do chinese teachers hold back techniques from westerners?

[captain]

in this month's copy of combat magazine,there is an article
that suggests that some chinese masters in wing chun,
are still holding back certain key techniques[from westerners].and as a
result,even your teacher may have missing bits within
the forms he passes to you.
do you believe this is the case?and was combat magazine
right to cite Yip Man as a teacher who would not teach
westerners?

[bob10]

It doesn't surprise me that this still goes on. Even when it is admitted to, IME, people still flock to learn from the "master" (maybe on the grounds that they will be the "one special student").

One of my teachers recently said "if you think that teaching your art will make you weaker, it's best not to teach at all".

Of course the other question to ask is are these "secret techniques" really that worthwhile? I heard a story a while back about a student who was shown, with great reverence, the family's secret texts on point striking. It was nothing that you can't find on Google these days. Other than that we are left with movie stuff - the secret monkey-combs-his-hair move that will make you invincible....

[kj]

Originally posted by captain
in this month's copy of combat magazine,there is an article
that suggests that some chinese masters in wing chun,
are still holding back certain key techniques[from westerners].and as a
result,even your teacher may have missing bits within
the forms he passes to you.
do you believe this is the case?and was combat magazine
right to cite Yip Man as a teacher who would not teach
westerners?

Several propositions could be made along these lines:
[list=1]
All Chinese masters hold back certain techniques from Westerners
Some Chinese masters hold back certain techniques from Westerners
No Chinese masters hold back certain techniques from Westerners
[/list=1]

In all cultures, there will be a range of individualism. So while a given individual may choose or choose not to withhold certain things, the broad answer averaged over time is almost certainly #2.

Turning the notion around a bit, there have been people in other cultures who would not have given a Chinese person in need something to eat or drink on a sweltering day. No less making the kind of deep and lasting investment in them that teaching a martial art requires. Myths and stories are also rife with Chinese masters [of old, at least] to withholding information from their own Chinese students. The blame game doesn't get us far once we exam the broader context of things, no matter what direction one is pointing from.

The real challenge was not merely to find a willing master, but to be resourceful enough to learn. Circumstances may differ, yet I think learners in any time or place will always bear this challenge in common.

It is often said that it is harder to find a good student than to find a good teacher. At one time, it may have been most common for a teacher to carefully select one or a small number of people to invest in and to cultivate. Student bodies may be larger today, but finding a good student remains as challenging as it ever was.

Our choices are so open today, and it is really up to us what and how well we learn. In some ways we have it so much easier than those who came before us. Yet many of us appreciate it so much less, and take our opportunities for granted.

None of these things I maunder about are unique to Chinese teachers or non-Chinese teachers. Culture and other contexts of a person's life will always make some choices necessarily easier, and some choices harder than others. Yet in the end, and regardless of time or culture, our choices are always ours alone.

Was Ip Man a reluctant teacher? In general, I think so. Yet I also suspect that he desired for many of his students to learn well. And I believe he loved Wing Chun. I think it would be nearly impossible to become so accomplished in an art such as this without loving it to one's core. He would not be the first nor last of us to entertain ambivalence or paradox.

Did Ip Man teach Westerners? Not that we know of. But he didn't live in every time and every context either. Who knows what choices he would have made if opportunities or circumstances in his life had been even the slightest bit different.

Do Chinese teachers today pour their all into their students? Little doubt, many do. The question is and always has been, how much can we absorb and actualize?

Just some ponderings.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[t_niehoff]

IMO it is insulting and racist to stereotype "chinese teachers" . And "techniques", secret or otherwise, isn't what makes a WCK fighter. TN

Terence

[bob10]

No-one is stereo-typing. It is a matter of fact that some Chinese teachers will tell you this themselves. So who is the racist?

[t_niehoff]

bob10 think about it. You are saying that some "chinese" teachers -- teachers of a certain ethnic background are in effect racist (treating one or more ethnic groups differently). Perhaps there are some WCK practitioners that are racist, but so what? Isn't it racist thinking (generalizing to all in a group) to assume that this is a "chinese" thing -- and isn't that insulting to persons who are chinese and don't behave that way? Why not just ask aren't there some folks that are racists? But of course, the answer is already patently obvious.

