View Full Version : Kempo vs Chuan Fa.
Laughing Cow
03-09-2003, 08:41 PM
Hi All.
Just a quick question.
I always hear the terms Kempo thrown around, but not sure what the actual difference is between this and Chuan Fa.
BOTH Kempo and Chuan Fa use the same Chinese characters (Fist method or Fist law).
One(Kempo/Kenpo) is simply the Japanese method of pronounciation of the idiom.
I know that the Okinawan (RyuKyu) arts are either heavily influenced or were directly imported from China as were many other things.
Hence I can understand the difference in naming due to location.
Pls, note that Okinawan is a language that doesn't share much with japanese.
Now how does this relate to American Kempo (all styles), now shouldn't a new American chinese based style also be called "American Chuan Fa" than?
Or preferably they should drop both the Kempo & Chuan Fa label.
So how would a kempo style differ from a chuan fa style, both share the same origins way back when.
Or has the Kempo label been wrongly given to what bassically is a CMA?
Just confused.
dezhen2001
03-09-2003, 10:21 PM
its all just confusing imo :D chinese kempo, american kempo, american chuan fa... :confused:
dawood
Serpent
03-09-2003, 10:44 PM
Hmmm, look out. Can of worms!
Laughing Cow
03-09-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by Serpent
Hmmm, look out. Can of worms!
From what I have been told about the term "kempo" is as follows:
"Kempo" in Japan is used for styles that recognise their chinese origins.
Example:
Shorinshi Kempo (Shaolin Fist method)
Many styles were originally refered/suffixed as kempo, but with time and changes to the system the "Kempo" label was often dropped.
Just confused about the multitude and mismash of style names out there that use "kempo".
Cheers.
P.S.: Not passing judgement on any of these styles.
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Pls, note that Okinawan is a language that doesn't share much with japanese.Okinawan is a Japanese dialect no matter how hard you try to disprove it! :)
'Kempo' is a Japanese equivolent for Chinese 'quanfa' - they both share the same characters. Kanji (onyomi) is Chinese, not Japanese. The original set of Japanese characters or letters is katakana, and if some one disagrees and says that katakana is a derived form of writing descended from Chinese characters, it's completely false. Please refer to revealed passages from the Takeuchi Monjo for further proof - the only manuscript left from Pre-Ancient Japan. You'll also find similarities between Japanese and Jewish (Hebrew) scripture and connections between religions (Shinto & Judaism).
Now, to the original point. Kempo and quanfa are only common nouns. Kempo is not a distinct system of martial arts, neither is quanfa. They are only used to personify the meaning of a school or a system of martial arts. I believe American Kempo is a registered trademark (heh) and that's okay, but people are often mislead by this. Okay, now they know that American Kempo is a martial style, so then they start to intrigue how the Japanese "branch" of kempo might look like, which is absurd, because there is not a single fighting system that carries just the name 'kempo'. There is Ryukyu Kempo and there is Shorinji Kempo, but there is no style that is just kempo. I suppose 'Japanese Kempo' can be used to generalize Japanese striking arts similar to how Chinese arts are generalized as kung fu by the western crowd. And Laughing Cow is correct, Japanese styles that use the suffix 'kempo' have Chinese temple origins. Even the word 'po' (derived from 'ho' and Chinese 'fa') itself means 'method' or 'Buddhist teachings', which has an indirect religious connection to these arts.
Laughing Cow
03-10-2003, 02:51 AM
Sho.
AFAIK, Katakana came to Japan from Korea.
As for your point about Okinawan language, you talking the language commonly spoken there NOW or the original language that was there before Japan took over Okinawa/Ryukyu??
My Japanese friends say that proper Okinawan shares little with Japanese.
Former castleva
03-10-2003, 04:58 AM
Whatever,I have heard okinawan has died out for long and has about as much use as a dead language.
"Now how does this relate to American Kempo (all styles), now shouldn't a new American chinese based style also be called "American Chuan Fa" than?"
Oh man I wish someone would let Gracies know about this. ;)
Verbally a similar case,but AKK also prefers using plenty of english terms and promotes itīs national character,I think this is considered important.There were also new principles and stuff added to a degree,not a rip-off.
