24 Simplified Set

[cha kuen]

I'm learning the basic simplified Yang 24 form. What percentage would you say that the simplified set has of the long set? Maybe 50% of the concepts?

[Laughing Cow]

Are you talking the PRC(Beijing) 24 form??

As far as I know the shortest actual yang form is the CMC 37 one.
The 24 should only lack the repetitions contained in the long forms.

But all the concepts & principles should be there, regardless of the lenght of the form.

I can always ask my sihing for more details he teaches the Beijing 24 at the kwoon.

Cheers.

[GLW]

The simplified 24 Posture routine is based in large part on Yang style but is NOT a Yang form. It has a lot of similarities but a lot of differences.

It was intended to be a starting point and set a lot of basic foundations while removing some of the more stressful moves...by that I mean those moves that might put a joint like the knee in danger if done incorrectly.

Similarities...

Part horse's mane...arms are similar..stepping is different in that Yang does not employ the rock back and then step forward. This step is used in 24 for this, brush knee etc...

Brush knee...same except for the rock step.

White Crane...the arms are in a slightly different position and hte method to get to it is different.

Step back and whirl arms...the timing is different and 24 allows for a large leg raise.

Grasp Sparrow's Tail...similar in flow but very different in the details.

Gao Tan Ma...shifts forward in 24 and sits back in Yang.

Wave hands...the combination of stepping from side of the body is different as are the hand details.

Lower snake body...the stance is a true crouch stance in 24 and the foot does not shift as well as the hand turn facing you instead of staying palm out...

Fair lady... no 4 directions...other than that very similar.

Pick up needle ...similar but some minor details are different.

Fan through back...almost the same.

Bai Lan Chui - very different.

embrace tiger...different weight and emphasis...

So...there are enough differences to see that is is not exactly a Yang form.

[David Jamieson]

Yang short form I learned has 36 postures (37 in some schools)

Yang Long form I learned has 108.

I never learned any other Yang stuff besides these two forms.

The short is an abbreviation of the long with much of the same content but less repitition on left and right sides. Kinda like if you didn't have enough time to do the long, you could do the short and still get your training in.

cheers

[redfist]

tai chi is not a form it is a concept,the order of movements or amount does not matter,

what does matter is the quality and consistancy of your practice,

100%,behind every motion,if i must use a word.

the entire 108 is represented in the 24 form,
depends on your view.

[apham4]

I really wouldn't go so far as to say that the entire 108 traditional set is represented in the modern 24 set. I used to train wushu for some time before getting some knee injuries and then moved to training in taiji. I was initially exposed to what I tend to call modern or beijing style taiji, but I've come to start referring to it as wushu-taiji due to the similarities between the modern set (24,48, etc) and the modern wushu competition routines. The body mechanics for both of these tend to be the same in stance and posture with some slight differences in the wushu-taiji in that a bit more emphasis is placed on full/empty, open/close, etc.

I agree with redfist in that taiji could be considered as a "concept" or a "set of principles". I would also agree with redfist that the order of movement is not as important as the body mechanics and the structural integrity of each movement, but from my own experience and observation of having trained in over 3 years or wushu-taiji, that it really depends on the instructor. For instance, if the instructor is trained on taiji principles, you'll receive a different take as opposed to the instructor being trained in "competition style". To me, it really depends on what you're looking for.

Initially, I was very happy studying the competition style (wushu-taiji) and enjoyed it immensely due to the work involved in maintaining low postures and such. I probably would have continued training in wushu-taiji until I had to relocate for work. In doing so, I found and trained with a former national korean gold medalist in taiji. To me, it just got to the point that a lot of the movements in the "competition set" are done for "aesthetic appeal" without too many thoughts on structural integrity and martial application. To me, once you've trained in the competition sets for some time, it just get's to the point where you're learning different choreography.

This led me to my current instructor and he teaches a more traditional yang style form that he learned from TT Liang. He's actually one of the few "disciples" of Liang. Anyhow, he refers to it as the 150 yang long form but it's also known as the Yang 88, 103, or 108, depending on counting conventions. Initially, I picked up on the sequence pretty well, but when it got done to the nitty gritty on details and principles, it was a whole world apart from the instruction given by the "former gold medalist". I'm very happy that I've found my current instructor.

This topic actually reminded me of an article that Paul Lam wrote in regards to the 24 form. I'll paste a few snippets below:

==========================
It is well understood that not many people are willing or able to spend two hours per day to practise Tai Chi. Since most practitioners use Tai Chi for health improvement, there is no need for doing this. This is not to say the fundamental principles and the intrinsic power of the art should be changed.

In order to popularise Tai Chi; the Chinese National Sports Committee had authorised the country's four most renowned Tai Chi experts to compose The 24 Forms. Based mainly on the Yang style, and by eliminating many repetitions and retaining most of the essential principles of Tai Chi, the 88 Forms was condensed to only 24 Forms. The 24 Forms is easier to learn, to remember and practice, the whole set takes around five minutes. A busy person can do three rounds in 20 minutes (including warm up exercises). This will be adequate to improve and maintain good health. Most clinical studies on the many health benefits of Tai Chi are based on people practising this set of Forms. The 24 Forms very quickly became the most popular Forms in the world.

From the following source (http://www.taichiproductions.com/articles/display.php?articleid=4)
==========================

In any case, I think the modern sets are good for people to get an introduction to taiji. To me, without incorporating the internal principles of taiji, forms are just empty movements tied together in a nice choreography. IMO, taiji incorporates mind/body/spirit which could lead to the integration of meditation/health/martial. I would try to look for something that incorporates all of these aspects.

Just my thoughts.. HTH.
A.

[Laughing Cow]

My experience is similar to apham4.

My first IMA style was "health orientated" even though we did push hands and weapons training too.

My current Sifu lays heavy enphasis on the TJQ principles and basics.

It is like learning to swim in a small Pond and than trying to swim in the ocean.

Progress now feels a lot slower, but the training is a lot tougher.
Healthwise I feel the same benefit, but the martial side and understanding of what goes into correct TJQ is mindblowing.

Just some thoughts.

[GLW]

The counting of 88 postures is NOT a traditional set. There IS an 88 Posture set that was created by Li Tianjie. It is very much a copy of Yang Chengfu's traditional routine with some modifications.

If it were in any other area, the 88 would be classified as an example of plagarism. In a college setting, it would get a student expelled or a professor fired - plagarism is basically intellectual theft.

As for being in T. T. Liang's lineage, that is Cheng Manching's set. It is in itself different from Classical Yang form. In fact, there are enough differences that many consider it s completely different style similar to classifying Wu style as different from Yang.

You also have the folks doing GuangPing variation of Yang style and they are quickly become their own style....

[wujimon]

Hi GLW, thanks for the info regarding the 88 set. Anyhow, I always thought the long sets were the same but differed in counting.

In regards to TT Liang's lineage, I've been referencing the long form in comparison to the 103 done by Yang Zhenduo and I'd have to say they are pretty different. Some of the transitional posture of the CMC form have been taken out (shoulder push, extra brush knee/twist steps, etc). In addition, a lot of the hand posture and frame is a bit different and I would contribute it due to it coming from CMC. Good points tho, GLW. I think I will have to modify my profile to reflect that it is different from the yang family set.

Would you consider the set done by Yang Zhenduo and Yan Jun to be the traditional yang set? Do you know if the Tung (Dong) family set is similar to this? It's pretty interesting how many different variations within the labeled "traditional" sets. Good info and points ;)

[GLW]

The routine that Dong, Yang Zhenduo, and Fu Zhongwen all do/did was Yang Chengfu's. In China, it is most commonly referred to as 85 Posture Yang Style.

Supposedly, Cheng Manching learned the same routine. He claimed to have learned from Yang Chengfu and then from others later. His claim about Yang Chengfu is not disputed by the Yang lineage holders such as Fu Zhongwen or Yang Zhenduo...but the amount of time and the closeness of the relationship with YCF has been (there was an article in Tai Chi magazine about this a couple of years ago.).

Dong claimed to have been working on a Yang Fast form with Yang Chengfu. He maintained that the routine was not quite finished and so he completed it. Therefore, those learning from the Dong lineage do the barehand, sword, saber, and Fast barehand.

Fu Zhongwen, Yang Zhenduo, and others maintain that the fast set was Dong's invention and that there is not one in Yang from YCF. The claim from Yang Zhenduo is dubious given his age when his father, YCF, died (9 or 10 if memory serves). The statement from Fu supporting this lends credence to Yang Zhenduo's because Fu travelled a lot with Yang, was quite close to him, and was related via marriage as a sort of nephew.

Yang Zhenduo physically resembles his father. However, while many will look at the postures in pictures from YCF and say that they are very very close, there are others who reportedly saw YCF do the routines that maintain that Fu Zhongwen was more exacting and faithful to the way YCF did the routines. In fact, in earlier years (1950's or so), a common statement meant to play down Fu was that he did NOT add anything to the system but merely strove very well to emulate his teacher. Of course, Fu took that as a compliment because that was exactly what he tried to do.

Fu's body build, while not as large as YCF, was still close enough to YSF's so that his methods could indeed look a lot like his teachers.

Dong, on the other hand, was slimmer...and had other martial background as well. So, is the difference between the two accounted for simply by personality, body build, or previous learning and other influences...who knows.

They are all doing the same routine but the flavor is a bit different for each one.

Cheng Manching, however, is very different. I have seen footage of him doing the 85 posture YCF routine. His flavor was not as strong or as solid as the other three. What it was like in person...can't say....it is at this point more of a matter of personal preference and aesthetics.

An interesting note.... Yang Chengfu at one time after finalizing the 85 posture Yang routine was quoted as stating that he felt to add anything to the set would be redundant (mind you I AM paraphrasing) and to take anything more out or shorten it would lessen the value and therefore be disastrous to the routine. He seemed to have felt that it was about as good as it could get.

In that light, Fu Zhongwen and Dong Yinjie, to my knowledge, never changed or created a shortened form. Dong had the fast set...but that is in addition to the long one.

Yang Zhenduo has created a shortened competition set...but he maintains that the long form is the one to train and that the short one is merely for competition and fun.

Cheng Manching created his 37 posture (or whtever the number) and once he had his shorter set or sets, is reported to have pretty much stopped working with the long form. Those in this lineage most often do NOT know the long set and if they do, most likely learned it from another lineage.

[redfist]

to add,

traditionally 108 is used as a numeration to siginify completion,therefore the 85 is often refered to as the 108,
nothing to do with the number of movements in the actual form.

also,the lineage inheritor was the only one to receive the complete transmission of methods,known as chung moon,and his personnel form would be the 108.

this is very rarely seen in modern times.

chen wei ming developed the 24 yang form around1955/56.he was the first disciple of yang chen fu.

yang zhen do and yang jun teach their version of the yang style
very percisely,of excellent quality,what you would expect from lineage holders,
i reccomend attending a seminar with them,as far as form instruction goes, i feel anyone training yang style would come away satisfied.

[JAZA]

I heard from a Fu Zhongwen disciple that he was hard as steel, and his movements very soft, and that he was always kidding like a little boy.

[GLW]

The counting of 85 does actually refer to the number of movements. Where the confusion on that one comes in is that things like Brush Knee are referred to as Brush Knee on both sides (1 movement) instead of 2 or 3.

