Belt Systems

[Jotun]

again thanks to those who read and/or responded to my last thread about knees

belt systems have probably been over discussed here, whether they are good or bad whatever. however for those who train in styles that incorporates a belting system, i am curious to know what a student must know to achieve the next level. how many belts are there? how many approximate hours did one need to pass a test? how many forms/katas/ and techniques were needed?

thanks for the replies

[SevenStar]

In bjj, it's based on your improvement, for lack of a better way to say it right now. For instance, a white belt wouldn't even be considered for a blue until he can hang with and go head up with the blue belts. If that takes you two years, then guess what? you will get it in two years when that's been accomplished. I like this method, as it ensures that you actually know how to apply what you are learning.

In judo, it's based on several things - it varies from state to state I believe, but the guidelines are likely about the same. There's a point system - you get points for going to class, you get points for competing - when competing, you get more points if you beat someone of a higher rank than you. Also, you have certain techniques that are required knowledge for certain belt levels. If you've fulfilled all of the requirements and your instructor feels you deserve it, you may test. The above rules apply up through brown belt. to get your black belt, you have to test in front of the state judo board, and they have to deem you as deserving of a black belt. I like this method also, but like the way we do it in bjj better.


When I was in longfist, it was like it was when I was in karate. There are set techniques/principles/forms that you must know, and as you progress, you have to demonstrate your competency at applying them. I like this method least of the three mentioned.

[Surferdude]

Well in my dojo theres only white belts and black belts....
Well only colors in the kiddy class :D I have to know all of my kata(forms) and kihon(basics) to become a black belt...in kihon you have to know all of the stances, punches, strikes and, kicks.
:D

[NorthernMantis]

In my oppinion belts should remain where they originated- with the Japanese styles and not in Chinese ones.

I got nothing againt's Japanese martial arts but this is how I feel. The reason why belt rankings bother me is that :

1)In the History of China all people wore sashes wether they knew martial arts or not. It was just clothing people! To hold up your pants! Like todays fashion sashes came in all different colors and in different adornments. If some old man was wearing a yellow sash it didn't mean that he just started martial arts. The man just owre it because he thought it looked good.

2)People think that color of raqnking=skill which is so wrong.

Who cares what belt color you are. Can you use your style? Why do people say where you are at? How do you know where you are at? Why would it matter? There is no such things. We are all learning always it's non stop. Does anyone know how long it would take to learn everything in my style let alone master it? It's ludicrous.

[Laughing Cow]

Jotun.

Thee is NO standardised Belt ranking system.
It started off with only 2 Belts 100+ yrs ago and went ballistic from there.

Each style and often school will assign their own belt ranks as they see fit.
Thus the colour of your belt can only be taken in regard with other students at your school.

A black belt in one style might be a brown, blue or purple in another.

Most of the times I have seen them tied to which and how many techniques you can perform and understand.
Many of the JMA test requirements also include essays and similar.

Cheers.

[Sho]

My personal opinion on this would be, that even though, sashes don't necessarily show the actual skill of a practitioner, it sets a hierarchy within the school. It becomes very handy especially when the school's practitioner count increases, because then it becomes very difficult to be aware of everyone's progress. Therefore, a ranking system can serve as a good way to keep track of the technique competency of individual students. The instructor doesn't necessarily need to ask students whether they already know the technique or not. The instructor can also divide students into different groups so that they can practice techniques that suit their sash ranks. So, I believe sash ranks are beneficial in maintaining a hierarchial structure that is based on students' theoretical knowledge, but not in measuring one's actual fighting skills.

[Oso]

It's up to the instructor to keep the whole thing in check and not blown out of proportion. I agree w/ Sho's commentary. I tell my adult students that it is mostly a method to arrange the curriculum. However, in a kids class it helps to create tangible goals. I know there are people out there that don't think teaching kids is worthwhile but think about all the stories you hear about the old masters being taught in family since they were very young. Where else are the new masters going to come from but the very young of today. If it takes the excitement of a new colored belt to keep a kid training then I don't feel that it is selling out at all. As the kids get older you just have to make sure that they grow to understand that it's not about the belt.

[bystander]

traditional chinese kung fu is called traditional for a reason, that is they follow tradition, no belts, only sifu wears a red sash

[Kinjit]

BJJ's ranking system is great.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by bystander
traditional chinese kung fu is called traditional for a reason, that is they follow tradition, no belts, only sifu wears a red sash

My Sifu doesn't even use a red sash.