Besides such,this is not among remarkable cases (maybe dnc101 happens to check this thread)
While you can check this thread:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6152
Laughing Cow
03-10-2003, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by Former castleva
Whatever,I have heard okinawan has died out for long and has about as much use as a dead language.
I guess as much dead as Welsh or similar.
;) ;)
Former castleva
03-10-2003, 05:38 AM
Dunno about welsh. :rolleyes:
Laughing Cow
03-10-2003, 05:46 AM
FC.
Welsh as spoken in Wales/United Kingdom.
Here is some info about "hogen:
Okinawan (http://www2.rpa.net/~joeroa/hogen.htm)
Cheers.
Former castleva
03-10-2003, 05:56 AM
Thanks for the site.
A quick study shows that it is somewhat similar in "mood" to japanese but with considerable differences,reaching to grammar even.
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Sho.
AFAIK, Katakana came to Japan from Korea.
As for your point about Okinawan language, you talking the language commonly spoken there NOW or the original language that was there before Japan took over Okinawa/Ryukyu??
My Japanese friends say that proper Okinawan shares little with Japanese. I'll have to disagree with you. Katakana actually originates from Israel to be very exact. Japanese language itself still has about 2000 words from Hebrew.
I know what you mean by the Okinawan language. It is basically its own language, even though many don't speak it anymore, but it still isn't a separate language. I don't speak original Okinawan myself, but I know for sure that it's from the same family as other dialects in Japan. The case is quite similar to the most distinct dialects in China (Mandarin, Cantonese and Hakka).
However, the "race" of Okinawa slightly differs from Mainland Japanese.
Laughing Cow
03-10-2003, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by Sho
I'll have to disagree with you. Katakana actually originates from Israel to be very exact. Japanese language itself still shares about 2000 words from Hebrew.
Let me run this past my Japanese teacher, I am sure she will enjoy the hebrew connection.
As well as the origin of Katakana.
:D :D
Japanese does use foreign loanwords, majority being portugese, english & german.
Cheers.
Former castleva
03-10-2003, 06:41 AM
As interesting as it may sound,I have found some identical words in japanese and finnish. :)
"However, the "race" of Okinawa slightly differs from Mainland Japanese."
According to one old theory (of a Japanese culture pioneer) Japanese originate from Okinawa.
Originally posted by Former castleva
According to one old theory (of a Japanese culture pioneer) Japanese originate from Okinawa.I believe so too, when we're talking about "contemporary" Japan (within the last 5000 years or so - pretty contemporary, eh? :)). But the Asian gene influence has mainly come from Korea and China. The body structure and pigmentation of the original Japanese people wasn't Asian (black hair, etc).
dezhen2001
03-10-2003, 11:21 AM
a japanese and hebrew connection - that is just amazing! :eek::)
id be interested to hear if you have any information on this :)
dawood
Laughing Cow
03-10-2003, 02:33 PM
FC & Sho.
You two got some links/sources to back up your statements about the Okinawan & Japanese languages.
joedoe
03-10-2003, 03:31 PM
I have heard of the Finnish connection from someone else. Apparently a Finnish researcher did a study of the languages and found a lot in common. I don't know how true it is, as it was a Finn that told me this :)
Laughing Cow
03-10-2003, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by joedoe
I have heard of the Finnish connection from someone else. Apparently a Finnish researcher did a study of the languages and found a lot in common. I don't know how true it is, as it was a Finn that told me this :)
Many languages will share common bits., but that is not a proof of origin.
Japanese imported a lot of words from traders and scholars over the last few hundred years.
Still makes me laugh when I hear english speakers complain about german as they used to be the same language.
dezhen2001
03-10-2003, 04:18 PM
i know that my grandfather could understand some german in WW2 as he could speak Scottish Gaelic :)
dawood
'MegaPoint
03-10-2003, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Sho.
As for your point about Okinawan language, you talking the language commonly spoken there NOW or the original language that was there before Japan took over Okinawa/Ryukyu??
My Japanese friends say that proper Okinawan shares little with Japanese.