Fu Zhongwen's son as a book out that ennumerates the postures in the 85 count. For the same routine, I have seen 103, 104, 108 and a couple of other strange numbers.

As for Fu Zhongwen personally, he was a very congenial person. Truly liked coconut milk :) He was bothered by a number of people who had recently come to the west claiming he was their teacher when all they ever really did was attend a seminar and have a group picture with him.

[Brad]

So who're some Fu Zhongwen's "top" students living today?

[wujimon]

Thanks for the post. I really enjoyed reading the info. I've heard a similar acct regarding CMC that you had mentioned. But from what I heard, there's been some controversy as to how long CMC spent with YCF. In addition, I've heard there are some disputes regarding the level of instruction that CMC received from YCF. But in any case, I agree with your notion regarding that it's a matter of preference and aestethics. My friend who has spent a great deal of time training in the traditional yang stye via the Dong lineage told me to be weary or of the postures.

I'm kind of curious since you mentioned that since CMC created the shorter set, then it makes me wonder how TT Liang stuck with the longer set. The sequence is very close to that of Yang Zhenduo with some slight differences in posture (YZD's looking much more "fuller"). I was under the assumption that Liang trained with CMC in Taiwan and that he practiced with him then. I've heard that are differences between CMC's US students and his taiwanese students and just assumed that to be the case here. I guess since Liang's long form is different from YZD's, then it must've been the case that either CMC added to it or that Liang supplmented his training elsewhere. Kind of makes you wonder.

Just wanted to add a link that has some compartive yang postures (http://www.speakeasy.org/~chipper/Pictures/comparitive-pics/comparitive-pics.htm) between YCF and the members of the Dong family.

Nice discussion :)

[RAF]

Brad:

Mei Ying Sheng
http://www.geocities.com/meiyingsheng/

Student: Ted Knecht
http://home.earthlink.net/%7Etwk/

Ted, at one time, lived in Columbus but is now near Cleveland. He has tapes available of Mei Ying Sheng and Mei Ying Sheng was a real disciple of Fu Zhong Wen. Ted is a very good teacher and is fluent in Chinese and knows the culture well. He is a professional translator with both experience and proper academic credentials. YOu could always visit.

You can read more about Mei Ying Sheng in the book:
Tai Chi Training in China: Masters, Teachers, and Coaches
Howard Thomas

See you at Arnold's?

[GLW]

As for Fu's students..

He Weiqi in New York learned from Fu Zhongwen as well as Madame Wang Jurong.

He Weiqi's neice, Jenny Tang, learned from Fu and also assisted him in his later years.

There are others such as Wu Xiaoping in Houston. She learned from her parents, Madame Wang Jurong and Dr. Wu Chengde as well as from Gu Luxin, Ma Yuehliang, Wu Yinghua, and Fu Zhongwen.

Fu's lineage is a bit harder to find in the US.

Dong's lineage is easier.

Many in China felt that Fu and was more of a successor due to learning for a longer time and assiting YCF than many others...but Dong was qlose to him as well.

Many that claim connection to Yang Zhenduo learned in seminars or a month here or there in trips to China...

So, the real thing on lineage starts with who you learned from...but doesn't end there. There is also how long did you learn, how close were you to the teacher, and did you truly understand what was taught and learn it well or did you muddle through.

bottom line - if you are happy with a teacher and are getting benefit from classes and not getting ripped off or led into a cult...then be happy.

If lineage and exact correct method is important to you, work on basics while you look for the perfect teacher. AND...when you find them, be prepared to move to them. The mountain will NOT come to Mohammed.

[Repulsive Monkey]

T.T.Liang did learn his form from Cheng in Taiwan. It was after they had been in America for a while that thet parted company. Unfortunately I feel it was Cheng's American students who remained doing Chengs stuff after his eath which caused a lot of disinformation and disruption especially with Liang. Liang like all of Cheng's Taiwanese students were taught the Yang short and Long forms. Cheng taught his 37 posture short form pretty much just to the American students and a simplified sword form.
I don't want to upset people here but the American students of Cheng did not get as much as the Taiwanese disciples. This could be why the remaining Taiwanese disciples of Cheng who still live in America tend to dissasociate themselves from the American branch.
As far as amount of time spent with Yang, i've read quotes of the Dong family that thought Cheng spent only 6 months with Yang, but the truth is more like that he spent about 5-7 years in total. After Yang Cheng did not go off and study with anyone else, Tai Chi-wise anyway. there is always the account that he was not looked upon too well by the Yang's because it was found out that he had studied for a while with someone else while under the tutelage of Yang, supposedly a Taoist monk. This, if irrefutable, could constitute the stigma that traditional Yang sty;list have inherited against Cheng, prehaps!!?

[wujimon]

Hi R.Monkey,

I always thought there was a difference between Cheng's american and his taiwanese students, but never had it verified. There have been some students who have trained under american students of Cheng that have come to my current school and they do say there are some differences between what they're taught and what my current teacher learned from Liang.

Thanks for the info.

[wujimon]

Ohh.. just wanted to post a linke that I had found while searching for comparisons between CMC and YZD.

See the link below, pretty interesting:

http://www.sataichi.com/compare.html

[mtod1]

Hi all.

cha kuen, sorry I can't answer you q? as i''m only about half way through this form. But, here's a couple of hopefully useful sites for you to check out that have video, pix, txt etc that cover the 24.

Seeya

http://www.chentaichi.com/

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~maa1/chi/netguide/shformenter.htm

http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head8e/index.htm

http://www.gilmanstudio.com/OnLine_Class/Lesson03.htm

[GLW]

The difference between those who learned in Taiwan and the Americans...well that may also be the difference between the Chinese and Anglo students. There is a typical approach to teach watered down to non-chinese that may be in effect with Cheng Manching....

"As far as amount of time spent with Yang, i've read quotes of the Dong family that thought Cheng spent only 6 months with Yang, but the truth is more like that he spent about 5-7 years in total. "

This 5-7 year account is from Cheng and his group in Taiwan. The refutation came from a number of Yang chengfu's closer students including Fu Zhongwen and if memory serves, some of the dong Family. similarly the Yang family at this time do not seem to regard him as being in their lineage.

Interestingly, I HAVE seen film of Cheng doing the traditional set. It may have been what he was showing or any number of reasons (he may ahve been just appeasing the filmer so not showing his best) but it did not seem to compare with people like Fu Zhongwen, or Yang Zhenduo.

[JAZA]

The disciple I'm referring is maestro Luis Pedreros, I don't know how much time he learnt form Fu Zhongwen but I think he is disciple of his son too and from others arts like Chen Tai Chi from Chen Xiao Wang and Chen Xiao Xing or CLF Luohan Qigong from Chen Yong Fa.

http://personals.ip.ictonline.es/%2byongniantaichi/fotos/LUISFUc.jpg

He is on the video:
http://www.fushengyuan-taichi.com.au/video.htm

[jon]

Here go's nothing...
Im gonna open myself up to a bit of fire probarly over this one but seeing as this is an interesting discussion and some very knowledgeable people are posting im hoping someone else may know what im talking about.
My linage has a Yang 'traditional' two man form, its a fairly long and complicated set and first contact is made when both partys meet palms with each standing in single whip face to face. From then on the form basicaly never breaks contact.

According to my sifu.
My sifu's Tai Chi comes from his family, his grandfather was a student of Yang Chen Fu in his reasonably early days and was taught along with several others buisnesmen basicaly for a large sum of money. This may sound crass but it was expected that each would be taught proparly and as such the Tai Chi is of a high level and contains all the other hall marks of the style of that time. No short form, long form of 85, short and long sword form, short and long sabre although my sifu now only practices the short, spear or staff, push hands, Doi Da (sounds like that said in Chinese) which is the two man set.
Again according to my sifu this set *was* taught by Yang Chen Fu but only to some students, he also claims this form was from Yang Lu Chan and not Yang Chen Fu's creation( yeah yeah i know). As a prime example my sifu claims YCF stopped teaching this set later in his life and even within the Yang family only YCF eldest son actualy practiced it. My sifu believes this was mainly due to the intervension of the govenment in many Kung Fu schools and YCF not wishing to come under to much scuritiny changed quite a bit of the outward apperence of what he was teaching. This would also be around the same time YCF's postures became much larger and he stopped performing the form with any fa-ging in public.

Ive read elsewhere that this set was a creation of one of YCF's students. The only thing i cant understand here is my sifu's grandfather learnt from YCF directly so i cant get this link.
The other thing which supports my sifus claim is by simply looking at the set. Its complicated fairly fast contains fa-ging and can be done in multiple ways to try and offset your partner. The circles are smaller and there is is a fair amount of actual punching and striking as oppossed to just pushing and pulling.

Im just interested if anyone has any experience with this set, i only know what ive been told. Ive read some other explanations and know of some other linages who practice this set including (ive heard) Yang Shao Hao's linage.

Im not trying to imply that what ive stated here is the gospel truth, its simply what ive picked up from broken conversations with my sifu. My sifus english is far from perfect and my Chinese is non existant so there is of course also a chance ive misinterpreted some of this sets history.

Anyway, anyone else know anything about this?

[Repulsive Monkey]

How strange that one of Yang Cheng Fu's best and his first and eldest disciple Chen Wei-ming had nothing but good things to say about Cheng and knew of Cheng spending more than months but years with Yang. Yang cheng fu trusted and respected Cheng Wei ming and I feel that his accounts , admittedly not in great detail or length, seem to contradict Dong and other "CLOSE" disciples of Yang. I do respect Fu Zhong-wen and Dong Yijing and there are wiothout a singluar dount good students of Yang, but their animosity towards Cheng seems less like stating facts but more like as I say animosity towards him, which intrinsically could very well give a whole slant on their comments.
This is natuarlly a lot of conjecture, and Cheng's martial capability were never in doubt. I cannot and do not know wht Cheng did not continue to keep Yang's form intact for all, maybe he as an individual was very much the opposite of someone from the east hoodwinking students from the west, who knows? I think more than hoodwinking, Cheng actually provided for his American students what he felt they could cope with otherwise he would of tried to eleveate them to the standard of his Tawainese disciples, maybe!!?

[GLW]

One of the things that may enter into it is Cheng's like for drink.

Such things in life can and do impact one's abilities.

For example, Yang Chengfu was known to be lively and powerful and able to raise his legs high in single stance and kick. However, due to his weight and health, his abilities toward the end of his life lessened.

Cheng's may have softened due to his choices. He may have shown earlier students one way...lost some of his abilities later...and later students another way.

I had one teacher that had hip problems. My group began learning while he did not have the trouble. Our stances looked one way. Then one hip was bothering him and he had a lean due to it. Those that learned then had the lean as well. Later the hips evened but were higher. Those students learning then had even but high stances....so it goes.

As for Chen Weiming you have to wonder why. Dong, Fu, and immediate family vs. Chen in words. Bad Blood...possible. Friendship with one and not another...possible.

Wu De - not willing to say anything but good because it does not affect you...very much in keeping with Chinese culture.

So...who knows.

What is sure is that there have been enough changes from YCF to Cheng's method that they are truly distinct and probably more like separate styles.

I DO question how a faithful student could modify a routine to shorten it after his teacher stated that to make further changes would be disastrous...but that is ME....again, this is fun for thought but in the end, if you like what you do, do it well, and get benefit...whatever works.

