throwing exercises, some lead to chin na. There are several topics covered, but most are not in that much detail. I teach 48 hand tech.s but some are variations on the same idea. The endless debate -are there a few techs and many variations or are there many different tech.s? Tainan you have access to more manuals than I do, are there references to studying other basic systems first to learn the 'language of fighting' and then progressing to mantis systems to learn more refined combat tech.s?

[PaulLin]

The names of movements are very important. They express a metaphor or imporatnat focus point of the movements.

There are some mistakes in the translations form some of the names of the moves that listed by Travis. They clearly showed the person who translate them has no knowledge of the true meaning of these moves.

I will not give out free bees, it is the same case that the outsiders will translate the "small waterwheel" into "tombling chariot". Don't pretent that didn't matter, it lost the meaning of the movement and will make the practioner train incorrectly.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Hi Travis,
Thanks for the info.
Nice to know that what you learn is close to what is in Wei Hsiaotang's book.

He listed 7 and you have 8.
I think it is your sickle hands.
Looking at what you wrote in Chinese it appears to be what I call waist chop.

Waist chop is correct translation. Sickle has nothing to do with this move. Sickle, full name is "Old Farmer Cutting Rice", it is a throwing move of 8 step.

[TRAVIS WHITMAN]

I want to sincerely thank Paul Lin for reminding me why I don't generally post on these discussion boards. I also don't give out freebees, however, public information is another matter especially for techniques found in every art in every country. Those mantis practioners with sincere hearts know how to contact me, the rest can just........

[TRAVIS WHITMAN]

Now now Andy, we have all seen this road before, let's take a page from our elders and get back to productive mantis discussions. It is inappropriate for accomplished sifus to abuse those who can't defend themselves, whether they ask for it or not. Your location and mine are very easy to find, people who really want to knock heads with us will do so without fanfare. Let's ignore the paul lins of this world and move onward and upward.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by TRAVIS WHITMAN
Now now Andy, we have all seen this road before, let's take a page from our elders and get back to productive mantis discussions. It is inappropriate for accomplished sifus to abuse those who can't defend themselves, whether they ask for it or not. Your location and mine are very easy to find, people who really want to knock heads with us will do so without fanfare. Let's ignore the paul lins of this world and move onward and upward.

The person who shows what Andy showed here is exactly the type of the person that will be disqualified even before to be considered to be taught. I can't think of any worthy martial artist will produce this kind of embrrassement. If he want to see face to face, he will have to pay for it. I don't wast any money and time on this kind of education.

The way of translating words by words as any Chinese language speaker/writer can is not what you can deal with a folk martial arts. You will mis interpreted them. 8 step mantis is a folk art and it is not a city art. If the one that is real learned form GM Wei, he will need to understand how to listen to his talking style and understand what he mean. If you used normal Chinese language guessing, like any Chinese could, to make up the meaning, rather than truly explained by GM Wei, you will be off I will know that you didn't learn form GM Wei or his teaching.

I am not going to give more direction for your improving to make it look more real. I have already know it is not real. And if the real one do not get recognition, then on one will want to be the fool.

And don't embrrase others by using WuShu's moves, such as running 2 steps before jump up and kick. It is invented by Communist China as a Gymnastic preforming. Notice that when GM Wei choose his books title, it is not 8 step mantis, it says practical mantis. It is so opposite of WuShu forms.

GM Wei especially hate people who claim they have a secret way that only taught to one person. There is a case when he cracked the person's face open with Gua and Shuai hummerfist just because the person is braging about his ndefeatable secret hands that taught only to him.

Want to know and learn real GM Wei's mantis, I can only help if the person is not involved with some one who invented his own style and claim under my grand master.

I will keep bring up the questions that you will have no answer of, and I will not give answer. Do what you want and people will see for themselves.

And it is vitally productive to know how to tell what is real and what is not.

[PaulLin]

How can you say you have learned real GM Wei's way without even understand what is really means with his words?

