San Soo from Jimmy H. Woo...

[germpest]

I was just wondering if anyone trains in San Soo, and other styles and how they compare. also I just wanted to know what everyone (who know about San Soo) thinks about it? thanks

[Waidan]

I trained San Soo for a few years (I was a brown belt), and I currently study Baguazhang.

San Soo has it's good points and bad, like most any style.

On the plus side, it's relatively quick process to develop San Soo to a usable level. The footwork and striking methods aren't terribly complicated to pick up (at least at a basic level). San Soo makes use of a wide variety of throws, joint locks, and painful nerve attacks, so you really get a good body of techniques. There is typically a fair amount of conditioning involved, including dynamic tension exercises, heavy bag work, loads of tumbling, and variations of "3 Star" arm striking drills. San Soo is a *very* aggressive style, using a perdominantly offense-minded fighting strategy.

On the negative side, San Soo's forms are fugly. Not only do they not look good, but they don't serve much of a purpose. Also, San Soo doesn't normally incorperate any sort of free sparring (big problem imho). There is little or no internal training (no chi gung, etc) to balance out the hard, external nature of the style.

[germpest]

what is Baguazhang? I mean a description. How can you say the forms have no purpose, I don't know what kind of forms you used? and what's you definition of free sparing? thanks for your reply by the way

[Waidan]

np :)

Baguazhang is one of the more well known "internal" styles, along with xingyi and taiji. It is a system closely tied to the I-Ching, which emphasizes constant movement and change, all using a full-body connection to root and generate force. Personally, I study Cheng style (9 palace), known for a focus on throws and joint locks/breaks.

In regards to the San Soo forms having no purpose, let me clarify. We practiced "plub flower" pattern forms, though they are perhaps known by other names at other schools. Though they certainly provided a means of exercise, they did little to improve fighting ability. They contain movements that are either done radically differently or not at all while fighting, and don't do much to enforce the mechanics of the style. For example, it's safe to say all the forms I practiced contained large-circle, double windmill arm movements that would get you yelled at if you were to do them during technique practice, and possibly beaten in a street fight. When a teacher says, "Only perform these movements in the form, they're not for fighting," alarm bells go off. I'm a firm believer in the "train how you fight, fight how you train" philosophy, so if a training method doesn't condition my body or reinforce good fighting habits, I don't have time for it.

Definition of "free sparring" = unrehearsed, continuous fighting. The speed and level of force used will vary, but the important thing is the unrehersed interaction between practitioners, and the application of techniques on a resisting opponent. San Soo does a good job (in my estimation) of working on spacing and "flow" of applications, but there is little in the way of preparation for "what if my technique fails miserably", or "what if i get hit/fall down/etc". Also, students have a tendancy to help a little (or sometimes a lot) in practice while being thrown/tripped/whatever, and this can negatively impact a student's real-world application of the same technique.

[germpest]

ahh, thanks. That's kind of wierd abou the forms though, every single form I do is the base of the style. Every technique came from the forms, so a form is really one long technique, but it's usually against atleast 4 opponents. In my studio(school, dojo, whatever) we don't rehearse are workout(free sparing) as we call it. So I guess that the things you didn't like, maybe were your schools problems? I'm not sure, I know that my teacher is very tradition in the art, apart from the meditation, and diet that the Chinese did in China. Thanks again for the reply. This is all very interesting.

[Waidan]

Hmm. I'm familiar with a few San Soo schools, all here in SoCal. Everyone I've met from these schools follow a very similar format, with minimal variation in material.

I know of a couple groups that teach San Soo quite a bit differently.

There's a faction (for lack of a better term) that teach a simplified, strike-oriented method. They use the powerful, arcing hammer fists found in the forms, and they concentrate on the rapid striking combos we called the "first 45" (they call them Ah Soo). I think the group was founded/taught by a fellow named Wilson. Really, it's been so long, I can't be sure of the name. Though I've never seen their fighting first hand, from the way they describe it, it probably looks quite a bit like our hand forms.

The second school is up in Culver City, CA (I think that's right). I haven't visited the school, but I corresponded with the head instructor a few years ago. Seems they take a more internal approach to the style, and the teacher claims to have a number of advanced forms not taught in my neck of the woods. Though I've never made it up there, I'd be interested to see just what they're teaching. If I recall correctly, they refer to the art as Tsoi Li Ho Fut, rather than San Soo. They used to have a website at tlhkungfu.com, but it appears the domain has been snatched up by satanic web marketers.

Anyway, where are you studying?

[germpest]

I study in SoCal, the Russ Williams school in Mission Viejo, if you not familiar with the area, it's in orange county. My instructed had private lessons from Jimmy Woo. Here check out the site www.kungfusansoomvca.com ah soo is the lowest level or least sophisticated techniques, the very basic beginnings. We are called TSOI LI HO FUT HUNG, so they leave out the HUNG which is the physical dynamics, power, strength, and dynamic tension. that sucks for them.

[Waidan]

Check your PM :)

Yeah, I couldn't understand leaving out Hung either. How do you get 4 out of 5?

Yeah, Ah Soo are very simple in comparison to some of the more involved techniques, but of course simple != bad.

[germpest]

You didn't prove anything, except to yourself. And you didn't prove anything with false accusations. I can't see the books on the site it says I have to purchuse them, maybe you can be more guiding for the site? The books can open whichever way they choose, because I am assuming you are unaware that they are coded, even if you knew Chinese you wouldn't be able to read them. I don't understand your second paragraph, I know you are wrong, I want to explain but you must make more sense first? I think I have some answers for you... please reply or e-mail me at germpest@hotmail.com, thank you.

[germpest]

no... I only dream of being able to see the books, why are you so skeptical about a code, in the non family hands the books would be devastatingly deadly. and probably misused.

[joedoe]

Just curious - how can you tell which way the books open?

I have seen books that are only 100 years old and they don't look anywhere near as good as those that are supposed to be 500 years old. For one the paper is usually a deep, dirty yellow. Secondly the bindings rarely hold together that well.

But who knows.

[germpest]

also, are you a book binding expert? the books survive only as well as their maker made them.

[germpest]

the books are no joke! you are the joke, wishing we guys could just come out and say what? Jimmy could kill anyone unless they had a **** machine gun :( . Shoalin is nothing in comparison. The people who wrote those books obviously weren't smart enough to code them. frankly I'd code my books, it's the smart thing to do.

[germpest]

what kind of legit argument can I come up with unless I get legit things from you? your accusations are BS, how do you know ANYTHING about them, you know absolutely nothing about them except what you've seen in pictures.

[Waidan]

Point #1 regarding the books:

A friend of mine studied under Jimmy. Says Jimmy referenced the books quite often during classes. They are definitely big-a$$ books, looking to be quite old, written in Chinese. I know one person who's seen them in person, and I've "met" others on line who have. Now beyond that, I have no idea as to the authenticity of the books. They could be cooking manuals. No one knows where they are now (or at least no one is talking), so it's really not worth debating.

Point #2 regarding the gis:

The "official" reasoning for this is pretty well known (wore the gis and used the term "karate" to attract customers who wouldn't know kung fu from dim sum). I was not alive at the time that photo was taken, so it'd be hard for me to argue.

I've talked with James King, Bernie Woo, several old San Soo vets, and other SoCal instructors from other systems about these points and many others. In the end, there's a lot of conjecture, a lot of hearsay, and plenty of contradicting "facts". I formed my own conclusions, but in the end I decided it really doesn't matter. Either you enjoy and respect the style, or you do not. Whether a book opens one direction or another isn't going to change that.

[germpest]

take the best person from whichever shaolin art you wish, then have him challenge Jimmy(rest in peace), then we'd see who's right and who's wrong. this is my last "argument" to you. None of your research could keep you alive.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Waidan
Point #1 regarding the books:

A friend of mine studied under Jimmy. Says Jimmy referenced the books quite often during classes. They are definitely big-a$$ books, looking to be quite old, written in Chinese. I know one person who's seen them in person, and I've "met" others on line who have. Now beyond that, I have no idea as to the authenticity of the books. They could be cooking manuals. No one knows where they are now (or at least no one is talking), so it's really not worth debating.

Interesting. So he referenced them regularly - if so how were they useful if they were coded? Or could he uncode them as he went?


Point #2 regarding the gis:

The "official" reasoning for this is pretty well known (wore the gis and used the term "karate" to attract customers who wouldn't know kung fu from dim sum). I was not alive at the time that photo was taken, so it'd be hard for me to argue.

I've talked with James King, Bernie Woo, several old San Soo vets, and other SoCal instructors from other systems about these points and many others. In the end, there's a lot of conjecture, a lot of hearsay, and plenty of contradicting "facts". I formed my own conclusions, but in the end I decided it really doesn't matter. Either you enjoy and respect the style, or you do not. Whether a book opens one direction or another isn't going to change that.

I don't know much about MA history in the US - was karate on the scene there a lot earlier than kung fu?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by germpest
take the best person from whichever shaolin art you wish, then have him challenge Jimmy(rest in peace), then we'd see who's right and who's wrong. this is my last "argument" to you. None of your research could keep you alive.

I would be very careful with statements like that.

[germpest]

I read it how you think I didn't read it, idiot. and you know nothing about the lineage.

[germpest]

joedoe, I meant nothing of what your thinking, and if taken the wrong way I apologize to anyway who read it.

