Bui Gee

[azwingchun]

I just finished reading Terence's post on how he believes that Wing Chun principles and concepts are just guidlines and not set into stone. So, this brings me to a Bui Gee question.

I have seen or spoken to people who say that Bui Gee teaches you to break all the principles that you have spent so much time learning. Then some say that it teaches us how recover or correct our line and or other principles in the case you break them. What is your opinion? Besides the obvious that you always hear, like it teaches emergency techniques, deadly techniques and another types of power generation.;)

[azwingchun]

This also brings me to other aspects of Wing Chun that seem to break principles as we journey through the system. Such as the footwork, then it seems to change once introduced to the pole, then again with the knives (at least within our system).

Do you think that the footwork in these areas are only reserved for the knives and pole, or do you think that they translate over to the empty hands? I have my personal opinion, but am still curious how other think or use these changes.;)

[TjD]

Originally posted by azwingchun
I have seen or spoken to people who say that Bui Gee teaches you to break all the principles that you have spent so much time learning. Then some say that it teaches us how recover or correct our line and or other principles in the case you break them. What is your opinion? Besides the obvious that you always hear, like it teaches emergency techniques, deadly techniques and another types of power generation.;)

personally i think biu jee teaches you how to save your ass - using wing chun principles. on top of this biu jee shows you how to generate power in many directions and angles - turning upwards, turning downwards, left, right, etc.

it teaches you to "think outside the box" with your wing chun. when you break the more rigid rules of SLT and chum kiu (which were in place to let you learn what they had to teach you in a less complex setting), then what wing chun really is starts to shine through.

[tparkerkfo]

My vote is on power generation. If you need recovery techniques, your gonna need them early on in your wing chun career. Why wait until you have many, many years in the system. Most people, in the old days, did not learn Biu Jee. It makes no sense to me. I have heard stories from various people that lead me to beleive that it is a way to harness the efforts and power developed in the previous forms and training.

I have not learned the Biu Jee as of yet, at least not the correct way, so take my thoughts as a grain of salt. You might want to double check with TST's thoughts on the VTAA web site as he has some great thoughts devoted to the various forms.

Tom
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[Wingman]

I have seen or spoken to people who say that Bui Gee teaches you to break all the principles that you have spent so much time learning.

Learn the rules. Know the rules... only then can you learn how to break them.

So why do you want to break the rules in the first place?
As a rule, follow the rules. If the situation so requires, you may have to break some WC rules.

For example: You are in a disadvantageous position and the situation requires you to jump, or roll to the ground. Jumping or rolling to the ground might seem to break conventional WC principles. You don't normally use these techniques. But in this case, the situation is not normal. So, you may have to do what you have to do; even if it "violates" WC principles.

Does Biu Jee violate WC principles?
No. Biu Jee teaches us to use the most direct way to recover from a disadvantageous (emergency) situation. Using the most direct way way to recover from a disadvantageous (emergency) situation is a fundamental WC principle.

[Martin Foot]

For me Bil Jee is absolutely dependent on the progressive nature of the system, without having an innate understanding of all the previous forms and their application, Bil Jee has no depth & the danger of application is on the practitioner, with that understanding though one may find that the exploration of Bil Jee naturally extends the application of those principles.

[kj]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
My vote is on power generation. If you need recovery techniques, your gonna need them early on in your wing chun career. Why wait until you have many, many years in the system. Most people, in the old days, did not learn Biu Jee. It makes no sense to me. I have heard stories from various people that lead me to beleive that it is a way to harness the efforts and power developed in the previous forms and training.


I agree. If biu tze encompasses recovery, then so does dzum kiu, and SNT implicitly. Biu tze extends ones understanding and capabilities in the previously learned movements, with emphasis on total unity, timing, and flow for optimum expression of energy.

The stunningly efficient composition and progression of the sets is itself a testament to high art, IMHO.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[[Censored]]

I have seen or spoken to people who say that Bui Gee teaches you to break all the principles that you have spent so much time learning.

Any "principle" that is followed by some Wing Chun sets, and violated by others, is not really a Wing Chun principle.

Your feet don't move in SNT. Yet we all know "don't move your feet" is, at best, an oversimplification of the true principle we want to express.

QED.

:D

[taltos]

I think the principles remain consistent, they are just trained from a different perspective.

IME with the Yip Man system, at least one aspect of Biu Ji operates under the assumption that you have lost the line, or lost control of your center. I understand that there are tactical, energetic, and power generation training in the form as well, but I'm only speaking to this aspect of the form.

Since, in this aspect, you are training Biu Ji to regain control of center, it seems to me to be consistent with the rest of the system. Whether you are using Pak Da or Sam Bai Fut, you are training yourself to go to and occupy the center. The only difference here is that in SNT you train the principle from a position of equality (or, it could be argued, from a slightly superior position), whereas in BJ you train the same principle, but from an inferior/broken position instead.

