Leung Sheung

[5thBrother]

Hi all.

Leung Sheung

all information, stories, legends, facts, pics!!, details, url to web sites etc etc greatly appreciated...


thank you :)

5thBro

[5thBrother]

ps: is it true that his wing chun was influenced by his training in bak mei and choy lay fat?

:)

[kj]

Here are some good places to start:

Bay Area Wing Chun Students' Association website (http://www.bawcsa.org)

Planet Wing Chun and wingchun.com (http://www.wingchun.com)

A more comprehensive website dedicated to Leung Sheung will likely be published soon.

A recent message from Tsui Sheun Tin to the Ip Man Tong, highlighting his impressions with special acknowledgement of Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu. My Impressions of Yip Man Tong in Foshan (http://www.vingtsun.org.hk/imp_foshan.htm)

I don't know who you are or why you ask; maybe you already knew about these.

(Are you by any chance the brother who can hold his breath indefinitely?)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[kj]

Originally posted by 5thBrother
ps: is it true that his wing chun was influenced by his training in bak mei and choy lay fat?

:)

Depends what you mean by "influenced."

When Leung Sheung began learning with Ip Man, he set aside his previous training, dedicating and immersing himself wholly in Wing Chun. He gave up his prior training, his students and livelihood, and even sacrificed time with his wife and children to live with Ip Man for 6 years. It will be hard to find anyone who gave up more for Wing Chun than Leung Sheung did. His near poverty is a testament that he taught Wing Chun more for love than for money.

A broad and deep understanding of other martial arts will of course inform one's practice. To imply that he mixed other arts with his Wing Chun would be inconsistent.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

KJ- thanks for the link to TST's comments on LS anf LY. Without those early days IM wing chun would have had an even more difficult time.

[reneritchie]

Leung Sheung WCK looks to me pretty close to how several mainland lineages do their WCK, so I don't put a lot of stock into cross-contamination stories...

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Rene,


Originally posted by reneritchie
Leung Sheung WCK looks to me pretty close to how several mainland lineages do their WCK, so I don't put a lot of stock into cross-contamination stories...

I was just curious to know, is your observation based on just seeing Ken Chung's Wing Chun, or have you had the chance of seeing other Leung Sheung students as well? Also, can you name a few specific lineages that you feel Leung Sheung WCK resembles?

Genuine question. Kinda sad when you have to worry about qualifying yourself so as to not be misinterpreted as a troll when asking a question, but I digress....

Thanks,
Alan

[kj]

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
I was just curious to know, is your observation based on just seeing Ken Chung's Wing Chun, or have you had the chance of seeing other Leung Sheung students as well? Also, can you name a few specific lineages that you feel Leung Sheung WCK resembles?

Hi Zhuge,

René will no doubt offer more insight. In the meantime, and at a minimum, he has met and exchanged with Dr. Jack Ling, another student of Leung Sheung.

René also met me and my training partner, Mark, on several occasions. That doesn't factor heavily in response to your question though, since a) we train under Ken (therefore somewhat redundant, just as with Ken's other students whom Rene met, like JL), and b) it was largely before we could demonstrate anything reasonably representative anyway (though I'm sure the Bay Area contingent did a much better job in showing student progression).

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[tparkerkfo]

Hi,

Just adding to KJ's response. As we were not there, and it is hard to know exactly what Leung Sheung knew, was taught, and how HE taught, it is hard to say exactly how Bak Mei and Choy Li Fut influenced him. I myself am skeptical that any person could spend so much of their life developing skills to a high level, as Leung Sheung was said to be pretty good at his other arts, and not have them have SOME influence. However, We are told that he was so amazed by Yip Man's skills that he quite those arts cold turkey. But, being and older adult with a lot of martial experience, I would assume that there was some influence in his thinking. I have no doubt that when he learned something he probably thought about how it could be countered. So I think he would have a greater appreciation for wing chun. If one is suggesting that he some how blended his wing chun with a bak mei or choy li fut flavor, then you would be disapointed. There is no bak mei or Choy Li Fut influence at all.

I have seen some YKS and I would say that there are huge differences. But as Rene said, there are certain traits that do seem similar. Rene has suggested that Leung Sheung lineage is the closest to what he does, but I don't think he meant that is was close. I view Yip Man wing chun as very specialized. I see other arts like Yuen Kay San as more expansive, meaning they didn't spend years trying to simplify the art as perhaps Yip Man did. This is based on my observations and many would argue that it is not true.