Your friend is correct and incorrect. "Hogan" the dialect spoken by the Okinawans shares similarities with Japanese, but a person who spoke hogan exclusively, talking to someone who spoke japanese, would get real confused. In the Philippines for example, the main language is Tagalog or Pilipino. If you're from the island of Cebu you would probably also know Cebuano. On the main island of Luzon many dialects abound. On the southern tip of the Island in Bicol, Bicolano is spoken. Where Clark AB use to be, inland quite a bit, the people of Pampanga province speak Pamapangan. Tagalog only speakers who grew up in the capital of Manila, wouldn't understand a da mn thing in any of these dialects, although pronunciation and accent may be "similar"
Here is an example of what I'm talking about. In Japanese the term "uchiche" means to strike/hit. The Okinawan made their own term from this, that would confuse someone who didn't know the hogen culture or hogan (the language). To the Okinawan this term means not only to hit but "to strike in such a way that the opponent is completely defeated". Subtle but enough to confuse the issue.
Another unique Okinawan term is "Umuiri". Kata or forms is the most important aspect of real karate training. Once a karateka (one who practices karate) has learned a form and the process becomes instinctual, many old Okinawan "Shinshii" (senseis) say ones true essence or "inner Beauty/ self" shines through. Fatal character flaws can be gleaned by the teacher as the practitoners true self becomes apparent.
Hogan can best describe the uniquely Okinawan art of karate. Many Okinawan instructors will comment how the rigid, cold, less emotional Japanese culture and language (a bit harsh I know) lacks the subtle nuances of Hogan and cannot adequately describe the original INTENT of Tode (Karate). So how can any Japanese Karate that doesn't remember where it originated from, know/understand and convey true "karate" completely?
Chuan Fa and Kempo/Kenpo mean the same thing in 2 different languages. American Kenpo and other non-Okinawan Kenpo, with the exception of Doshin-So's Shorinji Kempo, are just using a term . Many of their principles have no true bearing on the teachings of Shaolin "Chuan Fa/Kenpo" that the great Okinawan Bushi Matsumura Sokon, Kanryu Higaonna and a couple of others learned at the Fukien Shaolin Temple before "karate" was a word. Bye- bye. Hope you learned things...
Never tell an Okinawan that they are Japanese! Never say that Hogan is Japanese. It's like telling a Cebuano they speak a dialect of Tagalog. English and American are too very distinct forms of English. I can't understand halfa' what the limeys spit! English is a Germanic tongue, but the krauts speak a totally different language! There could be some relation, but there is a reason for the separation!
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
FC & Sho.
You two got some links/sources to back up your statements about the Okinawan & Japanese languages. My arguments about Okinawan language are only based on my own opinions. I don't claim them to be correct. These things cannot be proven right or wrong, simply because there is no physical evidence for us to refer to. All arguments about Okinawa are just ambiguous assumptions. It's just that I personally consider Okinawans as Japanese and their language as a Japanese dialect, similar to the relationship between Cantonese and Chinese. I know how critical the Okinawans are about people criticizing their culture. Okinawans are not fond of being credited as Japanese, but I reckon Japan is still a relatively large country and the people have distinct tribal differences according to their location.
Now, the original discussion was supposed to be about the relationship between kempo and quanfa - maybe we should stick with that. :D
About the Hebrew connection.. I have gathered information from various different sources (books and the internet), but unfortunately I don't have any websites saved in my favourites. However, I'm sure you can find a handful of sources that tell about the Jewish origin of Japan if you check Google or Altavista.
Richie
03-11-2003, 03:50 PM
I was taught that katakana was very very simplified kanji (or parts of kanji) that was created a long time ago (maybe by monks) and was often used by women.
Laughing Cow
03-11-2003, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Richie
I was taught that katakana was very very simplified kanji (or parts of kanji) that was created a long time ago (maybe by monks) and was often used by women.
That is the same that was taught to me.
Also Katakana are easier to be read when hand-written, kinda like us writing in block letters.
In modern Japanese schools, they teach that there were no alphabets in Japan before they integrated kanji from China. That's just silly. Katakana is the original set of characters in Japanese. Some katakana characters do have similarities with kanji (eg. 'ka' and 'chikara'), but I guess that's because katakana has, too, evolved over the years. Ever wondered how similar katakana is to Hebrew?
