shaolin staff?

[germpest]

the way I see alot of shaolin staff forms, the practitioner is holding it down at the bottom 1/4 of the staff, giving the opponent 2/3 to 3/4 of his weapon. Please help me understand this.

[Kinjit]

Why is that a disadvantage then?

[germpest]

you're giving the opponent most of your weapon, it will be easier to take away, plus it takes longer on horizontal swings to strike with.

[Kinjit]

do you suggest holding it in the middle?

[Kinjit]

Just curious, have you done any weapons sparring?

[germpest]

not for striking,

=======================

heres our staff, where I've seen shaolin styles hold it is here.

===============x======x

my style happens to hold it here

=======x=======x=======

[germpest]

no, I haven't, I'm only a yellow belt by the way.

[Fen]

Most Karate styles use the staff in the middle. And what staff sets I have seen done by the style known as Kung fu san soo. They also do the same (H) pattern Forms like Karate. As all the forms in san soo. At least what I have seen bye them. (From White to Black)

~Jason

[Kinjit]

I'm not too experienced myself, so this is mostly from observation (weapons sparring) from what I've heard and seen... The guy holding it like a spear almost always wins. It's just plain easier to fight with a staff that way... But some japanese styles shift grip from spear to middle.

[germpest]

H pattern?

[Fen]

H pattern...

When you do your forms, it will make an H like pattern!
Unlike BSL and other CMA's will go from south to north and back with deviations in it's pattern! But NOT all i think?hehehe But from what i have seen and learned this is the basic pattern for CMA! But not Contemporary Wushu thou. They use an X pattern and go all over the dam floor!

~Jason:D

[Kinjit]

anyhow, I think you should train to be able to use your staff from any grip...err, yeah..;)

[germpest]

still don't understand the H pattern.

[Brad]

In contemporary changquan competition forms I think you have to hit all for corners. But the other contemp. chang quan forms you mostly go right to left and back like traditional longfist forms.

Also in those staff styles where you hold the bottom 1/4 of the staff, you don't neccesarily fight with the longer end. So you can fight close quarters with the short end, and use the longer end for more knockout type blows, or just to keep you opponent at a distance. And if your opponent were to try and grab the long end of your staff wouldn't that create an opening for you to just punch and kick him since his hands are holding your weapon?

[Fen]

Never mind the H thang! It will come to you in time.

I feel as the same as Kinjit and Brad on the staff!

~Jason:rolleyes:

[freedom76]

An additional advantage of holding the staff nearer to one end is to keep distance. The staff is a long-range weapon, so to speak.
Of the three shaolin staff forms I've learned, I hold the staff near the middle, at the end, and with both hands like in your diagram. It depends on what the purpose of the movement...clear a lot of space, strike a specific point, pin, block, sweep, etc. Also, all my shaolin staff forms use a waxwood staff (one end is tapered) so the balance point is off-center nearer to the thicker end (or the bottom, my primary grip is just below this point). A good example of a shaolin staf from that uses multiple grips is one called 12 winds (that's what we've called it anyway, I haven't personally met anyone else that has done it). It is shown in Jet Li's Shaolin Temple movie where a group is doing this form at the Shaolin Temple.

[Brad]

When you do forms, what directions do you go?

[Brad]

To use germpest's staff diagraming with the x marking hand positions, we hold our staff's like this:

============x=========x=====
or
=================x=========x

depending on the technique. BTW, we mostly use waxwood too.

[germpest]

Brad "When you do forms, what directions do you go? "

North, south, east and west. Is that what you mean?

[Brad]

Yeah, that's it I think. Doesn't allways litterealy make an H or I. Sometimes a T I guess, lol.

[germpest]

so what does the other CMA do that don't make an H?

[Fen]

Originally posted by tao of wushu
BSL and other CMA's will go from south to north and back with deviations in it's pattern!

~Jason:D

[freedom76]

In my experience, most shaolin forms move east and west (usually starting west a couple moves, or at least a look to the left) then go east. A lot of shaolin forms end in the "hero" pose...i.e. horse position with left fist down to left thigh and right fist above the head. However, these are only generally true, there are of course exceptions.
The plum flower forms move in different directions, as in the petals of the flower.

[joedoe]

If you hold the staff at one end, you maximise your range. This does not mean that you cannot use 2 ends, it just means that your ready position is with one end pointed at your opponent.

And if you are silly enough to allow your opponent to take control of the other end, then you deserve to have it taken off you ;)

[CrippledAvenger]

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't holding a staff near the one end add more power to a swing? Sorta like if you choke up on a hammer, versus swinging it from the base?

[joedoe]

Yup. Leverage.

Also allows you to use short movements, and linear attacks (jabs) more easily than a central grip.