PS, I too would love any stories of Leung Sheung. LOL.

Tom
________
HAWAII DISPENSARIES (http://hawaii.dispensaries.org/)

[reneritchie]

Hi,

I've met Ken Chung Sifu and Jack Ling sifu, I've also met students of the Leung Ting and Paul Lam lineages, and I vaguely remember one fellow from HK whose sifu's name escapes me. Each had some element of similarity. Jack Ling sifu was the closest in terms of overall "flavor". Ken Chun sifu had the same kind of "receiving" feel. Paul Lam's students had many of the same drills. etc.

In general, they kept the same body points (knees closed in to one-fist-distance (kim sut), etc.).

There were differences, of course, as well, but the core seemed to be more similar to Sum Nung WCK (and I'd hazzard Gulao as well based on what I've seen) then many others.

(Please note, I'm just talking about the absolute bread and butter basics below basics here, not how a certain hand is turned or the hight of an elbow in a certain point of the set, or anything like that - just the overall mechanics that are identifiable in all our arts).

[John Weiland]

I don't find Ken Chung's Wing Chun engine being similar to any but his Leung Sheung classmates, Jack Ling and Siu Wong, and the HK based Ah Dak, and of course his foremost student, Ben Der. Any similarities perceived in different lineages are probably superficial. Ken Chung's Wing Chun is pure Leung Sheung. Leung Sheung taught what Yip Man taught him. Ken's unique training, putting in eight training hours a day, five days a week from an early age, and Ken's natural gifts, makes him Leung Sheung's best exemplar. There are plenty of recountings of Leung Sheung's early years with Yip Man, so it can be seen that Leung Sheung's own training was under unique circumstances. KJ has some good articles and a FAQ at http://www.rochesterwingchun.com/ describing Ken's Wing Chun.

Characteristicly, Ken Chung this Saturday was allowing his students to perfect their often painful techniques on him, a teaching method handed down through Leung Sheung. I suppose one could do a poll---how many other teachers let their students practice on them until the teacher detects the correct energy? From what I've seen, most teachers practice on their students, not the other way around.

Historical anecdote: Ken also mentioned Saturday that Leung Sheung told him, if Yip Man were to watch him (LS) practice, Yip would still correct him. :D

[t_niehoff]

John Weiland wrote:

I don't find Ken Chung's Wing Chun engine being similar to any but his Leung Sheung classmates, Jack Ling and Siu Wong, and the HK based Ah Dak, and of course his foremost student, Ben Der. JW

And you've seen everyone else in WCK to make that broad statement? TN

Any similarities perceived in different lineages are probably superficial. JW

LOL! That can be good or bad. ;) But again, you've seen everything . . . . TN

Ken Chung's Wing Chun is pure Leung Sheung. JW

I don't think that is necessariloy a good thing -- why would someone want to be "pure Leung Sheung"? TN

Leung Sheung taught what Yip Man taught him. JW

Same with everyone else. It's not what YM taught him that matters but rather what he could do and what he could teach others. TN

Ken's unique training, putting in eight training hours a day, five days a week from an early age, and Ken's natural gifts, makes him Leung Sheung's best exemplar. JW

Sure, everyone's sifu is "so-and-so's best student". Of course, it begs the question of how one makes this determination. TN

There are plenty of recountings of Leung Sheung's early years with Yip Man, so it can be seen that Leung Sheung's own training was under unique circumstances. JW

Everyone that studied with YM has their own "unique circumstances." What I always find interesting is how folks point to these things, rather than proven performance (being able to use it) as proof of their "mastery." TN

Terence

[John Weiland]

Hi Terence,

Originally posted by t_niehoff

I don't find Ken Chung's Wing Chun engine being similar to any but his Leung Sheung classmates, Jack Ling and Siu Wong, and the HK based Ah Dak, and of course his foremost student, Ben Der. JW

And you've seen everyone else in WCK to make that broad statement? TN

Have you seen everyone in Wing Chun Kuen? Is this a debate point? The thread poster asks for information. If you read what I said, you'll find information in addition to my opinion, which is also information.


