shaolin ulysses

[drunkmunky]

Gene, when is the shaolin ulysses documentary supposed to come out?

[GeneChing]

I left that project because I didn't care for the direction that it took, particularly with the concluding segment in Vegas with my martial brother, Russbo...

[Lokhopkuen]

I thought it was pretty cool.
The guy gets a chance to talk about the direction of Shaolin in America and he talks about HOOTERS as his church! Is he really a doctor?? :confused:
What Fu**ing idiot, I am still laughing in disgust:rolleyes:

Lokhopkuen

[GeneChing]

Doc is my martial brother. He is a real doctor, now retired after a rather tragic car accident. How would you feel if you were working on such a project, and they decided to make your firend look like an idiot, especially after you where the one who got that friend involved (as well as others.) Check out Doc's site for better portrayal of him - russbo.com. He's at Shaolin as we speak...

[Lokhopkuen]

It seemed like he did a great job on his own but film is an interesting media and a clever director can make film look like anything.

Peace

Lokhopkuen

[Lokhopkuen]

It seemed like he did a great job on his own but film is an interesting media and a clever director can make film look like anything.

Peace

Lokhopkuen

PS
the website is nice.

[GeneChing]

...I have to watch myself on this a lot. You have a story to tell. The danger zone is when you begin to tell a story that hurts someone for no other reason then to heighten the drama. That crosses the line. Doc is doing some great work to promote Shaolin - he's very earnest about his work, and I'm sorry that his reputation was tarnished. Sure he's got his human side, he likes hooters. But is that really appropriate given the context of Shaolin in such a documentary?

[Lokhopkuen]

I was tempted to write you private but since I made a public statement I think this is the the best place to respond.
I have great respect for you Gene as my gung fu brother (cousin) and my friend. I am sure Doc is a great guy and I would love to meet him sometime. The film was actually really funny in a way Martha and Mei ling(?) did not intend. I saw it at the LA film festival and was amused, enlightened and disappointed. I have worked in film and understand what a difficult task it is to shape the flavor and tone of a film. I takes great scope and imagination. As far as your comment about "hightening the drama" I find that a bit disrespectful. This is no game to me, is this a discussion forum or not? Am I entitled to my opinion. I am not some little person trying to start some crap, I saw a thread about S. U. I responded with my opinion. "You mentioned you should watch yourself on this one" please don't. Let it flow express yourself brother.

Anyway

Truly I was kind of ****ed with the way Doc came across and with the Film makers for even allowing the interview to be filmed in HOOTERS. My statements are however my opinion only and I have no intention to offend you my friend and I commend you for supporting your friend so strongly.

Peace

Lokhopkuen

[GeneChing]

You are misreading me, cousin. I meant the documentary was heightening the drama, not you. And I respect your opinion on the doc, especially since you are one of the only ones who have seen it so far.

I'll admit that I'm pretty defensive on this project. Shaolin, as you know from so many our prior conversations, is as close to my heart as it is yours. Few people have worked as hard as me to shine a positive light on Shaolin. The filmakers knew this. In fact, they are personal friends - Martha was even a past associate, the former editor of this magazine. So when the direction of the project took a negative turn, especially towards some monks and personal friends, that was quite difficult for me. Still is. Additionally there was the business conflict of interest. It was partially funded by TC Media, since they were paying for some of my time as well as providing resources. That obligation of return from the filmakers to TC Media remains unfulfilled. Furthermore there were personal promises made to me on the project that were broken. So given all this professional and emotional baggage, it is impossible for me to see this documentary and not feel negatively towards it.

Is that enough flowing for you? ;) Any more would require you to by me some beer.

[Lokhopkuen]

Wanted to buy you beer in Texas Brother but you move too fast. Haha! next time you are in LA lets do it or I will be at Berkeley in the Wu Shu fest.

Thanks Gene sorry for the misunderstanding and best wishes to Doc.