He is dressed like the students tracksuit & T-shirt.

:) :)

[Serpent]

BJJ (ranking) is superior.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by bystander
traditional chinese kung fu is called traditional for a reason, that is they follow tradition, no belts, only sifu wears a red sash

:rolleyes:

There is no fixed rule. Don't post as if you're posting the law for all CMA.

Some traditional styles have adopted ranking systems for various reasons, others have no ranking sytem at all. Even within a single style, different schools, especially in different countries, can use different systems. In the long run, as long as they're teaching the true system, who cares how they choose to denote it?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by NorthernMantis
In my oppinion belts should remain where they originated- with the Japanese styles and not in Chinese ones.

I got nothing againt's Japanese martial arts but this is how I feel. The reason why belt rankings bother me is that :

1)In the History of China all people wore sashes wether they knew martial arts or not. It was just clothing people! To hold up your pants! Like todays fashion sashes came in all different colors and in different adornments. If some old man was wearing a yellow sash it didn't mean that he just started martial arts. The man just owre it because he thought it looked good.

Remember, this isn't ancient China, it's modern *insert country here* People like to feel that they have accomplished something. Who cares if it's a belt system that gives them that?



2)People think that color of raqnking=skill which is so wrong.

Who cares what belt color you are. Can you use your style?

It doesn't have to be wrong - blame that on the instructor

Why do people say where you are at? How do you know where you are at? Why would it matter? There is no such things. We are all learning always it's non stop. Does anyone know how long it would take to learn everything in my style let alone master it? It's ludicrous.

there is a such thing. the learning is nonstop, but there are different levels regardless.

[Robinf]

Thanks, Sevenstar, for your thoughtful approach in answering.

Belt ranking generally goes with level of knowledge and spirit. Skill levels come in all sizes along with the people who attend. There will always be differences in skill levels. As different as the people who take the classes.

Point: One of our older students has arthritis in his hips and will never be able to do a full split (a skill of black belt level). Does this mean he shouldn't be a black belt? He has the knowledge, he's able to teach it well, and he spars well. We all have our srengths and weaknesses.

Since schools deal with the public at large, it is helpful, sometimes, to give the public what they're looking for. Some folks are hobbiests and like incentives--going for belts. Does this mean that the training will be watered down? No! Those who want to train hard and seriously still will and will get the sashes, or belts, that go along with their level of knowledge. This way, you can please the hobbiests and keep the school open, as there are more hobbiests than serious students, and the serous students wear but ignore the sash--they just keep training and never ask when the next test is or how long it takes until black belt.

Robin

[apoweyn]

Poor Jotun asked a very specific question. And so far, only Sevenstar and Surferdude seem to have actually answered it. He specifically didn't ask for people's opinions on whether belt ranking is a good thing. He acknowledged that it's a controversial topic and then asked for those of you who use a belt ranking system, how does it work.


Stuart B.

[Chang Style Novice]

I've devised a rather unconventional belt system that doesn't rely on colors, or rank anything like seniority or skill level. Instead, I use a numerical ranking of notches and inches to determine an individual's waist size.

For instance, a 46" belt with only one notch indicates you should give up beer and fatty foods. On the other hand, a 30" belt with nine notches means you probably should seek treatment for anorexia nervosa.

[Oso]

I think most people wouldn't respond with the specifics you asked for Jotun, for fear of the cr ap that would get slung at them.

but here goes,

I use 10 steps each denoted by a sash color.

white;yellow;orange;purple;green;blue;brown;brown1 ;brown2;black

I have 8 hand forms and 10 weapon forms worked in there with basically a hand form and weapon form at each level except the brown1 and brown2 have no hand forms and the time is spent delving deeper into all of the previous forms for application.

I roughyl divide the groups into

beginners (wht, yel, org)
intermediate (pur, grn, blu)
and advanced.

I tell students that it is a minimum of 6 months of time devoted to each level but that it could take longer depending on the amount of time spent outside of class training. So, 5 years minimum to a black sash. A black sash is not a sifu. I feel that takes at least 5 more years after the first black sash is earned.

I hope it answers your question.

[apoweyn]

Good man, Oso.

:)


Stuart B.

p.s. If I had a belt ranking system, I'd answer. But it's been about a decade since I was in one. So...

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
I've devised a rather unconventional belt system that doesn't rely on colors, or rank anything like seniority or skill level. Instead, I use a numerical ranking of notches and inches to determine an individual's waist size.