Any similarities perceived in different lineages are probably superficial. JW

LOL! That can be good or bad. ;) But again, you've seen everything . . . . TN

Am I required to be an authority on every obscure path of Wing Chun Kuen such as yours in order to post? I would venture that I am a more reliable source of information than many on this topic. What's a matter, Terence, jealous? While I recognize that Rene has met Ken, that is a far cry from implying understanding. Rene is entitled to his opinions, but experience in other lineages does not necessarily inform his opinions vis-a-vis Ken Chung's.


Ken Chung's Wing Chun is pure Leung Sheung. JW

I don't think that is necessariloy a good thing -- why would someone want to be "pure Leung Sheung"? TN
You don't think? Obviously, it is a good thing, because of who and what Leung Sheung represents in terms of Wing Chun. Again, I'm not debating here. You should look it up. And stop making it up. :p


Leung Sheung taught what Yip Man taught him. JW

Same with everyone else.
Oh? What evidence do have of this? Leung Sheung made it a proud point to say that what he taught was all from Yip Man. What is the source of your Wing Chun?


It's not what YM taught him that matters but rather what he could do and what he could teach others. TN

There you go. Now we're getting on the same wavelength. :D


Ken's unique training, putting in eight training hours a day, five days a week from an early age, and Ken's natural gifts, makes him Leung Sheung's best exemplar. JW

Sure, everyone's sifu is "so-and-so's best student". Of course, it begs the question of how one makes this determination. TN

Feel free to start another thread. :rolleyes: Re-read the previous message and then tell me what other living Wing Chun teacher has such a background and Ken's achievements.


There are plenty of recountings of Leung Sheung's early years with Yip Man, so it can be seen that Leung Sheung's own training was under unique circumstances. JW

Everyone that studied with YM has their own "unique circumstances."
So what? Do their circumstances match Leung Sheung's?


What I always find interesting is how folks point to these things, rather than proven performance (being able to use it) as proof of their "mastery." TN

Good point. Thanks for bringing this up. Don't doubt that Ken can prove his Wing Chun skill. So can his students. BTW, I don't believe in masters. No such thing, Terence.

[kj]

Originally posted by reneritchie
In general, they kept the same body points (knees closed in to one-fist-distance (kim sut), etc.).

There were differences, of course, as well, but the core seemed to be more similar to Sum Nung WCK (and I'd hazzard Gulao as well based on what I've seen) then many others.

(Please note, I'm just talking about the absolute bread and butter basics below basics here, not how a certain hand is turned or the hight of an elbow in a certain point of the set, or anything like that - just the overall mechanics that are identifiable in all our arts).

Hi Rene.

Having met and spent time with you, Antony and Georgia, I know what you are saying. I have seen a broad range of Wing Chun so far, especially within the Ip Man families, and hope the trend continues. I have met many practitioners, and notable number of teachers and "masters." So I have at least some basis for comparison in recounting my own experience. I also studied and was exposed to different flavors of Wing Chun before my time with Ken, so some of my comparative experiences are very much first hand. Not to mention I've seen a lot of videos, as most folks have, LOL.

When we compared our sets (you, Antony, Georgia, myself and others) there were some obvious differences. Your range of "techniques" overall appears much broader, and I would characterize what I practice to be significantly more minimalist in comparison. We also have tremendous differences in terms of practice exercises and drills.

However, when we touch hands, you, Antony, and Georgia felt consistently more "familiar" than most hands I've touched from other schools, even Ip Man groups, aside from than those I know and have experienced in the Leung Sheung line. I "felt" we were on very common ground.

We can think of Wing Chun more in terms of techniques, or more in terms of "engine." I tend to put more concentration and emphasis into the engine. (And FWIW, need to put a heck of a lot more emphasis there, too. ;) ) Not coincidentally, this is an area particularly emphasized by my teacher and others I know who studied from Leung Sheung.

When I touch hands with my friends from the Sum Nung line, I feel some similar aspects of our "engines," which in turn drives our hands. Not identical, yet strikingly similar, at least from my practitioner level and perspective. Thus your hands too - in application, if not in sets - also feel very "compatible" to me. This was true when working with all 3 of you, but perhaps most noticeable with Antony.