Peace

Lokhopkuen

[GeneChing]

You mean I got too jerked around by various masters like I always do at tournaments. ;)

I'm hoping to be at Berkeley, but I'll be just returning from China, so I'm not sure what condition I will be in and if I'll be up for it. I'll let you know if I'm going to be there the week before - I'll post it on the main forum.

[GeneChing]

Here's the website (http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/shaolinulysses/index.html). Despite some of my earlier disgruntled comments, I do wish the best for the filmmakers and the project. Now that some two years has passed since I worked on that, I've lost my attachment to the project. I'll be interested in your reactions.

[dimmakseminar]

Dear Mr. GeneChing:

It is apparent that this tape has been trading in the underground for a period of over 6 months. Certainly an avid Shao-Lin-ist such as yourself has seen the finished product, or that which is purported to be the finished product.

Held in special astoundment is the young girl - admittedly just a youth - that speaks of the beloved way of Shao-Lin in terms of being on television, impressing her friends and calcitrating gluteus maximus. The segment on Mr. Russbo was not surprising, except that he drives a really nifty jalopy. He has certainly come a long way from the old yellow rattletraps he hacked in NYC.

The Monks are all impressive in their skill and fortitude, and I vow to one day matriculate under their tutelage.

Many respects,

dimmakseminar

[GeneChing]

...but not the final version.

"calcitrating gluteus maximus" is a great term. :cool:

[Songshan]

Hey Gene! It's been a while. Just wanted to say hi and post that this documentary is scheduled to air on PBS October 29, 2003 at 10pm (CST) here in Houston. I too have been reading about the current events regarding this documentary some good some bad. I guess I will just have to see how it turns out before giving a honest opinion. I have not seen any versions of it yet either. I been out of the loop for a while taking care of some personal matters but still squeezing time in to train. I had no idea Martha left her post with Kung Fu Magazine. I would like to get in touch with her if there is a number or e-mail address though.

Gene just wanted to also say that I agree with you and that you have really promoted Shaolin in a postive way. I can relate to you on how you feel regarding friends and associates and sometimes being caught in the middle. I think we have talked about some of the issues before when you were in town. I hope to talk to you soon and one of these days compare some notes

:p

Adam

[blooming lotus]

Im sure its unlikely but will it be available on free to air in china, does anyboby know? If not where can I buy this doco? It sounds like a must see. a little contreversy and a decent if one sided and slightly ...?manipulated perspective on Shaolin..however we are all grown ups and Im sure will find what truth we looking for.

[Brad]

I just saw it on pbs... pretty much focused on brief looks at each of the monks, talking to them about their goals and motivations for spreading Shaolin in the U.S. and some of their experiences. It was interesting seeing the different personalities of each monk and the different ways they go about teaching. Seemed almost like an ad for Shaolin at times. It seemed to hint of how the monks may be, I don't know... "corrupted" I guess by coming to the US, but it didn't really explore the idea too much. My favorite segment was the interview with Li Peng(?), the ex-monk with the wife & baby. He seemed to be really genuine and honest, and his interview had a much more personal tone imo. A couple "haha" moments like the dude talking about spirituality in the middle of hooters restraunt, and the little girl talking about beating up bullies and becoming famous. The cops trying to do chin na was kind of funny too, lol.

[WanderingMonk]

After seeing the show on PBS, it wasn't too bad. It was obvious intended for a western audiences. It might have focused in on certain things to make it more "spicy". But, that can be overlook.

It showed America's effect on the monk/ex-monk and the monk's effect on some of their students. I think it was a reasonable presentation.

Overall, these monks came through as interesting people that I would like to train with.

wm

[Ted]

I didn't like the way they blurred, slowed down, and even the angles from which they shot most of the kungfu scenes. I think they tried to spice it up and they actually ruined it. It also appeared that Guolin was the only one that was still some what living as a strict buddhist.

IMHO... It wasn't worth the long wait. But over all it was OK.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by Ted
It also appeared that Guolin was the only one that was still some what living as a strict buddhist.