Long time ago, China (the Buddhists) invaded Japan to convert them to Buddhism. They burned books and ancient manuscripts to wipe out the true identity of Japan. The clash was between the fraternities of Shinto and Buddhism. That's why nowadays so few people know about the pre-ancient history of Japan. The Emperor of Japan is well aware of these things, but it would be crazy to proclaim things that are so obscure and ambiguous in public. People would think he's crazy if he told that the grave of Moses is in Japan or that he has been abducted by aliens or that he has ancient artifacts that have Hebrew writings on them.
dezhen2001
03-12-2003, 07:21 AM
mate... im really interested now... could you do another google search (as u prob know what to search on better than us) and pm me?
also how do u know that the emperor and others know all that:confused:
dawood
Richie
03-12-2003, 03:30 PM
I don't know where you are getting all of this, but there was no writings (documents) written by Japanese before a certain time. All historical accounts before the introduction of kanji were written mainly by the Chinese. Kanji was borrowed and hiragana was created to fill in the gaps. Then, monks (probably) created katakana, which was mainly used by women.
You can research my info in many books wrttin by PhD (the history differs a bit in each book). You found that Jewish thing online. Anybody can write anything online.
Anyone can write anything if there is no physical evidence to disprove fallacy. As I told you before, the Buddhists got rid of nearly everything relating to Japanese heritage back then (and that's why there are no writings left from that certain period of time).
Why would the monks create katakana if they already had kanji? The original Japanese language (free from onyomi) wouldn't need kanji, because then everything would be written in kunyomi and kunyomi doesn't need kanjis to be comprehensible. For the most part, only onyomi (words derived from Chinese) has words that have multiple meanings and that is why kanji characters are needed to understand the particular word that's being used.
The Jewish connection.. Well, you don't have to believe in it - it's just a theory - but I believe in it.
Laughing Cow
03-12-2003, 04:12 PM
Sho.
Kanji were imported into Japanese on 3 big waves, thus you got multiple readings and meanings as their usage in China had changed.
Funnily enough a friend of mine who studies ancient chinese keeps coming to Japan to fill gaps in her knowledge about the older use of some Chinese Characters.
Sorry, but like ritchie I don't buy your theory until you come up with proof.
I also thought that Buddhism was outlawed for a long time, and that shinto was the only allowed religion.
Cheers.
I'm not trying to make you believe. I'd just like to share some information with you guys so that less people would be blinded by Chinese propaganda. Just kidding. :D
Japanese schools nowadays preach that there was no speech in Japan before Chinese was introduced. So, we know that onyomi is Chinese, but where did kunyomi come from?
I reckon:
Kunyomi & katakana = Original Japanese (speech & writing)
Shinto = Original Japanese religion (which is also closely linked to the religious circle of Christianity, Judaism and Islam)
Onyomi & kanji = Chinese (speech & writing) integrated to Japanese language during the period of religious turmoil between Shinto & Buddhism
Laughing Cow
03-12-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Sho
Shinto = Original Japanese religion (which is also closely linked to the religious circle of Christianity, Judaism and Islam)
WTF.
Do you actually know what shinto (http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2056.html) is all about??
I think you need to do a bit more research before posting on this topic again.
Cheers.
I do know.
Which part don't you understand?
Shinto is a figurative religion. You shouldn't absorb everthing in a literal sense. When we're talking about a rock, it doesn't just mean the rock, it has a deeper and more allegorical meaning than the tangible objects that you find in the woods and elsewhere.
Amaterasu Oomikami has a meaning too. Do you know what Amaterasu means? Maybe you should do some research yourself before countering. I'll just say, for now, that Amaterasu Oomikami is a person who landed on Earth with a spacecraft many years ago. People don't come up with names like Amaterasu just because it sounds cool (wow, a guy who penetrated the sky - sounds mysterious). Dang, sorry for being a pain in the ass, but I just wanted to tell my opinion.
And remember that my claims are also based on assumptions which are ambiguous! I might be proven wrong in, let's say, 200 years from now on. ;)
(Btw, I'll have to get some sleep now. Be back tomorrow! Peace.)
Laughing Cow
03-12-2003, 05:39 PM
Hmmm.
Do I see here the influence of Erich von Daeniken (http://www.daniken.com/e/index.html).
