Centerline...

[Knifefighter]

OK, here's another technical question for you guys. See if you can keep it from turning into another debate about lineage.

Is it your centerline or your opponent's centerline?

[tparkerkfo]

Well, I beleive it is your centerline if your speaking about what I am trying to maintain. I hopfuly can keep my opponet from having a centerline bead on me. But this is secondary as, if you think about, most styles don't revolve around a centerline idea as us. Choy Li Fut attacks for example may not care so much if they have the "center". I don't think a wrestler would be as interested in having their center a little off. Though I suppose we could argue that even in their styles the center is advantagous.

Just some non-lineage thoughts
Tom
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[reneritchie]

Chinese is a different language to English, and that in some part effects thought. Just like water is ice is steam, Hei/Qi is air is breath is vital essance, the Jee Ng Sien (or Jong Sien to some) is the line of your center, your opponent's center, and the connecting line in between. You to understand all three, dynamically, for the concept to make sense, IMHO.

(If you factor in the Sien Mien (Fan - the area fanning out from the center in which both your hands can move without your body needing to majorly displace itself), then ideally if you can keep your center on the mutual center and the opponent's center out of the 'fan', you have an advantage).

[Knifefighter]

Does the application of centerline theory change against a straight-up standup fighter vs. a bob-and-weave-rotation-hook type fighter?

[reneritchie]

The concept seldom (never say never) changes, but the application must always be adjusted to suit current conditions.

[azwingchun]

Yes, we teach that the centerline (or center core) will waivers slightly as the body moves. Meaning if you stand still in front of me (no matter the angle) your centerline or coreline is dead center of mass. But as you shift or move, in a such a way as bobbing or turning the cenetrline line slightly shifts out of dead center mass. This is more of a concern to us when striking at the centerline, since the waiver is only a small distance, but can make a difference. I hope this make sense. ;)

[azwingchun]

By the way, for a better look at what I am saying. Take a glass of water and look at it as it sits there. Imagine where the centerline would be. Now, spin or shake the glass up so that the water spins around the glass. Now, where is the centerline? ;)

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by azwingchun
By the way, for a better look at what I am saying. Take a glass of water and look at it as it sits there. Imagine where the centerline would be. Now, spin or shake the glass up so that the water spins around the glass. Now, where is the centerline? ;)

Looks to me like the centerline pretty much stays the same. If this is the case, does that mean that if a boxer has dropped his head to the side and rotated his upper body that you are now trying to hit his side, shoulder, and side of the head rather than his solar plexus, chest, neck and face?

[AndrewS]

Knifefighter,

yes. Probably the side of his neck, back of his head/neck, floating ribs, kidneys, and lateral aspect of his knee

Andrew

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


An easy way to think of the centerline is it being your spine. Kind of how you described it in the spinning water. The turnado looking water looks like the spine inside the center of mass in the water.

Of course the other stuff Rene described is spot on. The root of any basic training teaches you to cultivate the spine by pulling it in two directions. This, even if we never had a fight in our life (or trained fighting methods), is the best way to improve ones health thru better posture which will create better circulation.

This was just some thoughts to go along with the Jung Sein conversation.


Regards,

[azwingchun]

How can you say that the centerline stays the same, when looking at the glass with the water moving inside it? Just curious.

No, you wouldn't stray that far off, but if you are talking about hitting dead center, then due to the waiver your attack would land slightly off what the area would have been if the opponent was not shifting or spinning around. Obviously those other areas you mentioned are striking targets if wide open, but I am specifically speaking about attaking only center. ;)

By the way, awesome thread. I am interested in seeing others viewpoints on this and how they use their Wing Chun with the centerline theory.

[reneritchie]

Jim is correct! The center line is not superficial.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by azwingchun
How can you say that the centerline stays the same, when looking at the glass with the water moving inside it? Just curious.

Well... I guess you can take two tacks.

One... Watch at the center of the water. It doesn't change.

Two... Watch the water spin around. In this case the centerline rotates 360 degrees.

I went with the first one because it seems it would be very hard to chase around the swirling water (rotating opponent).

[azwingchun]

You are right, if you look down into the glass the dead center doesn't change. But as the water climbs lets say the right side of the glass, it's center mass does change, thus changing it's center. And your right, chasing the water around would be difficult. But we don't spin around like that. But we do spin or shift from side to side. So, as your opponet spins or turns to throw a hook punch or a spinning kick their bodies waiver, just as the water in the glass does. Thus changing where their dead center of mass would be. ;)

[azwingchun]

As far as chasing your opponent when spinning or turning, you do this all the time in Wing Chun, to hide your center as you attack your opponents center. So, in a sense you are doing this all the time. ;)

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Again,

I am not sure what your refering to, or what your looking for. I think there were some great answers....though I am still puzzled by the relevance of the spinning water. LOL.

The simplist way to think about the center line is to think of it as a straight line connecting two objects. The point that they connect can be thought of as the center of gravity or the core of the bodies. If you have a cylinder or a ball, this would be the exact center of the object. BUT, our body is far from perfectly laid out and thus we can not just say it is the center of our body. I perfer the using the spine as the origin of the center. This would then connects to the opponents spine, depending on many other factors. But this is a simple approach.

If we attack the spine, we attack the structure of the opponent as well as to upset them. The spin is the base for the hands and if the spin is not aligned or affected, the hands will be affected. Of course things slightly change once one or the other person starts to turn.