I am only and honestly recounting my personal observations and the feel of the hands (meaning more than just the "hands"), and not offering this from a lineage centric POV. I realize other people's experiences and observations will differ.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

John W.asks:
I suppose one could do a poll---how many other teachers let their students practice on them until the teacher detects the correct energy?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone that studied with YM has their own "unique circumstances." What I always find interesting is how folks point to these things, rather than proven performance (being able to use it) as proof of their "mastery." TN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A couple of anecdotal comments-

John-I understand the purpose involved- not showing the teacher is tough so much as "detecting the correct energy". About 4-5 months ago I brought Sifu Fong up to my place to correct my students. Sifu Fong wanted to help a particular student
develop the "explosiveness" of power because there seemed to be still some dependence on local muscle or "pushing".. He had the student
"palm" him on the chest. The student thought that his palm was pretty powerful (it is). But Sifu Fong kept taking it ...saying-- where's the power. Then the student got corrected and the palming was repeated again- until the proper power was felt-
and was evident to the student and myself as well. Ho Kam Ming
is about 80 years old and retired from active teaching. On several occasions with me present-He didnt offer his chest- but his own raised palm(no pads)- for specific students to hit hard until he detected the right energy usage in the development process.
The teacher's "feeling" in some way of the actual full power of a student is a somewhat rare but great opportunity for development. Conversely- a small sample of the teachers power
can give the studenta hint on the correctness of the path atleats to power. Of course there are other things besides power and many ways of
teaching and learning.

Terence- some years ago againsta person whp appeared to be ready- I saw Ken Chung quickly close the gap, penetrate the defense of the other fellow and hit the fellow with a shocking double palm.
As a person who is not in the Ken Chung line and does many things differently- I for one have zero doubt about Ken Chung's mastery of power, speed and timing..

[reneritchie]

KJ - Thanks for saying well what I was struggling with.

People tend to see what they want to see, be it similarity or difference. Of course there are differences, many and obvious, and of course everyone loves their sifu, but if we can't discuss how we all meet back as "Wing Chun Kuen", I think we lose a powerful grounder.

As to the rest, sorry fellas, I can't hear ya over the chest beating ;)

[t_niehoff]

John,

I have no problem with you saying how you or your school do things (I welcome that), but when you start telling me how everyone else does it . . . TN

JW writes:

Am I required to be an authority on every obscure path of Wing Chun Kuen such as yours in order to post? I would venture that I am a more reliable source of information than many on this topic. JW

Fine, then provide information on your lineage without the comparison ("we're so different than everyone else"). TN

What evidence do have of this? Leung Sheung made it a proud point to say that what he taught was all from Yip Man. What is the source of your Wing Chun? JW

Where else did Wong Sheung Leung, Ho Kam Ming, Hawkins Cheung, William Cheung, Lok Yiu, etc. learn but from Yip Man? Saying so-and-so teaches what they leaarned from Yip Man is obvious. The "source" of my WCK? -- most likely Wong Wah Bo. ;) TN

Re-read the previous message and then tell me what other living Wing Chun teacher has such a background and Ken's achievements. JW

Do you really want to go there? TN

So what? Do their circumstances match Leung Sheung's? JW

Who cares? How in the world does it matter? Skill doesn't come from "circumstances", and each individual is different. One person may spend 8 hours a day, 5 days a week and still not "get it"; another may get it very quickly. What matters is having the skill. TN

Don't doubt that Ken can prove his Wing Chun skill. So can his students. JW

Of course -- everyone has great skill. No one ever fights, but everyone has great skill. How could anyone doubt it? TN

Terence

[tparkerkfo]

Hey, is this post about Ken or Leung Sheung? I want to hear more about Leung Sheung, myself. Some opinions were asked for and some were given. We all can only speak from our expereinces, any one that reads any statement as an absolute is bound to have a difficult time in life. John's views are biased through his perspectives as are Terences. Big deal. Until hands are crossed, we cannot resolve any issues...and even then there are excusses. LOL

Anyways, lets hear more about Leung Sheung.

Anyone care to speak to the similarities between him and Lok Yiu or Tsui Shun Tin? Or the differences? Or how beeing an experienced Martial artist might have influenced learning...or not?

Tom
________
Fix ps3 (http://fixps3.info/)

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Tom,


Originally posted by tparkerkfo
Or how beeing an experienced Martial artist might have influenced learning...or not?