Richie
03-13-2003, 02:14 AM
All right dude, you win. I guess my BA in Japanese studies and me living and studying in Japan don't mean jack.
This thread is going way too OT. Well, I guess we could come up with connections between kempo and extraterrestrial beings. But let's leave that for some other time. :D
Good arguments, Laughing Cow & Richie! Thanks.
Vapour
03-13-2003, 08:13 AM
Wow, there are some crazy **** said over here so let me give you more balanced view of the history of Japan, it's people and language. This comment is going to be long so if you are not interested, skip. I'm a Japanese btw.
Firstly, there was once a theory floated around by someone who claimed that Japanese is one of the lost 12 tribes of Israel. This theory has been conclusively disproven by DNA testing. There are number of tribes in Africa who make the same claim and some of their claim has been validated. Not in case of Japan. Remeber 12 tribes of Israel is not so long time ago in term of history of humanity so such claim is very easily valfied by DNA.
Secondly, for more complex history of Japanese laguage you need bit of basic in lingusitic. Now for origin of language, lingusitic look for number of characteristc. I will list it in order of importance. It is pronounciation, root words (i.e. words such as what, is, there or commonly used words such eat, look, hit and so on), grammer and non root word (in English that mean lot of words originated in French, also academic use lot of Latin or greek term but that doesn't mean English is latin origin) then lastly, script. For a trivia, English is clasified as Germanic laugnage.
In Japanese pronounciation system, almost every sounds end with vowel (a i u e o) and this is the same as malay/indonesian/philipino and polenesian language. If you meet Okinawan or people from southern Kyushu, you can see that their feature do in fact have strong similarity with malay (and taiwanese before Chinese moved in). Ainu, Japanese aboliginies who lives in northern Japan also has very similar feature and pronounciation system though their skin colour is very fair. And, some people with southern Japanese blood has curly hair when they are child (like my sis who still has a bit of weavy hair :-) ).
Oriental history of Japan started near 2000 years ago when horse riding tribes from Korean moved into japanese islands and slowly moved northward. They subjucated native southerner (Hayato) and drove northener (ainu) to further north. Btw, linguistic origin of Shogun is "Norther Frontier General". If you see early part of Japanese Imperial court, nearly 70% of nobility claimed its lineage from Korean peninsula.
This however, doesn't means that current Korean is the decendant of these conquring hoseriders. Korean also had lot of influx of these horse rider. Racially, these people cover, Korean, Manchurian, Mongolian and Japanese but not Chinese. We tend to have more slanty eyes and were originally hunter race which kinda explain the eyes. However, because we tend to move around a lot in search of loots, linguistic influence far outreach beyond Orient. For example, turkish are altaic in lingusitic term so as Finish, and I think Hungarian as well. We also spawn the largest number of empires as lingustic group, most famous one being mongolian empire but there are few others, including mugal empire in India, one persian one and number of islamic empires most famous one being Ottoman (turkish), plus few Mancurian empries, the last one being the last dynasty of China, Qi dynasty, and you can count Japanese one as the last which was, ahhh, a disaster.
O.K. back to Japan. So Japanese has pronounciation system based on malay-polinesia-ainu, gramatical structure based on Altaic(Korean), root words from both ainu and altaic and script and non-root words based on Chinese and Korean.
Japanese has two scripts. Hiragana and Katakana. There are some records which state the existence of separate script system for colonised native but that has been lost. Interesting thing about Japanese is that largely, they are vegitarian so did not possess technique to castrate men to serve as unach in emperial court like in China. So instead, women became the scribe in Empirial household. Hiragana originated from women adopting Chinese into japanese pronoucniation while katakana was created by Buddhist prieasts who done the same. Another trivia is that this is the reason why the first novel in the world was written by a Japanese woman called Murasaki Shikibu.
Okinawan is a dialect of Japanese though it is very distant dialect like German and Danish. It was once claimed to be not related to Japanese but ligustic study did find that Okinawan is a variation of Japanese laguage. But then, given the history, Okinawan could claimed to be the father of Japanese laguage.