[David Jamieson]

1. Opening of Tai Chi
2. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Left
3. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
4. Single Whip
5. Step Up and Raise Hands
6. White Crane Spreads its Wings
7. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
8. Play the Pei Pa (guitar)
9. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
10. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Left
11. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
12. Play the Pei Pa (guitar)
13. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Left
14. Strike With Fist
15. Step Up, Deflect, Parry, Punch
16. Apparent Closure
17. Embrace Tiger, Return to Mountain
18. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
19. Single Whip
20. Fist To Elbow
21. Repulse Monkey: Right & Left
22. Repulse Monkey: Right & Left
23. Repulse Monkey: Right
24. Slanting Flying
25. Step Up and Raise Hands
26. White Crane Spreads its Wings
27. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
28. Needle to the Bottom of the Sea
29. Fan Through Back
30. Turn and Strike With Fist (4 times)
31. Step Up, Deflect, Parry & Punch
32. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
33. Single Whip
34. Wave Hands Through Clouds (5 times)
35. Single Whip
36. High Pat on Horse
37. Right Toe Kick
38. Left Toe Kick
39. Turn and Right Heel Kick
40. Brush Knee and Twist Step: Right
41. Brush Knee and Twist Step: Left
42. Step Across and Strike
43. White Snake Sticks Out its' Tongue
44. Step Up, Deflect, Parry & Punch
45. Right Heel Kick
46. Strike Tiger at Left
47. Strike Tiger at Right
48. Right Heel Kick
49. Turn to Double Temple Punch
50. Left Heel Kick
51. Turn and Right Heel Kick
52. Strike With Fist
53. Step Up, Deflect, Parry & Punch
54. Apparent Closure
55. Embrace Tiger Return to Mountain
56. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
57. Single Whip to Side
58. Parting the Wild Horse's Mane: Right
59. Parting the Wild Horse's Mane: Left
60. Parting the Wild Horse's Mane: Right
61. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Left
62. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
63. Single Whip
64. Lady Works Shuttles (1)
65. Lady Works Shuttles (2)
66. Lady Works Shuttles (3)
67. Lady Works Shuttles (4)
68. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Left
69. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
70. Single Whip
71. Wave Hands Through Clouds (7 times)
72. Single Whip
73. Snake Creeps down
74. Golden rooster Stands on Left Leg
75. Golden rooster Stands on Right Leg
76. Repulse Monkey: Right & Left
77. Repulse Monkey: Right & Left
78. Repulse Monkey: Right
79. Diagonal Flying
80. Step Up and Raise Hands
81. White Crane Spreads its Wings
82. Brush Knee, Twist Step: Right
83. Needle to the Bottom of the Sea
84. Fan Through Back
85. Turn and Strike With Fist (4 times)
86. Step Up, Deflect, Parry & Punch
87. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
88. Single Whip
89. Wave Hands Through Clouds (3 times)
90. Single Whip
91. High Pat on Horse
92. Cross Hands
93. Right Heel Kick
94. Strike Groin With Fist
95. Brush Knee and Strike
96. Grasp Sparrow's Tail: Right
97. Single Whip
98. Snake Creeps down
99. Step Up to Seven Stars
100. step back and Ride the Tiger
101. Turn and Sweep Lotus with One Leg
102. Draw Bow to Shoot Tiger
103. Strike With Fist
104. Step Up
105. Deflect
106. Parry & Punch
107.Single Whip
108. Closing of Tai Chi

Now, you can break this down as many ways as you like because of the repititions (hence the short form). But there you have 108.

Tai Chi is concepts, principles and theories, but don't discount the form of it. The form is very important and in it are contained these concepts and principles through application.

You could probably even ramp up the form to more than 108 if you break it down into the minutia.

Concepts are principles are completely lost to those who do not understand the form first. This is why you learn the form first.
Then you learn the principles and theories and yin yang as you practice and move forward with this.

cheers

[count]

Sorry Kung Lek,
I don't see the Shoulder Stroke. You have to count it as it is one of the 13 postures of Tai Chi. So I think concepts and principles are more important than forms.:D Definately more important than how you "count" and I ought to know.;)

[David Jamieson]

apology accepted count.

but, concepts and theories are only words without the practice of form. You can't implement theory, nor can you understand concepts without the framework of the form.

Neither has more importance. They are all one piece. To neglect any of it is to neglect all of it.

besides, I understood there would be no math :D

cheers

[count]

Yes but principles are theories put into action. Who writes better fortune cookies here? I'm just jerking your chain.:cool: I learned all the forms but nothing helps as much as isolating the principles and drilling them over and over. Who can say how the ancients trained? I believe forms are an afterthought just like theory is an afterthought.

1. Part the mane 3 times
2. White Crane spreads wings
3. Brush knee twist step
4. Play guitar
5. Step back and repulse the monkey 4 times.
6. Grasp the sparrows tail left
7. Grasp the sparrows tail right
8. Single whip
9. Cloud Hands 3 times
10. Single Whip
11. High Pat on the horses head
12. Separate legs right
12. Double fists piercing
13. Seperate legs left
14. White snake creeps down
15. Golden rooster stands on 1 leg
16. White snake creeps down
17. Golden rooster stands on 1 leg
18. Weeving at the shuttles right
19. Weeving at the shuttles left
20. Needle at sea bottom
21. Fan through the back
22. Step up parry and punch
23. Cross hands and push
24. Apparent Closing

I guess that works as 24, unless you count sparrows tail as 4 techniques :( Now you can compare with Kung Lek's list and see what's missing. ;)

[David Jamieson]

I believe forms are an afterthought just like theory is an afterthought.

I agree. From the perspective that they (form/theory) are transmission mechanism developed following realization of principles of reality.

But, in the case of the neophyte who has not discovered the reality on his or her own, the form is paramount as is accompanying theory implemented through learning and practice applications. Form is a primary method of transmission in any manifestation in any field of study.

As for the chain yanking, Don't make me get my tiddly winks!!!

cheers

[Vapour]

My instructor is of opinion that 24 simplified set is not taijichuan. The set embodies no principles and he say he never met anyone who practice this set and can use it as a martial arts. He has slightly different opinon about 48 set. Because this is combination of other 5 style, if you decently understand all 5 style you might used it as a martial arts. But for him "if" part was big IF.

Is this 24 simplified set that bad?

[Prairie]

I don't know and almost certainly have not seen the 24-set that you're referring too. However, keep in mind that one cannot learn taijiquan as a martial art by exclusively doing forms regardless of the form done. Forms are a method of training. I gather that the 24-form you're referring to trains some things that your teacher doesn't consider to have martial content. It may train the pre-requisites like openning the joints and proper relaxation.

But again... I don't the form to which you refer.

[wujimon]

Hello.. you may want to refer to the following threads for similar discussion:

(http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19837)

(http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19386)

(http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20468)

Hope that helps.
wujimon

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Prairie
I don't know and almost certainly have not seen the 24-set that you're referring too. However, keep in mind that one cannot learn taijiquan as a martial art by exclusively doing forms regardless of the form done. Forms are a method of training. I gather that the 24-form you're referring to trains some things that your teacher doesn't consider to have martial content. It may train the pre-requisites like openning the joints and proper relaxation.

But again... I don't the form to which you refer.

Thank you wujimon for the links.

24 set is the form which every Mainland Chinese kids now learn in school and given the population of china, numerically is is the most popular form in the world. Also traditional form practioner cuss this form like bermin.

As far as I know, Cheng Man Ching 37 form is the shortest traditional form which is still considered as a complete set though other style of taijichuan do invent shortened form for learning aid as well as for the promotional value.

[Ether]

I practised the 24 step for almost 6 months and was never once told it would give me 'martial ability'. But as said below that applies to ANY form practised in isolation from complementary training. It is practised purely for health reasons. In fact, to my mind, it is suitable mainly for young children and old age pensions who would have trouble learning a longer form (for very different reasons).

There are several things that worry me (and my Sifu, more importantly) about the execution of the movements, but these equally apply to some other 'traditional' styles of Tai Chi.

Still, it was the first Tai Chi form i learnt and if it wasnt for that form I probably would not be doing the training that I am now.

[Laughing Cow]

One of my Chen TJQ teachers also runs a class teaching the 24.

Seen it, looks good when watching but there are no MA applications taught alongside with it.
They also practice the form to music.

AFAIK, the 24 was created by the PRC in the 1950's to promote health to the masses.

In Chen TJQ we are shown the applications as soon as we have learned a movement.

[GLW]

Realizing that 24 comes heavily from Yang style - there are many techniques that are almost identical to the Yang form...the changes in regards to the intent or application of the movement is minor in importance.

For example, Brush Knee and Twist Step. Mostly like Yang...so if you say 24 has no application there, you say the same thing about classical Yang style. Part horses mane - same thing. Ditto for Pick up needle at sea bottom, Fan through back, and Fair Lady weaves at shuttle.

Grasp Sparrow's tail is different in how it is done...but the intent is the same...you have to modify it a bit for the application but it is not that big of a departure considering how some applications in external systems are so well hidden you would NEVER guess how to use them from the form.

People like Fu Zhongwen HATED 24. His dislike came not from the form or really anything about it. He viewed it more as a unnecessary modification of his teacher's routine. His preference.

However, 24 is fine for what it is - a beginner routine for concept. By itself, it is enough for health but not enough to truly get deeply into Taijiquan. Then again, how many beginner level forms ARE good for understanding the deep aspects of any style?

[Vapour]

Originally posted by GLW
Realizing that 24 comes heavily from Yang style - there are many techniques that are almost identical to the Yang form...the changes in regards to the intent or application of the movement is minor in importance.

For example, Brush Knee and Twist Step. Mostly like Yang...so if you say 24 has no application there, you say the same thing about classical Yang style. Part horses mane - same thing. Ditto for Pick up needle at sea bottom, Fan through back, and Fair Lady weaves at shuttle.

Grasp Sparrow's tail is different in how it is done...but the intent is the same...you have to modify it a bit for the application but it is not that big of a departure considering how some applications in external systems are so well hidden you would NEVER guess how to use them from the form.

People like Fu Zhongwen HATED 24. His dislike came not from the form or really anything about it. He viewed it more as a unnecessary modification of his teacher's routine. His preference.

However, 24 is fine for what it is - a beginner routine for concept. By itself, it is enough for health but not enough to truly get deeply into Taijiquan. Then again, how many beginner level forms ARE good for understanding the deep aspects of any style?

Given that I haven't seen 24, I'm making wild guess. But just picking steps from particular style and puting together would be a complet mess.

According to Cheng Man Ching, taijichuan was called long hand not because of its length of the form but because of it's movement being continuous. Not only each step has meaning both from martial and health perspective, how each step shift from one step to the next step is also of significant importance. My guess is that 24 step do contain number steps of Yang form but it's was put in a way which has no meaning whatsoever between steps. That's probably one of the reaons why traditionalist often do not consider 24 step as taijichuan form. It's like a film which is so badly edited that it's make no sence at all. And if that is the case, I can't see how one can even learn a concept from 24 steps.

[GLW]

"Given that I haven't seen 24, I'm making wild guess. But just picking steps from particular style and puting together would be a complet mess. "

If that is all you did, it would be. However, the people that put 24 together knew something about what they were doing. It is a balanced set and flows very well. There are entire sections that could be done exactly like a Yang form and would work 100%.

It was aimed at being a beginning that still maintained what Taijiquan was...but not as an endpoint.