Have you ever experienced how scary Ken's Hung Kuen or Choy Li Fut is, despite the fact that he has never practiced Hung Kuen or Choy Li Fut? If he were to drop Wing Chun and take up either style, how good do you think he'd be each? I think that should answer the question... =)

Leung Shueng note for those who haven't heard it. According to Ken, he use to scold his students by saying, "Just using my Choy Li Fut, I can defeat any of your broken Wing Chun." And history repeats itself...

Regards,
Alan

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
I have no problem with you saying how you or your school do things (I welcome that), but when you start telling me how everyone else does it . . . TN

Right. :rolleyes: So, what are you doing on this thread?

[kj]

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
Leung Shueng note for those who haven't heard it. According to Ken, he use to scold his students by saying, "Just using my Choy Li Fut, I can defeat any of your broken Wing Chun." And history repeats itself...

Touché. I, for one, have plenty of work to do on my own broken Wing Chun.

Thanks for return and substance to the Leung Sheung part of the thread, and for the pearls as well.

Regards,
- kj

[yuanfen]

Rene- it's tough enough to get a decent discussion going on lists.
And one chooses ones own words. But chest beating somewhat trivilaizes what was being said and helps close the discussion
and it contributes at least incrementally to the deterioration to the same old stuff.

Think of the trivilization of pressure on the chest etc being used
for testing rooting and it being characterised similarly.

joy

[reneritchie]

Joy - I agree, but not only about my choice of words, but about the actions precipitating them. We can discuss the greatness of a person with trying to make anyone else seem less.

Anyway, Leung Sheung was and is the topic, no one else, not me, not you, and not the chest beaters ;)

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Alan,

Have we met? I am horible with names.

Anyways, I have seen Ken mimic several styles. I have forgotten which, but one was Choy Lif Fut and I think the others were Dragon and Bak Mei. I have not seen him mimic Hung Gar. He has a VERY good eye and seems to understand body motion very well. However, he once spoke about mimicing other styles, though that wasn't the nature of the talk. Ben Der wanted to show how wing chun would work against his white crane...but Ken didn't think that was an apporpriate test since Ben only knew a little white crane and whatever gained from the expereince would not be how a good white crane person would fight like. The equivalent of a novice wing chun guy going up against Royce Graice. Whatever he does would not be the same as Ken, Ben, or whoever doing so.

As far as Leung Sheung, he was quite profecint in Choy Li Fut, Bak Mei, and I beleive Dragon Style as well. Apparently he would occasionally feed some of these drills to the students, probably were Ken picked up some of them.

Tom
________
Amateur Hardcore (http://www.****tube.com/categories/59/hardcore/videos/1)

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Tom,


Have we met? I am horible with names.

I don't think we have. I'm sure it'll happen sooner or later in the future =)



Anyways, I have seen Ken mimic several styles. I have forgotten which, but one was Choy Lif Fut and I think the others were Dragon and Bak Mei. I have not seen him mimic Hung Gar. He has a VERY good eye and seems to understand body motion very well. However, he once spoke about mimicing other styles, though that wasn't the nature of the talk. Ben Der wanted to show how wing chun would work against his white crane...but Ken didn't think that was an apporpriate test since Ben only knew a little white crane and whatever gained from the expereince would not be how a good white crane person would fight like. The equivalent of a novice wing chun guy going up against Royce Graice. Whatever he does would not be the same as Ken, Ben, or whoever doing so.


That is definitely true, but the point was whether or not skill in one art would carry over when you learn a new art. If Ken and I were to both drop Wing Chun and take up Choy Li Fut together, I have no doubt that he would still be able to kick my ass, using just Choy Li Fut. Following the same line of reasoning, Leung Sheung with his level of skill in Choy Li Fut and Dragon style, would probably do better when learning Wing Chun in comparison with someone with no prior martial arts experience. Although this is of course not neccessarily true for all people.

Regards,
Alan

[planetwc]

I do remember Ken speaking of his teacher Leung Sheung and how he (Leung Sheung) would use Choy Li Fut to attack and break through his students Wing Chun. Then he would show them how to deal with those attacks.