Vapour
03-13-2003, 08:31 AM
Oh about Shourin Kempo, it was Shaolin Fist Method in Japanese. Basically, like american Kung Fu, Japanese guy opened a Shaolin Kung Fu School in Japan and pronounced Chinese Characters in Japanese.
Unfortunately, like many japanese martial arts (aikido cough cough), students worshipe their founder like god so some of Kempo tend to be a bit cult like. Then, when it went to America, it kinda got promoted as if it is a separate style.
Afterward, some American martial arts school adopted the word kempo for purely marketing purpose. Happen a lot. Lot of jujitu or ninjutu school out there has no historical connection. I recently saw a school called "Kempo Jujitu".
Vapour
03-13-2003, 08:33 AM
.
Great points, Vapour.
However, I'll still have to disagree with some statements, such as the one with the origin of katakana and DNA testing. :D
By the way, do you happen to know what kind of grammatical word order Korean has? Is it: subject -> object -> predicate? It would be interesting to know, because not many languages have this particular order.
Vapour
03-13-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Sho
Great points, Vapour.
However, I'll still have to disagree with some statements, such as the one with the origin of katakana and DNA testing. :D
By the way, do you happen to know what kind of grammatical word order Korean has? Is it: subject -> object -> predicate? It would be interesting to know, because not many languages have this particular order.
Yep predicate/verb comes at the end of the sentence in Japananese and Ural-Altaic languages. However, on a detailed account, connection between Ural and Altaic languages are bit controversial. Plus korean and Japanese are sometimes not included because it's share very little root words with other Altaic language.
Laughing Cow
03-13-2003, 02:29 PM
Vapour.
According to a friend who is a Shorinshi kenshi it is officially a religion.
Apparently they registered as a religion in order to get special status and tax-cuts.
Cheers.
Vapour
03-13-2003, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Vapour.
According to a friend who is a Shorinshi kenshi it is officially a religion.
Apparently they registered as a religion in order to get special status and tax-cuts.
Cheers.
:0
Ohh dear, then I won't recomend Shorin Kempo to anyone from now on.
dezhen2001
03-13-2003, 04:12 PM
Shorinji kempo as far as i know is registered as a religion because of the teachings of "Kon go Zen" which is obviously a type of Buddhism.
From my own experience you are taught baout morality and the 8 fold path and such things but it is not enforced. Kempo is more about becoming a better person and developing morality than a religion.
ime anyway :)
dawood
ppower
03-13-2003, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by dezhen2001
a japanese and hebrew connection - that is just amazing! :eek::)
id be interested to hear if you have any information on this :)
dawood
i believe it is a style called crap-maga.
translated into japanese, it's pronounced as "jew-jit-sue"
dezhen2001
03-13-2003, 05:07 PM
LOL! :D
dawood
Vapour
03-13-2003, 07:22 PM
I was wrong. Yes, Japanese did originate from one of the twelve tribe of Israel.
http://www.merriol.freeserve.co.uk/products/ninja.htm
dezhen2001
03-13-2003, 07:27 PM
OMG thats even better! :D
dawood
Vapour, hehe. :D
Thanks for the grammar info.
About katakana (http://izumo.cool.ne.jp/iwaodate/izanagiizanami.htm).
dnc101
03-21-2003, 12:52 PM
I finally have a little time.
This is from the Tracy's Kenpo page (btw, I'm not a Tracy's practitioner, and Mitose has nothing to do with EPAK):
__________________________________________________ __
"... James Mitose wanted all to know that while there were some similarities to other martial arts, Kosho/Kenpo had taken a different path of development and was a style of its own - not to be considered Japanese in nature or origin!
The Japanese government recognized this when they did away with the Samurai as a class and outlawed the traditional wearing of swords. At this same time the Japanese Government's edict went out: when the sanctity of human life was affirmed, Kenpo was made an illegal art. Jiu Jitsu was allowed to be practiced because it was more scientific. Meaning: Kenpo was a "killing art" that had its true origin in China!
Kenpo was NOT a Japanese art! Even its "Characters" were of Chinese origin - in China known as "Ch'uan Fa." Go to the Japanese dictionary on the web Make sure "Japanese" is highlighted; type in kenpo. When it comes up it will be the 6th one down: - it is defined as a Chinese Martial Art. While you are using the Japanese dictionary on the web type in kempo - see the result of using this spelling!"