Terence

[bob10]

I didn't bring up the term racist, you did.

As the question was specifically adressed towards Chinese teachers my answer was based on my experiences with Chinese teachers. I'm sorry if my experiences don't fit in with your world view.

If the question had been about English or Russian teachers I would have replied accordingly. I assume if I had said the same about English teachers you would still accuse me of being a racist?

If we are talking in a wider context of cultural background - perhaps you could tell us if, in your opinion, secrecy in martial arts teaching is a general factor in traditional Chinese arts or not?

[yuanfen]

Good post again KJ. proposition 2 is most correct( just preparing a multiple choice test unfortunately for a class of 120).BTW-
Rolf Clasunitzer is half Asian(Japanese?) and half German if memory serves- and he was in one of Ip man's open classes
for a while and also WSL's.
On Ip man-
Why would any decent teacher waste time explaining everything to a bad , uninterested student who pays little if any and attends episodically- no matter the ethnicity.

Points to remember- most folks in Foshan and HK are Chinese.
And- China has been a victim of racism and power European and
Japanese. People tend to forget the larger political environment in which events occur. Context- an important variable.

[Phenix]

IMHO,
it is not about chinese or american or indian .... if is about some individual human behaviour : selfishness and keep information to control..

as Hai Deng said before one generation might lost 30% due to human selfishness .. after two generation not much is there....

Actually, IMHO, I think even worst is giving false information and starting cult like teaching where sifu is always right...and sifu is the only GOD reincarnate...... and sifu knows Chan.... and sifu knows....

In the Qing there is the White Lotus cult and the Yee Ho association where claiming bare body against bullets which cause the down fall of Beijing in 1900's and the chinese suffer....

[t_niehoff]

bob10 writes:

I didn't bring up the term racist, you did. B

Yes, I know. :) TN

As the question was specifically adressed towards Chinese teachers my answer was based on my experiences with Chinese teachers. I'm sorry if my experiences don't fit in with your world view. B

The unfortunate reality is that there are always folks, regardless of their race, that treat different races differently. Where are you going with the inquiry? TN

If the question had been about English or Russian teachers I would have replied accordingly. I assume if I had said the same about English teachers you would still accuse me of being a racist?

Think about your question. Are the english a distinct ethnic or racial group? TN

If we are talking in a wider context of cultural background - perhaps you could tell us if, in your opinion, secrecy in martial arts teaching is a general factor in traditional Chinese arts or not? B

If you think about the historical context of martial arts -- that this was not a mere past-time or social activity as many use it today, but was rather extremely valuable information and skill, almost exactly the same for any skilled activity, like silver-smithing for example. One's learned skill was not something to be just given away. It was something to be earned by the student and the student was expected to apprentice, pay their dues, and if the teacher deemed them worthy, they learned the skills. Craftsmen always kept their skills "secret" since that was how they made their living (Coke doesn't give away their formula; craftsman didn't give away "trade secrets")); MAs kept their skills (training methods, etc.) "secret" since that is what kept them alive. As I said, some craftsmen in deciding who to pass their skills onto may have racial agendas; others, who aren't racist, are more interested in who has demonstrated what they deem "worthiness." TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Most people tend to empathize more strongly with what is similar, starting with themselves, then their immediate family, very close friends, more distant family, regular friends, etc. all the way down to complete strangers different in culture.

The problem is, especially white protestant males, have very little experience in dealing with what is usually a reality for most everyone else.

There are some Chinese stores in Canada that won't allow non-Chinese. Some Chinese WCK teachers that won't take non-Chinese students. There are some golf clubs in the US that won't let in women, Chinese, European, or otherwise.

Is it racist or culturally biased? Is it racist or cultrually biased to call it such? I'll leave that to the PC police. In either case, its a reality resulting from the physcological phenomenon of like liking like, combined with ignorance which still possesses an enormous hold on most people, regardless of ethnic group.

Since you can never control others, all you can do is avoid people you think exhibit these qualities, and make sure through your daily life, you don't pass them along yourself.