My sifu, Ben Der did study White Crane for a while before he met Ken. This was during the time after he left Hong Kong where he had studied with Yip Man as a teenager and then left for the US to live. He found that during his study of White Crane that the Wing Chun he had learned from Yip Man was able to deal with White Crane in many respects.

He subsequently met Ken, Ken and he sparred, whereupon Ken wiped the floor with him and he became Ken's student. So while Yip Man opened Ben's hands, Ben considers Ken to be his sifu given the decades he has spent learning with him. He also traveled back to Hong Kong where he was introduced to Leung Sheung by Ken.

There are also a lot of fun stories about Leung Sheung and Lok Yiu training in the old days when they were living with Yip Man. More on that when I have more time to post.

[kj]

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
That is definitely true, but the point was whether or not skill in one art would carry over when you learn a new art. If Ken and I were to both drop Wing Chun and take up Choy Li Fut together, I have no doubt that he would still be able to kick my ass, using just Choy Li Fut. Following the same line of reasoning, Leung Sheung with his level of skill in Choy Li Fut and Dragon style, would probably do better when learning Wing Chun in comparison with someone with no prior martial arts experience. Although this is of course not neccessarily true for all people.

I would have to agree. A solid understanding of a) movement and b) general fighting principles are transferable skills.

OTOH, I think that for most mere mortals, eliminating previous patterns of movement to internalize new ones requires tremendous drive and commitment. There are always exceptions, but those appear to be either the naturally gifted, or those who have transcended into a certain place of general and refined excellence. I guarantee I am not one of the exceptions, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[John Weiland]

Hi Alan (You seem to have outed yourself in this thread.) :D

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang

That is definitely true, but the point was whether or not skill in one art would carry over when you learn a new art.

Skill in some other MAs would not make one better at Wing Chun IMO, but if one is good at other MAs, then it might be a predictor of eventual Wing Chun capacity.


If Ken and I were to both drop Wing Chun and take up Choy Li Fut....

Funny how Tom wanted to talk about Leung Sheung, then changed the subject to Ken again. :D This is justified though as Ken is a mirror of Leung Sheung training.

Since Ken spent over ten years studying with Leung Sheung, Ken is a font of information on the man. I enjoy hearing the anecdotes and Kuen Kuit ascribed to Leung Sheung from Ken as well as other LS' students. Leung Sheung was a patient and kindly teacher from all I've heard. Obviously, he and Yip Man shared a very close relationship.

When Yip Man was asked to speak at many of the clan's get-togethers, Yip would invariably hand the task to Leung Sheung, saying that LS could speak for him, which is representational of the closeness of approach of the two in the early HK years. If anyone wants support for this statement, Ken Chung, Jack Ling, and Siu Wong have all confirmed this.


I have no doubt that he would still be able to kick my ass, using just Choy Li Fut.

I have no doubt of it either. :D :D :D But, there is no separating Wing Chun from the man. Ken brings to fighting his unmatched horse, positioning, sensitivity, and timing, all of which he teaches us. Sadly, there are no shortcuts. :(


Following the same line of reasoning, Leung Sheung with his level of skill in Choy Li Fut and Dragon style, would probably do better when learning Wing Chun in comparison with someone with no prior martial arts experience. Although this is of course not neccessarily true for all people.

I think that other Kung Fu styles would have to be unlearned, old habits die hard. Again though, by proven athletic and mental prowess shown in other arts, this could predict success over time in Wing Chun Kuen. I don't think that the other arts mattered in the long run. Many attributes of other styles are a hindrance to learning Wing Chun.

David, I look forward with anticipation for your further posts regarding our Sigung's teacher, Leung Sheung. :cool:

One last point is that while we (Ken's students) know Leung Sheung through our teacher, Leung Sheung's own greatness was the result of Yip Man's tutelage. Any tribute to Leung Sheung should include acknowledgement of the debt we owe to Yip. Obviously, though, Yip Man was a very complicated person and diffident teacher, who shared his unmatched Wing Chun knowledge only reluctantly with most of his students.

Regards,

[tparkerkfo]

Hi all,

John- excellent post. I think much is owed to Yip Man for being a good teacher (when it came to certain people) and to Leung Sheung for being a good student. Leung Sheung, I think, had the benifit of wisdom and age in addition to martial experience. You mentioned that we would have to spend a lot of time unlearning previous skills, I think Leung Sheung did a great job at it.

