the destruction of southern and northern shaolin

[GARRA DE TIGRE]

i've wrote this topic before , but without luck .
i am collecting info about differents stories about northern and southern shaolin destruction .
in particular . i want know about the story of traitor monk ma ninger who broke the ancient lantern inside shaolin temple .

do you think this story belong to southern or northern temple legend and why ?

another question :

i 'v found 2 versions of the 5 ancestors . the 5 northern survivors that search a hidden place in the south ( gee sim , ng mui , bak mei , etc ) and the southern fukien temple 5 survivors .
do you know another versions about this story point ?

ps : i am very open about this and i am not searching the only one true legend . i am searching for differents versions of this amazing legend .

[ed78]

sorry i can't help you with your question but the story sounds very interesting. Could you tell a little more of it.:)

[tparkerkfo]

Hello,

This is a bit of an interesting topic. I think the harder you look, the more stories you will find. Many of thes stories were told orally over the years and are bound to change considerably. There were a lot of pulp novels that distorted truths or just plain old made things up...as they were novels. Many of these stories have grown and taken lives of there own. Often they have people learning from figures they had no contact with or were even dead. So be careful.

I have heard several different stories. Sometimes there are 5 surviving monks. Other stories state that the monks survived with a few diciples. Others say a lot of people survived, but they only tell the 5 main monks. Other stories tell of different individuals. There is a martial version with the 5 common monks. There is also apparently a version told with in Hong Kong Associations that tell of totally different individuals.

Then we come to the stories of the Temple...especially the southern one. Todate there is no solid evidence that a southern SHAOLIN temple existed. There indeed were other temples, and even ones that practiced martial arts. But no Shaolin temple seems to exist. THere is a temple that many think might be it, but there is almost no evidence that supports a connection to Shaolin. It sounds more like an educated guess.

To help narrow your search abit, you might want to specifiy if your looking for legend information or historical I would love to see some historical works, though since I don't read the language, it would do me little good. LOL.

Good luck
Tom
________
Iolite Packaging (http://www.vaporshop.com)

[ironbridge#9]

as far as monks names..and ive talked to my sifu about this and he agrees it sounds like a good theory...but as in all oral history..who knows the real truth..names might be differant because these people used differant names..remember they were being hunted ..they could have changed there names at times to protect there identities..its likely they would have used differant names depending on where they where..who they were talking too. etc..i dont know how true my theory really is but its just that..a theory..but id like to hear more of what you find..history always interests me..

[GARRA DE TIGRE]

ironbridge ,ed78 , taparkerkfo

i think if we start this type of info search , looking for the authentic true , maybe we don't find nothing .
i think legends are great , in the same way , the truth is great .
i 've found a lot of info in the master frank yee hung ga web site .

please check it , and write again .

[tigercrane_ch]

hi to everybody

@GARRA DE TIGRE

look my sifus website www.shaolin.ch maybe you find some answers

best regards

[GeneChing]

...it's way too big of a question.

But here's a thought for you. The destruction of the southern temple figures prominently in both southern KF legend and the legends of secret societies like the Tiandihui. They always refer to five survivors, but those five are completely different in these two traditions. In the Tiandihui, the monks are Cai, Fang, Ma, Hu and Li and this story is part of what is known as the tale of Xilu.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Gene and all,

Good point. I have not heard this specific story....probably why its secret. LOL. There is probably a shred of truth in these stories, but remember how they were told and in what context. Things were different back then. We tend to gravitate to martial arts stories, for obvious reasons. But it amazes me how much people take them serious, as 100% fact. There are enough variations alone to discredit the any story as even being close to true, though it is possible that parts of it may have a link. The martial community can't keep straight what happened 20-50 years ago. Huge fall outs occur over misinformation at less than 100 years ago. Yet we are suppose to beleive these stories? Many pulp novelist popularized many of the famous stories we have today. SO I think we need to look to other sources outside of martial arts. We need to find historical references as well as other references that must exist elsewere.
________
Bmw s65 history (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_S65)

[Yum Cha]

Well, nothing like getting to the point, eh?

English isn't the only language to use allegory, symbolism and metaphore. I'm one of those awful people that thinks the "5 Elders" is simply a fairytale. Being illiterate in Mandarin or Cantonese, I can't remember the book, but I'm told it comes chapter and verse from a classic Chinese novel.

