Leung Jan's WCK

[reneritchie]

Here's a short clip on Gulao (Koo Lo) WCK:

http://www.ee.cuhk.edu.hk/~ymfung/kulo/PoAUoo/poauoo.html

It is *scary* close, in movement and flavor, to both Sum Nung WCK and Cho Ga WCK. The same historical signatures appear across these branches in movement, platform, and even language.

Beyond stories and personal beliefs, the generosity in families like the Fung's, sharing their art, gives us the best glimpse back in time, and combined with the Yip Man family, the clearest picture of what Leung Jan taught, and combined with the Cho's and Sum Nung, what our shared Red Junk ancestors taught.

[t_niehoff]

RR wrote:

It is *scary* close, in movement and flavor, to both Sum Nung WCK and Cho Ga WCK. The same historical signatures appear across these branches in movement, platform, and even language. . . Beyond stories and personal beliefs, the generosity in families like the Fung's, sharing their art, gives us the best glimpse back in time, and combined with the Yip Man family, the clearest picture of what Leung Jan taught, and combined with the Cho's and Sum Nung, what our shared Red Junk ancestors taught. RR

I don't know why you are making the point (the context for it) but I agree that when we put marketing aside and outlandish, unproven claims aside, and get down to nail and tacks, we see the same core elements across lineages that can be *reliably* (i.e., *not* just "grandmaster" so-and-so says but can't prove) traced back historically. On the other hand, we also need to recognize that WCK is a conceptual art, and concepts permit a great deal of flexibility in interpretation/expression (which makes absolute sense as WCK takes the approach of letting the opponent tell us how to defeat him; as each opponent is unique we need a great deal of flexibility to "fit in" with each). It's this flexibility which is WCK's greatest strength and also its greatest weakness. TN

Terence

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Here's a short clip on Gulao (Koo Lo) WCK:

http://www.ee.cuhk.edu.hk/~ymfung/kulo/PoAUoo/poauoo.html

It is *scary* close, in movement and flavor, to both Sum Nung WCK and Cho Ga WCK. The same historical signatures appear across these branches in movement, platform, and even language.





IMHO, yup, looking at it, there is also an unique signature of Emei 12 Zhuang within the set the old master did.....

If Brother and sister from Gulo asked me I will say yes. there is an unique 12 zhuang's signature...
Also we do the same type of Chi Sau....
We are from same root.

[Phenix]

while old master Fung's form later in the video.
Do you see these similar type of postures?

in the attach file, Those are Emei 12 zhuang's......
How close should we be to draw conclusion on
Emei and white crane.
Decide for yourself.

[Phenix]

Saluting DR. Leung Jan with respect.


-------------
My Way
by Frank Sinatra


And now, the end is near, and so I face, the final curtain.
My friend, I'll say it clear,
I'll state my case, of which I'm certain
I've lived, a life that's full, I've traveled each and every highway
But more, much more than this, I did it my way.

Regrets, I've had a few, but then again, too few to mention
I did, what I had to do, and saw it through, without exemption
I planned, each charted course, each careful, step along the byway,
But more, much more than this, I did it my way.

Yes, there were times, I'm sure you knew
When I bit off, more than I could chew.
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I ate it up,, and spit it out.
I faced it all and I stood tall, and did it my way......

------------------------------------------------------

[hakka mui]

reneritchie

thanks for posting those clips and information.

I am always interested in how different families practice wing chun - sort of similar but different :) if you understand what I mean.

Regards,

hakka mui

[saulauchung]

The introduction tells of Leung Jan returning to Ku Lo at the age of 70 and taught this version of Wing Chun to Wong Wah Sarn (27 years old). Wong Wah Sarn then, at the age of 82, taught the 17 year old boy Fung Chun, and so on and so forth.

When Yip man made the video before his death at the age of 70-something, he needed constant reminder of the techniques, and to all honesty, he looked weak and frail.

Without being disrespectful, I think the Wing Chun taught by a master in his prime would be 'different' to when he's nearing his death, where his body can no longer exert the strength and energy necessary to show his students first hand the full devastation of the art. Noting that experience increases over age being a fact, but so is the memory decreasing.

Sorry if I've offended some people, but it is simply my views and observation.

[tparkerkfo]

Hello SauLauChung,

You have a point...maybe. Age alone is not a indicator of fitness at all. My Sigung in Hung Gar is around about 70 and he can easily do his forms without any help or resting. LOL. As can many, many others.

Yip Man had throat cancer, if I remember correctly, from years of smoking. He filmed those movies litteraly days before death. I am quite sure the outcome would be quite different had they filmed them a year or two earlier before he started to show the serious signs of cancer.

I don't know what if any health issues Leung Jan had, but it may or may not have played a role in what he taught. We can't just assume it did because he was old and Yip Man looked bad on video. Don't make sense, comparing apples and oranges. But the story does say that he figured he wouldn't have long to live so he taught an abbriviated/concentrated/condensed version. But that could be said in hindsight. Who knows, maybe he thought he had years left to go and was just condensing his wing chun for other pracitical reasons.

Anyways, I am looking for ward to seeing that clip. Unfortunatly it is down. Arghh. Hofully it will be back up!

Tom
________
CHEVROLET CAPRICE SPECIFICATIONS (http://www.chevy-wiki.com/wiki/Chevrolet_Caprice)

[TjD]

IMO, and in my experience of being taught, teaching has little to do with "showing." A good teacher, guides the student through the learning process. Once they learn how to learn wing chun, its central point, what its all about (something that can't be described in words) then they can take the art as far as they want to. This is what makes wing chun so dynamic, but also allows for a student to surpass his teacher - something that can't be accomplished if the teacher just shows the student how to do things.

so showing a student the full devastation wing chun can cause won't let them be able to accomplish it, showing them how will. A 70-80 year old man can still show a student how to create the power, while being too old to express it maximally.

travis

[rochester]

I thought Koo Lo was composed of separate techniques. Seemed like he was doing a version of siu nam tao.