According to the documentary, most of these "monk" didn't start off as monk. They were good kung-fu guys who got enough recommendation letters to join the rank of "warrior monk". Hence, they are really just talented guys who got identified and sent to shaolin for "further training". So, it begs the question, did they take buddhist vows to become monk in the first place?

Guolin came from a buddhist family, hence it was more natural for him to become a real monk.

The others choose differently. Yet, shaolin's experience benefited them. One of the Huston monk talked about how he was challenged by a Zen master. The zen master challenged the young "monk" to look at himself closely and see how he lacked spiritual development. This forced the young "monk" to re-examine his life and change his way.

So, in a greater sense, the story is how shaolin experience change these young men; how these young men are sharing their experiences with America, and how America changed them.

wm

[Brad]

I was a little surprised that there was no mention of Yan Ming

[Buddha_Fist]

Originally posted by WanderingMonk
The others choose differently. Yet, shaolin's experience benefited them. One of the Huston monk talked about how he was challenged by a Zen master. The zen master challenged the young "monk" to look at himself closely and see how he lacked spiritual development. This forced the young "monk" to re-examine his life and change his way.

Suxi, the "Zen Master", was an older Shaolin monk from the same temple.

[GeneChing]

Yanming declined to participate. Adam looked good though ;)

BL: You can get the video or dvd through pbs.

You'll find more on Lipeng in our past two Shaolin specials,

2003 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=397) and 2002 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=144). He's also featured in our Benefit Gala DVD (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/dvdca108.html) alongside Guolin and Xinghao.

[Buddha_Fist]

Gene,


it seems to me that the monks that appeared in Shaolin Ulyses, performed the same forms as in the Gala video. Is there a reason to it?

BF

[GeneChing]

Guolin almost always does iron body demos. Lipeng often does ditang, or something with a lot of ditang moves. Xinghao used to perform other things, but in recent years he's really been into two-handed sword. Each performed what they liked most a that time, just like anyone might.

[ninja]

This documentary came out months and months ago. Gene, you said you saw 2 different versions. I was hoping they would have improved it. So much has changed since it first came out. Hengxin has had his own school for 2 1/2 years now. Li peng doesn't live in Brooklyn anymore. Xing Hao and Deshan have split up. Xing ying is now in texas also with his own school. Some new and young teacher from China is now with Deshan. Doc now has his school up and running in Vegas and xing wei is the teacher not xing hong. The video is so out of date.

[GeneChing]

The first version was really bad and I'm so happy the came out with the second version. What was televised was essentially the second version.

Filming was wrapped in 2001. In fact, some of our crew got delayed coming home from China due to 9/11. Given production time and some delays from PBS, it took a while to get it aired. It's a snapshot of Shaolin USA 2001, and Shaolin has been moving very quickly, so it may seem late for those in the know, but really, what were the filmmakers supposed to do? Update it with every change? It would have never come out then. I don't think it's at all fair to fault the project on this.

When we were filming, Xinghao and Deshan split, which is why you see them together in some scenes but teaching apart (note the student uniforms are different.) Xingying was filmed, but that footage was not used. Xingfeng (now with Deshan) didn't come until Xingying and Deshan split, which was after production wrapped. Lipeng moved only this year. And Doc never really planned to start a school with Xinghong, he's always been set on our master, Decheng. Xingwei is Decheng's disciple.

FWIW, the filmmakers were planning to make a longer version to distrubte to film festivals. Since it was funded by a grant from ITVS, the rights for this were a bit nebulous, but they seemed to think they could get around this. They certainly have enough footage that wasn't used. We'll see if they pursue it.