Actually I don't mind speaking of Ken, I just wanted the bickering to stop. LOL. I have some access to Ken and his students, so I consider those stories second priority to Leung Sheung. I don't often get to hear stuff about him. Besides, some people don't appriciate what Ken has to offer dispite those same people gushing over others they have never met. I suppose if TST students were here, the same people would argue against his skills too. LOL

Alan- I think it is the person that makes a good martial artist. Ken is such a person and would have been good at what ever art he wished. Heck, his guitar playing probably would have been as good had he not found Leung Sheung. LOL. I look in my current class and note that some people get it while others don't. There is a such thing as a "natural" I think. I think Ken is as close as one can get.

I think there are many skills that are compatible if not even required among different martial arts. Since I don't have access to Wing Chun at the moment, I have been passing the time in Hung Gar. Hey, stop shouting "heathen" at me!!! You too John! But I do find many traits and attributes are similar for each style. I can reflect on many of the words of Ken that I feel help my Hung Gar. Yes it is VERY different in most aspects, but I think there are a lot of similarites between different arts. I think some one with an open mind can easily learn a new art. For those of you computer folks, how many have ever confused C++ with HTML? It is just a matter of context I think. Of course there will be some minor adjustment time.

Dave- any Leung Sheung stories would be greatly appreciated. I wont make camp this year so I will miss my yearly fix.

Tom
________
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[yuanfen]

David W. sez.
My sifu, Ben Der did study White Crane for a while before he met Ken.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember an early IKF article with Ben's pictures in it- comparing and contrasting his white crane and his wc. Joy
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John W. sez:

Funny how Tom wanted to talk about Leung Sheung, then changed the subject to Ken again. -
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats "Tom LOL"- no harm done. Joy
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John W also sez:
One last point is that while we (Ken's students) know Leung Sheung through our teacher, Leung Sheung's own greatness was the result of Yip Man's tutelage. Any tribute to Leung Sheung should include acknowledgement of the debt we owe to Yip. Obviously, though, Yip Man was a very complicated person and diffident teacher, who shared his unmatched Wing Chun knowledge only reluctantly with most of his students.
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John's loyalty and praise of LS is understandable. And it seems to me( the famous IMO) that LS was close to Ip man and that LS
must have beena very good wc teacher given KC and others.
But there were several others who spenta long time learning from and with Ip man whose wing chun and students are also notable and powerful.. But part of the problem is that list discussions dont provide a stable setting for discussing lots of things. And the MODuk tradition keeps the older generation from saying much about their contemporaries- known and unknown.
Makes the problem of newbies in deciding who to study with- not easy. There are IMO obviously ( seen from their motions) folks who barely were with Ip man- who mention IM at the drop of a hat and claim to know all of the "Real" IM wc. Finding a top notch kung fu teacher of ANY style is not the easiest thing in the world. Is IM wing chun "durable" given the passage of time... IMO- incredibly so-
if one understands it conceptually and practically and knows and learns how to apply it in a non contrived manner.
Greshan's law of bad money driving out the good is very much alive IMO in contemporary wing chun. Good wing chun is a rare thing- but hey good anything is a rare thing---- look at the standard boxing matches anywhere and then see again the Ali-Foreman fight or the secong Robinson- Fulmer fight- different worlds. I think that newbies to wing chun if they are serious, need to make a serious effort in findinga good and competent teacher
as LS, WSL and HKM and some others did , practice and practice AND ignore the net!!!

Joy

[John Weiland]

Hi Tom,

Originally posted by tparkerkfo

I think much is owed to Yip Man for being a good teacher....and to Leung Sheung for being a good student. Leung Sheung, I think, had the benifit of wisdom and age in addition to martial experience. You mentioned that we would have to spend a lot of time unlearning previous skills, I think Leung Sheung did a great job at it.

I think it was easier for Leung Sheung than for many folks because he trusted and believed what Yip Man told him. Many cannot grasp the principles of Wing Chun, or through greediness or fearfulness, fail to develop the requisite skills. Students must have faith in what they're being taught.


I suppose if TST students were here, the same people would argue against his skills too. LOL

I asked Ken about his knowledge of the question of Yip Man's teaching of the sets vs. san sau. Ken defers entirely to Lok Yiu and TST on that matter of history since only they were there.