[t_niehoff]

rochester wrote:

I thought Koo Lo was composed of separate techniques. Seemed like he was doing a version of siu nam tao. R

San sik aren't static positions; the saam bai fut section of the SNT can, for example, be considered a san sik. TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Terence - I'm posting it so that people can see for themselves, through both Yip Man (what most are familiar with) and Gulao/Koo Lo, what it was that Leung Jan consistently taught, and how that same teaching is consitent with what was passed down through the Sum Nung and Cho Ga lineages. It's not a matter of so-and-so says there was secret version "x" or this-and-that claims the complete original system looked different via "y". Many people have said look to the system(s), well, here they are, look to them.

On your second point, this is true enough, but every kite needs a string. It's fine, in fact required, that you soar, but if you lose your ground (what came before), you can soar off into oblivion (lose the core).

saulauchung - Grandmaster Fung Chun (in the video) is over 70 years of age. He looks pretty good. Ever see Pan Nam use the 12'+ pole at over 80? Moved it like an f'n toothpick. Sum Nung lived over 75 years and at that age could put people into the floor. The wisdom earned over those decades can be invaluable to a student.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Terence - I'm posting it so that people can see for themselves, through both Yip Man (what most are familiar with) and Gulao/Koo Lo, what it was that Leung Jan consistently taught, and how that same teaching is consitent with what was passed down through the Sum Nung and Cho Ga lineages. It's not a matter of so-and-so says there was secret version "x" or this-and-that claims the complete original system looked different via "y". Many people have said look to the system(s), well, here they are, look to them.

.

IMHO,
It is just a matter of time for the "original" face of SLT to be revial. We all have never lost it anyway. why seek outside...

there is only Spring, there is no "watery version " of spring. Have faith with the ancient ancestors, don't need to change ancestors...

Spring is here.

[t_niehoff]

RR wrote:

Terence - I'm posting it so that people can see for themselves, through both Yip Man (what most are familiar with) and Gulao/Koo Lo, what it was that Leung Jan consistently taught, and how that same teaching is consitent with what was passed down through the Sum Nung and Cho Ga lineages. It's not a matter of so-and-so says there was secret version "x" or this-and-that claims the complete original system looked different via "y". Many people have said look to the system(s), well, here they are, look to them. RR

You'll never convince "those people" ("I have the secret version" or "original version") that they don't; they are not motivated for the right reasons, and you can't do anything for someone motivated by the wrong reasons. TN

On your second point, this is true enough, but every kite needs a string. It's fine, in fact required, that you soar, but if you lose your ground (what came before), you can soar off into oblivion (lose the core). RR

True enough. TN

saulauchung - Grandmaster Fung Chun (in the video) is over 70 years of age. He looks pretty good. Ever see Pan Nam use the 12'+ pole at over 80? Moved it like an f'n toothpick. Sum Nung lived over 75 years and at that age could put people into the floor. The wisdom earned over those decades can be invaluable to a student. RR

No doubt after a certain point - one that is different for each individual - our physical prowess will begin to decline. How that affects our skills is also an individual matter. But it seems to me that if we have developed the skills, which comes only by using them, that we will still be able to guide others along the path (it is only the old guys that haven't really done anything that are useless). For example, Helio may not be what he once was, but is certainly an excellent resource and teacher (he *knows* from firsthand experience). TN

Terence

[captain]

what a curious piece of film.is that a sort of shorthand
slt? i have often wondered [hoped] that wck could be
shortened,or learn't without having to memorise that
whole set.so,this form then,is a shorter,separate way?

[reneritchie]

Captain - Gulao has very short sets, the Fung family 12 of them with some extensions. Among those sets are Siu Lien Tao (Little First Training) and Dai Lien Tao (Big First Training). Saam Pai Fut is part of the DLT, I believe.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/archives/methods/forms/funggasupyeesansik.html

[captain]

thank you,rene.now that's vey interesting to me.what that
version seems to be saying,is that you can shorten wck,
and yet still "learn" wck.aslong as you incorporate chi-sau
and such.it's the essiential ingredients you need.

and i bet a quicker version is what they teach coppers
and other people who frankly don't want to bother with
the lengthy slt.the sly then,was thought up later on.do
you therefore,really need slt and the other bits?

[Mckind13]

Cap'n

It is by no means a shortened version of Wing Chun.

The art is expressed in X movements but the core methods are still there.

IMO Gu Lao requires one to focus on all the possible variations for each motion as well as looking at all (12/22/40) as a congruent whole.

Also the various san sik are just methods of expressing the same functional model we learn Yip Man Wing Chun.

Thanks David McKinnon

[yuanfen]

captain sez:
and i bet a quicker version is what they teach coppers
and other people who frankly don't want to bother with
the lengthy slt.the sly then,was thought up later on.do
you therefore,really need slt and the other bits?
---------------------------------------------------------
True- why bother if one doesnt want to learn the art?
Most "coppers' dont know much. In the US very short term training in many things- more dependence in communications tech.

On avoiding slt etc-

Like may things- garbage in garbage out.

[Mckind13]

Cap'n

Why the focus/intrest on a short version of WCK?

What is your reason/intent for wanting to learn it that way.

Maybe all you are looking for is a certificate ;) (hehe just kidding)

David

[Phenix]

As the old Chinese saying " with a move shown by an expert, one will recognized it is or is it not".

SLT, CK, BJ, DLT....... points.... all are names. That single move itself shown not the name of how one catagorized his/her curricurum.

As the old Chinese saying " The outsider anticipate the busy party, and the insider anticipate the depth of Kungfu".

A move is a move, but it says alots.
But then, how much moves one has to practice until a move says alots? There is no short cut.


Old Master Fung convicenced me about the authenticity of his art. As for other's who claim to be x or y or original and trying to force others to belive and changing ancestors......
Sorry to say, that doesn't even come close to the surface. IMO.