"My guess is that 24 step do contain number steps of Yang form but it's was put in a way which has no meaning whatsoever between steps. "

Not a good guess. There is still meaning there. Most of those that voiced the negative opinions, and I have asked a few of them, really have their argument boil down to "Not the way my teacher did it" Or else they have never done the other set.

"I can't see how one can even learn a concept from 24 steps."

For Yang style, you can learn the concepts from doing nothing but Grasp Sparrow's tail. It is one of the Signature moves of Yang Style, it contains parts of mst of the other movements. Drop an arm her...you have this posture, change this there, you have this other one. In fact, if you look, you can estimate a person's level to about 75 or 80% at least in their form from viewing their Grasp Sparrow's Tail ...

Their application level..well you have to touch hands for that one :)

[Laughing Cow]

I got the chart of the Yang 24 form in MS-Word document (3 pages)

Can't attach here though due to filesize.

If anyone is interested pm me with your e-mail address.

[KungFuGuy!]

This was the first form I learned in tai ji quan, it was fairly easy to learn and, in fact, emcompasses principles of tai ji. Why wouldn't it? We then moved on to the 48 form.

[yutyeesam]

I guess I'm confused as far as what one means in terms of gaining martial content. If this is the same Yang-24 that Yang Jwing Ming has a video of (performed by Liang Shou Yu), he shows the (sometimes multiple) martial application(s) of each posture.

I could see why teachers would teach this form as an introductory form, but personally, I think the form sequence is a little stale and lacks character...therefore, my "shen" is a little lower on the rare occasion I practice it, vs. the trad. Yang-37 or 108. But I don't think that has much to do with the viability of the martial applications of the form.

By no means is it complete, it's just introductory. For that matter, the Yang-37 is not a "complete" form either, compared to the 108.

Just my thoughts,
123

[Vapour]

Originally posted by yutyeesam


By no means is it complete, it's just introductory. For that matter, the Yang-37 is not a "complete" form either, compared to the 108.



As a practioner of CMC style, I'm really interested to know what, in you view, is missing from 37 steps. Don't tell me it's other 71 steps though.

For the 24 step, best thing for me is to ask my instructor for more detailed explanation. He teach Sun short form which had only 12 steps and the shortest form we do is called business man's form which is to repeat grasp sparrow's tail and he has not problem teaching it so I don't think his dislike is only to do with 24 being too short. But then, who knows?

[Brad]

Could be as simple as a communist China vs. Taiwan thing?

[yutyeesam]

Well, purely from a technical stand point, the Yang-37 doesn't have needle at sea bottom, double punch to the ears, fan through the back (although fair lady works shuttles is similar to this), hitting the tiger postures right&left, snake darts tounge....uh...that's all I can think of for the time being.

I practice the 37 more than any other form, I really like it. But if I have more time to spare, I practice the 108 because of the extra movements mentioned and there are some transition motions that the Yang-37 doesn't have (eg the motion right after fan through the back, there is a turn and chop with fist posture, and the transition right between that and the rollback-deflect-intercept-punch sequence is a nice set of movements that repeats a few times in the form...).

But at the end of the day, energy is energy. Whatever form you do, it's not enough to do just that for developing real Taiji skill. Must do standing meditation quite a lot, along with push hands and silk reeling.

Just sharing what I've learned and am still learning,
123

[count]

If you don't think there is value in something like the 24, than you just don't understand it. There are no forms, only 13 postures. Only methods of training. Only practice. What it comes down to is, "it's about how you train." Nice to respect your teachers opinion, but look at other possibilities.:cool: The Yang 24 form was created by the Yang style masters of the day collectively. It is based on Yang Tai Chi, and can be enough for some.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I could easily do an 8 hour seminar on the applications in the 24 movement short form.. Parting the wild horses mane, has at least 3 classic applications and several more variations.. Repulse the monkey has 2 distinct applications defending against a punch or a kick and several more scraping or dislodging applications.. grasping birds tail, way too many applications to list here.. and so on...

Martial applications are dependent on intent.. if you approach the issue with preconceived notions of the form being inadequate for Martial use you will likely convince yourself of that.. if, as i suggest, you approach the issue looking for those applications, being adaptable as Tai Chi implies, it is likely that you will find a goldmine.. If you have a particular dislike for the nontraditional nature of the short form it is likely that you will find problems to support your prejudices..

Personally, i teach the short form first.. that lays the foundation for the long form making it easier to teach the long form.. additionally, i have a better feeling about those that stick with the short form instruction, they are likely to stay in the program.. sort of a weeding out process (surprising how many people wont comitt to low single whip, or refuse to attend to a perpendicular spinal alignment)... The short form is what i use for my "feel-good" class, it gives those people something to take with them for a short investment of time and may inspire them to continue into the more in-depth studies at my regular school (good marketing).. My "feel-good" classes are at area gyms, health clubs, etc.. the regular school classes are traditional forms and martial in nature, but begin with the short form to weed out the "walk-throughs"..

Again, IMO, it's all dependent on principle and intent.. the forms are tools we use to train principles and hone intents..

Be well..

[Vapour]

Originally posted by yutyeesam
Well, purely from a technical stand point, the Yang-37 doesn't have needle at sea bottom, double punch to the ears, fan through the back (although fair lady works shuttles is similar to this), hitting the tiger postures right&left, snake darts tounge....uh...that's all I can think of for the time being.

I practice the 37 more than any other form, I really like it. But if I have more time to spare, I practice the 108 because of the extra movements mentioned and there are some transition motions that the Yang-37 doesn't have (eg the motion right after fan through the back, there is a turn and chop with fist posture, and the transition right between that and the rollback-deflect-intercept-punch sequence is a nice set of movements that repeats a few times in the form...).

But at the end of the day, energy is energy. Whatever form you do, it's not enough to do just that for developing real Taiji skill. Must do standing meditation quite a lot, along with push hands and silk reeling.

Just sharing what I've learned and am still learning,
123

Ookey dokey. So your answer is basically that 37 step is missing other (108-37) steps. I guess you didn't read my previous comment. My intestes was that you might have felt that 37 steps lack appraoch or principles which you find it in Yang but that doesn't seems to be the case.

CMC's idea was that 37 steps contain all the 13 movements so it is complete in itself. Purist in CMC style train only the form, two pushing hand forms each containing about 5 movementss and Yang long sword. So if you add all together, it's less than 100. CMC's approach seems to be to cut everytihing to bear minimum. Apparently, there is one CMC style master in malaysia who teach student only the form and its applications and still manage to produce competent practioners.

If one think other style is lacking because it doesn't have enough step (techinque), why not do other martial arts which has dozen or more forms and 100s of techinques.

Btw, our school practice Yang style sanshou A and B and Kwai taiji, plus dao, jian and qiang. It's a very nice form, I must say. And Kwai taiji is very cool though I'm not advance enought to do it. :)

[GLW]

Bob,

exactly so.

I teach 24 FIRST because it allows me to evaluate a student, their committment to working things, how quickly the catch on, their ability to flow, their patience...etc... AND it gives me a good venue to stress basics over and over again.

Then, if the student finishes the routine and leaves, they have learned ONE routine that is good for health, has some martial applications, and they at least know what Taijiquan is about. If all they want is health benefits, they can get them from 24 completely...just do it several times in a row.

I can also use it to see what the person's personality is like - strengths and such. For example, a person that has a problem slowing down and taking their time I may teach Sun Style...it might just fit their personality better than Yang style.

Also, if a person comes in and asks to learn a specific form, first off, they are dictating to me what my curriculum should be. That is something that a person PAYS me for the right to do. Otherwise, I choose. Second, they invariably ask to learn something that they do NOT have the required basics for. So, to teach them what they requested, I have to take it back several notches and teach them basics that 24 would have developed.

Teaching Yang long form after 24 is easier and faster than starting out on Yang by itself. It is also safer because there are some common places in Yang that if done the "Easy" way, damages a joint and is actually wrong. With 24 first, the student KNOWS these places since I have pointed them out and can compare and contrast when they do Yang. Without it, I have to work harder at making them understand what not to do.

So, any person that comes wanting to learn - say Yang long form - I tell that I CAN do that...but they must pay for 1 year up front because it is a committment I am making to them and I want them to make the same level of committment. (That is also my way of raising the stakes to make those that want me to waste my time with them leave). To date, I have never had one of them pay..fine with me...and the ones that stayed, ended up realizing early on WHY I wanted them to start with 24.

Recently, I had a student join that wanted to learn Sun Style. I told him 24 first. He seemed a bit disappointed..but started 24. He is about 3/4 finished with learning the routine. I mentioned to him that he had a ways to go to get the basics I wanted him to have for Sun style. He HAD seen other people in class practicing Sun. His response: "I'm in no hurry. 24 is easier than Sun and I am having enough challenges with it so I don't worry about moving on until I can see myself tackling the harder one" - Sometimes they DO get it. :)

[count]

*bows around* :cool: With all due respect, I think it is more important to learn long form first. IMO, there IS a fair amount lacking in the 24. But after the long form it's easy to learn the 24 and get the most out of it. I would only be interested in short form as a way of practicing when time does not permit spending an hour on form. So I think it should be secondary to long form.

Also, and for Vapours additional information, are you guys aware that there is a san shou 2-man version of the 24 as well as the sword and two-man 24 sword form?

[Vapour]

Originally posted by count

Also, and for Vapours additional information, are you guys aware that there is a san shou 2-man version of the 24 as well as the sword and two-man 24 sword form?

You aren't talking about Yang style Sanshou A and B and two person forms are you. If not, no.

For jian. we have Yang 54 step jian form but I only done short 13 step jian form. For Dao, I done 34 Yang form and we do friendly sparing with wooden sword :) but anything other than that no.

The style I started my taiji was Chen, in fact, but I switched to CMC after very short stay in Chen so my knowldge is bare minimum. I also know short Sun form (12 steps) but I learned it because we started to introduced this form for complete beginner.

Anyway, I will ask my instructor this weekend about why he has very low opinion of 24. It's can't be about 24 being too short because we have some introductory form much shorter than 24 steps. My guess is that it's to do with his dislike of wushu taiji in general but that's just my guess.

[GLW]

The problem with a long form first - ie Yang long form

The stepping in Gong Bu (front stance) as used in doing Brush knee on both sides....is a good example of they why for a short simplified form.

In this stepping, you are supposed to pivot on the heel of the front foot while pushing into the step from the rear foot while its heel is raising to do a natural step. This is a poor description but wht I am referring to is the normal one heel down, other heel up that is part and parcel of a natural step.

The most common error I encounter is people not committing to the step. Instead of shifting their weight and connecting the waist to the knee to the foot, they sort of sit back and just turn the front foot...then do a big push to do the step.

What this does is disconnect the waist from the knee and the foot. As if this is not bad enough, the end result is putting a very bad strain on the knee. Continuing in this vein over a period of time results in permanent cartilage damage in the knee.

When a person learns 24 first, they can get this connection fairly easily and then make the change in moving to the longer form.

There are a number of things like this....

For example, 24 allows or stipulates the use of Ding Bu (a toe touching stance in transitions). Yang Style as done by folks like Fu Zhongwen staes spcificly that this is NOT done.

For a beginner, there is usually not enough leg strength to do it the correct way.

