Best Venue for CMA?

[Water Dragon]

Please Discuss

[carly]

What difference is there between San Da and San Shou?

[Water Dragon]

Unless the rules have changed again, San Shou uses boxing gloves and headgear, San Da uses open gloves and a face cage. Personally, I favor open hand gloves and boxing head gear.

[Golden Arms]

If by San Da you mean like san shou only with elbows and knees, fingerless MMA style gloves, and maybe fought on a lei tai, that is CMA's best venue IMHO. I think for there things to be fair, and not lean towards grapplers in MMA, it would have to be without gloves. Then things would be more even. But as it is now, Lei tai san da is it.

[norther practitioner]

Well, depends of course. CMA haven't been hugely sucessful in any MMA, so I say San Da, but there you have a large population of CMAist competing. So what I am saying is the wording is a little too open.

Do you want to know
1) What is the best venue for CMA?
2) What has been the best venue?
3) What will be the best venue?

1) Currently, I'd say San Shou
2) Depends on who you talk to, Ralek I'm sure would say MMA
3) Who knows.... I'd like to see some more cma in MMA tournies int the future, the only prob. is the present lack of ground fighting at a lot of schools.

[Fred Sanford]

don't care

[ShaolinTiger00]

Unless the rules have changed again, San Shou uses boxing gloves and headgear, San Da uses open gloves and a face cage. Personally, I favor open hand gloves and boxing head gear.

You people are amazing.

If you don't truthfully know something...

Please Shut Up.

This misinformation that you spread hurts the truth. WD you're not even close. Face cage? WTF? Never!


San Shou.

amateur (gloves, headgear, shinpads, almost always chest gear - by law)

Kick. punch, throw. (knees only allowed in "A" class matches)

San Da

Professional. (gloves)

Kick. Punch, throw, Knee & elbow (elbow-almost never allowed in U.S. under any circumstances even pro muay thai.)

[Water Dragon]

WTF are you talking about? You've never seen a face cage?

[ShaolinTiger00]

I've seen one on point sparring sissy boys.

I have NEVER seen on on a Leitai. Because they aren't allowed!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Golden Arms
If by San Da you mean like san shou only with elbows and knees, fingerless MMA style gloves, and maybe fought on a lei tai, that is CMA's best venue IMHO. I think for there things to be fair, and not lean towards grapplers in MMA, it would have to be without gloves. Then things would be more even. But as it is now, Lei tai san da is it.

gloves or not, they're open fingered - you can palm and do everything else...

[Water Dragon]

Man, you ****ing incredible. I don't know if you're either twisting words around to try and troll people or too stupid to know that Kuo Shou and San Da are pretty much synonymous terms which refer to the same rule set. If Pro San Shou is being called San Da now, that's cool. But if you have half the experience you claim, don't try to play stupid.

Anyway, whatever game you're playing, it's old. Have fun with the fish, I wont be seeing your posts from now on.

[Archangel]

Early style UFC or NHB tournaments in Brazil (IVC, Lutos) or Russia where there were only 2 rules, should THEORETICALLY be the best place for CMA.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by Archangel
Early style UFC or NHB tournaments in Brazil (IVC, Lutos) or Russia where there were only 2 rules, should THEORETICALLY be the best place for CMA.

Maybe. But I'm thinking more in regards to what WE as amateurs would be willing/excited about competing in. I like the San Da/Kuo Shou (except for the face cages). It's real enough to let me use what I've been taught, but safe enough so I'm not injured all the time.

[DragonzRage]

Theoretically, I think that the best venue for kung fu would be a form of MMA in a ring or lei tai instead of a cage, and it would only allow short time on the ground before they stand the fighters back up.

Practically speaking, the best venue for CMA fighters to come up in right now is San da since its a Chinese sport that is well connected to the Chinese MA community, and it is becoming more widespread and popular. Its also a strong base point for Chinese/Chinese style fighters to go into other forums of competition such as Muay Thai, K-1, and MMA.

[Golden Arms]

Open handed gloves are not the same as Bare Knuckle Seven *. I see what you are getting at, and yeah its true..but the dynamics of fighting drastically change when there are no gloves. Look at old school bareknuckle boxing, vs. the boxing we have today. Both are cool, but both are very much different animals as well. The way things are now in MMA venues, there is NO inhibition to the groundfighters game, yet the fighters wear gloves, which takes much of the brunt of the impact and changes the tactics for a smart fighter. Also a well conditioned hand feels about as different from the average persons fist as mats do compared to a hardwood floor. Just my .02

[Brad]

San Shou I believe is the "official" term for mainland China's modern wushu sparring format. San Da's a term I've heard used to basically describe fighting/sparring by both the mainland Wushu and Taiwanese Kuoshu groups and aplies to both rule sets. Maybe Taiwan addopted "San Da" as their official term, I don't really know :-P

