Competitions good for TJQ or not??

[Laughing Cow]

Hi All.

Read an article that posed an interesting question and I would like to see how you guys feel about it.

Are Forms & Tui Shou competitions good for TJQ and it's development or do the go counter to good TJQ teachings and principles.

Cheers.

[Laughing Cow]

IMO, they are not helpful.

Most practicioners will be entering a competition with the mindset of winning and thus won't be 100% relaxed(song), etc.

In Tui Shou there should not be a mind of winning or loosing, but of learning.
If you develop a mindset of winning, IMO, some of the participants will start to rely on "muscle power" to win.

Just my opinion naturally.

[wujimon]

I don't think the competition forms are bad if they are practiced with the correct principles and biomechanics. It just that in my experience, most of the teachers who I've met that teach the competition forms are "forms collectors" and don't really teach according to the principles, but there are always exceptions to the rules ;) In fact, I used to practice the competition style forms until I started training in a more traditional school and focused more in issues of structural integrity and principles as well as martial applications. I still practice the 24 form if I'm short on time ;)

[Laughing Cow]

wujimon.

Thanks, great post.

In our kwoon some of our students recently entered a forms competition using the traditional form, competition forms are not taught where I train.
The Event was a pure TJQ event though.

I don't see the problem so much with what form is used perse, but rather with the teaching of the forms and the desired goal of the student.

Kinda like the point-sparring phase in karate for some time, when achievement and skill got measured in certs and trophies.

[Prairie]

I'm undecided on the value of competitions for anything but fun.

I've not ever been to a striclt taiji competition, but the karate/kungfu tournaments I've participated in or watched didn't seem to be valuable for me -- except for the fun of meeting people.

Tuishou and fighting competitions could be valuable training tools as it adds pressure to the situation. I haven't seen competition of that sort yet though.

Forms competitions I don't think are useful at all -- except for the fun of getting up and showing your stuff.

[Brad]

It just that in my experience, most of the teachers who I've met that teach the competition forms are "forms collectors" and don't really teach according to the principles, but there are always exceptions to the rules
Could be because the competition forms are easier to get on video, so lots of teachers might learn them that way. I really don't see much of a connection between how much you compete, and in skill. It's helps for some people though, like myself. One way Taiji competition has helped me is that when I'm practicing for competition I tend to work harder because I don't want to go out there looking like crap, embarising my school and teacher. It's a type of motivation. Also, competitions can be like a big convention where people from all over the country can hang out and exchange ideas.

[wujimon]

I agree with Brad and his notion of easily capturing the forms on video. I also agree that competitions can be a very good meeting grounds and sharing of knowledge. Good place for exposure to other training methods and styles.

[Vapour]

As for the forms competition, it's all depends on ref. If they judge competitors on the basis of taijichuan principles, it's good. If they judge according to something else such as aethetics, it's bad.

For pushing hands competition, I think the effect is more positive because this is one way to eliminate mouth gong fu taijichuan practioners.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Vapour
As for the forms competition, it's all depends on ref. If they judge competitors on the basis of taijichuan principles, it's good. If they judge according to something else such as aethetics, it's bad.


IMHO, not enough qualified people out there to do that.



For pushing hands competition, I think the effect is more positive because this is one way to eliminate mouth gong fu taijichuan practioners.

My problem here is the following:

Tui Shou is about "not-competing" and a tournament by definition is about "competing".

Thus Tui Shou competitons, IMO, violate the this basic and most important Tui Shou principle.

OTOH, I think some San Shou competitions might be more interesting & beneficial.

Just some random thoughts.

[Vapour]

It's might degerate into an argument over semantic but tui shou is a training method in which you learn to "win" the fight by yielding to the opponent force.

After all, taichichuan is a martial arts. If being forceful is a better way to win, do so by all means. I'm doing taichichuan because my instructors and senior students can demonstrate to me that yielding rather than resisting is superior fighting tactics. When I say demonstrate, i don't mean demonstrate by pattern. They let us have a go (punch, kick, lock throw or whatever) at them. Few of us are black belt in other martial arts. Only then, they tell us "don't resist, don't insist" and we believe them.

If someone lose tuishou competition and think that "well I lost only because opponent was too forceful and not doing taichi" or "it's o.k. because competition is against taichi principle", it's a sloppy slople into mouth gong fu. You lost it simply because your taichichuan wasn't good enough. You either haven't got the principle of taijichuan or your taichichuan principle disappear under the pressure of competition which amount to the same thing.

In my view, "open" tui shou competition where any style of martial arts are invited to perticipate is a very good way to stop taichichuan from degenerating into meaningless dance. It's also a great way to eliminate supposedly invincible fake masters who can't walk the talk.