Personally, I would rather teach something that is learned as a unit where they CAN do it correctly... Then when the harder one is introduced, I point out the differences and that it is a new routine that is similar but has some different rules.

In the end, it is a matter of preference in teaching styles but the guiding principle should be to do whatever you can do as an instructor to make sure you teach...but also make sure that the learning process does not damage the student (as in knee injuries).

[RAF]

In the old days, I intially learned 4 single moving postures: Brush knee, heel kicks, toe kicks, and part the wild horse's mane and went up and down a yard the size of a football field. That's all we got for 3 months of summer instruction. Later, we then went into a 32 abstraction of the Yang's form that Liu Yun Qiao had created. The final version was a 64 movement long form of Yang style not coming out of Yang Cheng Fu lineage.

Even in all of our Chen's training we learn 2 abstractions of 32 movement and lao jia then a 3rd abstraction and then pao chui. The first abstraction is done without out power and no fajing--its for structure, leg strength and relaxation. Its done in the same flavor as the Yang's form. 2nd abstraction adds fajing to some of the postures and a double-kick. The tempo and flavor changes to what we commonly see in lao jia or yi lu. The 3rd abstraction is the flavor of pao chui with lots of fajing movements and a double kick followed by a tornado kick. This fits into the last form we learn, pao chui.

I can see very much how abstractions or short forms can be useful as a training mechanism.

When I learned from Jou Tsung Hwa's early student, Tom Phillips, we started with the Yang Cheng Fu long form. On the first day, you were required to simply follow the class through the entire form (15 minutes or so). Then a second set was played and you were to follow the class. After that a small break was taken and then the form was taught in small segments, 3 or 4 movements and then linked. You did this every class and in about 6 months or so you could follow the entire long form. From there, everything was refinement. In this approach you were, in essence learning both the long form and a short form (sequential subset of the long form which got progressively longer each new class session).

I agree with GLW, personal preferences. In the latter class, many students quit because they were frustrated trying to follow the entire class over the long form and felt it would be hopeless to continue (they saw how much they had to learn, saw how poorly they could follow, and became discouraged quite easily). However, this quickly sorted out those whose heart was in tajiquan and those who dabbled. Not necessarily a good way to run a business but it produced a small, closely knit group of taiji players who were really motivated and it was exciting to be around them. They were real lovers of the art. We also did pushing hands training, single moving fajing postures, qi gong and warmups. It was my first introduction to taiji and I loved it.

However, I can appreciate using the 24 movement or any short form as a bridge to the long form and yet almost prefer learning the long form and sequential subsets simultaneously.

In my teaching experience, most people (Westerners? maybe?) have a strong need for a sense of achievement and completedness. They seem to like closure, like they got something for their money. This is where short forms work well with instruction aimed at the general public.

I also think there is some political overtones in the creation of the 24 movement which cloud the issues. Even some of Fu Zhong Wen's disciples teach a shortened version of their Yang Cheng Fu taijiquan. http://www.geocities.com/yongnian/35posture.html

[count]

I totally understand your reasoning and logic. And it's true that without proper guidance, knee injuries are a definate problem. If I were teaching though, I would prefer the long form to start for the commitment as well. No reason to make it easy on a student.;) I wonder how much you know about the stepping methods of the kuang ping version in comparison with some of the others though? You do such a good job of comparing the stepping.

Vapour, Tai chi chuan is totally a secondary, side system for me. I don't know all the forms out there. I am very familiar with the differences in styles but I only know one, two-man, san shou form, and it is based exactly on the 24 movement yang form. It is also the basis for the sword form I know. If the san shou form you know is different, than where does that originate? CMC directly?

[Laughing Cow]

Don't have too much experience with short and long forms myself.

One system I learned started you off on a 37 forms and than moved onto 88 & 98 forms.
Current style 1st road is 81 movements.

Short forms are fun to learn and can be benefitial for the newcomer, problem I see many students get discouraged and frustrated with learning a long form afterwards.

Personally, I prefer to start on a long form.

[Vapour]

One thing I notice is that yang style has much longer stance than CMC style. So I'm guessing that for beginner, it tend to force them to have narrower step to compensate for their lack of leg strength.

In our school, one of the first thing I was told was to keep my feet shoulder-wideth apart all the time. Keeping feets shoulder-width apart means that your feet is always in line with your hip so essentially it allow knee to works only as hinge joint. This instruction was accomapnied by advice to keep our lenght of step (that is the difference between front and back foot) short so one can avoid having narrow stance.

Another thing about CMC is that weight distribution is rather extreme in that it is aimed at full leg 99 and empty leg 1 per cent, which consequentially force beginner to have extremely smaller step. I initially thought this is to do with strenght training for leg but with this discussion, I realised that this has added bonus of avoiding knee injury.

Because of this 99 to 1 weight distiribution, the process involved in stepping is rather anal, it seems. Just after the first brush knee (left arm brush) in which weight is completely into front left leg, we completely shift back to back right leg, then pivot our empty left foot 45% to the left then we completely shift our weight into left leg by moving into the direction left foot is facing. Then when the weight is completly shifted to front left leg, right leg step forward.

I realised that if one's stance is long, consequently the wideth of leg become narrow, stepping in this stance do indeed put undue pressure on knees because knee and hip is not in line. But when we do this move, left knee only works as hinge joint eliminating the risk of knee injury, that is if student follow the insturction of teacher. Our way sure looks small and unattractive even ugly but hey, when did taijichun form became only about the looks? :)

[Vapour]

Originally posted by count
Vapour, Tai chi chuan is totally a secondary, side system for me. I don't know all the forms out there. I am very familiar with the differences in styles but I only know one, two-man, san shou form, and it is based exactly on the 24 movement yang form. It is also the basis for the sword form I know. If the san shou form you know is different, than where does that originate? CMC directly?

I'm just looking at a table of our San Shou A. there are 44 steps in this. As far as I know existence of this San Shou is a bit controversial. Firstly, it is definitely not invented by CMC. Some lineage of Yang style denies that it is a Yang, claiming that one of the student of Yang Cheng Fu invented it. Theose who maintain San Shou A/B and combined two persons forms as part of lineage counter it by claiming that other school didn't get true transmission. (Haven't we heard of this line before? :) )

All I can say is that it is a very cool form. It's a great form to learn sensitivity and counter. You can start off slow but once you get the hang of it, you can speed up. It's sometimes called fast form for this reason thouth we have another fast form called kwai taiji which is another yang. Kwai taiji is a yang version of cannon fist and pretty much every moves in the form is fa-jing (i.e. explosive movement). Only advance student learn this because this tend to mess up your taiji if you haven't got the understanding of relaxation. Sadly, I'm not one of them. :(

[GLW]

I know a few people who do Guang Ping but have not really dabbled in that variant directly. My Yang form is connected to Fu Zhongwen and that one method is more than enough for me to worry about :).

However, I do spend a bit of time in comparative aspects of different Taijiquan styles...the bit of recognizing and learning the salient parts of the other methods. I figure that at this rate, I may actually know something by the time I am 90 or so...:)

The 32 posture sword is definitely a companion set to 24. It is a good routine in its own right...and a bit shorter than the traditional Yang sword...but a lot of similarities...so much so that when I switch from one to the other, I have to be 100% there mentally or I will start mixing the two... :)

In teaching beginners, one caveat I have seen is that as the instructor, you need to show it correctly..hence you have correct stance work and sink and all. Then the student tries to copy. Even if you say "You will not do you stances as low and don't try to...you work up to that..." about 1000 times, many will still try to copy the stnace lowness and not its ideas.

The nuances of Yang Chengfu's routine, to me are much more subtle and ...well maybe I am just lazy...but I prefer to try to go into them and do the refinement once the student already has a frame of reference instead of having to build the frame of reference at the time of the explanation. :)

It is not that you can't do it the other way. I started with te long form. Unlike many classmates, I would finish the learning part. Then, I would deliberately go back and join a beginner group and relearn it - looking for more and more details each time. I did the same thing with 24 and virtually every other aspect of Taijiquan I know. While my classmates were learning new things, I was rehashing the old for depth. I like to think that I got the better deal over the long haul...but that is my desire. I am sure they feel the did OK as well. :)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It seems there may be merit to most views presented here, it really is a matter of choice.. I originally learned 108 first, it took me (and i was weepingly slow) 10 months to complete the first pass of instruction.. but, i watched good people with obvious talents drop-out because they couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel.. The short form would have given some a sense of do-ability and set much of the foundation work for the long form.. The short form is good place to drill principles so the long form can be a detailed refinement.. My Chen instruction was brutal, simply a repetition of one or two movements until the instructor was satisfied that it was correct and the main application was executed correctly (that could mean 3-4 weeks per move).. at the end of each class we would repeat what ever of the form we knew 5 times (near the end of the form it was punishing in the summer heat)..

Regarding stepping, it was my instruction and so i teach that you step no ****her than you are able to set your heel down without transferring ANY weight.. such that an attempted front leg sweep only launched the weightless foot/leg on a trajectory to a target.. the ability to sink (bend the knee, supporting a perpendicular spine) determined the length of step, and the width should never be narrower that a fist width between heels (when projected in the direction of travel) and frequently wider.. Much wisdom was imparted to me by insistance that i "feel" my toes connect to the ground, too many players let the toes "float" and so does their balance..

Anyway, it's not right, it's not wrong.. sequence of teaching 24 or long form is just a matter of preference.. in the end the dedicated student benefits from either approach..

Be well...

[GLW]

As you say...it is a matter of preference and what works for your teaching and learning style.

My preference comes from how I started. Back as a teenager, I began with Wing Chun. I had a strict and traditional teacher. I spent a full year learning the first form and NEVER even saw the second much less third form during that time. With him, you did NOT ask to learn more - if you did, he would make you show what you had up until that point - AND rip it to shreds with pointing out all of your errors - leaving you with a statement like "Why do you press to learn new when you haven't got the old? - Aiyahhh"

I was lucky. I NEVER got that statement - I saw it happen once early on and made a mental note not to go there.

To this day, my first form is ingrained with little deviation. However, I had 6 or 7 classmates start with me. At the end of the year, I was the only one still there.

My final and current teacher is the opposite. Everything is by example, show a logical chunk and then refine it. If the desired target routine is at too high a level for the student, a similar but easier routine is taught first to lay a foundation.

In the second approach, people seem to get more benefits and stick with it longer. those with talent but lacking patience are around long enough to begin to teach them patience.

While in an old style martial sense, this may not fly, in a modern world, to keep with the old ways may mean that all of the arts are eventually lost...

Evolution....and choice. What a combination

[Vapour]

Originally posted by GLW
I know a few people who do Guang Ping but have not really dabbled in that variant directly. My Yang form is connected to Fu Zhongwen and that one method is more than enough for me to worry about :).


GLW, is Guang Ping is the name of lineage which practice SanShou A/B? Or am I talking nonsence here?

Btw, it came to my attension that the speed in which one teach form differ significantly. It's took me about 10 month to learn 37 posture. I was attending lesson only once a week at that time. Plus it was done in university so you get one month Easter and another one month Christmas break. And when complete beginner join up, it tended to slow down the progress of the form learning.

I would say, in our school, it probably takes 6 months or more to learn the 37 steps form if one attend 90 minutes lesson once a week which include some push hand instructions.

For anyone who teach or have learned 24 step, how long did you take to teach or learn the entire 24 step form?