[germpest]

all I'm saying is your so sure this lineage is bull, but you don't even know if your right, you think you are. I don't know, I'm not part of the family, I've never even been to China. whats with you and straws. One more example: you telling me my father isn't my dad is basically what your doing about this family you don't personally know.

[Waidan]

Hey Joe,

Yeah, from what's been explained to me, Jimmy could read the books just fine. I've never seen the books, and even if I did, I read about as much Chinese as your average badger (which I'm told isn't much) so I can't comment further on the book authenticity. That's the first I've heard of them being "coded" though...seems like people are playing telephone.

Yep, Karate broke on to the scene a good decade or two before David Carradine (sp?) turned kung fu into a household word. I think Judo and Jiu Jitsu gained their foothold here even before Karate did. My dad (now 56) studied Judo as a tyke, and I've got an outstanding (in the humor sense) old Jiu Jitsu manual printed in the U.S. in the 50's. It's cool because the attackers and defenders in each illustration are wearing business suits and fedoras :)

[germpest]

dude you keep coming up with the same crap, my instructor has seen those books, and he also knows who has them, and so do I. All your studying won't help you know if the lineage is true or not. How can you honestly say that you know 100% that his lineage is bull. Even if I knew anything about the history, that I can't read on a website (which I've done, and you most likely have read what I have), you'd just say I was lying or that I need to research it or something.

[Waidan]

xie li wong is going to have a whopper of a tale to tell when he gets back to his lair.

I've often wondered if there's a central Troll Forum somewhere out on the intarweb, where they meet, swap stories, and conspire :)

[germpest]

Theres no documentation that my finger ever existed either.

[Waidan]

Hehe, well so long as you have a sense of humor about it. Keep up the good fight. After you solve this longstanding mystery, you can move on to the fake moon landing, or the JFK murder. Come to think of it, everything occuring prior to the advent of cable television is utterly debatable.

Carry on ;)

[germpest]

it was a very important point, the stain on my floor isn't documented either. you are too "adult" for me I guess. Wait here's a thought, you grow up. You aren't a logical person?

[germpest]

that's classic, you don't have a clue. I never said I was angry. read everything again, then ask yourself if you assumed how I was feelings at the time.

[germpest]

when did I repeatedly reference Jimmy? Hello? you don't know jack. I said I was done, but I changed my mind because I wanted you to keep making an ass of yourself. It's rather amusing listening to you talk about your "vast knowledge". When the point you made weren't even really justified with any proof at all. When did you go to Chinese people in China who knew about the Kwan Yin monestary and ask them about it? Or maybe someone in America who does? please do then come back here and blah blah blah as you always annoying repeat over and over again.

[San Soo Sifu]

germpest please read your private message here on the forum.

[germpest]

you'd be lucky, and priviledged for him to reply to you, I hope he doesn't.

[germpest]

say whatever you want, but if you were here right now, you'd be the one crying like the little baby. "let the adults talk", talk like an adult first, then maybe the adults will talk with you. Maturity comes late in your family?

p.s. I just can't wait for you reply, so I can do what you tell me to and take it all personally. And then I'll go cry because I'm not an adult and I have to abide by a curfue of 10:00 or the cops might come for me.

[germpest]

you amaze me with your nonsense

[germpest]

"So, i'll say this...you need to listen to your sifus and believe what they say. That's the ticket."

I listen to my SIFU, I only have one, just to let you know. not many people have that rank like in some other "paid for rank, martial arts". I listen to him very well, every word he says I treasure like gold. So that if one day any of my family was threatened, I would not have to think and the threat would be gone.

[germpest]

Some of Jimmy's family is still alive, just to let you know, people who knew about their monestary...

[Black Jack]

OT-

Waidan,

Is that book perchance Lighting Jui Jitsu. I consider myself a novice collector of old school self defense books/military close combat/jui jitsu books from the the 60's down.

If that is Lighting Jui Jitsu it is a great book. Though I believe Lighting Jui Jitsu was from the mid 40's. Some good stuff on edge of hand blows.

Cheers,

[Knifefighter]

GP:
Weren't you asking people's opinion on San Soo? Seems like some people gave theirs and then you started to argue with them.

I don't know a lot about San Soo, but I did do a bit of research on it when I was setting up some challenge matches. One thing I do know is the guys I came across couldn't fight quite as well as they believed they could.

[Waidan]

Black Jack -

Actually the title of the book is "Jiu Jitsu Complete". I'm moving this week and I have my books packed away, but if you're interested in any details I can PM you with publishing information etc once we upack. Just let me know.

Knife Fighter -

"One thing I do know is the guys I came across couldn't fight quite as well as they believed they could."

I imagine that's true across the board (regardless of style), lol. That potential overconfidence (in my opinion) is a result of a lack of free sparring, and perhaps too much help from "resisting" opponents while practicing techniques. It's important for training partners to make you work for your throws/takedowns/etc... flopping like a ragdoll doesn't help anyone in the long run.

[germpest]

well I'm glad I'm doing harm to the name. better for me and everyone else who are learning the art.

knifefighter-
I asked opinions, then I got one, then I wanted further explaining on why those opinions were like that. then xie wong comes along and doesn't really give me an opinion he just trys to degrade, misrepresent, and denounce the existance of a family.

[shaolin kungfu]

His opinion is that your style is not what it claims to be. Did I get that right xie li wong?

[dezhen2001]

Kung-Fu San Soo is a five-family system representing the different fighting aspects of the art.

Tsoi Ga - the family of punches and kicks.

Li Ga - the family of leverages and throws.

Hoi Ga - the family of pressure points.

Fut Ga - representative of mind over body.

Hung Ga - the family of power.

With the combination of the five families, San Soo is recognized throughout the martial arts world as one of the most devastating and effective fighting systems today.

When these five families are combined together we have the art of Tsoi-I,i-Ho-Fut-Hung. Based on these five families the student learns to use combination of punches, kicks, blocks, leverages, throws and sweeps directed to vital points of the human body.
Just interested in this as i have never heard of anything like it before? is it related to the 5 common southern family styles? Hung, Li, Fut etc.?

Also if you look at this certificate here (http://www.sansoocenter.com/MasterCertif.gif), i recognise the characters Li, Fut and others on the left. Li means plum and Fut means Buddha... what connection do they have with leverages/throws and mind? :)

thanks,
dawood

[germpest]

Originally posted by dezhen2001

Also if you look at this certificate here (http://www.sansoocenter.com/MasterCertif.gif), i recognise the characters Li, Fut and others on the left. Li means plum and Fut means Buddha... what connection do they have with leverages/throws and mind? :)

I am interested also, what is that meaning in? cantonese, or mandarin? for me to answer I'd have to ask my Sifu, he'd know for sure. I'll print out your question and ask him tomorrow. I do know that LI GA MA is the footwork, stances, balance, kicks. Actually the grappling falls under HO GA as well as leverages and a few other things. hope that was some help though.

oh and I just realized those are misrepresentations of the TSOI LI HO FUT HUNG , what they consist of, TSOI isn't punches and kicks. if you wish to know what they are you'll have to PM or e-mail me at germpest@hotmail.com .

xie wong-
the monestary was QWAN YIN.

[dezhen2001]

well, the writing is the same, cantonese or mandarin. Li is the word for plum, but also a common family surname - like bruce Lee and Jet Li.

The terms are in cantonese though, Fut=Fa in mandarin, Hung=Hong etc.

why not just post the explanations on this thread so others can understand what you mean too? im sure others are interested :)

dawood

[KC Elbows]

Okay, I have newfound respect for the members of this forum. For like the two years(?) I've been reading this forum, I've noticed that every once in a while, a san soo thread will start, asking questions about it, and none of the members seem exactly eager to keep the thread alive. At best, you get "Well, their applications are standard and seem valid, but I gotta go.":D

Now I understand. You've all been taking the high road and ducking a lineage war.

I'm so proud of you guys.

BTW, just going off what I've seen on the internet, and that's probably not a great representation, but this san soo I see there sure doesn't look very chinese to me. Not that chinese is the only valid expression of martial arts, just saying that most chinese styles look like chinese styles in some way shape or form. How come this looks...not chinese?

Also, for the record, whether the temple is spelled kwan or qwan makes little difference to chinese historians, who probably aren't looking for it's english name in chinese records.

[dezhen2001]

KC you sarcastic ******* :D

dawood

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
KC you sarcastic ******* :D

dawood

That's not true. I know my father. Or, at least, I can narrow down the possibilities to a small enough number that I can afford to get them all father's day cards.

[dezhen2001]

thats what i get for drawing one too many * :p

dawood

[KC Elbows]

Dad?

[dezhen2001]

LOL! :D

ummm... u just wanted to see what possible reply i could have didnt ya? well i dont have one :( (apart from no im not...)

dawood

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
LOL! :D

ummm... u just wanted to see what possible reply i could have didnt ya? well i dont have one :( (apart from no im not...)

dawood

You pasted that from an old post, didn't you?

I'm not naive enough to think I'm the first ******* you said that to.:p

[Waidan]

A lot of folks say it looks very much like Kenpo. One student of Jimmy's I spoke with said that "back in the day" Ed Parker frequented Jimmy's studio, and made a lot of notes about what was being taught there. The student believed a lot of Parker's basis for his American Kenpo was taken from Jimmy.