In our style, we transition from end-grip to central grip fairly regularly, depending on what attack/defence you are performing. However our on-guard position is a one-ended grip.

[germpest]

takes longer to swing from the end. more power is generated in the middle, by "pushing and pulling", the striking end is pushed as the other is pulled at doubling the power, add that with proper foot work and rotation. ouch.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by germpest
takes longer to swing from the end. more power is generated in the middle, by "pushing and pulling", the striking end is pushed as the other is pulled at doubling the power, add that with proper foot work and rotation. ouch.

In germpests profile, under the section "How long have you trained" it says "About a year."

Explains a lot huh! ;)

[joedoe]

Originally posted by germpest
takes longer to swing from the end. more power is generated in the middle, by "pushing and pulling", the striking end is pushed as the other is pulled at doubling the power, add that with proper foot work and rotation. ouch.

You can still use a push/pull motion holding it single ended. However you also have the advantage of leverage ;)

[dezhen2001]

depends on the size of the staff :p

dawood

[Laughing Cow]

Didn't chinese staff fighting develop from the spear??

Either way I think you should be familiar with different grips and the possible combinations/attacks.

[joedoe]

I am not sure about that. I would make sense to me that it would have been the other way around as the staff is a simpler weapon. But who knows?

[dezhen2001]

LC: i think some staff techniques did... the longer poles certainly have that influence... but the "eyebrow high" pole is not so similar. Im sure you have seen the Chen spear :)

dawood

[Laughing Cow]

Dawood.

Thanks, yeah I have seen the Chen spear.

BTW, still waiting for my Sifu to demo the other stuff he hasn't shown us yet. Here is what I know he knows of our weapons.

1.) single straight sword (dan jian)
2.) double straight sword (jian)
3.) single broad sword (dan dao)
4.) staff (gun)
5.) 13 long pole (shisan gan)
6.) double mace (shuang jian)
7.) spring autumn big broadsword (chunjiu dadao)
8.) pear blossom spear with white ape staff (liuhua qiang/baiyuan gun)
9.) etc.

[dezhen2001]

cool, as i dont do chen i havent seen so much

lao ji yi and er lu,
xin jia yi and er lu
19 step form
38 step form
25 step form

broadsword
straight sword
spear
pole
kwan dao

thats it really, they look very cool... i know theres a lot more that we do such as fan, steel ball etc. but i havent seen it :)

dawood

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by dezhen2001

... thats it really, they look very cool... i know theres a lot more that we do such as fan, steel ball etc. but i havent seen it :)
dawood

There is also a 2 section staff form.
Steel ball weighs a mere 14kg(~31 pounds).
Not sure of the steel tube exercise as yet, only seen a few pics.

But those are still some way off for me.
:D
Cheers.

[dezhen2001]

a mere 14kg LOL! i havent seen those, only read about them... im not a chen guy remember :p

dawood

[Tainan Mantis]

I posted some Shaolin stick clips in the thread called "video clips for stick"

You can see that one end is for hitting.
After this method is mastered the other end is used also.

Shaolin staff uses long range and the method of using a long weapon for close quarter fighting.

It is not the method where the grip is near the middle and you use your hands for push and pull leverage though.
That is rather dangerous as it leaves a big whole in the middle.

There is a method where the hands are near the middle, but closer to one side than the other as well as several other methods.


Ming dynasty Shaolin manuscripts also describe the chief movement and posture of staff and spear "barbarian surrendering pose"

One end of the weapon points to the enemy at all times.
Holding the weapon like a double ended oar for a kayak is not too good.

[germpest]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis

One end of the weapon points to the enemy at all times.
Holding the weapon like a double ended oar for a kayak is not too good.

why? for both of the sentences.

[hasayfu]

Just to chime in a bit. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. A middle grip like germpest posts is better for a shorter stick. About EyeBrow height as was mentioned. Trying to do long pole techniques with this staff is not that effective because to little of the end is left after proper gripping. The key to this style is the "double head." Your center is not as exposed as you may think.

Long pole techniques did originate from spear. In the "water margin" you read of people walking around with their spear and broadsword. It was common for people to bring these weapons into a restaurant. Spear techniques were derived from armies having to fight side by side so it's very linear. Later, it was thought that the point was too brutal and thus moved to long pole.

By holding it on one end, very small movements translate to very powerful movements at the end. My si-hing can pulverize walnuts at the end of his 9 foot staff with very little motion. Trying to grab the end from a good player can be very detrimental to your health :P

Hung Gar has both long and short stick sets.

[joedoe]

Interesting points. However, in our art we have a beggar's cane which is about 4' long. It is often used single-ended, but it is also often used single-handed as well.