I haven't tried either yet so no comment ;-)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Golden Arms
Open handed gloves are not the same as Bare Knuckle Seven *. I see what you are getting at, and yeah its true..but the dynamics of fighting drastically change when there are no gloves. Look at old school bareknuckle boxing, vs. the boxing we have today. Both are cool, but both are very much different animals as well. The way things are now in MMA venues, there is NO inhibition to the groundfighters game, yet the fighters wear gloves, which takes much of the brunt of the impact and changes the tactics for a smart fighter. Also a well conditioned hand feels about as different from the average persons fist as mats do compared to a hardwood floor. Just my .02

no breaking, no heel hooks, if it's amateur, in some venues there's no GnP - grappler's have their limits too - they work around them. The change isn't THAT drastic between small open gloves and bare fist. There's a bigger difference between bigger gloves and bare hand. many venues don't allow elbows - that limits thai fighters. When you are fighting with rules, there will be limitations. That's not such a big deal that it has serious impact on performance, however, unless there are VERY strict limitations. Conditioned fists aren't limited by gloves either - not mma gloves. If you've got irom palm, you've got it. same with the fist. If your fists are conditioned and you know how to hit - the impact is there.

[brassmonkey]

the problem I see with gloves is you can't transfer chi through gloves

[SevenStar]

that shouldn't be detrimental to your fighting though - if you can fir, you can fight, reagardless of chi transfer.

I am curious though - why can't it transfer throught gloves? if it can't transfer through gloves, can it transfer through, say, a thick coat that an attacker is wearing? If it can, what's the difference between that and the gloves?

[ShaolinTiger00]

that Kuo Shou and San Da are pretty much synonymous terms which refer to the same rule set.

This is false. You are mistaken Water Dragon. perhaps in days gone by they might have used th terms interchanged (wushu), but today not even a village idiot would confuse the two.

[lkfmdc]

I alkways love guys who would be "machines of death and destruction" but only if they have the right rules and equipment. If you have skills and valid technique, it should work, PERIOD. Survival is about adaptation. Rules and equipment can modify technique and strategy but if you are so limited you can't fight unless you have things your way, sorry, you are not much of a fighter.

We do boxing, San Shou, San Da, submission grappling, kickboxing, Thai boxing, and MMA. All have different rules and equipment, we WIN in all of them, we simply adapt

I guess I am glad that Chi can't flow through gloves, considering how many people we KO with the gloves, we'd kill them if our Chi was flowing too...

[ShaolinTiger00]

David,

Please tell us your opinion of the vastly superior arena known as Koushu.
I'm sure we're like minded but I know you'll word it in such a way that will keep me laughing for the rest of the day! (street shoes and broken fingers)

Congrats @ the Arnolds. Got the update.

[lkfmdc]

Kuo Shu Lei Tai fighting is dead, get over it. It was an experiment which failed miserably

Taiwan, the official leader of the Kuoshu movement, suspended world championships like 3 years ago, they are now sending teams to do San Shou in the mainland.

No, repeat NONE, as in NO ONE from Kuoshu has made a mark in San Shou, but San Shou athletes have competed in Kuoshu and won their championships.

This is the "sport" overseen by the brilliant minds whose idea of safety is a huge metal cage on the face and rubber gardening gloves on the hands. And of course you have to pay them an additional $75 so you can wear that full silk PJ outfit while you fight...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by DragonzRage
Theoretically, I think that the best venue for kung fu would be a form of MMA in a ring or lei tai instead of a cage, and it would only allow short time on the ground before they stand the fighters back up.


my one qualm with that is limiting the grappling - why would you do that? Everybody says cma has groundwork - let them use it. I actually have the same qualm about judo. Judo has a lot of ground fighting, but in a tournament, most judges will stand you back up after about 15 seconds unless you have a pin, or unless good progress towards a submission is being made.

[red5angel]

What does it matter what venue? Why should it matter? shouldnt a good well rounded art be able to compete in any o fthese?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Who cares? Fight.

[Suntzu]

my one qualm with that is limiting the grappling - why would you do that? the sad reality is that sport fighting is geared more towards the fans rather than the fighters… match makers match up 2 fighter based on 'what would make the best fight'… the rule makers along side of fighter safety… create rules so the fight will be more exciting... witness rule cahnges in the NFL... limited grappling or a quick stand up makes for a much more fun fight... groundwork is still boring to alot of people that dont have a clue... and still boring at times to people that do know... once groundwork becomes more "in"… I suspect Judo will allow for more groundwork…

shouldnt a good well rounded art be able to compete in any o fthese? the art… yes… but the fighter still has to train for those rules and style of fighting those rules produce… I doubt any fighter would jump from pride to K-1 or san shou without preparing themselves for the format… some fighters just might not like the format and not wanna deal with it... i would do NHB before i would do American rules... u know... with the proper time to prepare...