Conversely, I spoke with another teacher (entirely different liniage) who was involved in the SoCal MA scene at the time, and he claimed that Jimmy and Ed were friends, but he believed that Ed and Jimmy exchanged info (rather than Ed simply receiving).

In any case, there appears to be a connection between the systems.

[germpest]

Ed Parker took from San Soo and anything else he thought would make his art good.

1) TSOI (CHOY) GA KUHN HOW (fists, closed hand strikes)
2) LI GA MA (stances, footwork, balance, kicking)
3) HO GA (open hand, chops, claws, leverages, grappling, pressure points)
4) FUT GA (Spiritual and mind dynamics, philosophy, humility)
5) HUNG GA (physical dynamics, power, strength, dynamic tension)

does that answer anything about the meaning?

[Waidan]

Originally posted by germpest
Ed Parker took from San Soo and anything else he thought would make his art good.


Well, like I was saying, that's one belief. I tend to think that's fairly accurate, as Ed Parker wasn't shy about borrowing from any legitimate sources he could find. Kind of a pioneer in the American MMA scene, when you think about it. I commend him for his efforts.

OTOH, if there was a 2-way exchange of information between the two, that would explain some of the seemingly non-chinese elements found in the art.

But again, I wasn't there, so I can only speculate the nature of Jimmy and Ed's friendship, and the knowledge that passed between them. Thus, I only state that there's strong evidence of a link between the systems.

[Rockwood]

There might be some confusion about Ed Parker's relationship with Jimmy Woo.

There were (at least) two Jimmy Woo's in LA during the "good ol days"

Jimmy H. Woo -now deceased, taught San Soo. I've never heard that he knew Parker, but may have.

Jimmy Wing Woo - currently retired in the LA area, taught Southern style kung fu (Wing Woo Gar) and Yang style Taiji.

He met Ed Parker at Professor Lau's in San Francisco in the early 60's and went to LA to teach Parker & his students. He wrote the majority of Parker's "Secrets of Chinese Karate" and was the subject of the line drawings in that book.

After that Parker and Woo had a falling out. A number of Parkers students decided to stay with Woo. He taught on Hollywood Blvd. since 1964.

-Jess O

[Waidan]

I'm aware of the "other" Jimmy Woo. I found a number of articles refering to him, in some cases describing him as a White Crane teacher (dunno if that's true or not), and an assistant instructor to Ed Parker. I agree this further adds to the confusion on the matter, though I should point out Jimmy (of San Soo) was a pretty well known character in these parts, and I imagine people familiar with him (particularly his students) would be unlikely to confuse the two men.

Good point though, I know I was certainly thrown for a loop when I first found information referring to the still-living Jimmy Woo.

[germpest]

Jimmy H.Woo did not change San Soo at all from when he learned it himself.

[joedoe]

So he did it exactly the way his master did it? Not a single change at all? How do you know?

[Waidan]

germpest -

It's possible Jimmy handed down his art just as he had learned it from his uncle. It's possible the style you practice now originated in the Kwan Yin temple, and has passed through the centuries unaltered. But chances are, it's just not that cut-and-dry.

Sometimes it's difficult to dissect an art (and a history) that you feel passionately about, but excepting everything you are told as gospel truth isn't necessarily a good idea. Don't get me wrong, Mr. Williams would never lie or exaggerate to any of his students, he's far too good a character for that.

The first time I ever heard of any controversy surrounding KFSS, I was utterly confused. Not Chinese? Not Kung Fu? What the heck were these white devils thinking?? Well, it took me a while to open my mind to the idea, but once I started doing a lot of poking around, I found a few surprises. Meeting folks from other lineages and comparing skills further convinced me that something wasn't all together right.

As I've said before, none of this lineage garbage really matters in the end...the bottom line is whether you enjoy the art, and whether it works for you. However, don't be so quick to dismiss valid questions and outside information out of hand. People will have their own opinions, and you can choose to respect them or ignore them...but dismissing them without having any evidence or firsthand knowledge doesn't do anyone any good.

[germpest]

xie le wong-
the Qwan Yin monestary exists today... so how can you make the arguement that it doesn't have any documentation that it doesn't? Go see it with your own eyes, I work out with someone who has almost everyday.

[dezhen2001]

where exactly is it? i know of a few that worship guan yin, but not an actual temple deicated to her... kinda cool :)

dawood

[germpest]

don't know, I guess I could ask my friend when I see him next. I don't really know how well my directions would be since I know nothing of the area, or even the country. but i will ask if you would like to know.

[dezhen2001]

the city name would be cool, as i have friends who live in both north and south china :)

dawood

[germpest]

I wish I spoke Chinese, then I wouldn't be so **** confused when you say "lin quan yuan" is the same as Qwan Yin. Also scientists can't date things properly. To my knowledge, KUNG FU originated 3500-4000 years ago, not KUNG-FU SAN SOO. Maybe you should read your sites again. Read other sites not just that one, because that one is just one site. That site fairs to differentiate from the birth of kung fu and the compiled version Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung.

taken from www.kungfusansoo.com
"SAN SOO as taught by Grandmaster Jimmy H. Woo, had its origins in the very basics of Chinese feudal life two thousands years ago."

key point here is origins.

[germpest]

you must be blind

[San Soo Sifu]

Originally posted by xie li wong
First of all, there's NO documentation that the Kwan Yin temple EVER existed in CHINA BY China. The only documentation out there is by San Soo people!


Originally posted by xie li wong
Kung Fu Qi Gong Magazine Jan/Feb 2003 Issue *here ya go Gene*

And I quote:

"The archaeologist proposed that there was much circumstantial evidence in the find which pointed to this temple (named "Lin Quan Yuan") as being the Southern Shaolin Temple mentioned in legend and history. It would take another two years of investigation by prominent scholars, archeologists, and historians to come to the conclusion that this was indeed more likely than not the southern Shaolin Temple of legend. The Southern Shaolin Temple was built in 557 AD, 61 years after the Northern Shaolin Temple in Songshan Henan Province."

[San Soo Sifu]

"The archaeologist proposed that there was much circumstantial evidence in the find which pointed to this temple (named "Lin Quan Yuan") as being the Southern Shaolin Temple mentioned in legend and history."

Quan Yuan is a dialect variation of Kwan Yin. Lin means temple. Do you speak Chinese? Do you know and understand Chinese culture, history, and religion? Those are sincere questions; not meant to be insulting, or anything else. Also, if you wish to enter into a discussion with me, then do so with respect; otherwise I will simply ignore your posts.

Take care, and stay safe.

[germpest]

Originally posted by xie li wong

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...are we getting the point here?? There's NO temple called KWAN YIN. Unless you all are reading something I'm not....



Stop reading jack-as*, your a retard. When I find out what city it is in, dezhen2001 will verify that it exists, right dezhen2001? You need to shut your mouth, because your researching isn't going to teach you everything. research this...

[San Soo Sifu]

Okay, we're done. Thank you for your time. Take care, and stay safe. Best of luck to you.

[germpest]

xie li wong-
you want proof, you want documentation, I didn't want to give you this site but... well here click here (http://aetheband.8m.com)

[dezhen2001]

San Soo Sifu: i didnt know Lin meant a temple... i only know of Si and Miao in Mandarin :) possibly also Dian or Gong (which usually mean palace)... but never heard of Lin before until now.

Do you have any of the chinese characters for the name of the temple? It may be easier to understand that way.

As far as the city, it may be somewhere i dont know or my friends dont know :) Most of the common MA temples are well known, like the white cloud temple in beijing, or wudang, shaolin etc. But that doesnt mean they all are :)

dawood

[germpest]

we don't think we're the shi*, as you say. We need no proof, but if you want some, go fight a master of san soo. I dare you. As wise SanSooSifu once said... we're done.

[KC Elbows]

I just want to know whay it doesn't look like kung fu. That's all. I mean, there's so many kung fu arts, but they all seem to have that kung fu look. San soo looks...not chinese. I mean, that's the only problem I've seen people have with it as a style, is that you are expected to look people straight in the face and pretend you believe they practice chinese kung fu when it really seems to be...not chinese.

I mean, somehow bjj, kendo, aiki-jutsu, judo, escrima, western fencing, etc., managed to plod along without being chinese when they clearly aren't chinese. Yet it seems like such an important point to the san soo community to be chinese kung fu, and the way the style appears to be organized appears so...not chinese. I mean, if your founders had documentation, isn't it sort of silly to expect the whole of the martial arts community to take it on faith that you're from this other temple and all, when you won't even show your documentation? Isn't that asking a lot? It's not like geeky historians are even gonna steal your form.

Really, if you told a group of any historians, say French historians, that you have a secret book of Clausewitz's that details tank warfare well ahead of it's time, you'd be expected to supply the evidence BEFORE other people would be expected to take your claims seriously. This is exactly the same, before you can expect your history pre Jimmy Woo teaching to be taken seriously, you have to provide some evidence, some case for trust in other details of your history, so that chinese historians have something to work with.