Its one of those fairytales that we all really want to believe, I agree. Pak Mei even has a really good part in it...I've heard many versions <grin>. But the facts are so tightly woven with the fantasy that it really provides only a set of principles and morals worth tally, as opposed to a solid history.

Southern Shaolin appears to me to be more than a concept, or a collaboration than any particular place. Most of the "Southern" Shaolin is really Hakka art. There's a strong Daoist vein, Shaolin was Buddhist. The "Fall" was all about ming/ching conflict.

Yes, Yes, I know they are digging up the ruins of one right now and rebuilding it, sorry, not sold. Its great that the Government is behind Martial Arts again, many of my Pai did time in "re-education" during the cultural revolution for their art.

Northern, well, I'm willing to believe, but the current incarnation is cut of a different silk robe.

Please don't think me jaded in my opinion, because there is an up-side. That being that within us all is the opportunity for excellence. It doesn't take "super-human" characteristics and fantastical powers. It simply takes hard work and devotion. The arts are alive in our hands not, not shadows of former legendary prowess.

[GARRA DE TIGRE]

yum cha


i am with you in some things . i am also believe in southern temple like a concept , maybe too legendary and fantastic like the search for " el dorado " ( the mytical inca city of gold ) or the search of the holy grial . but these legends motivate a lot of human passion in the past . too many deaths and time .
they are so fantastic and impossibles that his existence can be true .
sorry , but i am a child , about this .
i need to believe in southern temple and i got to believe in southern temple .
maybe you , from your esmerald city of oz could understand me .

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Yam Cha and Tigre,

Good to hear others are also taking a rational approach rather than an emotional one. I hate the idea of our stories not being ture, but hey, it doesn't change our art at all. They are still as good with or without the stories.

I think people become upset and disalussioned when they are told the story is not true. Their sifu "lied" to them or something similar. But I think that is the wrong approach. They are oral stories and are fallible.

Though the stories may or maynot be true, I think there IS value in the old stories. They tell us something. The wing chun legend is particularly usefull. But I think others are as well. What purpose do the stories server for you? Is there any thing you can learn about your art in regards to the story? I suggest there are messages and a learning opertunity embedded in them.

Tom
________
Kitchen Measures (http://kitchenmeasures.com/)

[Yum Cha]

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. There are lessons in the stories, even if the truth may be hard to find.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

I would not be so quick to discount the legend of the SST...after all everyone including distinguished scholars and archaeologists thought the legend of Troy was a myth and that Troy never existed, until one persistant person who believed it was true, discovered the city of Troy and proved the myth a fact.

GHD

[tparkerkfo]

Hi GHD,

That is a good point. However, that is only one example of a few. It is still the exception and we cannot say that because Troy existed, that the southern Shaolin temple did. The southern Shaolin temple existed about a hundred or so years ago, yet there is no trace in ruins or historical documents. No one has a clue where it is, except for this recent excavation. And even the people working on it have doubts. Troy was well over 2000 years ago. But it did exist in several historical and mythological texts. Heck, the northen temple went through several distructions and it still exists.

I would feel much more warm and fuzzy about the temple if people could point to evidence outside of martial arts tales. Show it in writtings or in other disicplines.

Tom
________
Brazilian recipes (http://www.cooking-chef.com/brazilian/)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Hi TFO

Info I have is the SST's last destruction was about 300 years ago.
Anyway the Troy example was only an analogy to say we should keep an open mind and that where there is smoke or has been smoke...then there was at least some fire.

GHD

[South Paw]

The story of the traitor monk Ma Ninger or Ma Linger belongs to the Northern Shaolin Temple because according to the legends it happened there.

[GARRA DE TIGRE]

south paw :

this story is tell in both shaolin temples history .
and this is the topic

everybody :


any one knows where i can find good info in the net about shaolin monks vs lama fighters and shaolin monks vs wu tang fighters ?

[South Paw]

That the story is connected to the Southern Temple is true:
5 monks escaped the burning of the North Shaolin Temple. With them fled two other monks. They went to Fujian. There a new Shaolin Temple was founded.
So far the legend.

[GeneChing]

... watch our magazine. We have an insightful research piece on nan shaolin that should answer a lot of questions scheduled for an issue very soon.

I know, I'm a tease, but if we didn't have Kung Fu Qigong, you wouldn't have this forum, so subscribe now! :cool:

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Gene,

I will keep an eye out for it. I know you can't say much, gotta keep us willing to buy the mag. LOL. But, can you say if it is an opinion based or researched based artical. Unfortunatley most articals are supported by opinions and loose facts. I would love to find out more about the possiblility of a Nam Siu Lum temple. I would like to see real research done that can either support or dismiss the existance of the temple. Maybe there could be a series of articals talking about the myth and reality of the temple. What the stories are; where they come from; and what is known as fact.

