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Tsuruken
05-18-2001, 04:22 AM
Who out there has read any of the several translations of the "Bubishi" and what are your thoughts on the claim it is connected to or representative of the Monk and Crane-Fist traditions of China?

What are your views on this text, its contents and significance to Chinese and Okinawan martial arts?

What of the illustrations of the 48 Defensive Applications? Are they truly representative of the older Chinese arts?

Lets hear your views!

Regards

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

FUJIYakumo
05-18-2001, 05:40 PM
hi ron, i have read, probably the mostly widely available version, i think it was the 2nd revision version? of patrick mc's book;

i found it... quite useless i think. it was interesting to read 1 or 2 bits but on the whole i was quite disappointed. to be honest, i didnt know what to expect before reading it.

it seemed more anecdotal than anything.

the included parts untranslated on the herbal medicines and so-forth, seemed worthless and more like filler. it would have been best to have a 'there is a large section that we cannot translate, relating to herbal medicine that we did not include', than include archaic untranslated chinese...

the drawings in the back lacked any detail whatsoever. how do they relate to karate? what purpose are these included in the book for with no explanation beyond the poetic name of the technique.

there seemed to be nothing concrete in the book.
i guess a karate practitioner would get more of it? (i would assume. erm. i'm grasping at straws!! drowing help help;) )

as to its chinese connections, etc to monk fist, etc. i can beleive it came from china. as to what art specifically, i dunno, to me, it doesnt seem very or majority owned white crane or monk fist. there might be some of each, but they seem to be minority pieces, so what makes the majority? maybe its propagators only passed on a small portion of it? maybe some was lost? maybe we are trying to crame a circle into a box forcing it to fit our own ideas?

my exposure to both the chinese crane arts and okinawan arts is limited so who am i to say eh.

the question i had before reading bubishi, was why does it look and seem so vastly different from what is was meant to be derived from?

several southern chinese arts have a version of sam chien, why was monk fist picked above say dog boxing or gno cho kuen or that?

i'm rambling and loosing the plot ;) bye!
-stewy

-Stu, Lifestyle Wing Chun, Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.lifestylewingchun.com

Tsuruken
05-19-2001, 05:55 AM
Hi Stu,

Thanks for your input.

I have on hand 6 different copies of the Bubishi (translations) including one by Ohtsuka Tadahiko of Gojukensha and an overview of the "Ji Xiao Xin Shu" which was originally published by Ji Jiguan in 1561.

Each of these are different from the other. We must keep in mind the level of knowledge of the interpreter, their stylistic & educational background, culture and resulting socio-economic forces upon which they depend.

The "Ji Xiao Xin Shu" depicts 32 combative illustrations, many of which closely resemble the 12 Postures/Guards of the Okinawan Kojo-Ryu Family system which in turn is based upon the animals of the Chinese Zodiac.

The other version of the Bubishi see these illustrations expanded to 48 defensive positions some of which again closely correspind to techniques found within Kojo-Ryu and various schools of Crane-Fist.

The sad thing about these illustrations and the way I see them as having been interpreted is that they do not have all that much to reveal. That is unless one knows what one is looking at. The postures relate to Articles 6 & 7 which talk about the various quan or forms. They should (I feel) be studied in the following manner:

A). Individual techniques.
B). Their individual relationship to current kata or forms.
C). Their relationship to older Kata or forms.
D). How they have changed or been modified.
E). The energy manifestation of each technique i.e. the alignments, ground reaction force, active and passive meridian flow (Kyo & Jitsu), emission of energy (Fa-Jing) etc.

As for the rest of the book, it deals with the philosophical aspects lost to a generation overshadowed by greed, politics, styles and commercial considerations.

I can understand you disappointment with the translations especially when the Bubishi itself was supposed to be the "Bible of Karate". Perhaps it is not complete in its translation. Perhaps more is to be discovered?

Moving on. I note that you are in Melbourne. I have an associate school in Melbourne. Perhaps we could meet and exchange ideas in the future. if you like, I will send you information about our Crane-Gist Gathering in October 2001?

Regards,

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

FUJIYakumo
05-19-2001, 01:23 PM
yeah i would have liked to see more on the drawings and how they related to various quan and actual technique rather than just its poetic name.

another question i have, how can some have 32 illustrations, some 48? if the original bubishi had X why dont the transliterations have X? i wonder why the difference. since you have seen both, are some depictions the same?

you wrote about the various versions/transliterations of the book, which would you suggest as a good read? (based on availability).

i also read Okinawan Karate : Teachers, Styles and Secret Techniques by mark bishop. hmm. now theres a coaster if i ever bought one.

as for melbourne, i'm living in london now for the time being...

-Stu, Lifestyle Wing Chun, Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.lifestylewingchun.com

HuangKaiVun
08-23-2001, 08:50 PM
I practice an OLD traditional kung fu style from Northern China called "Seng Men" ("Monk Fist").

Our postures look almost EXACTLY like those in the Bubishi, though we have more closed movements and turn our toes inwards.

The "Seng Men" system is a hardhitting system that's low to the ground but is very mobile due to its mobile horse stances and shuffling footwork.

At some point, I will present this style in either magazine or book or video format. When I do, compare what we do against what is featured in the Bubishi.

seito no sensei
03-04-2003, 08:45 AM
Hi!

Does anybody know something more about the 'bubishi' and its content? It has influenced the Okinawan martial arts very much, or?
Perhaps there exist a link where I can find text fragments or a description ?!
Thanks all!

J.G.

Crimson Phoenix
03-04-2003, 08:50 AM
try that one:

www.bubishi.ch

there's also a good book by P. McCarthy about it.
Sorry, I don't have much time to answer more precisely here ;)

Radhnoti
03-04-2003, 09:46 AM
I own the McCarthy book. Some would consider the Bubishi the "secret" to karate, as it goes into detail about pressure/critical points, meridians and how to use them. McCarthy's book speculates about the origin of the Bubishi and also speculates about the info arrived in Okinawa. What's known is that it is Chinese in origin, "Monkfist" and "White Crane" gongfu are mentioned repeatedly.
Karate Masters who are known to have referenced/plagarized from the Bubishi include:
Funakoshi Gichin
Higashionna Kanryo
Miyagi Chojun
Shimabukuro Tatsuo
Yamaguchi "the Cat" Gogen
Mabuni Kenwa
Intosu Anko

The Bubishi was a treasured "secret" passed from master to disciple in Okinawa for some time.
Hope some of that disjointed thinking helped somehow. :)

GeneChing
08-08-2016, 05:51 PM
Enter to win KungFuMagazine.com's contest for Bubishi: The Classic Manual of Combat By Patrick McCarthy (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/sweepstakes-bubishi.php)! Contest ends 5:30 p.m. PST on 8/8/2016

mickey
08-19-2016, 08:15 PM
Greetings,

I own the earlier edition. There was only one thing that I wished to have been attempted and that was finding out what the moves to the chuan pu for the Monk Fist (Lohan Chuan) that were only listed in the book. The way things are going, with the traditional stuff dying out, it is either now or never.

mickey

GeneChing
08-22-2016, 03:03 PM
See WINNERS: Bubishi: The Classic Manual of Combat By Patrick McCarthy (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69681-WINNERS-Bubishi-The-Classic-Manual-of-Combat-By-Patrick-McCarthy)