[fanzi]

"So, it begs the question, did they take buddhist vows to become monk in the first place? "

Li Peng says in the documentary that he doesn't know anything about Buddhism, yet he was a "monk" for so long. That doesn't make any sense. He, like many other "monks" just trained kung fu. It seems like having a monk name and a zen master is just a formality for training at the temple. Also, from Guolin's size, it's hard to believe he doesn't eat any meat. The vegetarians I know who do train kung fu are all skinny.
I also don't buy the "martial monk" title being used by monks like Yan-Ming and others as an excuse to drink, eat meat, and have sex. It seems that the term "martial monk" or "warrior monk" means that they trained kungfu at Shaolin, and may or may not have studied buddhism. To use the title of monk, one should be strict to virtues and the discipline of Chan Buddhism. Otherwise be honest like Li Peng and call yourself ex-monk, or that say that they've trained x number years at Shaolin temple.
Anyone who knows the recent history of Shaolin Temple knows there is a lot of corruption, politics, and contraversy there. It is unfair to play off the Shaolin monks in America as a part of the same united ancient tradition. They are parts of different factions and some are barely civil to each other. Some are just plain dishonest.
Shaolin has a marvelous history and there are some honest good masters from there, but I am disappointed at seeing people blindly giving the "monks" so much undeserved reverence.

[ninja]

You miss understand Li Peng. Anyone who has ever studied Chan for sometime would never claim to actually know anything about it. Practicing Chan means to physically work hard. you work hard as a means of developing. So by him saying that he practiced 10-12 hours a day is the same as saying I practice Chan. Guolin is big. Eats meat, doesn't eat meat, doesn't matter. This is unimportant to Buddhist thinking. Guolin is a good person with great skill. Martial Monk or Wuseng is not some modern title. It's an old division. Whether they call themselves monks or not is also not important. If their kung fu is good and you want a piece of what they have to offer physically and mentally then what does their title matter?

[Songshan]

Well, I guess it's safe to say that for some law enforcement brothers there is no hope for them learning Chin na...lol :D

As for the special itself it was okay. It's pretty unique to see the other monks and hear their opinions from New York since I never have had the opportunity to meet all of them or speak to them. It gave pretty good insight on the monk's experiences and thoughts about their life in America. I think the "religious monk vs martial monk" will always be a issue or topic for discussion. Buddhism is a religion known worldwide not just for being associated with a religious monk. You can be catholic, christian, etc. without being a priest. You can be a buddhist without being a monk, it just depends. I do believe that how you compose yourself is looked at very closely as actions speak louder than words. You are what you represent. Li peng was very open straight forward and voiced his opinions. But all in all it was fine and neat to watch.

[GeneChing]

The Wuseng (martial monk) thing is tricky, definately. In China, there is a seldom discussed tradition known as jiurou heshang (wine/meat monks). They exist beyond Shaolin, although Shaolin is currently one of the most well known example in the west. There are mythic exmaples of monks who eat meat, then vomit live animals, or drink wine, then vomit gold on to Buddhist statues. Now before anyone asks if Shaolin monks can do this, just don't, that's a silly question. But FWIW, Shaolin is not unique in meat eating and wine drinking monks.

Certainly, Shaolin had it's hard times and things got really loose in regard to the practices of some monks, especially of the reconstruction generation - that of Yanming, Guolin and Lipeng. Lipeng's emphasis was always martial, he was a classic wuseng. Yanming falls into this too. Neither of them are vegetarian (but neither is the Dalai Lama) Guolin is vegetarian, very vegetarian. He avoids restaurants that even serve meat. My family is vegetarian (I'm not - I'm a jiurou associate publisher ;) ) but living with vegetarians, we can tell when someone is true to it. You can get plenty big being vegetarian - it's a myth to think otherwise - just eat a lot of nuts and fat.

This issue of what defines a monk is messy because most westerners don't even know what that means. They base their conclusions on what they've seen in the movies, but that has very little to do with an actual functioning temple. Also, narrow views on what Buddhism is make things even more complicated. Sure, Shaolin has a lot of political intrigue, but so does any major temple in Asia, or arguebly, any major religious institution. There was an all out war in Korea with some of their major temples. Monks throwing molotov ****tails at each other - crazy - but part of real buddhism, or rather, buddhism in the real world. Monks are imperfect, just like any other human.