Different starting point, same ending point.

At least, that's how I've always understood it.

-Levi

[kj]

Originally posted by [Censored]
Any "principle" that is followed by some Wing Chun sets, and violated by others, is not really a Wing Chun principle.

I have to agree with this.

FWIW. I tend to observe patterns and trends. In general, it has become challenging for me to find something worth debating with in your posts. There is still hope though, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[yuanfen]

Censored says:
Your feet don't move in SNT. Yet we all know "don't move your feet" is, at best, an oversimplification of the true principle we want to express.

QED.
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nihil obstat.!

Good point. You dont break wing chun principles.
One must understand the context for each major principle.
Fundamentalist inferences from principles and ignoring context makes it look as though principles are broken.
Both principles and contextual application prevents wing chun from becoming chop suey. The varying "contexts" can be developmental, the level of the individual, the structural relationshphs between the parties involved and the external
environment. "Context" is not an abstraction. With training and experience one :sees" it....or suffers the consequences.

[TjD]

coming from an Ip Man lineage (my sigung is ip ching), i'd say the assumption is more along the lines of taking control of the center, than regaining control of the center.

the biu's, the punches, the palms, in biu jee they all control the center. their tan sau nature gives you the upper hand in wedging into and controling the center, with the added benefit of still being a strike.

the quan sau section, the double lap sau section and the throw your hands above your head section are the only things that seem to emphasise regaining control of the center - and when they do, they use the same method as the earlier sections use for taking control of the center.

however, the lineages that branch from him can be quite different, but thats my take on it :D

[russellsherry]

hi guys as i understand it, bill jee is for emergancy, situations , but i always belive that if you are in that kind of trouble, that you have to use it i that manner you have probaley lost the fight.
what do you guys think peace russell sherry oh and kathy jo thanks for your help regards rusell

[azwingchun]

Thank you all for you responses. Though, not much different than I believe or expected. Just was curious if there were any that felt or were taught anything out of the norm in Bui Gee about its concepts or principles. ;)

[yylee]

train SNT and CK to cultivate structure and learn how to mobilize it. BJ takes what you've got from the first two forms into high rev. It is about speed and power.

my 0.02 cents.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Bil Jee has MORE to do with actual blatant attacking technique( ie.- the various angles of the bil jee finger strikes), and direct and immediate counters to an opponent's attack (ie.-the kan sao or quan sao sections) ..THAN it does to simply recovering from being out of position.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi all,

It seems like there are several visions of Biu Jee. Recovery, power genereation, ocupying the center, counters and blatant techniques, etc. And I don't mean to suggest any one of them absolutly wrong or right. Like all forms, I think you get out of the form what you want. It is as deep as you care to look.


Some one says that it teaches us to recover or regain the center. I would offer that we learn that from the opening of SLT and all through out it. We learn this in Chi Sau. By the time we get to Biu Jee, we should be good at regaining the center. The learning process of Chi Sau takes us from never having the center, to learning to occupy it. As we work out wit expereinced people, we will often get pushed off the center and will learn to recover...if we are to get any better.

I would be interested in how people see it as regaining the center, which is unique to bui jee? And if this form helped them in "emergency" situations? Not saying it doesn't, but just asking how they see it this way.

Tom
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[Jim Roselando]

Hello Tom,


Here are some thoughts from a Koo Lo point of veiw!

Anything in our art with the name "Biu" in it has a couple of meanings!

1) Biu means to "Dart". Darting would mean pin point precision in your execution of skills.

2) Any skills that you may see in our system, such as Biu Choi or Tang Ma Biu Jee, comes from out to in. Basically whipping from outside the center back into the center. It does not have to be just the finger attacks because the name Jee is in it. Just like in the entire Biu Jee form you can see lots of moves/concepts (open or closed hand & elbows) it is just a principle.

Sending energy to a point or going back to the center IMO.


Regards,

[azwingchun]

Anything in our art with the name "Biu" in it has a couple of meanings!


Very well put, I think many people think 'finger strikes' when they hear the term Bui Gee. But as you put it, it means much more than just a specific techniques in general, IMHO. ;)

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Jim,

Excellent POV. And in fact, I think it is consistant with what I have heard about Biu Jee. You talked about pin point acuracyand focusing energy in to the point. I have been told that biu jee is about power generation or in your terms power pinpointing into the fingers. Leung Sheung was said to be very good at this. I beleive I read TST differentiates between SLT and CK, and Biu Jee. With Biu Jee he said it was the tranfering of ones energy into the finger tips. Not sure if this is what you mean, but it seems to support that. I never did like the idea of spearing fingers. LOL. I think it was just a myth for those that haven't learned it yet. But, power (biu) into the fingers (Jee), that makes sense.