[Rolling_Hand]

--Old Master Fung convicenced me about the authenticity of his art.--HS

**Wow! that's great....hahaha... Hendrik knows what's the authenticity of Fung's art about.

--As for other's who claim to be x or y or original and trying to force others to belive and changing ancestors......--HS

**So far, you're the only person here keep on telling people that your Emie 12 Zheung is the most original WCK. Again, where are Chum Kiu and Biu Jee forms in your Cho's family? Isn't Hendrik the person who's trying to force others to believe and changing our Shoalin WCK ancestors to something else -Emie???

--Sorry to say, that doesn't even come close to the surface. IMO.--HS

**You are truly realizing the potential within. You become more resolute with each passing day.

[Train]

I have to agree with Rollinghand on this one. How is Emei even related to WCK?? I have seen demonstrations of Emei and i have to say it's far from being WCKF. Can someone explain to me how this could be? Rolling hand raised up some interesting questions and i am curious on the answers. :)

[captain]

hello dave,id like wck,but without the "having" to
remember the slt.which,as far as i can see,is just
a way of putting it all together.it's the chi sau,and
the application [and instruction]that impresses me.

a shorter no nonsense way,if you see.
and a certificate,no,i have enough qualifications!

[yuanfen]

captain- folks will do what they wish. But FWIW IMO and all that jazz:
slt is not justa collection of motions and techniques any more than art ( lets say painting) is a collection of paints and canvas.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


Its good to see some conversation going on about the Koo Lo footage. Master Fung Chun was almost 80 years old when that was shot and he still moves very nicely. Actually, I wish I had that kind of skill and I am 50 years younger than he is. Some questions have come up about learning from an old master or a young teacher. I will use my teachers answer for the same question when my classmate asked him about this topic:

"Would you rather learn from someone with 5 years of teaching and fighting experience or with 40 years of teaching and countess fighting experience? As long as he is healthy and can guide you then the rest is up to you and your training partners anyhow!"

Looking at how Master Fung Chun moves (at the age of 80) I would have no problem training under him. Actually, I wish I had the chance to train under him! Leung Jan was 10 years younger than him when he retired in the village so considerring the quality that I have seen produce within the Koo Lo family I would not doubt the old Wing Chun Wong was still lively and skilled to pass on good WC.

Some of the skills being shown are the root training to the art. These are some of the movements Leung Jan utilized as the core to his teaching as preserved by the Dai Sihing of the village Wong Wah Sam. They are what he felt were the most important aspects of the entire SLT set.


Rolling Hand/Train,


While what Hendrik's provides as research and thoughts on WC eveolution may not be what most would like to hear it does make a lot of sense. First! I am not one of the people who believes in the Shaolin WC story. Looking at the art of WC one may start to wonder how come it shares some characteristics with the other Nam Kuen but also some of the characteristics of the Zhan Zhuang arts. If you read his information you would see that Chum Kiu/Biu Jee elements that you feel are missing are built into his one longer Siu Lin Tao set. Most so-called Shaolin (Mantis/Dragon/White Crane/Whitbrow) starts with some kind of Som Bo Gin type set and works in a 4 corner/3 step type pattern. WC's first set is basically a Standing Pole! Most so-called Shaolin use a harder approach while the WC uses a Yin Body/Method force. Lots can be discussed but try to keep an open mind! Its hard to discard the common/commercial information that has been floating around all the years for a new theory but it may be something that is valuable so???


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Train,

First, with regards to Cho family, as has been repeatedly mentioned, they do have "chum kiu" and "biu jee", they are just all strung together in one much longer set prepended by Siu Lien Tao and appended by another section containing the major cycles (often found in the San Sik of other systems like Sum Nung or Koo Lo).

With regards to Emei, Emei is not a specific system of martial arts but a mountain range (an important one historically), covered with many temples, both Taoist and Buddhist, where many different martial arts have evolved. Among them, from a place called the "Golden Summit Temple", is a system called the Sup Yee Jong (Shi Er Zhuang, Twelve Postures).

Back in the 1970s, Hendrik Santo's sifu, the late Cho Hung-Choi came across the first ever published works on the 12 Postures and was stunned to find that much of their Kuen Kuits matched almost exactly the lines of the WCK Kuen Kuit passed down from Yik Kam of the Red Junk Opera to the Cho family in the late 1800s. First Cho sifu, then Hendrik, have spent the last 30 years researching this connection.

I cannot say personally whether it is true or false, and I would also personally like to understand 12 Postures more before forming an opinion, but it is very telling that Kuen Kuit from Emei's Golden Summit Temple would match so closely WCK Kuen Kuit from Foshan, Guangdong.

If we factor in the times and related history, however, we can see that migration patters had people moving from Fujian, through Guangdong, into Sichuan (where Emei is located) and back. In fact, Ti Xi, founder of the Tian Di Hui (Heaven & Earth Society) followed this same route.

WCK legends speak of snake and crane. Instead of an apocryphal battle between two animals witnessed by a nun, this could possibly help show how the "snake" refered to Sichuan, Emei, 12 Posture, and the "crane" to Fujian, Yongchun (Weng Chun), White Crane (which we know was practiced on the Red Junks but such famous pesonages as Lee Man-Mao, leader of the Opera Performers during the Red Turban Rebellion).

[reneritchie]

Jim,

As usual, very well said!

[t_niehoff]

Jim and Rene -- excellent posts.

Terence

[Geezer]

Rene Wrote>

Back in the 1970s, Hendrik Santo's sifu, the late Cho Hung-Choi came across the first ever published works on the 12 Postures and was stunned to find that much of their Kuen Kuits matched almost exactly the lines of the WCK Kuen Kuit passed down from Yik Kam of the Red Junk Opera to the Cho family in the late 1800s. First Cho sifu, then Hendrik, have spent the last 30 years researching this connection.

