OT: Something to ponder.

[Laughing Cow]

Hi.

I know this article is JMA related, but I like what they Guy has to say.

Article (http://www.member-account.com/belttest.htm)

I think the basic principles will also apply to CMA Kwoons.

Cheers.

[joedoe]

Interesting article. My fiance's sister joined a Shotokan dojo about 18 months ago and within 6 months had climbed a few belts and was invited into the black belt club. This meant that she was fast-tracked to get a black belt, but also meant that they used her as an assistant instructor - without pay. I forwarded the URL to her to see what she thinks ;).

[Serpent]

Any concept of "fast-tracking" in the martial arts is so far against the principles of the arts that it makes a joke out of the whole thing.

[joedoe]

Yeah, but her school was the best because the Chief Instructor was the NSW Junior Karate coach, and Shotokan is the best style, and ...

[Serpent]

Originally posted by joedoe
Yeah, but her school was the best because the Chief Instructor was the NSW Junior Karate coach, and Shotokan is the best style, and ...

*YAWN*

[logic]

Your post is not Off Topic.

This is a very good point to bring to attention.
I've seen it several times during my years in the M.A.

I won't say what style it was at the time but I had to pay extra for

every belt ranking (and there were a lot, like, light blue, dark blue,gold,tan,)$40
wooden dummy class $45
weapons class$45
sash $15
seminars $300
special training class $100
ETC.

I guess this is where the term McDojo came from.
If theres money to be made anything will be Exploited!

Martial Arts Sells
It's big bussiness.
It's Exploited.
Just keep you eye out for these phoneys and shop around.
good luck.

[logic]

P.S.
There are a lot of good Honest schools out there.
You just have to find them.:)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Serpent


*YAWN*

It's actually kinda amusing because she had a bit of a falling out with the management (they treat you good when you are new, but then kinda forget about you when you have been there a while) and she is looking around at other schools. She came along to one of my classes to see what we do, but I don't think she will join up - Karate is a lot crisper ;)

[Serpent]

LOL. "Crisper"!

:)

[joedoe]

To be honest I don't think she really knew what she was looking at :)

[Serpent]

"When the student is ready..."

and so on and so forth.

[Budokan]

It's sad this sort of thing happens, but no one who has been in MA for a while is suprised. I'm certainly not. It's a problem throughout all styles, but it's sickening when you hear about it nonetheless.

[Tiger_Yin]

I dont see what people have againts others that can rise in ranks faster then others. Like.. in chinese styles we dont HAVE belts americans just put them there for 1 money 2 to get fat ego's

So basicaly... either your good..or your not... no need for this black belt 4th dan stuff

Im Shodan in Kendo.. took me a year not even and this years in going for ni dan. Doesnt mean that i BUY belts hell the JKF usualy dont let peopel try out for it until its been two years training or so. Got a few strings pulled and they let me try out for it. Passed with flying colors.

If you dont let ur skills get to ur head, then nothing is wrong. If u brag and flaunt it then mayb e ur jsut not mature enough to get the ranks u were giving.. I hate belts.. we dont wear them.. and god forbid being a red sash black stripe in wushu ;) Anyways

just my two cents worth

Peace!

[Laughing Cow]

Tiger_Yin.

"Fast-tracking" here means that People get given/sold a belt and rank when they are not ready for it.

In many Dojo's I been to you often can skip being a white-belt and start as a yellow for a nominal fee.

Most of those places the actual test are a joke filled with lots of garbage and hardly anybody ever fails.

And within 2~3 years we got qualified Instructors who would get beaten by a Tae-bo guy.

[dezhen2001]

i never made it to black belt - i was 1st Kyu for 8 years. Kinda funny, coz i knew up to Nidan level and regularly trounced shodan and Nidan in kumite :)

i did used to teach, but thats coz it was a community club and we didnt have to pay for anything.

Joedoe: but karate comes from Ngo Chor Kuen... ;)

dawood

[neit]

i agree with that article 100%. as a student all i want to do is pay my dues in one clean lump sum, and then train. no messing around. that way if i do receive extra "special training" or some sort of belt, then i know i actually earned it.

[Shah]

i totally agree with the "no fee for tests" thing.