Come to think of it, our 'long' pole is eyebrow height and we also use it predominantly single-ended. However we do transition to a central grip at times as well. The most power is actually generated by the transition between grips. :)

[No_Know]

====x'====l====x"=====

moves l as the body twists making an arc. No power from weapon center of balance.


=========x'=========x"

x' is the fulcrum and like a rudder x" quickly moves the other end for whiplike bludgeoning force.

Therefore this is more powerful and quicker. Also circular/arcing knocks can be made and a secondary action can begin while the initial strike finishes as it is waxwood and a flexible tool.

[TjD]

x======x==============================

for us :D

but the wing chun pole isn't used as much for whacking as it is for thrusting and stabbing (just like a spear).

we hold it very close to the base of the pole as it protects your hands by keeping them ****her away from your opponent. (when your hands get whacked by a pole - usually it gets dropped). so in a sense, keeping your hands in the center of the pole is just as dangerous when it comes to losing a pole because they are much easier to hit. in fact i'd say having someone grab my pole gives them less chance of taking it from me then if they hit my hands and i dropped it.

another reason for holding it like this is the obvious distance advantage, the wing chun pole is 9 to 9.5 feet long usually (sometimes more). by the time you run in the whack me with your pole (which functionally has half the length), if i'm any good hopefully youll be crying on the ground already :D

our pole is also very stiff - no flopping around like waxwood. made of oak or teak or some other hardwood. makes for less of the whipping power that no know speaks of - but makes the thrusts all that much more deadly.

[germpest]

the staffs we use are very hard and don't bend at all. My staff is stainded white oak, or something, it's pretty cool, and it's about 6'2". but you get more power from the center grip. pulling and pushing at the same time. For example, if you hit some one in the balls and then hit the in the nose, when their head is coming down from the groin hit, the force of that punch is twice the strength at least.

[No_Know]

That sounds like two punches. Groin shot then slight withdrawl to uppercut to the nose.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by germpest
the staffs we use are very hard and don't bend at all. My staff is stainded white oak, or something, it's pretty cool, and it's about 6'2". but you get more power from the center grip. pulling and pushing at the same time. For example, if you hit some one in the balls and then hit the in the nose, when their head is coming down from the groin hit, the force of that punch is twice the strength at least.

I bet you that can be done just as quickly using a single-ended grip, but you would have the advantage of the leverage generated by the single-ended grip.

[germpest]

no_know - it is, or a punch and a kick, but that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the combined forces. The groin hit causes the head to come down fast. The speed his head comes down and the speed you punch him in the face is much like the pushing and pulling aspect of the middle grip.

[No_Know]

The end staff grip of flexible staff can do the same with a poke and a flick

Or flick shot to the groin then flick shot to down comming head.

But with end gripping it can be as fast as balanced grip only without shifting of the feet or stance. It is more ecconomical of effort and can have at least the same power.


And the grion then face, that seems more like strategy than Power.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by germpest
no_know - it is, or a punch and a kick, but that's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the combined forces. The groin hit causes the head to come down fast. The speed his head comes down and the speed you punch him in the face is much like the pushing and pulling aspect of the middle grip.

I understand what you are saying.

But the simple physics says that the single-ended grip provides better leverage. Same reason why you hold a baseball bat at one end and not in the middle.

[germpest]

baseball bat is not 6 feet long. and the time it takes to swing with an end grip is longer, plus it is easier to take away.

[joedoe]

You are assuming that you swing the 6' pole like a baseball bat (which isn't impossible BTW). It's all about leverage and fulcrum points.

Look, it is abvious that you are failing to understand the use of a pole using the single-ended grip. It is a simple matter of physics. Look up how levers & fulcrums work then you might understand it a bit better.

[germpest]

I understand what your saying.

[Tainan Mantis]

Germpest,
Since we were talking about Shaolin staff I am talking about the method I was taught which matches what was written down by people who studied at the Shaolin Temple in the Ming dynasty.
Later I will do a complete translation of these works for all to read.

In this Shaolin method, since it is not known what type of technique the opponent will use, it is safest to keep the point aimed at the opponent.
Then, depending on the situation and type of weapon he has you can alter the circumstances.

In Song Jiang Zhen school of weapon fighting it is different.
They have preserved the movement of troops on the battlefield in their school of weaponry.
It needs a very large group of people to practice.
Everyone has a different weapon, be it long or short.

As the people run around each other in strict battle formation they attack according to a fixed plan.
Each few seconds the opponent, hence weapon, is different.

Their school employs head strike, groin strike, head strike as the main method.

Later it becomes more complicated.
This Song Jiang Zhen method is different from what was known as the famous Shaolin stick method.

[germpest]

thanks for the information Tainan Mantis. Looking forward to that translation.

[norther practitioner]

We use both
======x====x======
and
=========x======x=
in our long fist and shaolin forms.