I cannot say personally whether it is true or false, and I would also personally like to understand 12 Postures more before forming an opinion, but it is very telling that Kuen Kuit from Emei's Golden Summit Temple would match so closely WCK Kuen Kuit from Foshan, Guangdong.

If we factor in the times and related history, however, we can see that migration patters had people moving from Fujian, through Guangdong, into Sichuan (where Emei is located) and back. In fact, Ti Xi, founder of the Tian Di Hui (Heaven & Earth Society) followed this same route.

WCK legends speak of snake and crane. Instead of an apocryphal battle between two animals witnessed by a nun, this could possibly help show how the "snake" refered to Sichuan, Emei, 12 Posture, and the "crane" to Fujian, Yongchun (Weng Chun), White Crane (which we know was practiced on the Red Junks but such famous pesonages as Lee Man-Mao, leader of the Opera Performers during the Red Turban Rebellion).

Hi Rene,

I'm assuming that your history break is over, and you're now going to post on said subjects.
I noticed the info above which is very enlightnening and was going to ask my old question again,
"When did Grandmaster Cho On take WCK to Penang?"
I'm not trying to hijack this thread and just think this information is relevent to the growth of Cho Family WCK??.

Sheldon;)

[reneritchie]

Hi Sheldon,

Why specifically do you want to know, and how do you see it as relevant to the topic at hand?

[Train]

thanks for the information!! it gives me a little more detail on what the Cho Ga WC is all about. It's cool to hear different theories on WC history. It Seems like Hendrik is saying that Emei is what WCK is evolved from. Do you agree with this Rene? Another question. I know from this thread that Hendrik is researching the Cho Ga WC history. So, i am just wondering, what is his research based on? Did he go to China and learn Emei aswell and compared it with TWC/WCK? What do you guys/gals think about this?

[yuanfen]

On Hendrik's Cho Ga wc:

1. I am very skeptical about havinga clear and consistent history of wc.

2. I see no problem in nibbling away on history and resolving puzzles here and there. That is what I see Hendrik doing. The emei 12 postures that he has traced- some of it looks reasonably like some possible early wc postures. But I dont see the evidence as being complete yet. I have never met him or seen his forms- I hope to do that one of these days.

3. I do share with him a skepticism about wc being descended
only from Fukien shaolin- because as Jim pointed out there are many things in wc that are quite different from most shaolin fists.

4. In looking at wc backwards- from what we know of it today...
wing chun seems to have gone through both a complex absorption of TCMA knowledge and evolution balanced with a shaving away of non essentials.

joy

[desertwingchun2]

Rene Ritchie wrote:
"... but it is very telling that Kuen Kuit from Emei's Golden Summit Temple would match so closely WCK Kuen Kuit from Foshan, Guangdong."

Rene - would you or Hendrick share some of these kuen kuit sometime? It would be interesting to hear the similar as well as some of the not so similar kuen kuit that you speak of.
Who has that book that the late Cho Hung-Choi came across on the 12 Postures? It would be sweet if you could scan some of it and share it with us. Maybe you could scan the kuen kuit and kill two birds with one stone?

-David

[canglong]

On the other hand, we also need to recognize that WCK is a conceptual art, and concepts permit a great deal of flexibility in interpretation/expression (which makes absolute sense as WCK takes the approach of letting the opponent tell us how to defeat him; as each opponent is unique we need a great deal of flexibility to "fit in" with each). It's this flexibility which is WCK's greatest strength and also its greatest weakness. TN


I believe what you refer to as concepts are best described as principles that remain constant no matter how "unique" the opponent. It is when a person has command of these principles that a person can take command of the opponent. Although I do agree that a recognizable weakness in WCK is peoples desire to interject self interpretation or expression when there exist little room for such things of any variance at all.

Rene or Phenix
When you say that the chum kiu and biu ji are incorporated in the SNT/SLT are certain sections refered to using those terms?
thanx for the video that was very interesting.

[stuartm]

Really enjoyed the clip - any more around??

Stuart

[Geezer]

In the mpeg posted by Rene, is Grandmaster Fung Chun missing a thumb???.
Is this something that he had from birth or did it happen later on in his KF??.


Sheldon;)

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Geezer & Stuart,


Master Fung Chun is a herbalist and bone-setter. He ran a clinic most of his life. As a kid he used to work work in a snake shop and on a few occassions he got a lethal bite. Fortunately he was lucky enough to know the formula to heal these bites but one day he got a bite by a very lethal snake and was rushed to the hospital. They had to chop his finger off to save his life. His nephew told me that many people thought he was not going to make it and many people visited him in the hospital but as you can see he made it.

There is no other public Koo Lo footage out there but I noticed you live in the UK. Wales? One of my best people/brothers lives and traines in Wales. He is actually coming here this week to train and continue the learning.


Regards,

[Geezer]

Jim R Wrote>

They had to chop his finger off to save his life. His nephew told me that many people thought he was not going to make it and many people visited him in the hospital but as you can see he made it.

Wow....I thought I was seeing things at first or not:)thats' pretty wild, do you know if it had any great affect on his skill or if he just took it in his stride??.

Thanks for sharing Jim.