Don't espect any Chinese language learning can bill you out.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by TRAVIS WHITMAN
Now now Andy, we have all seen this road before, let's take a page from our elders and get back to productive mantis discussions. It is inappropriate for accomplished sifus to abuse those who can't defend themselves, whether they ask for it or not. Your location and mine are very easy to find, people who really want to knock heads with us will do so without fanfare. Let's ignore the paul lins of this world and move onward and upward.

If you learn form Shyun and what you have learned worked, I am happy for you. But if you think that is what GM Wei's teaching, I will not agree. He should be bold enough to stand with his own invention and be proud of it when who he has taught made use to them. He has his own smartness, given his own time and effort in collecting form many other artists. If he insisted by under GM Wei, he will only show in time how much of GM Wei he didn't know.

And if you don't believe the real way is better, you can come down to Orange county too. If you have business mind over learning, I can tell that too.

[Nick8stepPM]

Originally posted by PaulLin


If you learn form Shyun and what you have learned worked, I am happy for you. But if you think that is what GM Wei's teaching, I will not agree. He should be bold enough to stand with his own invention and be proud of it when who he has taught made use to them. He has his own smartness, given his own time and effort in collecting form many other artists. If he insisted by under GM Wei, he will only show in time how much of GM Wei he didn't know.

And if you don't believe the real way is better, you can come down to Orange county too. If you have business mind over learning, I can tell that too.

Yes i have seen this before GM Shyun's credability in question, yet he has his certificate to prove it. Also who are you to speak of Grandmaster Shyun in such a manner unless you have spoken to or met him. I'd advise meeting him, at his home in San Francisco and find out for yourself. Cides the purpose of GM is to make a style better or enhanced, is it not. Just a few things to think about. Now I am not trying to start anything, but first know who you are slandering in libel.

[Nick8stepPM]

Originally posted by Andy Miles

Grandmaster Sun lives in LA.

Good to know will have to make a note of that, thanks Andy, as for PaulLin well can't change what you think, but you should really know the person you are besmirching in Libel. Which also means you are besmirching the many students aswell.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Nick8stepPM


Good to know will have to make a note of that, thanks Andy, as for PaulLin well can't change what you think, but you should really know the person you are besmirching in Libel. Which also means you are besmirching the many students aswell.

Don't immagine you know who are you talking to. I don't think, I know. Shyun's family used to be my nightbor. His father used to treat me to a icecream when I was little. My father is his father's friend and we known his family. My father has been with GM Wei about every days. It is not a opinion. What I have said is what you have never seen back in Taiwan about him. I felt sorry about you guys who have never seen his family was like we have, only lived in the fantacy kung fu world that he created here in USA, where no one can show you who was he back in Taiwan.

GM Wei never used papers to prove qualification as he himself didn't need them. He used what he got in skill. He decieded to teach others by the personality. The proofs that Shyun's posted needs a carbon analysis. Not to mention about GM Wei has never educated in Chinese literacy to write like that, and that is not his writing neither.

Don't tell me that you don't question about how Shyun can learn so much about GM Wei's teaching and lived so closely with him, as he claimed, without even understand how GM Wei speak?

If you have a official turnament some where near Orange County and like to have a match, you can give me an invitation at <taichicklin@yahoo.com>. I can't do any private/inofficial turnament since the law in US will give too much trouble for that.

If you think those Sanshou, copied Shuaichiao, or even copied BJJ can defeat the real GM Wei's 8 step mantis, real GM Chang's Shuai Chaio, real GM Han's ChinNa, and real GM Wang's HsingI/BaGua, you will be making a big mistake.

This is really for your education. I don't need this for a mouth fight. My father is the official head disciple of both GM Wei and GM Chang. It passed down to me. Unless my father says other wise, according to the Chinese Martial Arts tradition, I have the right to say who is in GM Wei's system and who is not. Well, now a days, not many people abide by that tradition when money is up on ahead.

This wasted my time too much, I hate to repeated this again and again. If Shyun never used his mis-claimed GM Wei's relationship to threat the other real student of GM Wei to teach in the publics, such as what we have heard form Master Zhang JiaHuang, who called my father to complain Shyun's threating him. I wouldn't even bother to mentioned any of this worthless things at all. Shyun's way of attracting students will only gain the students that we don't even want to deal with. If the person only looking at the surface, fame, authority, and do not care about the heart, spirit, or deeper aspects, we don't really interesting in dealing with teaching them. These kind of students should learn their own lesson with some one else.