I mean, without that, the reader is going to look at this info and correctly surmise that the most likely explanation is the truth. And they will obviously look at the list of mysterious kung fu styles that have sprouted up without supporting evidence of their supposed ties to actual well known kung fu, except for mysterious documents the members claim to have, but will not divulge for a variety of reasons:

Shaolin Do(supposedly original shaolin, yet surprisingly, not chinese, though in their defense, they appear to have consciously decided not to take things too far, and instead allow instructors to study under a variety of masters and incorporate that into their curriculum- cudos to them for not taking it to the creepy extreme others have)

Chung Moo Quan's tang non form and Boggwa(the 1500 year old version made by a monk named boggwa and also named after the sound his breathing made, yet suspiciously reminiscent, though totally missing the point of, pa kua)

Temple Kung Fu(supposedly containing a family style that appears to the average chinese martial artist to be... not chinese- also run by some guy whose mere existence actually makes Steven Seagal appear a measurable quantity on the relatively normal meter)


A host of other examples exist, but the point is, no legitimate and unbiased historian supports the san soo historical claims, because the people making those claims don't back them. The difference I see is that your group and shaolin do at least maintain their original and valid martial arts instead of coming out with mysterious new additions that have nothing to do with martial arts, but that does not a valid historical argument make.

Frankly, your history does not seem worthy of your art, because it seems made up.

I mean, it's all fun, the idea of secret temples and hidden manuals, but you can't expect others to believe you based on no good faith as far as providing real historical documentation, can you?

[dezhen2001]

good morning to you KC.

dawood

[KC Elbows]

Good morning. Care for a cinnamon roll?

[dezhen2001]

no thanks, ive already eaten. Now if it was a donut... i could be tempted :)

i can see you must have done a lot of research on the topic of freaky MA huh? Its really a very scary thing! :(

dawood

[KC Elbows]

Actually, most of them aren't scary. I think there's a point where most say 'you know, it's nice, the money and all, but this is going a little too far' and stop short. I don't mind them.

Then you get the ones with fanatics. They're freaky. The thing is, it doesn't matter which school, the fanatics always use the same arguments, it's like a group mind. Sometimes they even support each other in a codependant sort of way "I know how you feel, these doubters don't believe in our alien monkey spew legend either, the fools. They'll never know the power of alien monkey spew."

Frankly, I think san soo is okay as far as that goes. There's a few fanatics, but there's a lot of just regular practitioners.

As for research, dude, you have not even heard anywhere near the worst it can be. All these lineage wars on here are piddly squabbles.

[dezhen2001]

for sure KC - i been on RD's dungeon - thats a whole different kettle of fish! :D

thought u guys did pretty well against the legions of CMQ there.

dawood

[Waidan]

What are we in, day 3? But the troops are looking weary, and support back home for the war is dwindling.

Good post, KC...a sudden injection of logical thinking was certainly in order. I thought the boggwa guy was SD though? I think the first I heard of him was from Willow Sword, when he attended one of their schools. Perhaps my memory is failing me.

[KC Elbows]

I was formerly a chung moonie. The boggwa story is from chung moo.

[Waidan]

Ah, I stand corrected. Good to see you made it over the wall ;)

[germpest]

the question for you KC is, does it feel Chinese? The only other chinese martial arts I've seen have been in movies. Where they probably weren't even a true martial arts, just movie martial arts. I couldn't tell you why "it doesn't look chinese". All this little things don't even matter anyways. Is Hung Gar Chinese? Because I've heard that it and San Soo look very similar.

[Waidan]

There are some outward similarities between KFSS and Hung Gar, but there is a lot more going on internally with the Hung Gar system (for example there is no KFSS equivalent of Iron Wire). If you ask about Hung Gar (or do a search for it) on the Southern Forum, you'll get some good info from IllusionFist & Co.

Sorry to butt in, just wanted to suggest that.

[KC Elbows]

I've never seen any san soo that reminded me of hung gar in the slightest. I've seen horse stance in both, but horse stance is throughout the asian arts.

[KC Elbows]

Which still misses the point that you can't really expect people to believe or act like they believe your system's claims when those who claim they can prove them refuse to do so, and leave their practitioners out there to take the flack.

[germpest]

I guess whoever believes believes. Whoever doesn't doesn't.

[phoenix-eye]

Sorry to interrupt the nice friendly debate....

I just like the bit about the coded books that would make you deadly if you read them....he he he

The only way the book would make you deadly is if the code told you to batter your opponent about the head with it....

Oooooooh - the mysteries of Kung Fu.............

Just read Hello magazine that's f&^!*g deadly......

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by germpest
I guess whoever believes believes. Whoever doesn't doesn't.

History is not meant to be a belief based system. That's my whole point. That's all I'm saying. I'm willing to stand up for your martial art, but your history just isn't history. Now, if you have evidence that suggests it IS, the burden of proof is on you, not anyone else. I'm not attacking you for your history, I'm just saying that the proof is too thin to call it history, or to be upset with others for not accepting it as history.

[germpest]

proof exists that you do not know of, obviously I don't know what or where it is, so I can't help any of you. History this history that, you don't even know what history is. You are the ones who are deceived.

[wushu chik]

Not being able to stay out of this any longer...I decided to give the correct Websters Dictionary definition of "History".

his*to*ry (his'*ta*ri*) n. the study of past events; a record of events in the life of a nation, state, instuitution, epoch, etc.

Now, since we ALL know what history means, as per Websters Dictionary, carry on.....

OH...and I forgot to add something else.

de*cep*tion (di*sep'*shan) n. the act of deceiving; fraud; illusion. deceptive n. causing a false impression.

NOW, with that being said....who's the one being deceived, and who's the one trying to learn the HISTORY????

~Wen~

[Knifefighter]

gp:
Do you train and spar unrehearsed against resisting training partners? Can you use the same techniqeus you learn in practice when sparring? When you train, are you working hard enough that you are breathing hard for extended periods of time? Do you test your stuff against people from other schools/styles? Do you hit with full power and learn to take punches from others who are hitting you with full power? Do you do striking, grappling and groundfighting? Are your techniques modified based on what you are learning when you go against other practitioners/styles?

If not, and you want to be a good empty-handed fighter, look elsewhere.

If so, you are fine.

History doesn't matter.

[KC Elbows]

Knifefighter,
I've said the same thing in virtually all of my posts, that the art is, as far as I know, fine. However, the history DOES matter when you expect everyone else to conform to your belief or look on them as heathens without having even one shred of evidence in the hands of historians.

[KC Elbows]

Originally posted by germpest
proof exists that you do not know of, obviously I don't know what or where it is, so I can't help any of you.

How can you not know what it is or where it is and know that it is? You are saying something exists that you can't even define. So basically, you were told it is, right?

Do you see why you cannot expect others to go on such info?

I'm not saying you're lying or that anyone is lying, I'm saying you are being unreasonable in expecting others to accept what you've accepted sight unseen, and holding it against others when they don't do so, even though you cannot support your statements.

[germpest]

knifef-
I disagree.

"Do you train and spar unrehearsed against resisting training partners?"

yes

"Can you use the same techniqeus you learn in practice when sparring?"

Of course, whats the point for "sparring", we don't spar though.

"When you train, are you working hard enough that you are breathing hard for extended periods of time?"

yes

"Do you test your stuff against people from other schools/styles?"

if they come to our studio.

"Do you do striking, grappling and groundfighting?"

of course, San Soo is a complete art.

"Are your techniques modified based on what you are learning when you go against other practitioners/styles?"

the techniques just teach how to fight, when we actually fight it's from the entire knowlegde we have gathered, and we judge what we do on how serious the threat is. For example, if some my friend was drunk and out of control and was messing with me, I'd just control him with a leverage. But if it was life threatening, then I wouldn't think I would just take everything out.

"Do you hit with full power and learn to take punches from others who are hitting you with full power?"

this is where we differ. others hitting with full power to the places where we strike cause severe damage, and I don't know about you but I'd like to be alive when I leave class every night. And not have broken knees, ankles, nose, jaw, ribs. We do hit the heavy bag though, for that full power, and the hand bags(whatever those red pad things are).

"History doesn't matter."
and I agree with you on that

[germpest]

KC I don't have the info, but I know how does. And they aren't on this forum, and I'm not going to go ask him to prove the existance that need not be proved. To you it does and to everyone else who cares, I don't. You really want answers go find someone who knows and cares. Perhaps a previous private student of Jimmy H. Woo will know. Good luck

[Suntzu]

We do hit the heavy bag though, for that full power, and the hand bags(whatever those red pad things are). ewwww… atleast get some real pads…

[germpest]

what are you talking about suntzu

[Suntzu]

those lil flimsy red pads… I hope youre not using those… they suck…

[germpest]

nah, maybe i should have said forearm pads? they extend from about the finger tips to a few inches past the elbow. and they are about 4 inches thick

[Suntzu]

OK… u saved yourself… until the "in life(WITHOUT CONTACT)" thing in the other thread…

[germpest]

I don't really understand.

[gfhegel21]

Hope this interesting topic stays alive. The san soo crowd never seem all that eager to explain or provide evidence for their history. Their history, in my opinion, sounds very invented. Maybe there's some truth to it, who knows, but the kfss people never really try to defend it.

[Jowbacca]

I don't write often but I'm about to vomit from reading this.

germpest
Don't worry, suntzu's just being an @ss because he's seen bad behavior from some more senior members on this forum.

Suntzu
The guy puts out a general request for forms clips and you bite his head off for not wanting "realism". He mentions some pads and you jump to the conclusion that they're some type of "inferior" training tools. Quit being a self-righteous d!ck.