Sheldon;)

[t_niehoff]

canglong writes:

On the other hand, we also need to recognize that WCK is a conceptual art, and concepts permit a great deal of flexibility in interpretation/expression (which makes absolute sense as WCK takes the approach of letting the opponent tell us how to defeat him; as each opponent is unique we need a great deal of flexibility to "fit in" with each). It's this flexibility which is WCK's greatest strength and also its greatest weakness. TN


I believe what you refer to as concepts are best described as principles that remain constant no matter how "unique" the opponent. C

I agree that the "principles" remain constant. But if the expression and application of these principles were not adaptable (and dependent on the opponent) then we'd do the same thing regardless of what the opponent does. That's simply not the case (and I'm glad it's not -- our method would be very mechanical). TN

It is when a person has command of these principles that a person can take command of the opponent. C

It's not that simple, unfortunately. There is no level where one has "command of these principles" and then can control an opponent. Instead, our skill depends on how well we understand and can use these things *in relation to our opponent.* This is easily observable: we can all make what we do work against some persons and not others. If you have doubt, then have your sifu, whoever he is, try it against Rickson. TN

Although I do agree that a recognizable weakness in WCK is peoples desire to interject self interpretation or expression when there exist little room for such things of any variance at all. C

Self-interpretation and expression is at the very core of applying WCK; if you are trying to fight like your sifu, then your WCK is dead (like Joe Frazier's students trying to fight like Joe Frazier and Mohammed Ali's students trying to fight like Ali instead of focusing on becoming the best boxers they can be; the individual and his/her individual talents, limitations, etc. must be taken into consideration to fully develop). TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Train - Hendrik is Chinese (I believe Fujianese?). He was born in Indonesia, and if you're familiar with the history, you'll understand why he has the name he does. My understanding of what Hendrik is saying is that WCK evolved from both Sichuan, Emei 12 Postures and Fujian, Yongchun, White Crane. That the engine of the former was combined with the movements of the latter, explaining why WCK has similar movements to other Fujian systems transplanted to Guangdong, but different underlying methodology (ways of moving and generating power).

I believe Hendrik makes one of the more compelling, well researched, and plausible cases for WCK development, but as I said, I need to understand 12 Postures more before I can 'believe' the story (as opposed to one, for example, where White Crane was melded with Hakka instead).

Hendrik does study the 12 postures on their own as well, and he's tried to explain it to me several times, but I'm not knowledgeable enough in TCM or related fields to really understand what is a very detailed methodology.

Joy - Well said.

David - Hendrik has been working on a book for a long time that would provide the Cho Kuen Kuit, the Sup Yee Jong Kuen Kuit, and White Crane Kuen Kuit that matches, in both the original Chinese and translated into English. Since he works for a living, and its a *huge* job (he's shown me his work in progress), I have no idea how long it will take. As you may have noticed, he also goes through bursts of activity and inactivity, but I'm hoping he finishes it eventually and chooses to share it with everyone (though I don't think the constant personal attacks help motivate him much).

I believe there may be a couple books on Emei Twelve Postures out now. Check local Chinese book shops. I think you'd need to know Chinese to get much out of them, though, as its the method he's primarily referring to, not just the postures.

Jim - Snake hunting/handling was a deadly occupation. Thank god Fung sifu made it through.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Sheldon,



As far as I know it really had no effect on his skill. Actually, Fung Chun is regarded as one of the best of Wong Wah Sam's disciples. Another top master from his class would be Fung Min. I have hear lots of good things about him. If you were to visit Koo Lo (and if you were lucky enough to even find the WC there) you would probally be pointed in his direction as he is the head master of the village I am told. The top fighter in the village is Fung Dat. Fung Dat's reputation is well know in the Koo Lo family. My sigung was also considered to be on Fung Dat's level. They were the two best fighters. Fung Dat stayed in Koo Lo where as Sigung Fung Chiu moved to Hong Kong. Unfortunately, Sigung passed away! :-( He had cancer.


Regards,

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Rene,


Fung Chun was indeed lucky to make it with just the loss of a finger! Its kind of funny about his time in the hospital! While he was there many of the Koo Lo family came to visit and pay respects to him. Nobody was sure if he was going to make it or not. A lot of traffic caused a lot of questions with the staff. Fung Ming told me that they do not like a lot of publicity so when asked who this person was taht was recieving all these visits they just told people he had a big family with a lot of sons!


:D


Respect to Si Tai Gung Fung Chun!


Regards,

[desertwingchun2]

Rene Ritchie wrote:
"David - Hendrik has been working on a book for a long time that would provide the Cho Kuen Kuit, the Sup Yee Jong Kuen Kuit, and White Crane Kuen Kuit that matches, in both the original Chinese and translated into English. Since he works for a living, and its a *huge* job (he's shown me his work in progress), I have no idea how long it will take. As you may have noticed, he also goes through bursts of activity and inactivity, but I'm hoping he finishes it eventually and chooses to share it with everyone (though I don't think the constant personal attacks help motivate him much).

Um ... so does that mean that the kuen kuit from the original book that the late Cho Hung-Choi came across on the 12 Postures aren't going to be scanned and shared anytime soon?

I believe there may be a couple books on Emei Twelve Postures out now. Check local Chinese book shops. I think you'd need to know Chinese to get much out of them, though, as its the method he's primarily referring to, not just the postures."

I'm sure there are. But I don't know chinese and like you said I probably wouldn't get much from them. That's why I was asking if you guys would share. Are copies of the text you referenced still available? You mentioned published so I'm assuming more than one copy exists. (yes, I do know what happens when one assumes!)

Does Hendrick have the same first ever published works on the 12 Postures as the late Cho Hung-Choi?

-David

[reneritchie]

Hi David,

"Um ... so does that mean that the kuen kuit from the original book that the late Cho Hung-Choi came across on the 12 Postures aren't going to be scanned and shared anytime soon?"

Er... no, it means you can go to a Chinese bookstore and probably by the 12 Postures book, and maybe 1 or 2 others on the same subject.

"I'm sure there are. But I don't know chinese and like you said I probably wouldn't get much from them. That's why I was asking if you guys would share."

Sorry, I'm probably not communicating well. If Hendrik scanned the book, it would still be in Chinese, same as if you got it from the Chinese bookstore.

"Are copies of the text you referenced still available?"

I believe so, but I haven't checked lately.

"You mentioned published so I'm assuming more than one copy exists. (yes, I do know what happens when one assumes!)"

Several people had copies when I mentioned it to them, so I'm assuming (same danger) it was published fairly widely (at least in the Chinese MA book sense).