The student we have taught will never fall for the surface, fame, and authority tricks. They only care about the deeper aspects.

I don't want to given out any personal info. here since Shyun is know for his dirty trick back in Taiwan, incase you don't know him back in Taiwan. If you want to meet me, I will need a public and neutral place and when I have time to attend. I am not teaching martial art for living, that is why I can teach the way I see it fit rather to fit the business survival rules. So I will need to have another way to support my financial, I am not as free as a Lottery winner.

[Nick8stepPM]

Why should i believe you over someone else, i am only believeing in what i want to believe in, with each different person the Mantis history is different, that includes Grandmaster Wei, so in this scenario are you not doing the same thing. But in anycase i was and am still trying to get a copy of Wei's book, and analyze it for myself, and because i am open to all things and other Martial Arts. Now i still will defend Grandmaster Shyun, only way that would be able to change i guess anyone's mind is to expierence it for ourselves. Now as for money, what money as the ACMAF or rather simply put all of the school's of the Shyun lineage across the US, are non-profit 501(c)(3) organizations. Anyhow for me personally i would have to expierence the differences. Now as for the inner aspects of MA that is why i started i always loved MA not just for the techniques but the inside, don't know how to describe it but yeah, not here to say who's right and who's wrong but yeah just will have to see for myself sometime.

[PaulLin]

Originally posted by Nick8stepPM
Why should i believe you over someone else, i am only believeing in what i want to believe in, with each different person the Mantis history is different, that includes Grandmaster Wei, so in this scenario are you not doing the same thing. But in anycase i was and am still trying to get a copy of Wei's book, and analyze it for myself, and because i am open to all things and other Martial Arts. Now i still will defend Grandmaster Shyun, only way that would be able to change i guess anyone's mind is to expierence it for ourselves. Now as for money, what money as the ACMAF or rather simply put all of the school's of the Shyun lineage across the US, are non-profit 501(c)(3) organizations. Anyhow for me personally i would have to expierence the differences. Now as for the inner aspects of MA that is why i started i always loved MA not just for the techniques but the inside, don't know how to describe it but yeah, not here to say who's right and who's wrong but yeah just will have to see for myself sometime.

It is good to have your own individual research. You do want to believe in what you can comprehend, and what you believed in will lead you to reach to the consiquence that comes with it.

Like many questions I have brought up before, Shyun can never come up with his father's business name and position/title as he claim he was a rich business man. He can never give you his old address nor GM Wei's address in Taiwan. He can never give you the exactly time and location of all the turnaments he have won. The best he can do is turn away and pretend that you have no right to question his statement. These are traceable and he can't back them up. The people who have asked him and know he has lied will be kicked out of his system and marked as enemy and therefore, will bad mouth about him.

Why don't you ask him these traceable questions yourself and see if he can back them up?

I have heard form many of his ex-students about how much money they paid to get a belt, certificate(some time never got them after paid for thousands of bucks), mirical medicine that don't work, and special training camps that just like army camp. Just go ask these ex-students and you will hear it first hand. I have no first hand information of such, so I can only tell you that is what I have heard form his other ex-students.

Form my opinion and experience, Shyun does has the love for kung fu and he is very creative. But I see the true way need spirit, mind, chi, and body all harmonized into one unit to achieve. That is if you separate these in order to achieve such as fame, glories, or authority, then you can never own the true way. He had the chance but he missed it. It is too bad that he see only by separate his spirit, mind, chi, and body that he may survive and success.

[TRAVIS WHITMAN]

Since paullin won't put up or shut up maybe it's time to consider shutting this thread down. Moderator's call, but I think everyone would like to see some new mantis discussion preferably on a different subject. Those still interested in argueing James Sun's qualifications can check out the threads from last year and the year before that. I can assure everyone that he doesn't care what the lin people think or say. Let's move onward and upward.

[BeiTangLang]

You know, this has gone one long enough. I was hoping you guys would turn this thread around, but since you didn't its closed.
Thanks for posting.
Best Wishes,
~BTL