[yuanfen]

Are the english a distinct ethnic or racial group? TN
--------------------------------------------

Don't they look alike? Duck Joy and more duck.

[azwingchun]

My qi gong teacher, though not my Sifu in Wing Chun made an interesting comment about this. He is one of the few Chinese teachers who doesn't believe that there is anything that should be held back, and also isn't one who believes that his teachings don't need to be taught very very slowly. His belief is that this comes from teachers wanting to keep students for a long period of time and also a way to make lots of money.

He stated that his other Chinese martial artist friends or qi gong masters say that he is crazy for the way he teaches, and how he gives so much out to a student so quickly. His comment was 'well, maybe I am a bad teacher, or maybe I am just a bad business man'. I found his comment actually amusing. ;)

[wingchunner]

I really don't think it's a matter of racism. I do think it may be because of western thinking. I believe that many westerners think... "hey, I pay my dues, I have the right to learn." Big deal. Just because you pay money you expect someone to teach you everything? I will do my best to teach a student so that they can travel the path they need to take to aquire skill. But, just because they think they should learn it all because they are my 'student' I should show them everything? I don't think so.

Just because a student can do a movement or look good doesn't mean that they have skill (though they might have it, it doesn't mean the absolutely do). I need to see that they are going down the right path so not only I don't lose face, but my instructor's, his instructor, and those that have come before us. I'm not going to cast my pearls to the swine. I have worked with people and I can tell that they are not open to what I have to say. I think to myself "what's the point?!? If I tell them, they will ignore me anyway. So, really, what's the point in sharing what I know, when a.) their not ready for it yet, b.) they aren't open to listen to what I have to say, c.) they're open and listen, but then don't do it, or d.) have poor character or integrity. I have learned how to be able to determine who will learn from me and who I shouldn't really bother with. And sometimes people aren't ready or open at a certain part of their lives to be taught or have things explained. It would be a waste of time. I think it also comes down to the teacher/student relationship. Even though I think many westerners don't get it, I'm sure there are some non-westerners that don't get it either.


Have a great day.

Marty

[bob10]

I agree to some extent to what you say and yet - if you don't want to teach someone, why teach them at all? It seems a little hypocritical to me that someone is good enough to give you money, but not good enough to teach.

I'm sure no-one would advocate inappropriate teaching, but on the other hand if someone is of bad character, maybe your teaching can help them.

I'd also again raise the point of what these "secret" teachings are. Deadly techniques? Dim mak?

As far as the race thing goes, I've had mixed experiences. Interestingly enough I found mainland Chinese teachers to be very open and friendly. Yet a UK based Chinese teacher constantly disparaged "western nonsense". His son also attended a Chinese-only school and, if what he told me was true, some of the views taught there would not be tolerated in any state school.

That doesn't mean all people have the same opinion, but it does mean that a problem exists and ignoring it or romanticising it does no-one any favours, wherever it comes from.

[azwingchun]

I see what your getting at, but at the same time I don't fully agree. Maybe this comes from my ability to be very selective of who I teach. This being because I only teach privately. If I have a student who just isn't getting it, or not paying attention, I have no problem sitting them down and trying to get to the root of the problem. If a student still doesn't seem to care, well I have and will ask them to leave. I take teaching very seriously as I do my Wing Chun, and I am very willing to teach all that I have. So, I choose my students carefully, keep in mind I don't teach at a large school and have huge expenses which would cause me to accept everyone that walked in to pay my bills.

I don't believe in holding back anything. I want my students to become the best they can be, and I don't believe they can do this with me hiding certain so-called-secrets. If I do and only half my students earn the right to learn everything, then the other half will me just mediocore. I believe the statement that students are a reflection of their Sifu and a Sifu is also a reflection of their students. With this in mind, why would I want half or possibly more of my students to be mediocore Wing Chun players. This I believe will reflect back to me and how people see me as a teacher as well as a Wing Chun practitioner.