For instance, a 46" belt with only one notch indicates you should give up beer and fatty foods. On the other hand, a 30" belt with nine notches means you probably should seek treatment for anorexia nervosa.

LOL

[Stryder]

Our school uses a three belt system, white, red, black except for the kids class where there are more belt colors to give them something to strive for. The big question I think though is are you required to pay for grading tests.

(I'm using Tae-Kwon-Do as an example only!) The school I use to go to when I was younger had 11 belts.

White
White/yellow stripe
Yellow
Yellow/green stripe
Green
Green/blue stripe
Blue
Blue/Red stripe
Red
Red/black stripe
Black
then varying degrees of black

My problem with this was that every three months a grading test took place and everyone was encouraged to try. Each grading test until black was $35.00 a test then $5.00 for your belt if you pass. I looked at this as a money grab more than anything and I think it wrong. I went quickly to my Green belt then stayed there for a year not wanting to grade and I was not looked upon favorible by my instructor.

My Kung-Fu Club on the other hand even for the kids, the sifu's look at what you know and decide if you are ready for the next level if you are you are rewarded with the next color if not... keep working. No charges no costs except for the sash $5.00.

my two cents

Brad

[Robinf]

In our Taekwondo:

White
Yellow
Orange
Green
Purple
Blue
Red
Brown (first, second then third tip)
Black, 1st dan, 2nd dan, up to 9th dan

These rankings require a minimum time and knowledge. The first three ranks are generally quick and have only a few forms and combinations--solid basics.

After that, it takes more time, the combinations become more complex along with the techniques, etc.

There are belt-color combinations for each belt, so people understand what techniques they are required to practice and be able to perform at their level--anything advanced they learn is just a bonus.

In the black belt range, the first three degrees, your sparring, patterns, and breaking ability are tested. For each degree, you have to be able to break that many thickness in boards (1st dan breaks single boards, 2nd dan breaks 2 boards thick, etc.) This is mandated by the World Taekwondo Federation.

The second three degrees (4th, 5th, and 6th) test more so your teaching abilities--along side sparring and breaking, but there are fewer breaks required, and sparring time is shortened.

I don't know about the tests for the last three degrees. I haven't been told and I'm not interested enough to ask. I'll get there when I get there.

Kung fu is different. The sashes are the same colors as the belts above, but there are no combinations.

There are groupings of forms, not necessarily one before the next, but the particular grouping needs to be known prior to the test. Some forms go in a certain order following each other, but there are other forms that fit in but when the student is ready for it.

The time between sashes is longer than TKD because there is more material and it's a bit more complex.

Robin

[MonkeySlap Too]

Recently, my students revolted, and I was forced to use a ranking system. Shuai Chiao, which is a Chinese system, has had some form of belt ranking for a while now. Even within the organization I belong to (ACSCA) there is wide variance from school to school as to what each rank requires, only standardizing at the black belt level.

In my little club, you need to demonstrate specific skills, how to train them, and a little philosophy for each rank. You also must demonstrate those skills and attributes in free fighting. For instance, a recent green belt testee was required to demonstrate all of his training to date, then the next day take part in free-fighting until he successfully demonstrated an understanding of his skill level. This included three-minute rounds and 10 second pressure cooker rounds. His opponents included a range of fighters, includeing people not from my school - to better test the understanding.

While this method does limit the size of my club, it gaurentees a certain quality in the teaching. I had gotten away from this for a while, and now I deeply regret it. Ranking and testing when applied to a truly acheived skill creates a real value for the student.


BTW - Royce would choke out your ranking system.

[Chang Style Novice]

Stryder

Wow - I would hardly call $35 a test a money grab. The instructor's time is worth something. Testing is time that you are taking advantage of the instructor's expertise. I would expect that this occurs outside of class, in which case it might almost be considered a private instruction session. $5 for the belt itself also seems reasonable - the school has to buy them, probably at a cost very close to that. At that level of cost, it just seems to me like the school is covering the extra expenses of testing.

That's not to say that some schools haven't abused the idea of paying for your test. We've all heard the stories.

[Oso]

good info on the sparring segments of the test cycle

my students progression in sparring is something like this:

white and yellow: 2 man drills only, no free sparring the drills at yellow are more complicated.

orange; purple: full speed light contact sparring. must show applied understanding of what has been presented to them.
no pads are used in adult class. under 18 must wear headgear.
Under 16 must use hand, foot pads as well as head gear and chest protection.


blue; green: full speed medium to medium hard contact. Pads are used for part of the test for harder contact and pads are not used for part of the test to allow for better chin na techniques.

brown to black: full speed and up to full contact with and w/o pads. chest and head protection are at the discretion of those over 18.

weapon sparring works similar with both padded weapons and non padded weapons. short stick and staff only below black sash.