"Does Hendrick have the same first ever published works on the 12 Postures as the late Cho Hung-Choi?"

Yes, and as I said, others have it as well.

[desertwingchun2]

Hey Rene,

Sorry, I'm probably not communicating well. If Hendrik scanned the book, it would still be in Chinese, same as if you got it from the Chinese bookstore. -RR

Communication works two ways. I assumed (I know) since Hendrick has been working on this for a long time he would have some translations to english. I was interested in hearing them if he had.

Well, you did mention "some" books were available but not the "same" book. So now I gotta ask - whats the name of the book? Any ISBN number? Who knows maybe some day I'll learn Chinese and read it myself. :)

-David

[reneritchie]

Hi David,

He translates them time to time as he speaks (or as he writes here), but all the writing I saw from his notes was in Chinese (as he's mentioned English is his 4th language, so perhaps that stands to reason).

I don't recall the name of the book. It might have simply been Shi Er Zhuang (in Chinese characters) or Emei Shi Er Zhuang. I don't have an ISBN, but maybe someone on one of the Internal or the general forums knows about it.

[canglong]

Self-interpretation and expression is at the very core of applying WCK; --TN

Just trying to point out the natural progression of things since if you don't understand the principles of WCK you will not be able to acquire the necessary skill to aplly them with or without any self expression.
At what point does self expression supersede fundamental principle?

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by canglong
Self-interpretation and expression is at the very core of applying WCK; --TN

... if you don't understand the principles of WCK you will not be able to acquire the necessary skill to aplly them with or without any self expression.
At what point does self expression supersede fundamental principle? - TJ

Tony its funny you wrote this at this particular moment in time. On another forum one of the most active members posted something very similar almost simultaneously.

To paraphrase he said - The principles define WC as much as the concepts. The concepts cannot be expressed any way one sees fit. This is due to the technical parameters of WCK.

IMO principles and concepts are at the core of and govern WCK. When someone goes outside those parameters one ceases playing WCK. Don't get me wrong, it may be effective. But, at that moment, when the principles and concepts are violated it is no longer WCK.

-David

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Maybe this is a good way to start a new topic. Since the Leung Jan WC seems to be turning into this topic! We might as well allow for that to have its own place to blossom!

Second. The last post is on the money IMO. Thats why I would like to hear others thoughts?


Regards,

[t_niehoff]

Jim Roselando wrote:

Since the Leung Jan WC seems to be turning into this topic! We might as well allow for that to have its own place to blossom! JR

I think it is advisible that we define what we mean by so-and-so's WCK (whether Leung Jan or someone else). For me, it means that so-and-so took or has taken a particular approach toward training (forms, drills, etc.) and that folks have adopted that particular approach (thus becoming a "lineage") and has nothing to do with individual application (which I think should transcend lineage). TN

----------------

desertwingchun2 wrote:

IMO principles and concepts are at the core of and govern WCK. When someone goes outside those parameters one ceases playing WCK. Don't get me wrong, it may be effective. But, at that moment, when the principles and concepts are violated it is no longer WCK. DW2

Yes and no, IMO. As I presently see it, the concepts and principles are not rules written in stone that one must strictly adhere to but rather are guidelines that generally best enable us to fight with WCK's approach (hence their value); and as with all guidelines, there are exceptions and situations where "breaking the rules" is the best thing to do. TN

Terence

[Train]

(Yes and no, IMO. As I presently see it, the concepts and principles are not rules written in stone that one must strictly adhere to but rather are guidelines that generally best enable us to fight with WCK's approach (hence their value); and as with all guidelines, there are exceptions and situations where "breaking the rules" is the best thing to do. TN)

I disagree with you on this one. IMO, it really depends on with wing chun lineage you are coming from. I agree with DesertWC2. If one goes outside the concept of WCK, it's not WC. It's called JKD :) or MMA.

[reneritchie]

I'm a big supporter of people being bound to the name WCK as much as possible, and to rigidly defining it to the maximum possible. I would also prefer if people train to be good at what they narrowly define as WCK, rather than to be good at MA or fighting. Yes to dogma, yes to doctrine. In general, anything that restricts them I'm all for, and anything that lets them transcend, I'm very much against. Bg no to nature. Big no to the human spirit. This way, if they ever try to mug me, I won't have to worry as much 8P

[t_niehoff]

Hi Train,

Train writes:

. . . it really depends on with wing chun lineage you are coming from. T

WCK is WCK. Deference to "lineage" (from whom you consider that your WCK descends) is IME (and I've seen most major lineages) for the most part BS, marketing, or ignorance ("I can't do it but my lineage can and no one else!") -- there is no Leung Jan punch (or anything else), Sum Nung punch, Yip Man punch, etc., there is only WCK's jik chung choi and how well -- our power, timing, speed, etc. -- we, as an individual, can actually do it. One's immediate teacher is of course most important because if they can do it then they can help you find it for yourself (not give it to you), and if they can't do it they can't help you. But in the end it all comes down to whether or not you can develop skill and make it functional -- and this does not depend on lineage. Lineage is simply someone's training approach (a means to impart skills); it is we that either bring it alive, make it functional, or don't. Wong Shueng Leung knew what he was talking about when he said, "don't be a slave to WCK -- and I'd add "or lineage" -- make it work for you." TN

Terence

[reneritchie]

Well, there are different methods of executing Chung Choi. Some may snap their wrist prior to contact, some after contact, some not at all. Some may drill into the punch, some straight pound. Some may move the elbow onto the meridian line, some live it at mid-clavicular. Some may extend fully, others only part way. Some may throw the punch, other drive it. Some may use the arm in isolation, others as the nail for the body, and so on and so forth.

What is midly amusing about WCK is that people seem to pick and stick with whatever version they're told to, rather than going through the process of discovering what works best for their body an nature.