Believe it or not, in kung fu people other than san shou & kuoshu people fight; I've seen it. I kind of understand Shaolin Tiger ranting and raving cuz he's sick of getting shat upon by traditionalists.

I don't look down on San Shou folks, I'd like to be one myself; heck I was planning on seeing if Owings Mills was open this weekend at 4 for some san shou training. What you need to realize is that ST00 says stuff he KNOWS is not true just to garner responses.

It's about respect. He has none because he's sick of getting sold out by people with no respect for what he's doing, so he cr@ps on everyone. I don't know that you've fought the same resistance from the traditional crowd. Come to the same conclusions when you've put up with the same cr@p. Don't borrow his self righteous mentality.

He moans and complains about kung fu people not coming out and fighting, and then bashes on the Tai Yim guys cuz they don't win enough for him? Come on now, you know that's just WRONG. Those guys lace up the same gloves, take the same risks ans understand the same pain as you. So what if they don't win!?! They deserve respect for stepping up.

Heck, I could make the same statement about a couple of Shawn Liu guys I saw "step up" at Taiji Legacy a few years back, only to both get the cr@p kicked out of them by some Thai-BJJ guys that crashed the comp. At the same comp, I saw a mantis guy and a couple clf guys do pretty well.

Get over yourselves. The rest of us don't do it YOUR way so we're garbage? PUH LEASE. ST00 has his little ranting kick, cuz that's his thing. I'd hate to see you adopt the same stance on his example. You seemed like a pretty cool guy otherwise. I'd like to see everyone get over their distaste and disrespect for each other's styles and just get along.

[germpest]

gfhegel21
I am doing everything in my power to get this information to the people. If I get anything I'll start a new thread. and then all this crap can start all over again. =)

[germpest]

chewy
has some good points, but I know nothing of the ST00 issue.

[KC Elbows]

proof exists that you do not know of, obviously I don't know what or where it is, so I can't help any of you.


KC I don't have the info, but I know how does.


Okay, which is it?

I'm sorry if I come off strong, but there's a number of people who have sought to make up martial arts history in the last thirty years, and I really don't feel it's my job to support it.

When I describe my arts history, I start with the verifiable, and end with the section prefaced with 'and here's all the unverifiable legends'. I have no problem with legends being in there, as long as it's clear they are legends. But when they are listed as truth, and when the speaker has no reason to believe they are truth, I don't feel it's my duty to do the same.

[germpest]

KC both, I said I don't know where it is, I know someone how has it, they know where it is. NOT ME

[KC Elbows]

Fair enough, I edited my previous message to tone it down a bit and explain my position.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by germpest


this is where we differ. others hitting with full power to the places where we strike cause severe damage, and I don't know about you but I'd like to be alive when I leave class every night. And not have broken knees, ankles, nose, jaw, ribs. We do hit the heavy bag though, for that full power, and the hand bags(whatever those red pad things are).

If you never hit will full power against an opponent who is also hitting you with full power, your entire system will break down the first time you ever fight someone for real if that person (trained or otherwise) has hit and been hit at full power.

[germpest]

knifefighter -
address the matter of that I and my opp. only strike vital areas of the body. If we hit those areas even lightly, let alone full force, it can and will severely injure us.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by germpest
knifefighter -
address the matter of that I and my opp. only strike vital areas of the body. If we hit those areas even lightly, let alone full force, it can and will severely injure us.

Are you saying you don't even make contact when you train?

[germpest]

also KC it was not in the last thirty years that San Soo's history was "made up" as you say. It's been the same in America since it was brought here in 1931.

so I'll ask someone I think who knows, tell me everything that needs to be known, in a well structured list. and I will do my best to get the answers from a valued source, my teacher himself, who had private lessons from Jimmy.

and just for everyones knowledge I was only joking about the manuals being coded.

[germpest]

knifefighter

the contact that is made, is when leverages, sweeps, throws, ground/grappling techiniques are applied. Now if we need to simulate say: a sweep with a chop to the throat, then we would push below the throat on the chest, and sweep for the reaction.
But you still haven't addressed my question twice now.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by germpest
the contact that is made, is when leverages, sweeps, throws, ground/grappling techiniques are applied. Now if we need to simulate say: a sweep with a chop to the throat, then we would push below the throat on the chest, and sweep for the reaction.


When you make this kind of contact, how is it done? Do you hit, takle, crash, takedown, etc?

Do you ever wear protective gear and hit full force to the "vital" areas?

After you do your sweep and your simulated throat attack, do you continue on from there? Or do you assume that your throat attack has killed or disabled your opponent and stop?

When you work groundfighting, do you continue until someone is submitted?




Originally posted by germpest
But you still haven't addressed my question twice now.

My answer to your question is dependent on your training methods, which is why I'm trying to get a better handle on how you train.

[germpest]

explain hit, tackle, crash, takedown. I espesially don't understand crash. we do plenty of takedowns. this contact is done aggressively though.

"Do you ever wear protective gear and hit full force to the "vital" areas?"
no

"After you do your sweep and your simulated throat attack, do you continue on from there? Or do you assume that your throat attack has killed or disabled your opponent and stop?"

of course we follow up. we could accidently miss the throat you never know, right?

"When you work groundfighting, do you continue until someone is submitted?"

all leverages stop when the opp. taps, so yes, on a leg scissor choke or an "arm bar" I guess you can call it. Let me clearify that we don't just say lets do grappling, it will just but one of the many things we do in a workout when we see the opportunity to do it. And also groundfighting is just that. When we fight while were on the ground, this in no way constitutes a submission technique. We don't do sumissions really, just in class. If it were a fight we'd break the arm or what ever we were submitting, you know?

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by germpest
explain hit, tackle, crash, takedown. I espesially don't understand crash. we do plenty of takedowns. this contact is done aggressively though.

You've got to make contact to take someone down- and you usually have to set them up by hitting them, agressively closing to clinching range (crashing the line), sliding in for a single or double leg, or a variety of other things you have to do to get in and do a throw or takedown.


Originally posted by germpest
And also groundfighting is just that. When we fight while were on the ground, this in no way constitutes a submission technique. We don't do sumissions really, just in class. If it were a fight we'd break the arm or what ever we were submitting, you know?

If you don't spar submsissions at 100%, the chances are very high you won't be able do a break when you try to do it in a live situation.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by germpest
"Do you ever wear protective gear and hit full force to the "vital" areas?"
no

Then the probabilities are very high that you won't be able to hit these vital areas with enough force and accuracy to do real damages.

[germpest]

in your opinion. Stop by a true San Soo school sometime.

[Fen]

Y would some one stop by a san soo school. When they are wright and we are wrong.

With all the people that have just tried to open your mind to san soo and CMA? Please try to open your MIND!

~Jason:confused:

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by germpest
in your opinion. Stop by a true San Soo school sometime.

How will that change my opinion? How will I know it is a "real" San Soo school?

[germpest]

they didn't try to open my mind. My mind is open. They would stop by a San Soo school to see how we train. If you were reading the previous replies you wouldn't ask that question, or would you? WELL YOU ALL CAN GO TALK CRAP ON HISTORY it's not going to make any difference in anyones life about anything at all.

[germpest]

real San Soo as: taught by Jimmy H. Woo, unaltered from his teachings, go the the www.kungfusansoo.com site, all those master say that they promise to teach what I call REAL San Soo.

[Fen]

Originally posted by germpest
they didn't try to open my mind. My mind is open. They would stop by a San Soo school to see how we train. If you were reading the previous replies you wouldn't ask that question, or would you? WELL YOU ALL CAN GO TALK CRAP ON HISTORY it's not going to make any difference in anyones life about anything at all.


Your RIGHT I"m WRONG! I gess my 25 years in MA will do nothing here! And I know several san soo teachers and have been to there schools and see there class! As they to mine. but you have a year or so in training to my 25 years. So I will let YOU teach us Y we will not make a difference to poeple!

So i'm sorry that I got in your way!

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by germpest
"Do you test your stuff against people from other schools/styles?"

if they come to our studio.

But you're not really sparring full contact, right? Does that mean you've never tried your stuff out in a full contact environment against anyone?

[Fen]

Ty XLW, but no TY!

One can be led to water,
But you can not force him to drink it,
But you can drown him in it!

~Jason:cool:

[germpest]

nope, no full contact. knifefighter if I tryed my stuff out in full contact, they would die. I did do a pushclaw to my step brother the other day though, and brought him right to the ground. So I have tried little things out. I did a simple wrist leverage to my friends X-gf and she went straight on the ground, it was fun.

I'm not trying to teach anyone anything, I'm not to that level yet. If I were I wouldn't teach any of you.

[Fen]

Said by germpest
I'm not trying to teach anyone anything, I'm not to that level yet. If I were I wouldn't teach any of you.


hummmmmmmmm then you tell me please Y you ask Q?

(As i get up and walk out of the room!)

~Jason

[illusionfist]

A few months ago i posted a question about San Soo and unfortunately nobody who practiced it replied. Now that we have the attention of some practitioners, i'd like to ask the question again. I read an article that basically said Jimmy Woo's real name was Chan Su Dek and that he is actually a descendant of Chan Heung (which makes a CLF connection) and that he learned the family martial arts system. Some of this goes contrary to earlier histories that have been reported by san soo folks, but my question is how is it that the family art (which was CLF as practiced by the Chan family) that became San Soo has not even the faintest resemblance to CLF and how is this difference reconciled?