Also one thing to ask, do your trainers (or if you are one) usually work another job, I mean how can the tuitions, unless their real high, be enough to support your income? For example we pay around 70$ every four months and there's maybe thrity or so of us (a guess really) but that can't be enough to pay for anyone's livelihood. What are the prices like where you train?

[Hai_To]

In my old school there were various ranks. You would start off with a gold sash and you would progress to a black sash. There were only 4 sash colors (gold, green, red, black), but you could have anywhere from 0 to 5 stripes on each sash. Ultimately, there were 20 different levels of rank. You could jump up several levels on each test. It all depended on what the teacher wanted from you. Plus there was a $60 dollar testing fee for each exam. This fee also included your annual membership fee for the "association". You could have more than one test per year with, ironically, more than one annual membership fee.

It was a scam pure and simple. It was simply a way for the "teacher" to pad his bottom line at the expense of his students.

To answer your question Shah, this guy made his living off the school. He had/has a lot of students and he charges more than any other school I've seen in New York City. The perception is that if he charges so much, it must be great stuff. The students don't realize that he was disowned by his Sifu. Some of the good schools I've seen in NYC don't have large, spiffy-looking schools or charge a ton of money. These are the ones with the fewest students. Its amazing.

[Cheese Dog]

It's so true. The more they charge the more students they have. There is a McDojo just a couple of miles away from my house that charges $90 or more a month, plus testing fees for many different levels, that is always packed. My instructor teaches out of his home and charges only $30 a month. We have 15 students, they have at least 150.

But we can kick their @sses!!;)

[BrentCarey]

Well, I don't have belt testing fees because I don't have ranks. However, I have implemented one pseudo-rank. Once a student develops a basic working knowledge of about 120 techniques and principles I know longer consider him/her a "beginning" student. He/she may then wear a gold sash to visually distinguish from those students who do not have this basic knowledge.

A student who wears the gold sash is not necessarily superior to one who doesn't, but at least when I say, "show me technique X" or "this follows principle Y", I know that he/she knows what I'm talking about. Also, new students can recognize them as someone to go to for help. It generally takes about 6-12 months to get there.

The only other "colors" I use are a green sash and a black sash. If a student is assisting me with the instruction of a class, he/she may wear a green sash that day to distinguish as an assistant instructor. If someone takes over for me because I am sick or something, he/she may wear a black sash for the day to distinguish as the instructor. (This has never happened but I think it is a good policy as it dissolves some of the mysticism and misplaced reverence around the "black sash".)

Anyway, neither I nor my students hardly ever wear a sash at all, but that's my policy. As far as ranking goes, it is very difficult to say that one student is superior to another student because different students have different goals and different affinities. I emphasize certain skills and principles with some students, and different skills and principles with others.

I digress. Anyway, I have a group of students right now that are toward the end of their basic student requirements (some more than others). Several of them were expecting a big test and were very anxious about it. Basically what I told them was that if I don't already pretty much know what each student can do, then I'm not doing my job very well. I don't need students to prove it with a test. To charge them for such a test is ridiculous.

There is a flip-side to this. It is dang tough to run a MA school. I do not begrudge any school operator the right to raise revenue any way they can (within obvious limits). However, I feel it is important to be clear and honest about what any additional fees are really for.

For example, don't "sell" black belts and pretend that they are somehow comparable to an earned black belt. If you really want to do that, go ahead and make a "fast track" program, complete with belts, testing fees, and whatever else you want to do. However, make it clear that this is a "fast track" program, and that it's main purpose is to give accelerated instruction to people that don't really want in-depth training and would just like to load up on knowledge then go off and practice on their own, while simultaneously being a good source of revenue to the school.

I can even see some value in that. For example, if someone came to my school with some prior MA experience and some good natural talent, and just said they wanted to quickly load up on my style, I would probably give them a crash course. It would just be important that they thoroughly understand that I cannot possibly ensure proficiency in a short time, only load them up with techniques and principles to work on.

This is the problem with the industry in general. The vast majority of instructors deceive or mislead students in some way. This may be something very minor like saying "style X is the most effective self-defense ever", something a bit more devious like false lineages, or something very serious like tricking students into paying for something that is meaningless, unecessary, or that they simply won't receive.