[count]

GLW,
I think the nature of learning anything to mastery is overlapping layers of refinement. I was curious how much you knew about the Kuang Ping stepping in comparison. From what I have seen of it, they show a lot more sensitivity in the stepping. Very effective at covering, feeling and trapping and/or sweeping with their feet than most other Yang styles I've seen. You know, I already know about your background in Tai Chi from the last 4 years or so of posting on this forum. I have seen some of the good descriptions of the differences come from you so I thought I'd ask. Sometimes your descriptions help me put my own thoughts into words. Anyway, to bring this back on topic...

Vapors,
I spent a little more than one year to learn the long form myself. Knowing that, I could learn the short form in less than a month even with the differences in stepping. I have shown the 24 to others with no experience in five sections, about one per month and a sixth month to clean it up. But that includes other training such as stance, drills, applications, pushing hands, chi kung etc. That's about the same amount of time I spent learning the Chen style short form and the sun style short form. Of course learning a form and performing it correctly are two different matters.

[Vapour]

I noticed that lot of Yang stylist practice CMC's 37 steps form, but from what I see, the 37 step form is performed as short Yang form rather than a distinct style. So I did bit of reading. Here is the differences between Yang style and CMC style.

As I said, CMC style has strong emphasis on keeping the width of the stance shoulder width. Plus weight distribution of substantial and insubstantial leg in CMC is 99/1 while in Yang, I'm informed that, it is about 70/30.

Moreover, in Yang style, one adjust the back foot by turning the ball of the foot making the stance longer whiel in CMC, the adjustment is made by the heel, keeping the length of the stance the same.

In Yang it seems that focus is streching your hip joint while in CMC focus is on relaxation of hip joint. Because we keep insubstaintial leg compeletely empty and width of stance are always kept at shoulder-width, turning of hip is initiated by relaxing the empty leg further. I noticed that when I have narrower and longer stance where my insubstaintial leg is not completely empty, I did find that I can only open or close my hip by pulling or pushing it rather than letting it open or close on it own accord.

Another thing which I've been often told is the wrists of open palms. I did notice that some student who done yang in our class keeps their open palm's wrist kinked while in our style, wrist is always straight. I noticed that when I do kink my wrist, my focus will shift from the tip of fingers to the centre of palm.

Moreover, there seems to be emphasis on analysing the applications of step in Yang. In our style, analysis of marital application of each steps is deemphasised and the form is regarded as a "posture" form rather than representing the particular technical application.

Adding to this is that exterior outlook of CMC form performed by a beginner (i.e. me :)) is quite unattractive if not ugly. Because we have such extreme weight distribution rule, we have very small step and small movement even though physical strength involved in perfoming each steps is equally difficult if not more. When I perform long single whip and snake creep down sequence, I cann't really creep because my stance is short. I can just squate and my front leg is often bent, so I looks like trying to **** outdoor. :)

[RAF]

Regarding the 24 movement Taiji form with applications, see the old tape by Liang Shou Yu and Sam Masich. The form is played with deep postures and solid stances and the applications are very good.

I can see from his book and tapes where someone might feel very comfortable learning only the 24 movement, some warm-ups & Qi gong (see the book) and the applications with some two man drills (see the tape). Add a little pushing hands from Sam Masich's other tape plus the 32 movement sword with auxilliary exercises and you could be quite content.

A great way to teach most public students? Yes. Why? Because on average, most students last between 2-3 years, this can be taught and completed over that time period. When the student leaves, they are left with a sense of achievement and general feeling of completedness. When they leave, they leave with a smile on their face, which is your best sourece of advertisement i.e. satisfaction word of mouth!

For some people, thats all they desire and can get all they need from the 24 movement form/system. Surprisingly, many don't want to be "burdened" with the politics of whether my taiji is the original one or whether I am king of the hill and can kick your arse and everyone else's etc. etc. etc.. Its hard to believe that there are people like that out there, who take seriously the belief the mastering and completing a small part is better than have a large part uncompleted.

For others, like the posters here, it would barely wet our lips!

[GLW]

RAF summed it up pretty well.

There is the flip side of that too. Since I KNOW that each student makes a committment to my class (and other teachers have the same issue - mine included) on a month by month, maybe quarter by quarter, and for some even day by day basis, I KNOW that this class could be the last class they take.

This is not to say that they leave without a word. People get sick, new jobs, divorced, have kids, injured, lose interest, whatever. Some will stay for a long time. Others will learn "enough" and leave. My traditional Chinese mother-in-law can't understand why her daughter and I are still learning after so many years..."Haven't we learned enough for health yet?"

But, the flip side is KNOWING this, as a teacher, I want to make sure that when it happens, the person leaving has as much for life as I can give them...that they have spent their time in a worthwhile pursuit and that they understand what would be left in training should they decide to continue later. I also want to make sure that their basics are good enough that they can spot a BS artist/teacher and not waste their time should they resume.

It seems to work. I have had ex-students come back and say how they were practicing with others in a class and people asked why THEY weren't teaching instead of the person leading.

On funny note, every student I have ever had that was insistent in knowing what it took to have me say they were instructor level or that asked "how many years can you teach me before I need to find another teacher" has NEVER lasted through even a fourth of the classes. Impatience.

[draggin dragon]

Is the official 24 movement form useful for learning a foundation of martial TJQ, or only for exercise value?

[bodhitree]

That was the first form my Sifu taught me. after that we went on to the long form. I think Its a great form to practice when theres not a lot of time, and you can still get many of the same applications as the long form.

[GLW]

Got to take issue with the way the question is phrased....

There can be NO martial foundation for Taijiquan or any other form of Chinese Martial Art without first having a FOUNDATION.

Jibengong is what it is called...Basics.

Without stance and movement basics, nothing else is possible.

[Vapour]

Well, my instructor is of opinion that it is the hardest (worst) form to teach taijiquan due to the way sequence are structured.

I did post a thread while ago. The legitimacy of 24 is reccurent flamebait topic (Earl Mongegue is another one) so I abstain from voting.

[Brad]

Well, my instructor is of opinion that it is the hardest (worst) form to teach taijiquan due to the way sequence are structured.

I don't see how :confused:

[GroungJing]

I agree, but yet I don't....

I personnly do the 24 form with a Yang Famly style influence, rather than the beijing wushu flare we see in the 42, and the old 48 mixed form. It's mainly in the way Yang family style forms Ji(press) and a few other things too. (not a lot through.....much is really the same

Just something in all that Beijing hand flapping going on that in a martial sense I don't see a need for. (IMO)


Application wise they all are the same. Although, I could see this being a problem if someone isn't initiated in Taijiquan fighting theory.

So maybe it is hard for a newbie to learn...........

[GLW]

Hand flapping?

never seen that...at least if any routien is done correctly

What do you mean?

[GroungJing]

I've seen some Beijing Wushu influenced 24, 42 and 48 mixed forms that have really embellished the hand movements. Sometimes they have added a whole movement where there was none. I'm not sure as to what purpose these new hand movements represent other than embellishments. (looks to me like they got really into cloud hands :) I'm not sure where it's comming out of, Beijing or Hong Kong etc....

I don't think it will gain in popularity, it might though......

When you see it, you will know it.

They are not your typical compitition forms (It must be variations of the 24, 42 and 48 forms


Who's to say what is correct, but that is what I was refering to as hand flapping......

[Brad]

I think I know what you're talking about... I used to do that "hand flapping" when I first learned 24 form. Basically, it came from me trying to imitate the beautiful flowing like water look that I saw in the official video. My teacher corrected me though. Just sounds like some lazy teachers out there & inexperience, not any fault of the form itself :D I know my teacher doesn't do any "hand flapping" and he learned from the source.

[GLW]

Actually, since 24, 42, and 48 are all standardized forms and have a very clean and usually simple way to be done, to vary too much or to add flowery flourishes IS incorrect. That is the good part about a STANDARD. To deviate from it means you are NOT following the standard.

So, I would say that people doing flowery stuff with their 24, 42, or 48 are simply doing it wrong.

[Vapour]

According to the standard 24, you stand on a tight rope.

[Brad]

You have the official book?

[Vapour]

No. I asked a Chinese lady who teach 24 in college. Then I happend to know a girl whose mother is a tajiquan instructor (the one ROC government's sport version.) so I asked her as well.

I accept that two uncorraborated souce may not be sufficient but as far as I know, in 24, you stand in very narrow, long stance and when you pivot your foot heel move out to make stance longer (and narrower). Obviously, bigger the stance, better it looks from wushu point of view. On the other hand this will lock one's waist and make it difficult to single weight hence maiking it very difficult to teach taijiquan.

Thought it is based on Yang form, how it is officially taught by ROC government as the standard may not adhere to taijiquan.

From what I can see, 24 is a good introductory form to learn Yang form's careography. Sure you can demonstrate application of posture using 24 but to learn taijiquan principles you probably need to move onto 108.

In old day, you didn't get to learn long single whip and snake creep down sequence until you built up leg strength to be able to hold the posture correctly. Nowaday, if you teach like that, you probably won't have a commercially viable class so I can see how handy 24 is.

I will change my mind if I ever meet a proficient taijiquan fighter (or push hand competittor) who only did 24.

[Vapour]

Oh, well, since I said something, here is another opinion.

I practice Cheng Man Ching style which is a derivative style from Yang and has only 37 posture. I started taking asistant instructor's course so I recently had to write up and submit a lesson plan for beginner's class.

While doing it I did discover how well the 37 posture form are sequenced, where I can introduce elementary taijiquan principles in the beginning postures and move on to more advanced concept as the sequence progress.

For example, grasping sparrow's tail come in very beggining of the form. So once I finish GST, I can introduce very basoc sequence of our pushhand form. Plus I have already covered wardoff, press, push and rollback, so many of later postures can be explained as extention of these basic moves. In 24, GST come after wild horse's mane white crane spread its wings, Brush knee, Play the gutar, Repulse the monkey. I consider wild horse's mane as extension of ward off, and repulse the monkey rather complex advance move. I rather not introduce beginnger student moves which involve lot of hand movements.

By looking at the sequence of 24, I did have a feeling that it would be extremely difficult to write up lesson plan using 24. Then I did realise that when you teach 24, you screw all these 13 movements or taijiquan principles and you just teach the caliography in as short time as possible so you can start teaching taijiquan. Then I did see how easy it is to teach 24.

I do hear from advanced practioner that 24 is a badly patched form and has some problem in term of transmission from one particular posture to another posture. On this account, I would appreciate some comment.

[GLW]

- Vapour -
“No. I asked a Chinese lady who teach 24 in college. Then I happend to know a girl whose mother is a tajiquan instructor (the one ROC government's sport version.) so I asked her as well. “

This is NOT a good set of experiences. You are indicating that you have NO direct knowledge or at least no in depth knowledge of 24. Therefore, I would submit that you are somewhat unqualified to make judgements about 24.

The stances make use of the common principle of San Jiao Bu (triangle stepping). It is 2 to 3.5 shoulder widths deep – which is a standard for Gong Bu in most styles of CM as well as Taijiquan and then a shoulder width (as in from where one arm connects to the torso to the other arm connecting to the torso) wide in the stance for Gong Bu…again, this is standard Gong Bu for all CMA and Taijiquan…except for those that do really narrow stances like Wu/Hao style.