For verification, it could be quite possible for the Chan family to verify the existance of Chan Su Dek since the family records i believe are at the King Mui village.

As for a hung gar connection, I am of the same opinion as KC Elbows. I've seen san soo and it looks nothing like hung gar. Although in contrast, to compare the systems (since Hung Gar is actually claimed within the san soo system) and see if it actually has hung gar principles (which i doubt because it doesn't exhibit them) would be something of interest.

Actually on a principle level, from what i've researched of San Soo, the art doesn't exhibit much of anything of the arts that are found within its claims. There is a lot more to the arts than just outward appearance, like with the claim of hung gar and using dynamic tension, etc etc. This isn't the defining factor of the system and its merely a tool to develop a bridge. So if the specific bridgework was mentioned as a tool/skill, then in my view the claim would be more valid than just mentioning something of outward appearance.

The stance work is very non-chinese (i'd guess karate-ish) and yet the claim of Li Gar Ma (Li Ga Ma) is made. This system is a shorthand system and the footwork is very different to what is exhibited within the san soo system. There is no shorthand reference at all, no usage of tun to fou chum, fu bui, etc.

Please dont take this post as derogatory. I would actually like to know how all of this is reconciled within the San Soo system because as it stands, many of the arts lumped together are quite antithetical.

[Archangel]

germpest,

"if I tryed my stuff out in full contact, they would die"

So, if you do happen to get into an altercation on the street you would kill your opponent??

[monk weed]

Illusion fist

I remember your post as I was the only one to answer it. I do not practice san soo but I know alittle of the connection with CLF. Supposedly Jimmy Woo had a great uncle named Chan Siu Hung. Chan Siu Hung was a well documented practitioner of CLF as he was one of Chan Heungs top students. He however was not a blood relative of the Chans. He was considered a stepson. I did some research and found confirmation that he was indeed related to Jimmy Woo. I don't know if Jimmy Woo had any training with his uncle. My information came from the Chan family's web site.

[germpest]

archangel
yes I would kill the person no matter what... No but seriously, I'm just saying trying out the art full contact would be useless unless I was defending myself. If the severity of the to situation on the street called for death, then they would die (hopefully). But if it was some lame guy on a power trip you might not even get injured.

illusionfist-
I'd rather you e-mail me, because I'm sick of this forum. but what MONK WEED said may be true. Jimmy's name was Chin, Siu Dek. I've heard that his great uncle Chin, Siu Hung practiced CLF. CLF didn't become San Soo. As for the hung gar thing, I've only heard that it looks similar, like I said. The hung system is not claimed in San Soo, you are mistaken. Hung the symbol is, but I've also heard that is in regards to respect for the Great Uncle. I can't be certain of anything though. It doesn't claim to have any of those arts in it's system, but the system is comprised of those names for their own meanings. But I really don't know anything about this stupid history crap. And I've only aquired this knowledge in the previous couple of days.

"I would actually like to know how all of this is reconciled within the San Soo system because as it stands, many of the arts lumped together are quite antithetical."

maybe San Soo is a compilation of the very best things from all the Tsoi Li Hoi Fut Hung. And maybe those bits were aranged so well making them thetical(if that's a word). I don't know why the stances look karate-ish. It's not karate. that's for sure.

[illusionfist]

Originally posted by germpest

illusionfist-
The hung system is not claimed in San Soo, you are mistaken. Hung the symbol is, but I've also heard that is in regards to respect for the Great Uncle. I can't be certain of anything though. It doesn't claim to have any of those arts in it's system, but the system is comprised of those names for their own meanings. But I really don't know anything about this stupid history crap. .

Germpest- than this part of a previous statement makes absolutely no sense if just the names are used and not the actual systems. Aside from the name, there really isn't a symbolic nature to make it a "gar" (should be Jia the way you guys use mandarin, but you seem to mix dialects) If it was paying respect to one of his family members, the family's surname would have been used and not the guys first name. If it were say using Hung to pay homage to the Ming emperor (one of the reasons why Hung Gar is named as such), then that would make sense, but as shown below, there are clear technique references-

Kung-Fu San Soo is a five-family system representing the different fighting aspects of the art.

Tsoi Ga - the family of punches and kicks.

Li Ga - the family of leverages and throws.

Hoi Ga - the family of pressure points.

Fut Ga - representative of mind over body.

Hung Ga - the family of power.

I believe the above was from a website (i snagged it from dezhen's post). This next part is taken from the article i initially mentioned that says Jimmy Woo is Chan Siu Dek-

"Tsai Ga-stessing hand strikes

Li Ga- stressing footwork, balance, and leg attacks

Mo Ga- short hand strikes, low kicks and staff techniques

Liu Ga- short to middle arm strikes stressing open hand techniques

Hung Ga- Dynamic tension exercise. Low and wide open forms"

Then there is another division which uses the current terms of Tsai Li Hoc Fut Hung (still the mixing of mandarin and cantonese as you'll see below)-

"Tsai Ga Kuen Cow- short range techniques

Li Ga Mah (Li Jia)- leg techniques and balance

Hoc Ga Pai- pressure, nerve, and acupuncture points and leverage (chin na) techniques.

Fut Ga Jeurng (Fo Jia)- open hand and soft techniques

Hung Ga (Xiong Jia {this confuses me cuz this is not the mandarin way of saying Hung Gar. The mandarin is Hong Jia. So this might possibly be a reference to something else}- Dynamic tension exercise. Low and wide open forms."

(Taken from the Nov/Dec 2002 issue of KFQ- The Long History of Tsai Li Fo San Soo- Buddhism and the Martial Arts by James R. Benkert)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by germpest
nope, no full contact. knifefighter if I tryed my stuff out in full contact, they would die. I did do a pushclaw to my step brother the other day though, and brought him right to the ground. So I have tried little things out. I did a simple wrist leverage to my friends X-gf and she went straight on the ground, it was fun.

I'm not trying to teach anyone anything, I'm not to that level yet. If I were I wouldn't teach any of you.

Ooops. McDojo alert!!!!!

[germpest]

right...

[joedoe]

So you think it is believeable to say "My art is too deadly for sparring"?

[joedoe]

I guess my alarm bells ring when someone says "my art is too deadly for sparring"

[germpest]

respect only goes to those who deserve it or earned it. My master doesn't talk about other schools, let alone telling us to respect them. Except when he is talking about the weaknesses of the other styles.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by germpest
respect only goes to those who deserve it or earned it. My master doesn't talk about other schools, let alone telling us to respect them. Except when he is talking about the weaknesses of the other styles.

So that is how he respects other styles? Does he ever acknowledge that other styles are good at any particular aspect of fighting? Or does he only point out their weaknesses?

[Serpent]

Originally posted by germpest
respect only goes to those who deserve it or earned it. My master doesn't talk about other schools, let alone telling us to respect them. Except when he is talking about the weaknesses of the other styles.

McDojo and Troll alarm bells ringing now! ;)

[Brad]

lol, I agree. I've been reading this thread, but not saying anything until now.


Originally posted by germpest
respect only goes to those who deserve it or earned it. My master doesn't talk about other schools, let alone telling us to respect them. Except when he is talking about the weaknesses of the other styles.

Asuming for a second that you're not a "troll" if that's what your teacher is like, then he is a bad teacher. He's just spewing bs to make him look better than he is. Obviously, he can't "prove" that what he teaches is any good, so he has to play to the students egos by convincing them that what they do is "too deadly" and "superior" :rolleyes:

That's the biggest load of BS I've ever heard, lol. :D It just doesn't make any sense! If you can't use your fighting style full contact without killing anyone, how do you know your art is strong? So you only attack to "vital death points"? Practicing a style whose techniques you can't use without killing someone is a big fat waste of time, making that style inferior. Get attacked, and if you win you still lose. Where's the sense in that?

[Brad]

I did do a pushclaw to my step brother the other day though, and brought him right to the ground. So I have tried little things out. I did a simple wrist leverage to my friends X-gf and she went straight on the ground, it was fun.
First of all, were these voluntary demonstrations or were you just picking on people who're weaker than you?

[dezhen2001]

LOL can u imagine doing a wrist technique to your mates gf if is WASNT compliant! LMAO :D

dawood

[germpest]

most of you are retarded. I just said that he tells of the weaknesses that other arts have, that we don't, never said anything bad about other styles.

oh no! mcdojo? troll alarm bells? I'm tearing at the eye. Really. I'm crying. Like you people know anything.

[joedoe]

So pointing out the weaknesses of other arts is not saying bad things about them? Like I asked before, does he ever point out anything they are good at?

[dezhen2001]

d@mn dude... chill out... a lot of guys here have good knoweledge, and of ocurse you cant completely understand something in words so they can only base their advice on whats given.

its all good:)
dawood

[Serpent]

Originally posted by germpest
most of you are retarded. I just said that he tells of the weaknesses that other arts have, that we don't, never said anything bad about other styles.

oh no! mcdojo? troll alarm bells? I'm tearing at the eye. Really. I'm crying. Like you people know anything.

:D This guy is hilarious!

[dezhen2001]

true joe... but then again saying for example: in wing chun we train to take the shortest distance for fighting, as oppose to karate which is long range... is different to dissing karate :p

dawood

[Serpent]

I just posted this in the shaolin staff thread:



In germpests profile, under the section "How long have you trained" it says "About a year."