__________________________________________________ __
(The Tracy's were early students of SGM Parker, but left early on to do their own thing)
The dictionary is at:
http:/linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/dict
I'll save you the trouble though- you get nothing with that spelling, as I recall.
As a matter of efficiency/brevity, we do use the different spellings to commonly denote Chinese or Japanese origins- kenpo being Chinese, kempo being the Japanese derivatives. Nothiing to do with original pronunciation, just our own shorthand.
American Kenpo is its own distinct style, taken from the original Chinese base, much as the Japanese versions were. Mr Parker studied and worked with several styles (primarily Chuan Fa), gleaned and catalogued the principles, and made them relevant to the American street and the Western mind. And, like the Japanese, AK has several branches or sub systems, different schools: SL-4 Kenpo, Tracy's, White Tiger, IKCA; and several EPAK organisations who basically teach the same AK but with some minor variations.
I probably resurected this thread just to muddy the waters some more. I really don't know why Mr Parker called it American Kenpo instead of American Chuan Fa. Probably something to do with marketing, but who knows? The main thing is that it is its' own style, with Chinese roots.
Laughing Cow
03-21-2003, 02:23 PM
dnc101.
Thanks, for the info.
FYI, Kempo and kenpo are the same in Japanese.
Japanese do not differentiate between 'm & 'n, 'h & 'f, etc sounds.
When I was in Japan I ofen saw the same place/word spelled with either 'm or 'n.
Example:
Nihombashi & Nihonbashi.
Cheers.
Do you speak yiddish Sho?
Some people in Spain said my last name comes from a son of Noah. People like myths
Originally posted by Laughing Cow
Japanese do not differentiate between 'm & 'n, 'h & 'f, etc sounds.
When I was in Japan I ofen saw the same place/word spelled with either 'm or 'n.
Example:
Nihombashi & Nihonbashi.
You are quite correct. However, if the 'm' is at the beginning of a word, it is very well recognized as an 'm' and never as an 'n'. Ie. you would never pronounce 'matsu' as 'natsu', since their meanings are completely different. Heh.
Peace.
Laughing Cow
03-22-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Sho
You are quite correct. However, if the 'm' is at the beginning of a word, it is very well recognized as an 'm' and never as an 'n'. Ie. you would never pronounce 'matsu' as 'natsu', since their meanings are completely different. Heh.
Peace.
You are correct there. But than it is not really an issue with Japanese as they use the Chinese Characters & Kana and not romanized writing.
Actually there was once a magazine that tried to write all in kana, apparantely was a pain to read as the meanings or words became lost.
Peace.
But for instance, if you would write 'kempo' in hiragana, it would still be written with an 'n'. Ke-n-po-u. No exceptions to that, since there is no stand-alone 'm' in Japanese as there is for 'n'.
Laughing Cow
03-23-2003, 05:45 AM
Sho.
From my experience it would never be written in kana.
Plus, if you look at the kana chart you will find quiet a few that have been dropped due to either double usage or similar.
Kana and Kanji serve very distinct and different uses in the Japanese language.
Cheers.
Please! :D
I just said that if it was to be written in hiragana or katagana. ******! Take it easy, dude.
Besides, it's my second language. I do know what I'm talking about here! :D
Laughing Cow
03-23-2003, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by Sho
Please! :D
I just said that if it was to be written in hiragana or katagana. ******! Take it easy, dude.
It looks like you are the guy that is tense.
Why would you want to write the word in hirakana, unless it is to make a point to win an argument??
When there is none.
:D
Have fun.
Heh, sorry dude. I was just trying to make an example. :D
You can write any word using the kana system - whether it's kunyomi or onyomi. There is a correct way to spell words which is also integrated to romaji.
Laughing Cow
03-23-2003, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by Sho
Heh, sorry dude. I was just trying to make an example. :D
You can write any word using the kana system - whether it's kunyomi or onyomi. There is a correct way to spell words which is also integrated to romaji.
No problem.
It also depends on which system you use for romanisation, at the moment there are 2 accepted method.
The older one is still used by many foreign countries like the USA, the one used in Japan now differs quiet a bit from that one.
Seeya.
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