I don't understand this mentality. I much prefer to set student expectations conservatively, and then exceed student expectations later. I find that students appreciate the candid approach and it gains me instant credibility because I am not loading them up with hype.

-B

[neit]

as a student i don't mind paying money as long as it is not wasted. for an example, i'd rather pay $30 extra tuition than pay $30 for a belt. with the tuition, the instructor will atleast pocket the money instead of wasting $5 on a uneeded belt and pocketing $25.

[Laughing Cow]

At my Kwoon we don't have belts or ranks, everything is very low key.

Here is what we are asked to pay:

1.) Membership fee (once only)
2.) Monthly fee
3.) Seminarss if we choose to attend.

Monthly fees do vary depending on location where the style is taught.
i.e. center of town is more expensive than in the burbs.

Seminars like the one this Sunday are held a few times a year and are open to members and non-members. (Members only pay 2/3 of the Seminar fee)

In addition we are given the option to attend once a year a meeting from practicioners from all over the world.

I like it this way.

Cheers.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
i never made it to black belt - i was 1st Kyu for 8 years. Kinda funny, coz i knew up to Nidan level and regularly trounced shodan and Nidan in kumite :)

i did used to teach, but thats coz it was a community club and we didnt have to pay for anything.

Joedoe: but karate comes from Ngo Chor Kuen... ;)

dawood

Well, to be honest I don't know if I could stand by that statement. There are some who believe that Okinawan Karate was directly influenced by Ngor Chor Kun, while others tend more towards White Crane being the influence.

It is funny because we often get people come to watch our class and they dismiss it as useless/wierd/whatever. That is why we usually encourage people to join in with a class rather than just watch - once you actually do it the story is different.

Anyway, back on topic. Our school uses a belt ranking system but it is not compulsory. We charge a nominal testing fee which is mostly refunded if you fail. Our class fees are pretty low anyway, so I don't think that the testing fee we charge is all that unreasonable (especially since we send our results back to our HQ in Malaysia where they are recorded and the belts are issued).

My main issue with the fast-track system that my fiance's sister was involved in was that while you got a discount on tuition you had to commit to at least 2 years. And to be honest, I don't think that they did that great a job of ensuring the skills of the belt recipients (how is that for a nice way of putting it :)). Either way you cut it, she was scheduled to have her black belt within 18-24 months of starting training.

The other beef I had with the system she was in was that the gradings were based on how many katas and techniques you knew, but also on the number of lessons you had attended i.e. you could not grade for belt X until you had attended Y lessons as a given belt. There seemed little requirement for proper understanding of the art, just for what you could remember and how often you turned up.

[pitbull]

joedoe: i didnt read ur post completely but what i can say is that the sang te pi(sai)is a unique ngo chor kun weapon...this also holds true with the tonfer...the sang te pi or 2x short whip was invented by the founding master of ngo chor kun...i think this trivial fact will help link ngo chor kun w some okinawan karate ie naha te or shrin ji

[joedoe]

Originally posted by pitbull
joedoe: i didnt read ur post completely but what i can say is that the sang te pi(sai)is a unique ngo chor kun weapon...this also holds true with the tonfer...the sang te pi or 2x short whip was invented by the founding master of ngo chor kun...i think this trivial fact will help link ngo chor kun w some okinawan karate ie naha te or shrin ji

Thanks pitbull. Interesting info I didn't previously know.

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by Cheese Dog
It's so true. The more they charge the more students they have. There is a McDojo just a couple of miles away from my house that charges $90 or more a month, plus testing fees for many different levels, that is always packed. My instructor teaches out of his home and charges only $30 a month. We have 15 students, they have at least 150.

But we can kick their @sses!!;)

This could be for several reasons:

1.) The students at the McDojo are doing it more for sport/exercise than self defense.

2.) The students like the school. By this I mean the set up. My old Tae Kwon Do school was very beutiful on the inside, with large wooden doors that could slide open.

3.) More students at the big school to train with.

Some students don't go to the private guy not so much because of them question if he is legitimate or not, they just might rather perfer the big school.