This brings me back to another statement from an old teacher of mine. He stated that he would never hold back anything, in fact he wanted his students to be better than him. He said that if he could create students that were better or could beat him, then he was a d*mn good teacher. ;)

[t_niehoff]

bob10 wrote:

I agree to some extent to what you say and yet - if you don't want to teach someone, why teach them at all? It seems a little hypocritical to me that someone is good enough to give you money, but not good enough to teach. B

It's more than hypocritical IMO. TN

I'm sure no-one would advocate inappropriate teaching, but on the other hand if someone is of bad character, maybe your teaching can help them. B

Perhaps. TN

I'd also again raise the point of what these "secret" teachings are. Deadly techniques? Dim mak? B

LOL! I think that's more marketing than anything. What I meant was why would you teach someone your personal method of fighting (i.e., style) if they might become your enemy or your competition? In the old says, you wouldn't. Your method would be kept "secret", i.e., within the "family." TN

As far as the race thing goes, I've had mixed experiences. Interestingly enough I found mainland Chinese teachers to be very open and friendly. Yet a UK based Chinese teacher constantly disparaged "western nonsense". His son also attended a Chinese-only school and, if what he told me was true, some of the views taught there would not be tolerated in any state school. B

That doesn't mean all people have the same opinion, but it does mean that a problem exists and ignoring it or romanticising it does no-one any favours, wherever it comes from. B

There are good people and bad people, good teachers and bad teachers, open-minded and close-minded people, etc. If we run into someone that doesn't want to share with us for whatever reason, then we should go somewhere else. TN

Terence

[kj]

Originally posted by bob10
I'd also again raise the point of what these "secret" teachings are. Deadly techniques? Dim mak?

The secret is hard work over time.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[wingchunner]

azwingchun:

I'm not sure if you agree with me or not based on what you said. You seem to not completely agree, but your words kind of say what I've said.

The money is for my time. The money should be given to me in the spirit of a gift. In doing so, they tell me that they trust me with what I teach them and what I don't teach them. The same way I view my relationship with my instructor. If he decides not to teach me something I assume it's for my good or for the better good of the entire group, or that it may not even be necessary. I trust him on this. If I have a student or a fellow student who may not be open or ready, I still toss them a bit of knowledge and see what happens. If they take it and accept it, I will more than likely give them more. If not, at least I gave them a nibble in the hope that at some point they'll get it ( not just the instruction or skill, but the way things should be between us).

Have a good day.

Marty

[azwingchun]

So very, very true.;)

[azwingchun]

I see your point when in a situation such as maybe teaching in a commercial setting (please excuse the term, no insult meant by this). Where someone is accepting any or most people that walk through their doors because of expenses of rent, electric, advertising etc. You may not teach everyone everything, IMHO. There will be those who really work hard for it and really care to promote themselves and Wing Chun, but a majority of them may not, in that type of setting. Does this make sense?

Whereas my situation or anyone else who teaches in a private manner, has a little more abilty to choose the students that they want to teach. And if I have chosen them, then I feel I can teach all I have. ;)

[reneritchie]

Some just want money, and have found they can get it without having to know much. There was an sifu near me (not WCK) who was *excellent*. He needed money but didn't want to teach. He found some locals very infatuated with Bruce Lee, and he basically used them as practice dummies. He pounded on them with loose techniques and never showed them a set, a drill, or anything.

Why would MA be any different than anything else? Some people, regardless of ethnicity, just want to make a buck. Look at how many BS grappling schools popped up after the UFC. Look at how many DVDs you can buy on the streets of of Asia (and Europe to some extent) of flicks just coming out in the theater.

(BTW, a well known sifu once made a nasty remark behind my sifu's back that my sifu taught non-Chinese too properly. Since most of this sifu's students were non-Chinese, I wondered what he taught them?)