Is this the same as what your describing, or am I seeing what I want to see in your post?

Tom
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[[Censored]]

...And if this form helped them in "emergency" situations?

When someone is trying to beat me up, that's what I call an emergency. I really don't understand the POV that the Biu Jee movements are "special"; I use them regularly and unapologetically. If that means I must therefore have a bad foundation...let your eyeball tell it to my finger. ;)

Certainly, Biu Jee is no more exclusively about fingers than WC Kuen is about fists.

[azwingchun]

I agree with you, I don't make a distinction between what is considered an emergency and what is just a quick knock down type of situation. Some may say that this makes me a bad Wing Chun practitioner and possibly a bad teacher.

I look at every situation as an emergency, because I can't predict what someone's plan is for me, or what they have in their waist band or under their shirt. I don't take the time to find out. But to be fair, I do everything possible to get out of a nasty situation. I have even told people that I was a wimp and didn't know how to fight. Hey, it worked!!! I will give my opponent every chance to walk away or feel as they let me walk away. But only after this, if the fist start to fly, I make not a second thought on whatever technique is used. I gave this person every chance to leave the situation.

Now, at the same time, this doesn't mean I try to rip their throats out immediately. But, I have no hesitation for going for the eyes or taking out an arm or knee. Now, this is more speaking of a 'friendly' confrontation. I use the term 'friendly' because, you have the chance to walk away or possibly talk your way out of it. Example: maybe a drunk walking down the road, or a loud mouth at a bar.

I have and would use only what is needed in the type of situation where someone is to jump you, or where you have no chance to talk your way out. But, at the same time, I have no compassion for them either, and use whatever it takes to walk away with my life. Just my opinion. ;)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by russellsherry
but i always belive that if you are in that kind of trouble, that you have to use it i that manner you have probaley lost the fight. Russell, While I agree that it is for emergency situations. The fight is not lost, in fact the point is to recover and regain control. Then get back to the business at hand.

Matrix

[tparkerkfo]

Again... could some one explain the recovering to me and how it applies to Biu Jee as opposed to all our other training-SLT,Shum Kiu, Chi Sau?

Does any one NOT learn to recover while doing chi sau? Do you get pushed off center and then just give up? Or do you recover? So, what is special about Biu Jee recovery? Some of the early Yip Man students did not learn Biu Jee for many, many years. Others never learned it. Do they not know how to recover?

Just doesn't make sense
Tom
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[t_niehoff]

tparkerfo wrote:

Again... could some one explain the recovering to me and how it applies to Biu Jee as opposed to all our other training-SLT,Shum Kiu, Chi Sau? . . . . Does any one NOT learn to recover while doing chi sau? Do you get pushed off center and then just give up? Or do you recover? So, what is special about Biu Jee recovery? Some of the early Yip Man students did not learn Biu Jee for many, many years. Others never learned it. Do they not know how to recover? Just doesn't make sense. TP

Very good observation, Tom -- you're using the old noodle. :) Certainly we must have the skills to adjust to the opponent from the get go and can't wait until we are "advanced" to learn to recover (when we are actually less likely to need those skills!). IMO a few different things are going on in the BJ -- Jim's post is informative, and so was Hendrik's on BJ some time ago. One other important aspect that BJ pertains to are certain changes in our body-structure (that deviate from SNT and CK body-structure), which are either self-initiated (for certain specific purposes) or happens because our opponent has broken our body-structure (then the gup gao sao aspect kicks in). For example, "leaning" (bowing down, etc.) -- there are times when it can be used safely, and to our advantage; there are times when our opponent has broken our structure so significantly that the "lean" prevents our normal 'realignment' or use of our normal measures: BJ gives us the tools and theory for both those situations.TN

Terence

[S.Teebas]

t_niehoff says:

...then the gup gao sao aspect kicks in...

Whats a translation for gup gao sao?

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by S.Teebas

Whats a translation for gup gao sao?

"oh sh|t! hands"

:)

[Matrix]

BP,

You've got a way with words. ;)

[t_niehoff]

S.Teebas wrote: Whats a translation for gup gao sao? ST

burnsypoo wrote: "oh sh|t! hands" EB

LOL! Yeah, that sums it up (emergency/crisis saving hands). TN

Terence

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
S.Teebas wrote: Whats a translation for gup gao sao? ST

burnsypoo wrote: "oh sh|t! hands" EB

LOL! Yeah, that sums it up (emergency/crisis saving hands). TN

Terence

heh, it's like somesorta basic physical/intent progression. "my hand" "oh, hand" "no hand".
:)