Explains a lot huh! ;)



:D

[Serpent]

Actually, it says "a year or so" but the end result is much the same.

;)

[germpest]

tae kwon do for example has high kicks, San Soo doesn't, lower kicks are faster giving less time for the opponent to respond to it.

[germpest]

post it on every thread Serpent, who cares.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by germpest
tae kwon do for example has high kicks, San Soo doesn't, lower kicks are faster giving less time for the opponent to respond to it.

Old chinese saying:
"Train high, kick low."
;)

[Serpent]

Originally posted by germpest
tae kwon do for example has high kicks, San Soo doesn't, lower kicks are faster giving less time for the opponent to respond to it.

That's probably because your instructor can't do high kicks. ;)

Wing Chun doesn't use much in the way of high kicks either, but everything has it's place to a degree. Still, you'll learn this stuff when you're not such a newbie. How old are you germpest?

[germpest]

sure... a philosophy of the art. Insults come and go but you still won't know. hahahaahhahahahahaha. I'm uncle eggy, I'm 37.

laughingcow
nice

[germpest]

serpent if you guess my age in one guess, I'll never post on this forum again. deal?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
true joe... but then again saying for example: in wing chun we train to take the shortest distance for fighting, as oppose to karate which is long range... is different to dissing karate :p

dawood

Sure Dez, but the other less obvious point is that if an instructor is not able to acknowledge the better points of another art, then you would have to question the instructor's understanding of the other art. It would also point to a lack of security in their own skills/art, because they would be too scared to admit that another art may do something better.

For instance, I know that Wing Chun is good at the shorter range. However this does not mean that it is useless at the longer range, because there are probably strategies in Wing Chun for closing the distance. However, I could simply focus on the fact the Wing Chun is strongest in the short range and say it is useless if you keep your distance.

Am I making any sense?

[dezhen2001]

look how the character has changed. sad. :(

dawood

[dezhen2001]

for sure joe... thats what i meant too :) but i was meaning maybe its just wa snot explained properly in the post thats all. guess i as wrong though :(

dawood

[joedoe]

Well, I have asked him twice to clarify, but he refuses so what can I do?

[germpest]

dezhen
who's character

[germpest]

joedoe you want me to clearify what?

[dezhen2001]

sure... a philosophy of the art. Insults come and go but you still won't know. hahahaahhahahahahaha. I'm uncle eggy, I'm 37. whos do u think bro?

dawood

[joedoe]

Originally posted by germpest
joedoe you want me to clearify what?

Does your instructor also point out the strengths of other arts, or does he only points out their weaknesses?

[germpest]

why would he point out the strengths of other styles? They are all incorporated in San Soo.

[joedoe]

OMG :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

[dezhen2001]

oh dear! :eek: if they are incorporated, why doesnt san soo have the fu-hok kuen or hung gar? or the li gar pole? or any of the multitude of choy li fut forms?

dawood

[germpest]

what do those forms do, in detail please.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by germpest
why would he point out the strengths of other styles? They are all incorporated in San Soo.

1) So San Soo incorporates every other martial art ever created?

2) Don't you think it would be advantageous to know what the strengths of other arts are, at least so you will know what to expect?

[germpest]

and people/family/styles have different opinions on what is useful or good. some another style might think is good, san soo might think it is useless, etc. no example though. just opening thoughts

[germpest]

joedoe, no, lots of martial arts suck. I don't know what's incorporated from what. but I'd like to hear what dezhen2001 has to say about those forms.

[joedoe]

So you are saying that it isn't worth thinking about because anything that San Soo doesn't consider useful can't be that good?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by germpest
joedoe, no, lots of martial arts suck. I don't know what's incorporated from what. but I'd like to hear what dezhen2001 has to say about those forms.

Under what criteria do lots of MAs suck?

[dezhen2001]

i thought that your art contained choy li fut and hung gar? why should i need to tell YOU about what the forms contain and teach?

henc emy original question on why you list tsoi (choi), hung,li etc. in your style...

dawood

[germpest]

it does not contain those arts as they are. And I have no clue what any of the forms are. and I also have no clue why tsoi li ho fut hung is san soo. I know what they mean to san soo, but that's it. it doesn't have CLF in it or Hung gar and anything like that. you guys just don't seem to understand that. but I would like to know what goes on in those forms you listed.

[joedoe]

So when your instructor points out the weaknesses of other arts, which arts is he talking about?

[dezhen2001]

go to http://www.hungkuen.net/ and look at the video clips.

dawood

[dezhen2001]

but if jimmy woo is chan siu dek, then his skill comes from his families choy li fut... so why is it not similar?

dawood

[germpest]

is chan the same as chin?

[dezhen2001]

depends on romanization of chinese. im sure there was a link posted before that said that, maybe even you did. Why else would it be choy li fut in the title?

dawood

[germpest]

because it mixed some choy some li, and some fut, with some ho and some hung, and then made froms from the new creation.

[germpest]

http://w3.blackbeltmag.com/multimedia/vid-clips/movs/hunggar02.mov

this movie looks resembles san soo in my opinion. It is some hung in San Soo.

[dezhen2001]

if you read illusionfists posts, then you answered them clearly before, so dont backtrack.
I read an article that basically said Jimmy Woo's real name was Chan Su Dek and that he is actually a descendant of Chan Heung (which makes a CLF connection) and that he learned the family martial arts system. Some of this goes contrary to earlier histories that have been reported by san soo folks, but my question is how is it that the family art (which was CLF as practiced by the Chan family) that became San Soo has not even the faintest resemblance to CLF and how is this difference reconciled?
just now you said:

because it mixed some choy some li, and some fut, with some ho and some hung, and then made froms from the new creation. so how come it doesnt have any of the body mechanics and internal training of these skills? they are very good and high level chinese MA...

ill look at the clip but im on dial up dude so will take baout 15 mins :(

dawood

[germpest]

I only can assume that it doesn't need any internal training. Don't take that the wrong way. Like everyone else would. Some people don't believe that internal training even works. The only internal training I can think of associated with san soo would be dynamic tension(which isn't too internal) and patience, because it is needed to get things right. oh and humility because if you think your good and try something on a master he tosses you around like a freakin rag doll.

[dezhen2001]

not internal as some hippy Qi bs... internal relating to structure, posture and power generation... also the lau gar kuen form doesnt look anything like any of the san soo clips i have seen... look at the bow stance (front stance gong bu), or horse stance (ma bu)... very chinese, compared to other skills. if yu look at northern mantis or any other shaolin based skill you will see its similar.

dawood

[germpest]

structure, posture, and power generating are VERY important in San Soo. They are stressed very much.

[dezhen2001]

of course dude - all MA have it... but what im saying is it doesnt LOOK like these other skills... that doesnt mean its not good - im not disputing that. i dont know anything about it apart from what i can see online as im in the UK... it looks effective so its all good. im just saying its not like these CMA.

dawood

[germpest]

you practice qigong right? do you know anything about the book "Eight simple qigong exercises for health" The eight Pieces of brocade by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming? It was the only book on the subject at the library. I found it and remember hearing about it on this forum.

[dezhen2001]

its not my skill of qigong but i htink its meant to be good.

dawood

[germpest]

what is yours?

[Laughing Cow]

"8 pieces of Brocade" is a good Qi-Gong system.

I think it is one of the oldest one too.

[dezhen2001]

good way of changing the subject! :D

i do 2 skills... kunlun dayan qigong "wild goose" qigong and tian shui si ying qigong (i think) "heavenly river monastery" hard qigong.

dawood

[germpest]

cool laughingcow, this stuffs kind of hard to do though. gathering saliva in my mouth, enough to swish around, and swallow in 3 gulps, and then doing it again 8 more times.

dez-
I'm sick of the original topic

[dezhen2001]

thank goodness i dont do that then! :D mine is much more "natural" as it comes from daoism :)

dawood

[germpest]

ha

[germpest]

I don't want your pathetic respect, your just a waste of my time.

[Waidan]

Man, if someone had told me this thread was going to make it to page 16, I'd have called 'em a liar. Good work, team.

[germpest]

"Jimmy Woo's San Soo is a descendent of Choi Li Fut kung fu, stripped down to its most practical elements. Woo was a strong believer in using what was effective and winning the battle without delay."

this is a little info for everyone who can see it for what it really is.

[dezhen2001]

so how come you couldnt answer my question before and instead changed the subject? :confused: its getting a bit slippery dude.

dawood

[joedoe]

Originally posted by germpest
"Jimmy Woo's San Soo is a descendent of Choi Li Fut kung fu, stripped down to its most practical elements. Woo was a strong believer in using what was effective and winning the battle without delay."

this is a little info for everyone who can see it for what it really is.

It would be interesting to see what the Choy Li Fut people people have to say about this one :)

[dezhen2001]

thats done it. u know how they are in the southern forum :eek:
hope ur having a good day at work buddy :)

dawood

[joedoe]

Just started :). Don't you ever sleep Dez?

Anyway, as I predicted none of my questions were answered.

[dezhen2001]

i do mate, right now for some reason i seem to be on AUS time :eek: Well, id hardly call it work... but im actually working on the Uni IT helpdesk right now :D

yup, it could just be because no one on the forum knows though, but there are important things to be considered such as posture, stance and power generation... thats what makes CLF instead of hung gar, ngo chor or wing chun after all ;)

dawood

[germpest]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
so how come you couldnt answer my question before and instead changed the subject? :confused: its getting a bit slippery dude.

dawood

I just found that on some internet site. I didn't know what I know now.