While people joke about MMA and JKD, they do (sometimes ;) ) have a refreshing lack of pretension and seem to better understand it's not the method which is right or wrong, but the range of methods which can be correct under any given circumstance within the context. (Though I would love, for shaddenfreuda (sp?) sake, to see "Hey, BTT, don't use that Americana set up Rickson showed us, we use only the Carlson settup of our lineage...")

Lineage is only the journey towards the goal of application skill. Concentrate too much on the lineage, you lose sight of the goal. And as with any journey, if you refuse to adapt to conditions, you may well fall into a sinkhole, or walk into a newly fallen tree.

[t_niehoff]

Hi Rene,

RR wrote:

. . . there are different methods of executing Chung Choi. RR

Yes, indeed -- there are many variations of how to do it within WCK. My point, which I did not make clear, is that any certain variation is not "owned" by any lineage, even if a particular person adopts a specific one as their personal choice. If Joe Frazier taught "boxing", it doesn't mean he "owns" the bob-and-weave or that he should exclude stick-and-move (as not being "Joe Frazier" lineage); I can go to the Ali school and should be able to use bob-and-weave too, if it suits me. Boxing is boxing and WCK is WCK. Lineage ("I learned boxing from Joe Frazier!") shouldn't matter in how *I* box or fight. TN

What is midly amusing about WCK is that people seem to pick and stick with whatever version they're told to, rather than going through the process of discovering what works best for their body an nature. RR

Good point, and that's part of what I'm getting at when I say that if you "look" like your sifu, then you're probably doing dead WCK. WCK should teach us how to become the best fighters we can be using both "the system" and what we bring to the table (building on that) to develop fighting skills -- not to copy a good fighter. TN

While people joke about MMA and JKD, they do (sometimes ) have a refreshing lack of pretension and seem to better understand it's not the method which is right or wrong, but the range of methods which can be correct under any given circumstance within the context. RR

IMO this is one of the distinquishing features of a true fighter (as opposed to someone that "practices" a MA) -- they are interested, out of necessity, in becoming a better fighter (increased performance), and will not replicating dogma. TN

Terence

[kj]

One of the most successful patterns of learning virtually anything is to find others who have been successful in the past and leverage their process of learning. This is true whether it is piano, golf, business or martial arts.

It is therefore reasonable to research and pursue learning from those individuals and/or family groups who can closely share the approach utilized toward prior success in what one wishes to learn. This is no less true in martial arts, than it is for other things.

This pursuit may indeed lead some of us to choose study under one lineage or another, while others may choose an eclectic approach. Either choice has its own benefits and risks. The desire of tapping into past successes, even if it happens to be centered around learning in a fashion consistent with a particular lineage, seems quite peaceable with assertions that we should desire to learn from those who we believe can actually demonstrate the performance we seek, as long as we have done our homework well.

As always, caveat emptor.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Terence,


Jim Roselando wrote:

Since the Leung Jan WC seems to be turning into this topic! We might as well allow for that to have its own place to blossom! JR

I think it is advisible that we define what we mean by so-and-so's WCK (whether Leung Jan or someone else). For me, it means that so-and-so took or has taken a particular approach toward training (forms, drills, etc.) and that folks have adopted that particular approach (thus becoming a "lineage") and has nothing to do with individual application (which I think should transcend lineage). TN


I really dont feel like going back down this path. There are times when there will be a lineage similarity discussion and the whole point of this topic was originally to show how "scary" Master Fung Chun's preservation and movement was to Sum Nung's WC and Cho Ga WC. So, while I know you do not like discussing this sort of thing as it seems to bother you since you emmediately posted after Rene's starting of this topic "I dont know why you are making the point but", it will come up from time to time and it is possible to get a some what good idea as to what LJ's WC was like. I also understand that being functional in application with your skill is the ultimate goal. Application was not the topic at hand for this discussion. Hence the reason I said lets start another discussion as this one was going down a different road.


Regards,

[captain]

1,does the wck in that clip also have chi sau?
2,did i read correctly they have a branch in
wales?
3,lets ALL go to china and clear up all these grey
areas once and for all.even terrybaby.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


1,does the wck in that clip also have chi sau?

Yes and no! Yes it showed one of the Chi Sao platforms (the first one Leung Jan taught in his progression) the no is for those who think what they are doing is a representative of how we really stick hands. It looked like a couple of beginners having a struggling match trying to show off in front of the Grandmaster. Horrible. We do not make use of Luk Sao.

2,did i read correctly they have a branch in
wales?

Yes and he is actually coming here tomorrow to stay for a while and train. I do not think he has desire to teach at the moment but if you have interest you can e-mail me off-list for info..

3,lets ALL go to china and clear up all these grey
areas once and for all.even terrybaby.

There really isnt any Grey areas and no need to travel there to clear anything up. There is enough of us here that a trip would not be needed but it would be fun! I am planning on going next year if all goes well!


Regards,

[reneritchie]

Hi KJ,

You make some excellent points, the only thing I'll add, which we've discussed before, is that doing what a great person does is different from doing literally what a great person did to become great, is different from doing conceptually what a great person did to become great.

In the end, I'm a firm believe that someone higher up the path can yell down helpful advice, but if we try to climb too high in their shoes, we will last only as long as we can stand the blisters.

Hi Terence,

I understand what you're getting at, but in the end, you have two (at least) kinds of martial artists. You have preservers/collectors who want to duplicate as exactly as possible the process of someone who came before, and you have the appliers/utilizers who want results. Sometimes the two intersect (and there are others, like hobbyists who simply enjoy for enjoyments sake), but I'm not sure its often.

Most people who achieve greatness seem to do it through their own uniqueness, even if they studied other great people of the past. It seems equal parts insight and audacity at times. YMWCK, SNWCK, GLWCK, these are among the best known, more *proven* effective branches of the art and they are known for *individuals* who established something innovative in their own right, not just duplications of what came before. They made their own names, and left their own marks, and gave back as much as they were given. Of course, they had tremendous foundations before hand, but like caligraphy or any excellence, once one or two established methods are mastered, you are expected to realize your own.