Alan- I think it is the person that makes a good martial artist. Ken is such a person and would have been good at what ever art he wished. Heck, his guitar playing probably would have been as good had he not found Leung Sheung. LOL.

Don't know about guitar, but his high school grades would certainly have been better, I'm sure. :D


I look in my current class and note that some people get it while others don't. There is a such thing as a "natural" I think. I think Ken is as close as one can get.

Possibly. Depends on what natural means, I 'spose.


I think there are many skills that are compatible if not even required among different martial arts. Since I don't have access to Wing Chun at the moment, I have been passing the time in Hung Gar. Hey, stop shouting "heathen" at me!!! You too John!

Mmmphf! Heretic. Back slider. Apostate. :D


But I do find many traits and attributes are similar for each style. I can reflect on many of the words of Ken that I feel help my Hung Gar. Yes it is VERY different in most aspects, but I think there are a lot of similarites between different arts.

Or is it that after learning Wing Chun, one can apply it in a different martial context? Ben Der has a student who also studies Aikido. Ben shows the student how to make his Aikido work better. :D


I think some one with an open mind can easily learn a new art.

What's easy to learn may be of no value. Wing Chun is hard to learn, IMO. Karate Wing Chun is easy to learn but relatively ineffective.


For those of you computer folks, how many have ever confused C++ with HTML?

That's much different. No one rips your head off if you include C++ in your HTML coding. (Hmm, maybe you're right.) :D


It is just a matter of context I think. Of course there will be some minor adjustment time.

Like the rest of one's lifetime? :rolleyes:

Regards,

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by yuanfen
David W. sez.
My sifu, Ben Der did study White Crane for a while before he met Ken.
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I remember an early IKF article with Ben's pictures in it- comparing and contrasting his white crane and his wc. Joy
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Are you referring to the article with Ben and the White Crane "master?" While not explicitly stated in the article, it was clear from the pictures that the White Crane could not compare with Ben's Wing Chun answers to White Crane's techniques. IMO, it wasn't Ben's White Crane that gave him those answers, but Ken Chung's Wing Chun training.


John W also sez:
One last point is that while we (Ken's students) know Leung Sheung through our teacher, Leung Sheung's own greatness was the result of Yip Man's tutelage. Any tribute to Leung Sheung should include acknowledgement of the debt we owe to Yip. Obviously, though, Yip Man was a very complicated person and diffident teacher, who shared his unmatched Wing Chun knowledge only reluctantly with most of his students.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John's loyalty and praise of LS is understandable. And it seems to me( the famous IMO) that LS was close to Ip man and that LS
must have beena very good wc teacher given KC and others.
But there were several others who spenta long time learning from and with Ip man whose wing chun and students are also notable and powerful..

No argument from me.


But part of the problem is that list discussions dont provide a stable setting for discussing lots of things. And the Mo Duk tradition keeps the older generation from saying much about their contemporaries- known and unknown.

In many cases, there isn't much to say, is there? :D :D :D


Makes the problem of newbies in deciding who to study with- not easy. There are IMO obviously ( seen from their motions) folks who barely were with Ip man- who mention IM at the drop of a hat and claim to know all of the "Real" IM wc. Finding a top notch kung fu teacher of ANY style is not the easiest thing in the world. Is IM wing chun "durable" given the passage of time... IMO- incredibly so-

Yes. Achievement under Yip Man was an uncertain thing.


if one understands it conceptually and practically and knows and learns how to apply it in a non contrived manner.

Greshan's law of bad money driving out the good is very much alive IMO in contemporary wing chun. Good wing chun is a rare thing

Sadly true. And a good point to make here or in any discussion of TCMA.


- but hey good anything is a rare thing---- look at the standard boxing matches anywhere and then see again the Ali-Foreman fight or the secong Robinson- Fulmer fight- different worlds. I think that newbies to wing chun if they are serious, need to make a serious effort in findinga good and competent teacher
as LS, WSL and HKM and some others did , practice and practice AND ignore the net!!!

Hey, then they'd likely be ignoring you and me! How unfortunate for them. :p

We all envy you that on the listed three above, only HKM is still alive to provide quality input, but at least he has passed his knowledge on into competent hands.

Regards,