You all will have to read my next article on Shaolin, because this issue is going to get really confounding. It'll be on stand in early Dec 2003....

[freedom76]

I thought this program was done very well. I believe the point was made early on in the show that it was about culture, not so much about martial arts. I think it showed some personality of each of the monks (and ex-monk) which was nice to see. There's more to them than just kick, punch, and Buddha. How refreshing to see that brought out. I think it also showed a typical American attitude with Russbo at the end. Xing Hong's words about realizing that there is internal or spirital health that is being neglected in this country is right on. A big house and nice car can't go with you.
My wife and I really enjoyed watching this. Please pass on our compliments.

[fanzi]

Thanks for the reply Gene.

I have issues with a particular monk that I do not wish to use this forum to discuss in detail. My concern grew out of witnessing so many give so much time, energy, love, and cash to a particular monk and then be let down when he doesn't teach them but dishonestly leads them on. I don't wish to get into that here. The documentary, (besides being very entertaining) did bring up some bad feelings that I'd experienced before. Like using Buddhism as a lure to attract students, and breaking dry wooden sticks that would break on just about anyting to demonstrate iron body, and using the name of Shaolin, the most famous place in martial arts history, to attract students to a Sifu that is only mediocre in martial arts. So I should clarify that my problem is not with Shaolin Temple and its Martial Arts as a whole, but with the unethical pimping its been receiving.

But then again it's real easy for me to sit on my ass and talk sh%$ through my computer. China, and especially Shaolin have a painful recent history. When people are hungry they will do things that are unusual to survive. Hence, pimping Shaolin for money and food. At first I didn't like Yongxin because he seemed like a tyrant with purely political and financial motivations. But maybe his streamlining of Shaolin Chan Buddhism and Martial Arts will bring about greater stability and respect to the temple.

I'm out.
Peace

[mortal]

I was so frustrated by the ridicules camera work with the bulbus lens and those cheesy effects. They did all these cool forms but You couldn't even really see what they were doing. Never ever slow down the whip chain form to slow motion. Boring.
Kung fu looks good when you leave it alone

[GeneChing]

Well, I'm happy it drew such different reactions. To me, that's a measure of it's success.

[mortal]

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad it came out. :D

[richard sloan]

there are more grades between wuseng and heshang...that further complicate things...five I think, if I remember...

the character for heshang is the same for 'harmony.'

I still haven't seen this yet.

[Songshan]

I grew up watching the movies about Shaolin monks and yes even the David Carradine series. Thats where I got my first impressions of a shaolin monk and kung fu. It stayed with me for a long time. When I began training at Shi Xing Hao's school, I had to look way beyond those old movies and realize that we live in modern times and a lot has changed. I finally realized that many of us tend to have these established beliefs based on what we watch (especially on the cop shows). So I looked at those who train under one of the monks and compare them to those that do not. The ones that do not tend to be more suspicious about Shaolin. If you don't know a lot about the history of the Shaolin Temple, you really are not going to understand a lot of whats going on in Shaolin today. The Shaolin Temple exists today and has a right to continue its lineage even in modern times.

I think the Shaolin Ulysses film was clear on what the producer wanted to potray. I felt like it was more of a documentary geared towards the lives and attitudes of the monks who immigrated here rather than the Kung Fu. It was very interesting to say the least.
So Gene, any plans for a film by you???? ;)

[GeneChing]

...but as for my films, you should check out our media forum (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=26138) :p

[GeneChing]

Our forum sponsors are now carrying Shaolin Ulysses (http://store.martialartsmart.net/prmb001.html) in VHS format. If there's enough interest, we may also carry the DVD version that is to be released later this year. You'll notice that we are offering SU at a lower price than PBS, so support the forum (or support Public Broadcasting - hmm, this is sounding like a pledge break... ;))