Who cares? Fight. exactly… but nothing is worse than losing because of the rules… or lack of knowledge of the rules…

[yenhoi]

Bunch of silly-talk.

The best 'venue' for serious martial artists is one where they compete with other serious martial artists with the least amout of restrictions and protective gear.

There should also be limited number of spectators, free beer, and naked chicks. ;)

:eek:

[ShaolinTiger00]

I suspect Judo will allow for more groundwork…

Its already happening. IJF refs are taking seminars in "newaza progression" and are becomming more aware that sometimes progress takes more than 5 seconds.

groundwork was limited in judo comp to make the tournaments more pleasing to spectators and to expedite matches making tournaments run more smoothly. but judo guys still don't practice this way. newaza training is just like bjj. stop when someone taps. In fact in judo tourneys if a guy "turtles" on me, and I don;t see an immediate opening. I just stand up and walk ovr to the ready mark. save energy..

[Brad]

The best 'venue' for serious martial artists is one where they compete with other serious martial artists with the least amout of restrictions and protective gear.

There should also be limited number of spectators, free beer, and naked chicks.
The WWE has all of those! You can even use chairs!!!
:D

[shaolin kungfu]

But wwe doesn't have the "resisting opponent" part of the fight.

[Taomonkey]

the best venue is an open field, not any of these sports. There is a great difference between sport and combat. Some sports do create combat effectiveness, but good combat effectiveness does not always translate to good sport.

[Serpent]

Given the list, definitely San Da. But that's assuming that you are into fighting in a sport environment. Not everybody is into competition. For many people the best environment for CMA is real life and hopefully you need never use your skills.

Obviously, you have to fight to learn how to fight, but that should be part of your training, with regular sparring, etc. Sport fighting of any kind is puttin yourself under the pressures of rules and politics, with dodgy judging and everything that goes along with that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Taomonkey
the best venue is an open field, not any of these sports. There is a great difference between sport and combat. Some sports do create combat effectiveness, but good combat effectiveness does not always translate to good sport.

and how often does the combat effectiveness get to be tested? Only when you use it - and that may be too late. by modifiying and competing in the ring, you are eliminating that part. At least you know how you will react in a one on one situation. and at least you know how you may fare against a resisting opponent. I agree, the sport will not always translate to combat effectiveness, but nor will traditional training. At least the sport gives some venue to test yourself.

[Taomonkey]

7*

I do understand the importance of sparring in training, but you have to admit, you would take very different actions in each situation. Sparring is sport like boxing, in any sparring situation my goal is not to destroy, incapicatate, kill...whatever, my partner. My goal is to test myself, my defenses, my offenses, to see openings and take advantage, to find my weakness and correct it. Much of Traditional MA doesnt translate to the ring, it could but there would be paperwork. It (sparring) is a valuable tool, and one I use weekly, but it is not the focus of my training. The question was what is the best venue for CMA, and I my answer is still anywhere but a sport competition. There is a reason that sseveral have stated things like that san shou guy uses boxing footwork, or a kickboxing technique or footwork. It was designed for the ring, so if you are in a ring you better know something about it. As for TMA, you train it enough it will be there. In my case it has.

[SevenStar]

I do agree that there are different actions for those different situations, but once a principle is understood, you should be able to apply it in any situation. a shuai chiao shoulder throw, for instance, can drive the person forcefully into the ground, or it can land them lightly and more safely - it's all in how you do the throw. Drilling is an awesome tool, but is lacking, which is why it's good to combine drilling with sparring. Regardless of the difference in actions between the street and the ring, the principle behind the techniques are the same

[Water Dragon]

Shoulder throw can also break the arm by adjusting the grip or pile drive someone's head into the ground if you understand your stances.

Just don't do that stuff in sparring and you'll be fine.

[Fred Sanford]

the problem I see with gloves is you can't transfer chi through gloves

LOL

[Taomonkey]

Elizabeth,,,I'm commin to join ya honey!


So Fred,,How's Lamont

[Fred Sanford]

shut up you big dummy!!!

[brassmonkey]

I was kidding about the chi thing. It would be too easy to troll this place. I've suggest on threads to Dana White a couple times to hold nhb in a colliseum with flat dirt ground to give a greater significance to throws but never got a reply. I've seen video of mongolian wrestling tournament that's outside on dirt ground so I don't know if I buy its too dangerous then again I hear Mongolia is the wild west.