Any way, thanks for the update
Tom
________
New mexico medical marijuana (http://newmexico.dispensaries.org/)

[GeneChing]

The article covers the dates, archeological missions, and recent discoveries. It also gives a grand overview on the new temple and what they are doing there. It was one of the strongest pieces to cross my desk in a while.

FWIW, the dominent belief in China about the origin of Nan Shaolin is alluded to in the article we published back in April 2003 (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200115.html) by Master Shan Wei. The other article I've mentioned soon to be published, reaffirms this idea. There really was no southern shaolin temple, at least not like northern shaolin. There were northern monks that came down to defend the coast that stayed at many Fujian temples, and they left a legacy that became southern shaolin. But more on this when that article comes out.

I'll be eager to hear your reactions to it.

[tparkerkfo]

Thanks Gene,

I will be looking forward to these issues. I will have to dig through my old copies to see if I have that other issue.

Just to vioce my opinions, I would like to see more articals related to historical views of martial arts rather than oral tradition. I notice that oral traditions are often contradictory to history and even other lineages, even that stem from the same source.

I do think there were "southern" temples and I think there were monks that practice martial arts at these temples. But how related were they to the northern temple? People seem to think there was an offical temple in the south linked to Shaolin. There may have been, but it seems the evidence is pretty slim. Though it is possible that shaolin monks did visit and stay at other temples. Though I don;t really know how recpetive temples are of visiting monks from different orders.

Another idea for articals may be to talk about China between the 1700's through the 1900's. Talk about the culture, norms, and political beleifs that formed the martial arts as we know them today.

Thanks for your time
Tom
________
Blonde latina (http://www.****tube.com/categories/318/latina/videos/1)

[Yum Cha]

Thanks Gene,

When can we expect that Issue to reach Australia?

Oral History, did somebody mention oral history?

Ok, just to confuse matters. My oral history has always been a bit different to everybodys else...

Suppose we go back to the period of the alleged destruction of the Southern Shaolin temple.

It that era, to shave ones head and to become a Monk was a new lease on life. Soldiers without armies or patrons would often take up the life of a monk. People from all walks of life became monks. Some for true spiritual enlightenment, some for a respite or an alternative to their current lot, some to hide.

Suffice to say, that not all monks were the same, some were much more spiritually motivated than others. Politics and military physical culture were commonplace.

As we know, there were many temples, across Southern China, some more grand, some less grand. Some more pious, some less pious, as with the monks that inhabited them, the temples took on various characters.

The Ming Dynasty had fallen, the Ching had moved in. Many Chinese nationalists believed China “occupied” by a foreign power. There was revolution in the air, and nationalism in the hearts of the people.

One stronghold of this nationalism and revolution was a Temple in the south, one often called the Shaolin temple, but the name is less important than the spirit. This was a stronghold of revolutionary fighters, dedicated enemies to the Ching. A temple less known for its religion than its politics, however clothed.

The armies of the Ching could not overwhelm the temple, whether it be for political or military reasons, one can only speculate. But there was a stalemate.

However, by using cunning and subterfuge, they managed to create a conflict amongst the temples that ended in the eventual destruction of this particular temple, and perhaps the political influence of this community of temples in the South.

[GARRA DE TIGRE]

gene ching and the rest of cantonese brothers :

anybody can help me with the translation of my topic about the 18 wodden dummies of shaolin ?

[GeneChing]

tpkfo - Thanks for your suggestion. Unfortunately, for the most part, we are only left with oral tradition. A lot of martial arts is folk style based, so we are always in a game of Chinese whispers. Much of the written documentation hasn't survived until today, and some of that which has survived is suspect. 1700's to 1900's is a rich period, but hard to document. I tell you, I'm still trying to unravel the CR, and that was only 30 years ago! But your comments are well said and I share you desire for that kind of material.

yc - I have no idea on what delays you might experience in Oz. Internationla distribution is wacky. Generally speaking, what is the delay to newsstand?

gt - which are you talking about?

[GARRA DE TIGRE]

gene ching :


i 've post a tread in this forum about the cantonese translations of the 18 shaolin wodden dummies .
this thread have zero respònses . and for that reason i am caling for help .