[Stryder]

Chang Style Novice

(Wow - I would hardly call $35 a test a money grab. The instructor's time is worth something. Testing is time that you are taking advantage of the instructor's expertise. I would expect that this occurs outside of class, in which case it might almost be considered a private instruction session. $5 for the belt itself also seems reasonable - the school has to buy them, probably at a cost very close to that. At that level of cost, it just seems to me like the school is covering the extra expenses of testing.

That's not to say that some schools haven't abused the idea of paying for your test. We've all heard the stories.)



That was 1986 - 1989

[Oso]

oh, and like MST, I try to bring in 'guests' for my students to spar. After sparring their classmates and me for a while the nervousness wears off and I feel that bringing someone in they have never seen before kicks the adrenaline up.

My testing fees are $25 per level up to Black sash. At most a student only tests twice a year. On top of that, my class fee is only $40/month for 2, 1 1/2 hour classes a week. I give my assistant instructor as much private time as she wants for helping me.

I'm having our sashes made by hand as we wear a long 6" sash for back and abdomen support, it costs me about $15 to get them made so all I do is cover my cost there.

but, csn is right there are some abuses out there.

[Stryder]

Do you encourage your students to participate in grading tests even if they're not ready? With my situation if you didn't test every three months the instructor lost interest in you. Personally I was 16 years old and didn't feel ready to grade every three months and I do agree that now $35 for each test can't be considered high. It is however high if the instuctor expects you to grade everytime regardless of your skill level!

With my current club we are all taught the same techniques in class and yes there are requirements for the next level but we don't have to pay to grade.

[Oso]

no students are not pushed to grade. Usually I'm telling them "not yet". New students (which is pretty much all I have) think that as soon as they can muddle there way from the beginning to the end of a form they should be able to move on. With a new school I don't have an upper echelon of older students to guide the new students in what to expect for the test and how it really is going to be tougher than a class etc. etc. I've got several people now who have been around long enough to go for yellow sash but they aren't training enough. They are pretty much just coming to class and that's it and that aint enough. I tell them just like HS or college you have to invest time in 'homework'.

I've had a drop recently and I think because he realized that there is a progession in ability at each level. I look on it as more of an exponential progression from rank to rank. A yellow sash should be more than just 1/10 as good as a white sash (given 10 steps to black sash)

[Robinf]

doh, double posted.

sorry. see the post below.

[Robinf]

At my school, students are not pushed into testing, either, except in some circumstances. Students are pushed when they have already been asked twice to test and have turned down the test. Then, the next test they have to take or they are tested privately with volunteers to help with sparring and breaking.

When we see the hours and curriculum are there, we then put that student up for testing. The student is allowed to decline, once without giving reason. The second time, they must have a good reason. After that, they must test so they can move on. Some students just have too thick of a shell and are too afraid to test.

I explain the tests and belts as follows:

We're not looking for perfection. We're looking to see if you keep your head about you; if you have spirit. We can fix mistakes in forms and beef up lessons on sparring. We can't fix spirit. That's the part of you we need to see shine through. We need to see you. That's all we're looking for--is you.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Recently, my students revolted, and I was forced to use a ranking system. Shuai Chiao, which is a Chinese system, has had some form of belt ranking for a while now. Even within the organization I belong to (ACSCA) there is wide variance from school to school as to what each rank requires, only standardizing at the black belt level.

In my little club, you need to demonstrate specific skills, how to train them, and a little philosophy for each rank. You also must demonstrate those skills and attributes in free fighting. For instance, a recent green belt testee was required to demonstrate all of his training to date, then the next day take part in free-fighting until he successfully demonstrated an understanding of his skill level. This included three-minute rounds and 10 second pressure cooker rounds. His opponents included a range of fighters, includeing people not from my school - to better test the understanding.

While this method does limit the size of my club, it gaurentees a certain quality in the teaching. I had gotten away from this for a while, and now I deeply regret it. Ranking and testing when applied to a truly acheived skill creates a real value for the student.


BTW - Royce would choke out your ranking system.


Nice post - especially that last sentence :D

[Surferdude]

I think that we can all say belts are used within the school to show rank or how long the student has been there and to give people goals.

[StarBoy]

My favorite ranking system is the old school ranking system.

If you survived, you're a black belt. :D