But, as I said before, to each their own, and I'm all for what makes those eaches less able to mug me in the end!

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
In the end, I'm a firm believe that someone higher up the path can yell down helpful advice, but if we try to climb too high in their shoes, we will last only as long as we can stand the blisters.

I follow. Not only that, but even the master of masters (if there is such a thing) cannot walk the path for us. They can at best point the way, but we must each walk it for ourselves.


Most people who achieve greatness seem to do it through their own uniqueness, even if they studied other great people of the past.

I completely agree with this.

I don't for a moment believe that lineage ensures quality. I also don't believe that forsaking lineage ensures quality. Whatever models and goals we choose, our ultimate achievement depends on us as individuals. What we bring to the mix matters. How carefully we choose or follow an approach to learning is one of the many things we ourselves bring to the mix.

Darn conversation and how it always hijacks threads. ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[reneritchie]

Hi KJ,

We're bumping into each other on this page of sameness!

"Darn conversation and how it always hijacks threads."

Ya, don't want Jim to lay the Gulao Smackdown on me, so I'll shift over to th'other thread.

[Jim Roselando]

RR and KJ,


Well said!


Its up to us! The past can only be used as a guide for us. Nobody can achieve skill for us but us. Nobody wants to be carbon copies or robots. WC is a principle based art with certain guidelines to help us fight with safety. We should do our best to learn them, internalize them, master them and freely apply them. I am one who believes in WC and believes WC was developed for a reason. I do my best to study it, train it, fight with it. Oh yeah! And little by little improve what I do!

On the other point about the truly greats being inovating etc.. While the platforms may have changed or developed a bit over time, how much of the core art really did change by those greats? I kind of thought the basic of this thread was to show how closely related the greats/preservations really are/were?


Gotta run,

[Jim Roselando]

Hey Richster!


Here comes the Big Pin Sun Jeung Smackdown!

hehehe

:D


I did notice the other thread started its own life so we are on the way!


Greetz,

[reneritchie]

"On the other point about the truly greats being inovating etc.. While the platforms may have changed or developed a bit over time, how much of the core art really did change by those greats? I kind of thought the basic of this thread was to show how closely related the greats/preservations really are/were?"

See my point on calligraphy. The core is nothing without realization, realization nothing without the core. There's no duality.

[Jim Roselando]

RR,


Ok! Good stuff. Totally agree! Must have read too quickly.


Peace,

[Shadowboxer]

When I was studying jazz an Improv teacher use to always say,
"Imitation, assimilation, innovation."

[kj]

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
When I was studying jazz an Improv teacher use to always say,
"Imitation, assimilation, innovation."

Is it safe to presume he was implying an appropriate sequence? (I know what I would assUme in this regard, but you know what happens when one relies too much on assUmptions, LOL; even about the seemingly obvious.)
- kj

[t_niehoff]

Hi Rene,

Rene Ritchie wrote:

I understand what you're getting at, but in the end, you have two (at least) kinds of martial artists. You have preservers/collectors who want to duplicate as exactly as possible the process of someone who came before, and you have the appliers/utilizers who want results. Sometimes the two intersect (and there are others, like hobbyists who simply enjoy for enjoyments sake), but I'm not sure its often. RR

I see the distinction but IMO there is no such thing as preserving or collecting a particular person's WCK (except on video, perhaps) -- it can't be done (like stepping on the same piece of water twice). We can try to exactly mimic form choreography, repeat exactly things said to us, etc. but that is not the marrow, it is the skin. Hawkins Cheung once wrote that "Yip Man tried to get each student to make the system his own." Now, of course, folks market their WCK as being a duplicate of how so-and-so, including Yip, taught them. Did they miss the point of Yip's teaching? For me, when I hear someone say they do "so-and-so's WCK" it means one of two things: either they have never made the system their own or that they are using their association to somehow bolster their reputation or purse (i.e., marketing). When two senior students came to Yip, each with a different way of doing tan sao in their SNT, Yip told each one that they were doing it correctly. So which tan sao represents "correct" YMWCK? ;) Whose form do we mimic? Today, no doubt, each proudly tells their students, "I'm doing it how Yip Man taught me!" Yip knew that WCK is not about copying how he did things -- it is about understanding the essence. Then, one can express that essence any number of ways. TN

Terence

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Terence,

I think you make a great point, but I also think your taking things too serious. Part of wing chun and any martial art are teh tools or techniques. These are the tangible part the we all learn. We all learn the forms or san sik. I don't think we have any issues there. But then we need to learn HOW to use them before we can internalize them. Take any art or science, you have to learn to copy before we can fully grasp something. A painter learns to draw shapes a certain way. Colors a specific way. Spatial awarness a certain way. Then if your good you can move on into the freedom of what you learn. Maybe you want to challenge the ideas of colors, but you need to understand the color the correct way. Same holds true for wing chun.

We need a method to transmit wing chun or else it will die. We package it up and the teacher teaches from his perspective. He may give a precise answer to a certain technique. Is that right or wrong? Depends on context. In the end, we must learn to free ourselves up and apply wing chun in a complete freeform manner rather than prelearned patterns. But I think that may be part of the stepping stone.

It is funny that one gets criticized for being too much like ones teacher, and for verying off too far. LOL. But if your teacher is actually doing wing chun, then one should be mimicing him. Atleast for a while. It would be odd for a painter to be studying the style of Rapheal but actualy painting modernism. Aristotle of course learned from Plato, who in turn learned from Socrates. They were good students and understood their teachers. But after they learned, they broke ground in their own individual way. Or as some put it, you gotta know the rules before you can break them.

Just some thoughts
Tom
________
Full melt hash (http://trichomes.org/hashish/full-melt-hash)