The Gong Bu step has a rock back…but this is to shift the emphasis back to the heel of the front foot. Then the BACK foot pushes forward while shifting through the waist pivoting from back to through to front heel incorporating the waist to connect as you step into Ding Bu (T stance). The difference here between Traditional Yang and 24 is (1) No rack backward and (2) No Ding Bu – you simply step all the way to the next Gong Bu.

The reason for the change here…. The Traditional Yang way of doing it is often NOT done correctly. People split their attention and do NOT incorporate the waist into the step. The end result of this is that there is an undue force applied to the knee that over time, damages the knee. Now, the cure for this is to get correction and then build up the correct level of leg strength and the correct body mechanics. However, in 24, they determined that it was easier to add a rock back to remove the stress from the knee since a lot of Traditional Yang people were mistakenly doing it anyway. The reason for the Ding Bu being added is simple…the correct stepping makes balance a little harder so they added a intermediate point to recover balance and to coordinate the upper an lower body.

“From what I can see, 24 is a good introductory form to learn Yang form's .”

EXACTLY. It is called SIMPLIFIED Taijiquan. It was NEVER meant to be the stopping point. It is a BEGINNING only. Compare this to something like the first basic routine in northern fist…Wu Bu Quan for example…. Exactly how much in depth understanding do you really get from a begninner’s form? If all you learn is 24, you have enough for health but NOT enough to get into the depths of Taijiquan.

As for how the form fits together and teaching it, if a teacher only teaches to the form, and NOT basics, then that teacher is not worth learning from. To teach 24 or any Taijiquan or routine, you first have to develop the basics. For example,

Start with basic walking – most people walk out of balance so you have to teach them how to walk.
Then – Ding Bu step…how to hold balance in a close stance.
Than half step – how to use Gong Bu as a stance and be in balance – and build up the leg strength.
The Gong Bu stepping – no hand technique – how to step from one Gong Bu to another (right to left).
At the same time, you would be teaching hand techniques – no stepping…. Hold Ball, Part horse’s mane, Brush Knee, Whirl arms, White Crane.
Now, you can connect them with things Like Brush Knee with Gong Bu step, Part Horse’s mane with Gong Bu step.

Now, you can teach backward stepping
Then add in the arms.
Now, you actually have enough to learn the form.
If you look at what I described, you would have several classes of basics before you start learning the form.
However, once you begin the form, it is more memory work…AND you continue with drilling the basics.





“Then I did realise that when you teach 24, you screw all these 13 movements or taijiquan principles and you just teach the caliography in as short time as possible so you can start teaching taijiquan. “

Not exactly…if done correctly…but the way most people teach it, you are unfortunately correct. People simply hate to do basics and want to rush into the form. To be honest, the form is merely a tool. The real value is all in the basics.

“I do hear from advanced practioner that 24 is a badly patched form and has some problem in term of transmission from one particular posture to another posture. “

Not really. The transitions are actually quite easy…but they are NOT shown in writing and many do them badly.

For example, from the beginning after opening the stance, there is raise hands, lower, then hold ball before stepping out to part horse’s mane. The transition from lower to hold ball is the first one…you don’t simply hold ball…that is static and non-flowing. Instead, there is a small Mua (wiping) to the right that connects the hands and waist together- with a turn of the waist and a turning of the hands and arms to hold ball as your left foot comes back to Ding Bu. This Mua is the part that is missing from most people and NOT listed clearly in writing…it is “understood” to be there. It is also NOT flowery but a very simple wiping.

Similarly, going from the last Brush Knee to Play Lute, if you simply stand up to Play lute, it is dull. You actually have to let the right hand from the last brush knee extend forward as you have step and then raise both hands to intercept as you shift back (there is a half step happening here), and then as you sit into the empty stance, your hands close and wiast turns slightly to Play lute. The flow is there…but more importantly, the application is an intercept with the right hand to an elbow Qinna as you trap the foot with your foot in your empty stance. (hard to describe in words when a picture would make it be OHHHHH….)

Again, the movements are implied and if you KNOW the traditional set or have a teacher that does, it is all there and not flowery…but if you have someone who doesn’t, all bets are off.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It has been almost a year (10 1/2 months) that i have taken one group of students (7) through the 24 movement form.. only now do i have the feeling that they are beginning to actually "understand" the form.. We have refined each posture and transition several times, we have included Dantien control, we have applied each movement to several combat situations and demonstrated how multiple movements flow into a viable self-defense.. Still, the students want more from just the 24.. they sense that it is as deep as any other (they are right, you know).. each of my classes, whether advanced or beginning, starts wth 1/2 hour of basics..

Most of the criticism i hear regarding 24 is of a personal preference nature, usually sour grapes.. a lot of people that have invested a lot of time learning longer more arduous forms are reluctant to give credit to shorter "simpler" forms.. Tai Chi, regardless of the form, if understood by the teacher, if taught appropriately, and if principles are enforced is a valid self-defense.. My personal experience with the 24 movement form is gratifying, both as a self-defense and health-enhancing discipline.. the transitions in 24 are excellent alternatives to the "standard", they actually give us more options...

Anyway, just another opinion.. Be well.

[Vapour]

You don't get a job in a British state college as a *teacher* without having a qualification, i.e. she was a qualified (i.e. ROC qualified) teacher of standard forms which include 24.

Another girl I know was being taught by her mother since kid and her mother is a taijiquan teacher in china, i.e. qualified (again by ROC) teacher of taijiquan, (otherwise you can't be a wushu taijiquan practioner.)

Their performance looked graceful indicating that they do have decent training behind them. They also had "theoretical" knowledge of taijiquan such as relaxation or application of each postures while at the same time they had poor understanding of taijiquan in practice.

As of the length of step, I do believe that shorter stance is more appropriate for beginner especially if they are not physically fit which is common for taijiquan beginner. But I do agree that 24 (or any taijiquan for that matter) are badly practiced and it would be unfair to judge the form by dad examples..

However, I still stand by my assesement that 24 is more appropriate for modern (western?) way of teaching, that is to teach entire careography in short period, which has obvious commercial advantage. Otherwise, why wardoff, roll back, push and press are introduced after more advance moves such as Repulse monkey or Brush knee.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Sorry to keep posting, but.. My experience (including observations of others) is that wider stances offer more power while compromising flexibility.. narrower stances offer greater flexibility and the power aspect is more difficult learn but no less than wide stances.. In short, i recommend wide stances for chi development, conditioning and power (muscular), and narrower stances for chi circulation (expression), flexibility/mobility and application.. Both have their place in the Art.

Be well..

[Vapour]

Thaks for the comment.

I'm not talking about the difference in length of step among difference styles which is reflection of different weight distriution rules. I'm talking about difference in leg strength between begiiners and more advance students.

Practioner of taijiquan when it was primarily practiced as a martial arts were physically fit. Plus, orientals especially those from rural area (like me, :)) had very short and stocky legs. So they could concentrate on different aspect such as flexibility or power while observing taijiquan rules, such as weight distribution, rooting into yongquan or tacked sacrum.

On the other hand, most taijiquan beginners are not that fit and some of them (especially westener) has very long leg. So I don't think they can adhere to style's weight distribution rule (60-40, 70-30, 95-5 or whatever appropriate for each style) unless their step is shorter.

Anyway, I would say it is more of my preference than anything. I would certainly agree that you could teach outer structure first and let internal aspect such as strenght or flexibility to catch up. I find this to be the case in harder style of aikido (Yoshinkan) and Chen style. But I also do know that injuries are more common in these style so in future, they might have to change approach for insurance reason.

[GroungJing]

Glw you nailed it pretty good (i.e. the difference between the simplifed 24 and the long form)


You know your Yang family style....who taught you?

[GLW]

Grandmaster Wang Jurong...

[GroungJing]

I asked you, because a lot of people don't know the differences. They just assume they are the same.

It was a good post.

I first learned the long form from a diciple of Yang Zhenduo by the name Sifu Wong. But this school never went anywhere near the martial side. I later heard that Yang Zhenduo doesn't teach it martailly, nor never did (I heard both...) Great form training though.......

Then I persued the 24, 48 mixed and the martial side of Yang style from another sifu. (my Sifu, Kong Jin Re).

[GLW]

Funny you should ask at this time.

I have been going through some of my 'treasures' and decided it was time to get around to framing a couple of things...from 1994

I had lunch with my teacher and Master Fu Zhongwen. He gave me a small (11x11 inch) paper with Yang Chengfu doing all of Yang style (really really really small photos) that he marked with his chop as well as signed...and we also had a couple of pictures taken over lunch where we were all just talking. It looks like he is giving me the secret to the universe in one of them...but all he was really saying was that one teacher in the US that claimed to be his student was not and that I should listen to my teacher because she really really understood Taijiquan.


The photo and paper are even more special because Master Fu died a few months later.

He was a very nice man...and truly loved his coconut milk :).

[GroungJing]

Fu Zhongwen......

I would have given my eyeteeth to be able to sit down and ask some serious questions of him, concerning Yang Chen Fu


He would probably have slapped me.

[GLW]

Know what you mean. I did not have nearly enough time there to ask all I would have liked to ask.

I was truly hoping to be able to visit with him again in a year or so..but it was not to be.

Still, I count myself lucky.

[No_Know]

Moreover, in Yang style, one adjust the back foot by turning the ball of the foot making the stance longer whiel in CMC, the adjustment is made by the heel, keeping the length of the stance the same.


The legbone end is the heel. If the ball turns (pivot is on the heel which stays in place~ to turn out the ball of the foot) the leg has not made any distance (because angle at the crotch determines wider/longer stance (if pivot moves the heel away from the center~This makes the stance longer)). If the heel moves-out it covers distance Away from where it just was (pivoted on the ball of the foot).

What gets pivoted on for each, in your understanding?

[RAF]

http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jpa/22/5/22_219/_article/-char/en

Interesting.

[Shooter]

For anyone who teach or have learned 24 step, how long did you take to teach or learn the entire 24 step form?

24 form was the first form I learned. I had it memorized in 2 weeks but after almost 13 years, I still haven't learned it. ;) I don't 'teach' that form or any other until a player has trained for a year or so (only Chi Kung and 8 Gates fighting method). Function before form...

[bamboo_ leaf]

Good topic

Just returned from china / tanjin, where I was able to watch some taiji competitions.

Many have already said much more then I could say about the 24 step. I would just like to add a few thoughts. Many of the family styles as well as the PRC developed short forms as a way of standardizing taiji movements defined by family styles into compact routines that can be easily judged and evaluated. Or as with the CMC style a way to teach a very compact style of taiji based on the yang family style.

In China from what I saw they have four people doing the form at the same time and are judged by a panel of judges, this process goes on with the winners going on to bigger competitions in other regions. The level is quite good even though im not a big fan of competitions it was interesting to watch.

[bodhitree]

I personally like the 24 set. I think the effectiveness depends on the teacher, and the practitioner. This is especially true if you also train in traditional Yang style, I often practice the 24 set due to time restraints.

[bodhitree]

delib
I've pmed you a couple of times, check your pm. E mail me!

[trilobite]

:) I love Yang 24! What makes you think it has no martial application?Grasp the Sparrow's Tail and Cloud Hand are kick@$$

[trilobite]

ttt


I WON'T LET THIS THREAD DIE!!!:mad:

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by count
If you don't think there is value in something like the 24, than you just don't understand it. There are no forms, only 13 postures. Only methods of training. Only practice. What it comes down to is, "it's about how you train." Nice to respect your teachers opinion, but look at other possibilities.:cool: The Yang 24 form was created by the Yang style masters of the day collectively. It is based on Yang Tai Chi, and can be enough for some.