[t_niehoff]

kj wrote:

The secret is hard work over time. kj

Unfortunately, there is more to it than that IME. Lots of people work hard their whole lives at all sorts of things and never obtain success (their goals). Gung fu is *skill obtained* by hard work over time. The skill doesn't **just** come from the hard work (I agree one must put in the work); like success in any other part of our lives, there is a combination of factors involved. TN

Terence

[kj]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
kj wrote:

The secret is hard work over time. kj

Unfortunately, there is more to it than that IME. Lots of people work hard their whole lives at all sorts of things and never obtain success (their goals). Gung fu is *skill obtained* by hard work over time. The skill doesn't **just** come from the hard work (I agree one must put in the work); like success in any other part of our lives, there is a combination of factors involved. TN

Terence

Yeah, that too. :D
- kj

[Phenix]

Speaking of learning, in Chinese tradition there is a saying :


" The cultivation of the mind depends on self realization. but Don't enter spiritual cultivation if one has not met a spiritual master.
The cultivation of the body depends on transmission......"

If one serious about this saying, one can see learning something serious is not easy. got to get a spiritual master and got to get a sifu to get body training transmission of cultivation process..

That is very different to today's website Chan, video internal art, Or learning some terminology and thinking knowing the cultivation process.

IMHO, if using this type of ancient standard. I am affraid not too many sifu really learn a system or even qualify to teach. not mention to become sigung this or sigung that. even the sijo might not qualify.


Years ago, a wck practitioner told me Jing comes from hate and shock. According to TCM, constant and excessive anger and hate will damage the liver. constant and excessive Shock will damage the kidney...

Is the ancient standard a realistics and necessary standard for teaching? If yes, that is tough. If no, then running into problem of green teaching green. How will one hold back if doesn't even know better?

[anerlich]

Are the english a distinct ethnic or racial group?

Every time I go to Bondi Beach and hear all the English accents from the backpackers who congregate there, I feel sure this is the case.

I've had a Western instructor - Australian, for the pedants - who held stuff back, and I know it was for the wrong reasons.

The order and timing in which information is presented to the student in learning an art is important. Sometimes inormation prematurely presented to the student can rob them of the opportunity to master more basic concepts. If you are really bored, have a look at my article called "Secrets" on Rene's site which discusses this.

[Rob Wolf]

Hello,
I dont think IMHO that it is always a matter of holding back, perhaps as I have been taught,(several cantonese teachers) It does seem that some folks find it a bit of a chore to drag an individual through the cantonese dialect, a bit of english, some proper guidence, seems to go a long way.......Rob www.sillumwingchun.com

[captain]

Someone with the technical know how [computer wise
that is] should scan a copy of the current edition of
combat magazine.it's a british magazine,and the article
is towards the begining of the paper.

it struck me as unfair that certain bits and pieces would be held back from a genuine student.i attended a pretty good drama
school in london,and if i see a student cares,then i will
happily pass along things that i only came upon at that
acting school.if you say in an ad for instance." i teach this".
then you have a moral duty [no,really] to do just that.

the piece also says that really,only economics has lead
chinese teachers [cause terrybaby we are talking about a
chinese martial art,and not french canadian checkers]into
taking gwailos??[spelling?].i want everything,and not a
dilluted dance.if you are a westerner who is taught by a
sifu from china,ask your teacher about this.

[kj]

Originally posted by captain
it struck me as unfair that certain bits and pieces would be held back from a genuine student.

Life isn't fair, everyone is human, and caveat emptor.

The more compelling question is, IMHO, what is to be done if a student believes information is being withheld from them. Finding someone to blame won't solve the problem.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[quiet man]

Do chinese teachers hold back techniques from westerners?

Some of them do.

My sifu (who isn't chinese) often describes the reasoning of such teachers: "Gwai lou isn't here to learn Wing Chun, gwai lou is here so that the chinese man can earn money".

OTOH, some chinese teachers will teach you everything they know. It all depends on the person.

But you have to understand how some chinese people think - Wing Chun is a powerful weapon, and the white man is the enemy. Would you give your weapon to the enemy?

[russellsherry]

hi guys this is a touchy subject ok myself and a other famous aussie sifu , were at a club for well over 12 years nearly.
the sifu teaching, taught up to first section of bill jee some dummy poon sau and driiled us in footwok and the rest of the time choy lay fut becuase he did not know the whole style but said he would teach it later instead of being honerst and saying
i have to bring my sifu out to show us the pole ete he kept misleading the school and the sifu lost all his senors we should be honerst in what we know and say we teach what do you guys think ? peace russ