ATTN: FC, Braden, psych-types

[ZIM]

Found a somewhat interesting [if a little old] article on the psychological effects of MA training that might be of interest- it is primarily a literature review, but it has some interesting questions... imho!

part 1 (http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/mapsy1.htm)

part 2 (http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/mapsy2.htm)


any comments?

[yenhoi]

ttt


:eek:

[Former castleva]

Well thanks ZIM.Í´m somewhat grateful,this has the tendency to cheer up.

Now that I have taken some look´s,it is good to notice that there is some biological (psych) babbling around which is to my liking.
You know what psychology can get to without such "mechanisms"... :)

Anyhow,thank you.

:cool:

[guohuen]

Good article. I've noticed some of the same findings. In school I was a wrestler and a cross country runner. (hyperaggressive)
On a side note. If that was a literature review, I hope they trashed the work for it's parrot weenie writing style. (none)

[ZIM]

FC- yes, i understand your misgivings... i'm more a student of the social psychology end of things, with a smattering of neuroscience... That gets taxed as being too 'soft headed' but, FWIW, it will only remain so until the research reaches whatever critical mass is needed to become a true-er science. So I keep track of the work.

guohen- WRT writing style: thats what a lit review IS. I'm thinking to keep this and add to it with other things that I can find, like a running log of MA research... add in categories on neuroscience, etc. Maybe i'll wind up with something publishable? ;)

Did anyone note the diffs between MMAs and TMAs in pt 2? What d'you think?

[Former castleva]

That was...original.
Honestly,downright odd from this point of view but original. :)

"FC- yes, i understand your misgivings... i'm more a student of the social psychology end of things, with a smattering of neuroscience... That gets taxed as being too 'soft headed' but, FWIW, it will only remain so until the research reaches whatever critical mass is needed to become a true-er science. So I keep track of the work. "

I understand your concern,but it would seem it is fairly recognized and gaining space while some older,relatively scientifical forms have disappeared.
The area is not an easy one.
:)

[ZIM]

Stumblefist- that was *very* good- I understood your POV thru Reichian terms... one caveat: the Primal movement was somewhat discredited as a treatment modality, even tho it is fascinating... it appears that catharsis esp. for aggression lessens the boundaries that keeps us from expressing aggression in a negative way... food for thought. It reminds me of the adage: you fight how you train... and also, you become the way you train, hmmm?

Anyhow, i was considering, when collecting these data, to go in this direction as well, so it was very thought provoking!

FC- the nature of science- true science- is, imho, revolutionary... The scientific 'pie' is not a set quantity with only so much to go around, but an ever-expanding ocean with some things submerging for a time, then re-surfacing, etc...

there is no problem with science and knowledge base, only our relation to our thoughts regarding it, properly speaking.

[Former castleva]

"FC- the nature of science- true science- is, imho, revolutionary... The scientific 'pie' is not a set quantity with only so much to go around, but an ever-expanding ocean with some things submerging for a time, then re-surfacing, etc...

there is no problem with science and knowledge base, only our relation to our thoughts regarding it, properly speaking."

Yes,I agree.
Science is merely the mechanism that one should be using.

"Stumblefist- that was *very* good- I understood your POV thru Reichian terms... one caveat: the Primal movement was somewhat discredited as a treatment modality, even tho it is fascinating... it appears that catharsis esp. for aggression lessens the boundaries that keeps us from expressing aggression in a negative way... food for thought. It reminds me of the adage: you fight how you train... and also, you become the way you train, hmmm? "

This was not,of course,directed to me but this reminds me of Freudian idea of handling agression-express,but in controlled circumstances.
I believe martial arts could help working this way (as in sport setting)

[dwid]

From a scientific perspective, this is pretty poor for a lit review.

Where is the data? Lit reviews generally present a wide array of findings in a convenient format, as is seen here, but in order to be valuable, they need to give some basic numbers along with the findings.

Here, all we have is the interpretation of whoever wrote this thing up.

I realize that the research literature is pretty lacking in scientific data along these lines - this makes it all the more important that when presenting this kind of information the author provide some numbers.

So, the article is too vague to be of any use to someone approaching it as a scientist, and it's too long to be of much interest to most other people.

BTW, social psychology isn't so "soft" as many might think. It is simply probabilistic rather than absolute. In that way, it's not too different than neuroscience is at this point. Biologically based psychology is really in its infancy, seriously restricted by the limitations remaining in the study of genetics and neurology.

Just my 2 cents.

[Former castleva]

"BTW, social psychology isn't so "soft" as many might think. It is simply probabilistic rather than absolute. In that way, it's not too different than neuroscience is at this point. Biologically based psychology is really in its infancy, seriously restricted by the limitations remaining in the study of genetics and neurology."

Neuroscience is a very broad term while social psych. is one branch of a big tree,neuroscience neither directly relates into study of behavior.
Neurology is mainly the study of the diseases of nervous system,maybe you are referring to something along the lines of neurobiology.
I´m slightly unaware if this is directed towards biopsych. or something larger.
The reason for supposed slower development of such approach has also to do with technical development.
Just a brief breakdown of what what this refers to.