[dezhen2001]

which site?

dawood

[germpest]

www.borders.com
it was in a book review for a San Soo book. What a coincidence right?

[dezhen2001]

Practical Assessment of Traditional Methods..., December 21, 2002
Reviewer: C.J. Hardman (see more about me) from San Diego, CA USA
Author Greg Jones presents the style of Jimmy Woo (not to be confused with James Wing Woo) in a practical and complete light. A brief history of Jimmy Woo's San Soo Kung Fu is offered, with indepth handling of topics such as striking, leverage, balance, etc. There is a lot of writing in this book, it is not a picture how-to book. You will find a detailed explanation of how to understand why these methods work. Jones offers detailed reasoning behind all of the major theories of San Soo, and professionally shot photos give examples which help explain concepts. Jimmy Woo's San Soo is a descendent of Choi Li Fut kung fu, stripped down to its most practical elements. Woo was a strong believer in using what was effective and winning the battle without delay. Jones does an excellent job of explaining that message to those of us who haven't studied Woo's San Soo Kung Fu but would like to understand the concepts of the art and gain an insight into how a fighter and survivor like Jimmy Woo thought.

yup, that really gives us a lot of info on the book :) But id like to know more about the practitioner who wrote this.

dont worry about it man, its not some global conspiracy on san soo or anything, just some questions about things that some have noticed and like me who have never really seen it or heard of it before.

dawood

[Lowlynobody]

Jimmy Woo's San Soo is a descendent of Choi Li Fut kung fu, stripped down to its most practical elements. Woo was a strong believer in using what was effective and winning the battle without delay."

After reading this whole freaking thread last night (I'm not sure why) I thought to myself - why not post? Why not indeed?

Seeing as its stripped down Choi Li Fut - can someone who knows tell me how old CLF is? I have a feeling its less than 2,000 years...

The next question would have to be why this guy had their treasured manuals if he wasn't a CLF sifu? Stranger and stranger.

Also seeing as your art is ment to be southern does it look anything like a Hakka or southern art? You know - Fau Chum Tung Tou, Hum Hung Bart Boy, bridging skills, short power, iron palm, bone conditioning, etc.


I'm interested to know what your power generation theories are?


Here's to another 16 pages of babbling.

[dezhen2001]

LOL lowlynobody :D


For the first time, there is a decent explanation of Woo's San Soo Kung Fu history, which should put to rest rumors that he was an American Kenpo breakaway (he wasn't). Jimmy Woo, this volume explains, was originally schooled in Chai Li Fut (aka Choy Lay Fut) kung fu, and a chart on page 37 of this volume illustrates his lineage. Gatewood offers all the specifics of Woo's hostory, including his immigration to the US via forged papers (one of the reasons he changed his name--don't confuse him with James Wing Woo!). some more info... does anyone have that book? or know whats in it? :)

dawood

[Serpent]

:D

Check out this post from ExtraJoseph on the Southern Forum after Xie took the topic over there:



It is all in the names: "Germpest" says it all about you and "American Kung Fu San Soo" says all about the system you are studying.

Kung Fu San Soo means a loose collection of hands, it is not even the whole thing and American means it has been westernized, so "American Kung Fu San Soo" means it is an incomplete and westernized system of CMA done by the Americans! Yuk!

Need I say more? Jimmy Woo or whatever his real name is did studied CLF, he was a humble guy and he knew what he was doing when he set up the name for his system so don't insult him with your antics. XLW set you a trap and you fall straight into it.

Walk away, my friend, cut your losses, no one will win in a situation like this.


Ha ha! Say what you mean, XJ! ;)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
LOL lowlynobody :D

some more info... does anyone have that book? or know whats in it? :)

dawood

When I opened the link I got a blurb on the new Harry Potter book. Looking forward to reading that, but it doesn't shed any light on this issue :)

[Lowlynobody]

LOL lowlynobody

You think my wasting my time on this thread is funny? You *******s should all be beaten with big heavy fake chinese books that open the wrong way.

When I opened the link I got a blurb on the new Harry Potter book. Looking forward to reading that, but it doesn't shed any light on this issue

Maybe it does? Maybe the new book is all about CLF that is stripped down so it's not CLF and Hung Ga that isn't Hung Ga. Maybe its all in code. So it looks like just some jibberish about kid magikers and stuff. Maybe so...


.....wait.........am I trolling?


Nah!


The one serious thing that interests me in this thread is how these guys generate power. I think your proof can be found there. If its southern and they have no power and have no concept of how to generate ging then to me that's it.


Lowlynobody.

[joedoe]

I don't know much about the art - my only interest is in the history. I am being amused by his ability to twist, turn, and avoid answering me though :D

[Lowlynobody]

Joedoe - My sifu (Garry of YKM) has mentioned that he has met you I think. If you don't mind me asking - what style do you practice?

Serpent - what ground/grappling based styles have you done? Oh and I think your PM box is full.


Cheers guys.

Lowlynobody

[joedoe]

I practice Ngor Chor Kun - 5 Ancestors Fist. Say Hi to Sifu Garry for me. Tell him we should do yum cha some time ;)

[germpest]

joedoe I will answer if you e-mail me.

[germpest]

Originally posted by Lowlynobody

The next question would have to be why this guy had their treasured manuals if he wasn't a CLF sifu? Stranger and stranger.

The style isn't CLF. We're talking about San Soo. A different art than CLF. Thus the manuals are San Soo. Jimmy was Lau Sifu, but of San Soo.

[germpest]

xie you don't even know what a b!tch is. I will answer question only to those who respectfully ask them.

[5thBrother]

Holy *hit!!!

18 pages of this crap! ?? :rolleyes:


okok im feeling mischievous.. :D
re: the "deadlisest" martial art"

who remmebers the url with the san soo black belt getting his arse kicked in seconds by a shoot boxer or ?? some mma .. bjj maybe ..

if u rememebr the link post it :D

[dezhen2001]

man u must have been REAL bored to read right from the start :D
it keeps going round in circles huh? lol

dawood

[Brad]

John Marsh vs. San Soo man... does McDojo.com have the clip?

[germpest]

Originally posted by 5thBrother

who remmebers the url with the san soo black belt getting his arse kicked in seconds by a shoot boxer or ?? some mma .. bjj maybe ..


what were the conditions of the fight? a tournament? something with rules?

[Suntzu]

what were the conditions of the fight? a tournament? something with rules? :rolleyes:

[joedoe]

Originally posted by germpest


what were the conditions of the fight? a tournament? something with rules?

Actually it looked like a challenge match in someone's gym. The video clip does not say anything about rules, but I am guessing that the rules were pretty limited. Either way, it doesn't matter because it was over pretty quickly.

[germpest]

any rules, would have totally made the fight unfair for the San Soo guy.

[joedoe]

OOOOOOOOOKAAAAAAYYYYY.

So you think that the San Soo guy would have just used some deadly technique and ended the fight? Have you seen the footage?

[Brad]

I'm pretty sure there were no rules, which was part of the point of the San Soo teacher issuing the open challenge in the first place. San Soo guy tried eye gouging, etc. but got beat pretty handily.

[Brad]

any rules, would have totally made the fight unfair for the San Soo guy.
This is the logic that the San Soo man used when issuing the open challenge.

[germpest]

find the video, I haven't seen it

[Waidan]

Yup, no rules whatsoever. The San Soo guy put up $5000 and an open challenge.

The fight was pretty onesided, for sure. However, the guy he was fighting is a professional MMA fighter, and built like a Mack truck. The KFSS guy had some serious huevos, if nothing else.

http://www.bullshido.us/dl_goto.asp?id=23 <--- that should link to the fight. Just right-click the url and do a "save as".

[germpest]

thanks matt

[germpest]

that guy must have been an idiot

[germpest]

oh, and just because he's a black belt in san soo, doesn't mean he's any good. I've seen some weakass blackbelts. I've said before, it's about passion.

[San Soo Sifu]

Waiden & germpest:
You both know that you learned (learn) from Russ? :D

[Waidan]

np.

I judged him rather harshly at first myself, but having recently started training a lot of ground fighting, I've come to appreciate the little he was able to do (and how long he lasted) after John Marsh (MMA Guy) took him to the ground.

[Waidan]

San Soo Sifu,

Yep :) . Small world, ain't it?

[germpest]

san soo sifu
where are you going with that? oh, do you 'do we know that we both did?' than yes

[San Soo Sifu]

Where am I going with that? No where. I just wasn't sure if the two of you knew that, or knew each other, or had introduced yourselves to each other. Not *everyone* on this forum has ulterior motives! Hee hee :D

[germpest]

ha, yeah we found all that out from this very forum, at the beginning he was the first to respond, waidan is also moving down the street from me. very small world

that fight is very sad. The San Soo guy walks like an idiot his hands aren't were they should be. Does the MMA guy break his arm at the end?

[Brad]

yeah, I think so.

[germpest]

that really sucks for him, and he lost $5000 bucks, what a deal...

[joedoe]

I can respect the dude for putting his money where his mouth is.

[Serpent]

Shame he didn't train. Look at his legs! Like loose cotton hanging off the hems of his trouser legs.