If the person is tall or short, the centerline stays the same. If you want to get weird and precise, then I suppose you could say the center line might be changed if some one bends over. It depends if you view the line as a line or a plane. If it is a line, then it doesn't matter if the person is lying down or not. But if you are speaking of a plane, then it would make a difference. But in any case, I think it is a model that you use. You can take it to far.

The idea is you protect your center line to prevent yourself from being hit while giving you the greatest structural advantage. If you can get the person to not face you, meaning their centerline is not locked onto you, then you should have the advantage. I think of the center line much like a drinking straw. The straw is very strong and stable from a specific angle, head on. And that angle is aimed directly into our opponent. Our arms form the physical manifistation of the centerline. Now azwingchun can complain about my analogy. LOL.

Just my thoughts....which I advise you to ignore. LOL.
Tom
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[Knifefighter]

I was just curious as to how the centerline theory might apply to fighting a boxer such as Mike Tyson (in his earlier days) who had a lot of up-down/side to side head/upper body movement and threw a lot of hooks. When he dropped in to deliver a hook or uppercut, his upper body center and as his center of gravity made some pretty significant shifts.

[azwingchun]

LOL...I wouldn't make fun of your analogy. It is fine for your description of the centerline. Though, maybe I look at the centerline differently. I don't look at it as a superficial line of the outside of the body. I look at it as a line which actually cuts the body directly in half, in other words it goes deep into and through the body. Which in my way of belief is dead center of mass.

Being dead center of mass, now with that in mind, I don't have to be directly in front of my opponent to attack center . I can attack my opponents center reagrdless of what angle I am to them. As long as my hands or legs come off my center and hit dead center of their mass. Here comes another analogy for you. It is like cutting a pie, regardless of where you are in relationship to the pie you can cut it right down the middle. How's that one tparkerkfo? LOL!:p

[old jong]

But still Mike Tyson is not a piece of cake!;)

[azwingchun]

Actaully, I heard someone call him a fruit cake the other day. So there! LOL!;)

[tparkerkfo]

Knifefighter,
Young or old, I think the center line is the least of your worries about Iron (perhaps some now would say Tin) Mike. To make this a more current topic, lets change it to Roy Jones Jr. My favorite boxer. And no I am not on the band wagon!!!! Joy can attest that I liked him for a while. LOL.....anyways....You certanly can and should use the centerline theory. Because they are bobing and weaving, it makes it difficult but not impossible. Sit in front of a wall bag for a long time. Then you will have an inate sense of the center line. Always cleave straight in front of you....well, perhaps there are exceptions. But you punch like he is a wallbag, straight in front of you, and you hit what ever is there. If he is bent over, you hit what is exposed. Of course this is an oversimplfication...but what do you expect over the net. LOL.

azwingchun,
I agree with you for the most part. The centerline doesn't stop at the skin, but it goes deep into the oppoent. If the opponent were a solid mass, like the jong or something, then I would agree it would be dead center. But as we are fluid, bones, and organs, that makes things differnt. I am not satisfied with hitting dead center. I think that can be used to spin or deflect the energy. But I think the Spine is a good place to focus on since it is the core of our motion, even if it is not the dead center. This ofcourse doesn't take into acoount the dan tien which is suposedly the center of gravity at the navel. Of course we are spliting hairs and if you can make it work, then it is good.

Tom
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[azwingchun]

I agree with what you say about splitting hairs. And don't get me wrong, I don't always attack dead center in my Wing Chun. There are times you have to deviate from it, though only enough to counter a certain technique. IMHO.

Now on the dan tien being the true center of gravity. That is also up to debate, depending on who you believe as far as the location of of the dan tien. More splitting of hairs. LOL! I say this because I had a very interetsing discussion on the location of the dan tien and the center of gravity with my qi gong Sifu. And if they are actually the same. But I ran out of analogies, so I will pause a moment, unless you really what to hear it. ;)

[tparkerkfo]

azwingchun,

I don't follow the dantien theories or medical stuff a lot, but I should. From what I remember there are a few different "dan tiens". I may not have the names correct, so forgive me. So I see your point of it depending. I think there is one close to the navel and another much deeper if I remember correctly. But don't quote me. If I remember correctly, the center of gravity for a human is about the same spot. Maybe one of our more medically adept members can chime in.

opps...moving off topic a bit.
Tom
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[TjD]

the way i think about centerline is that you want to strike your oppoents root. the root is in the center (usually).

if you're going to punch someone in the head, your going to want to punch towards the center of the head, or else your strike will glance off and not cause nearly as much damage. when your strike connects in a path moving towards the center of the head, you inflict maximum damage because the impact has no where else to travel.

another example, if you are standing square to someone and strike them in the shoulder, their body twists (unless they are extremely rigid), which negates some to a lot of the impact. if you strike them in the middle of the chest, they either fall back or have to absorb the entire blow.

when you strike against someones root (read centerline), either they absorb the entire strike and keep their root (painful), or loose their root (less painful, but you gain control). you win both ways.

[azwingchun]

As far as the dan tien goes, well as said earlier, I was origianlly taught that they were the same. And basically, if you make a line at your navel and follow it through to your back, then draw two lines from the front and back, downwards to meet at the rectum. This will look like an upside down triangle, well dead center of the triangle is where you will find the true dan tien and the center of gravity. As I said this how I was originally taught.

My qi gong/TCM Sifu says that many people believe this, but it is incorrect. He states that this is true for the finding the center of gravity, but the dantien is located 1-1 1/2 down from the navel and inside the body approx 3 inches. And located slightly lower for women.

So, who knows............up for debate again, I guess. ;)