[dwid]

I suppose I was referring to the neurological side of psychology, such as cognitive neuropsych.

I'm not sure I fully understand whether you're trying to indicate that social psychology doesn't relate to the study of behavior. If that is the case, maybe social psych is differently defined here, but it definitely addresses itself to human behavior.

[ZIM]

Hold on there, compadre! :D

I cetainly didn't write it, and i'm not saying it isn't without limitations [as you're saying- also, they're not including mention of the obvious research confounds of certain studies cited] so, you're right: maybe more of an annotated bibliography...?

Still, I've not seen a collection of the relevant [to MAs] studies collected in one place so far done as completely as this one is. For that, its worth a look. Besides, if I want to know where to look & research next, it does help- at least in my case.

;)

I do not know if another, more formal one was presented... this was clearly a work-in-progress that was left up [noting the part 2 headings, here- which weren't even available from pt 1] I'd sure be glad to see it!

"BTW, social psychology isn't so "soft" as many might think. It is simply probabilistic rather than absolute. In that way, it's not too different than neuroscience is at this point. Biologically based psychology is really in its infancy, seriously restricted by the limitations remaining in the study of genetics and neurology."

agreed, seconded, and applauded!
:)

[dwid]

Didn't mean to diss. Please don't take my comments personally. It's just frustrating to see such a large document without the data. Coming from a research background, I'm simply a cut-to-the-chase sort of guy, and I like to see numbers.

[ZIM]

No offense was taken- in science and research you *can't* take any! ;)

You're points were good- and I also have great respect for research and hard data, so it means I have work to do to flesh it out. Enjoyable, really... ;)

I'm thinking to approach it as 'science journalism', rather than as 'scientific paper'... looser rules, better able to incorporate interviews with sifus, popular appeal, a quicker write, its all there!

Do you have any links that you think are appropriate? and not just you, FC- got any?

[dwid]

No links or anything really...

I would recommend playing around with a database like PsycInfo or something along those lines and playing with different keyword searches.

At the very least, you should be able to find some leads that way.

Good luck!

[Former castleva]

"I suppose I was referring to the neurological side of psychology, such as cognitive neuropsych.

I'm not sure I fully understand whether you're trying to indicate that social psychology doesn't relate to the study of behavior. If that is the case, maybe social psych is differently defined here, but it definitely addresses itself to human behavior."

Great,thanks to you for correcting too. :)
It is easy enough to get stuck with the terms,now when it comes to awesome neuropsych. we will still have to take into account both neuropsychology itself in psych. sense and "medical" art of clinical neuropsychology.
I was mainly "thinking loudly" in order to get a detailed picture of this. :)
In no way did I try to indicate that social psych. does not relate to this or that,it would be ridiculous in my opinion. :)

I have to confess that the paper was,if interesting,a bit messy enough to not keep me reading it in detail,well anyways what kind of links are you,Zim- looking for?
I´m not sure if I do have what you are after.

[Former castleva]

I´m rather tired by now so forgive me but I´m currently reading this article (along the lines of psych/ology/iatry,neuro/science/logy) )

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11971130&dopt=Abstract

Yap about those sites later then,we´ll see. :)

[ZIM]

Practical experience is often better than theoretical, IMHO- just a matter of getting the two to work together...it's just the problem of getting acceptance for contributions, really...


Taking a look at the article now. I think psychology with the Behavioural approach, or on the micro level (24 stages of baby learning to walk) or of trying to definitively prove it's case (like Phenomenology's Bugabear) are mostly useless. But it looks like there might be some redeeming features in the article.

Phenomenology is a rough thing, cornered as it is by philosophers and lit crit types.. the behavioral aproach might be fruitful.. ?

Re: Primal therapy- I meant the screaming and hitting versions of it... releasing aggression and stuff... it seems to increase aggression ! Theory says: it lowers the boundaries to anger.. can't test it though, becos you don't want to do that. :eek:

You're experiences sound very much like Logotherapy, the one by Frankl.. with Biological psych in for good measure... HMM!

And NO I did NOT write this paper LOL.

[Former castleva]

No requests? Kay. :)

I do not know much about primal therapy etc. but what I have read it seems to,indeed,be less appreciated (among with other minority therapies) due to pseudoscientifical nature (I guess the same could,in todays terms,go for psychoanalysis too in a way. :rolleyes: )
Just a brief analysis,no personal emotions attached.

Interesting story,Stumble.

[ZIM]

OOPS! Sorry FC, I didn't mean to ignore you!

No, no specific requests of info, just wanted to see if you had any links to look at re: MA research.

I did go to the link you provided...I think that I'd have to do alot of mining in it. :(

Have you looked in the eBMJ files? [electronic British Medical Journal] they've got some interesting stuff there as well. :)

edit: took that bit out, to another thread- sorry! ;)

[Former castleva]

OOPS! Sorry FC, I didn't mean to ignore you! ""
This is rather like "allright".

Yes...I think BMJ has good stuff,thanks for reminding btw..
If you are interested in good,down to earth neuroscience (with certain psych. relations) you might want to try these:
http://web.sfn.org/ (Check articles etc.)

www.brainconnection.com

http://www.brainland.com/

These are not the only ones for sure but are they good.