Btw, do you do cheng man ching style? That's my style as well. :)

[Repulsive Monkey]

Practicing Competition forms are worth gash-all compared to traditional forms. Comp. forms are for show and are so aneamic in what a standard form contains its like a 16 stone person suddenly going onto a single slim-fast drink a day energetically as an entire days nutrition.
Do not expect one's Tai Chi to advance if all you do is comp. forms because they won't. There was a reason for traditional forms were created and realised and that was for qi development and function of the art, just as there was a reason for why comp. forms were created and that was to look pretty and suqeeze the bare bone basics into 2-3 minutes. Where's the gung-fu in that!!! Comp. forms were never invented as a truncated daily practice but just for shows period.

[wujimon]

I just wanted to add, after reading R.Monkey's post, that since I've been training in the traditional form, I think my overall taiji has improved. I think the traditional sets have a lot of subtlety, but then again, I believe that something is better than nothing.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Wujimon, somethings can be better than nothing but the only concern with a Comp form I fear is that it won't be enough for further development and to appreciate and make the martial art side and the health side work in Taiji it requires deeper gung-fu than a comp form. As a precursor to then studying trad. forms by all means it gives a possible introduction yes, but it its elf anf of itself without ant further progerrion onto something a little more substantial, I wouldn't touch them. However this is just an opion, not gospel.

[bob10]

Isn't it how the form is taught as much as what form it is? A couple of postures taught in-depth can bring more than a whole form taught superficially. I know one guy who can make his 24 step work a lot better than some trad form people I've seen.

[GLW]

Doing both traditional and competition routines, I am usually amazed at the misconceptions about the competiton routines that many have...

First, you CAN get quite far in your understanding of the principles and body movement with them. In fact, in some ways they can help you get there quicker if you know what to look for.

For example, the Concept "Shou yen Shenfa Bu" - all the parts working as a unit...within the competition sets, you can see how to connect things better and get the waist and upper to lower body connected - many don't seem to cath this as well by simply doing the traditional sets.

You also can build up legs, flexibility, flavor, spirit, and such with them.

The newer method of moving in Front stance with the rock back is great for beginners. Once a beginner has learned this, it is very easy to get the concept of how to do it in - say Yang style - without the rock back since they are now aware of the danger points in the knee and how to connect the waist to the foot and avoid torquing a knee.

The mental aspect of Taijiquan does NOT depend upon the routine. It is an approach. The routine is secondary here. You can do a piece of any form and get this if you approach it right.

As for competitions - the events themselves...

95% of the benefit of them is achieved before the competitor steps on the floor to perform. This is the preparation for the event...the hard work that went into it. This is the benefit.

The other 5% is the ability to stay focused while under stress...the nerves of performing and not letting them sway you. Other than that and the friendships you make, all of the other trappings like medals and trophies are of little value.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Vapour
Btw, do you do cheng man ching style? That's my style as well. :)

Chen TJQ.
;)

Surprised you said that you do CMC, some things you mention on the Board here appear to go against CMC's teachings.

BTW, TJQ has attacks as well as defenses most of the times they are the same move applied differently.

Simply check the applications for your "Cloud Hands" you should get quiet a few for both uses.

"Warriors Attendant pounds the Mortar " is definately an attack move to multiple points.

Cheers.

P.S.: Invest in loss.

[Vapour]

Darn, since you quote Zeng Man Qin and Wolfe Lowenthal, I kind figured you do CMC style.

My instructor has Malaysian lineage which originated in Taiwan. Eastern lineage of CMC has quite different syallabus from American counter part and perspective of the art is decidedly martial as well.

In regard to form containing attack and defence simultaneously, I do judo and surprisingly, I find application of CMC form in many of judo throw. Brash Knee twist step is Seoi-nage, Snake creep down is taiotoshi and so on. Plus, most taijichuan principle can be applied in judo counter throw.

My attitude is that I should invest in loss so I can get back to him in big way. :)

Anyone here practice CMC style btw?

[Laughing Cow]

Yapour.

Thanks, for your reply.

I read a LOT about TJQ and it's different styles and tend to keep the things that fit in with my specific TJQ style. My bookmark file for TJQ sites I think is about 300~350 links long.

So far I have had some exposure to Yang(108, Guang ping & CMC), Sun, Wu Hao, Chen large and small frame practicioners. As well as some Xing Yi & Baguazhang.

Not to mention the other styles I actually studied.
;)

Cheers.

P.S.: If he doesn't want to attract draw him out into making an attack.