I second what count says......! BIG TIME!

I teach the 24 simplified, the long form and the 48 modified.....

If your not going to train properly and use taiji principles in your training then it doesn't matter what Tajiquan form your doing.


How can any of the forms talked about (the 24, 48 or Orthodox long form) make any real sense without tuishou or Dalu etc.... I only have experience in Yang style and it isn't a western style boxing art, if there is anything from from the west Taiji resembles (IMO) its Greco-Roman wrestling with the kicks and strikes left in.



The quan(form) is just a part of the total package not all of it. If you teach someone how to box and leave out a right cross, have you really not taught them how to box? No.... Provided you taught them sparring, good footwork, strategy and pratical real world experience.....in the end.........you just didn't teach the right cross.....

Same with the 24 form if your teaching Yang style Taijiquan correctly..............

[unixfudotnet]

The 24 move form is definitely useful.

It is the first form I learned. Everything helps, and this form has a lot of the basics of the Yang style. It is simple, and has important moves in it.

Things I learned from doing the 24 move form (my first Tai chi form):
1) like stepping, moving from empty and full legs
2) solid stances
3) moving at the same speed, slowly

The form is simple and it is a good thing I think. I was able to get the basics understood and in my mind and body.

Sure it is not the traditional long form, but it teaches you stuff that you need to learn. Everything helps, and when you start the long form, things you picked up and learned from the 24 move form will only help you.

My Tai chi helps my kungfu training, and my kungfu training helps my tai chi training. If you have a good teacher, they know what they are doing. Realize that he/she has been teaching for a long time and knows what they are doing.

With no tai chi foundation, the 24 move form is amazing. I think I would have more trouble with the long form if I did not know and do the 24 move form multiple times a day every day. Also basic stepping, it may seem boring, but that is very very very important when starting out and trying to get things down. The concept of empty and full legs, and not filling the leg before the foot is places where it needs to be are so fundamental and need to be down pat :) Plus it is easy to coordinate your breath with (like prayer wheels) the movement.

[unixfudotnet]

i apologize, more appropriate was hard and soft training :)

[CharlesDaCosta]

If you are talking about the Yang Simplified (The first 24) -- there is also a Chen Simplified -- This form is a reduced Yang. All the postures (techniques) in it are taken directly from the Yang Form.

If a teacher tells you that: the form is not for martial arts, has no taichi principles in it, or is useless. Please ask the teacher about their view of Yang Style of Taichi.

From my stand point, the form was made for beginers and people with not so much time. There is blocking, kicking, punching, and chi na in the 24. With all the basic Yang techniques in it, you should be able to fight from it -- I can. But then maybe I spent more time with it and had a different type of teacher.

[bamboo_ leaf]

http://www.sataichi.com/compare.html


COMPARATIVE STUDY
BETWEEN TRADITIONAL YANG STYLE OF YANG CHENGFU
AND CHENG MAN
CHING'S STYLE.
By J. Justin Meehan


this was written a while back, I find it useful to compare the differences between yang style variations, I do not agree with all of his premises but it's a good article.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
http://www.sataichi.com/compare.html


COMPARATIVE STUDY
BETWEEN TRADITIONAL YANG STYLE OF YANG CHENGFU
AND CHENG MAN
CHING'S STYLE.
By J. Justin Meehan

this was written a while back, I find it useful to compare the differences between yang style variations, I do not agree with all of his premises but it's a good article.

If I recall my history correctly, Cheng was a student of Yang, and they practised push hands together a lot.

If this is ture, I think it would explain Cheng's variation. Yang was much bigger and longer (more reach and taller). Cheng would have to try and stay inside Yang inorder to be effective (unless they did moving push hands -- this I dout because as a student of Robert Smith we never did moving push hands, in fact at that time I did not know it existed. And, all the film clips of Cheng had him doing stationary push hands.)

[GLW]

While Cheng states he learned from Yang Chengfu, the time spent and the closeness of that relationship has been disputed by other Yang students...

Cheng's method is different. Why is that...who knows. But it is significantly different to be its own offshoot. If you compare the methods and stances...and then you have the 37 short form, it is different enough from the Classical Yang form (as in the differences from Yang to Wu style) so...why do people keep saying it is Yang and not just say it is Cheng style...and be done with it.

[bamboo_ leaf]

http://www.aymta.org/Journal/ZQLpt1.html


("In the room was a table where they had eaten. The two men were on one side of the table pushing hands. On the other side of the table was a wall, which was not very thick and made of wood (something like plywood). At that time Zheng Manqing considered himself to be pretty good. While pushing with Zhang Qinlin, he was very intent on trying to push Zhang over. Zhang Laoshi was just deflecting right, deflecting left. He then made a Ji, and Zheng Manqing flew - over the table and into the wall, which almost fell over."

Pu bingru (who was laughing while telling the story) said that the impact left a hole in the wall, and Zheng Manqing, after crashing into the wall, slumped to the ground. Everyone ran over, picked him up while asking if he was okay. Zheng stood up (a little shaken but not hurt - the outcome was not what he had anticipated) then went to his knees and said to Zhang Laoshi, You must take me as your student." Zhang replied, "I just came for dinner. You demonstrated your form, and I demonstrated my form. This is not something I had expected." He told Zheng, "At the moment I do not have any time, and I am only here temporarily. I live in Shanxi province right now. If you want me to be your teacher, you will have to send someone to get me."

Zheng Manqing was very happy and realized that he would have to send a proper invitation to Zhang as well as make whatever special arrangements were necessary in order to bring Zhang Laoshi from Shanxi to Shanghai, where Zheng Manqing was living. Zheng spent a lot of money making these necessary preparations. In those days, there were no commercial planes. Because Zheng Manqing had a lot of connections he was able to use a military plane to fly Zhang Qinlin from Shanxi to Shanghai. In those days, the people used those round coins on strings, and the plane trip cost one string (about $100) and another string (or two) was given as a gift to Mrs. Zhang for her use while Zhang Laoshi was away)


I think many times a teacher himself will wish to honor the main teacher he learned from, this may be why Zheng himself never referred to his art by its current name. Many teachers have different influences on their training. Students come to them because of what they can do and know. Not to belong to some type of history. Once you have something doesn't really matter where it came from.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
http://www.aymta.org/Journal/ZQLpt1.html
I think many times a teacher himself will wish to honor the main teacher he learned from, this may be why Zheng himself never referred to his art by its current name. Many teachers have different influences on their training. Students come to them because of what they can do and know. Not to belong to some type of history. Once you have something doesn't really matter where it came from.

Yep, but where you came from makes for a good conversation piece.:)

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by GLW
... it is significantly different to be its own offshoot. If you compare the methods and stances...and then you have the 37 short form, it is different enough from the Classical Yang form (as in the differences from Yang to Wu style) so...why do people keep saying it is Yang and not just say it is Cheng style...and be done with it.

I agree with you but see bamboo_ leafs post: Cheng may have wanted to honor Yang, and Cheng's students want to honor Cheng by calling it what Cheng did.

[qiphlow]

regarding the 24 form.

from what i know, this form was made sometime in the 1960's or 70's as a simplification of the yang long form. cheng man ching also shortened and simplified his teacher's (yang chen fu) form due to his (cheng man ching's) lazy nature (his own admission in a preface to a book he authored--i'm not trying to insult or offend anyone here). value? whatever you put in, you'll get out.

[Walter Joyce]

There are at least two if not more Chen short form variations. The ones I have been taught, by Wang Hai Jun and Chen Zhen Lei were based on chen movements and principles, not the Yang movements, and Chen Xiao Wang also has developed one.

It also seems logically inconsistent to say that a Chen form is based on Yang movements, for any number of reasons, not the least of which is the historical fact that the Yang family form is based on what Yang LuChan learned from the Chen family and then passed along to his family and students.

The main difference between Chen and Yang is in the method of silk reeling, not the postures.

I agree that its not the length of the form, but they way in which it is practiced, with the caveat that a longer form requires that you practice for a longer period of time, which does make a difference, especially when you are developing your skill or jin.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by qiphlow
regarding the 24 form.

from what i know, this form was made sometime in the 1960's or 70's as a simplification of the yang long form. cheng man ching also shortened and simplified his teacher's (yang chen fu) form due to his (cheng man ching's) lazy nature (his own admission in a preface to a book he authored--i'm not trying to insult or offend anyone here). value? whatever you put in, you'll get out.

Yep, you are right. I have to add that the need for self defence was also not present. Only the need to push and deflect a push remained. Also the lazy nature of his students, the Yang form was too long for busy Americans (especially at the University):D

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

24 has many good and useful principles, it has real fighting potential.. but, it needs the proper understanding and teacher to illustrate it... if someone can't see the potential it's not the form's fault..

Personally, 24 is my work-week morning form.. before showering and breakfast i do some QiGong and 24.. 24 allows me to check my principles, set things in motion and perspective.. and, start the day with a great buzzzz of Qi and inner calm.. (then, the caffine blast hits me like a turbocharger.. :D )..

If someone can't realize at least 50 fighting applications existing naturally in the 24 movement form, they don't actually understand Taiji or combat..

Be well...

[GLW]

Come on now...a bit of history correctness please...

The Simplified Taijiquan - 24 Posture routine was inaugurated (i.e. official creation date...) in 1955. It was created in the People's Republic of China "The New China" Mainland, etc...

It was based upon Yang style but also has influences from Sun and Wu in it as well.

Its creation had NOTHING to do with lazy Americans...the PRC could care less about Americans in 1955.

It was created to make an entry routine that was easy to learn, good for health, and interesting. It was also to serve as something to create a foundation for further study if the person wished to learn more.

It's sister set, 32 Posture Sword, was created soon after...and was also based heavily on Classical Yang sword form.

24 Posture used to be a required course of study for anyone graduating from any of the Wushu colleges....though many STILL do it incorrectly.

It is by design a beginner form...and has simple ideas within. If all you learn is 24, you have a taste of Taijiqan...but not much else. But then again, if all you learned was the first set of ANY style, you would merely have a taste as well.

24 has NOTHING to do with Cheng ManChing. He did his 37 posture on his own.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Originally posted by GLW
Come on now...a bit of history correctness please...

The Simplified Taijiquan - 24 Posture routine was inaugurated (i.e. official creation date...) in 1955. It was created in the People's Republic of China "The New China" Mainland, etc...

...

Its creation had NOTHING to do with lazy Americans...the PRC could care less about Americans in 1955.

...

24 has NOTHING to do with Cheng ManChing. He did his 37 posture on his own.

I am sorry to say this but when Cheng ManChing was mentioned, those post were talking about his form, and why is it called a Yang form today. The post were not about the 24. I realize the post should not have been in this thread but :) happens (getting off track).

[GLW]

Actually, in most of the posts on here...they should all be named after a northern style...you know the one...

The LOST TRACK method... :)

And I have NEVER strayed from the topic...at least in the last 5 seconds....:)

[wiz cool c]

It depends on how you train. I used to do Chen style for one year. I entered a tournament and tore up my knee doing push hands. One year later with a new teacher practicing the yang short form, doing alot of pushing, and 40 minets a day of standing and I won my Devision in the tai chi legacy resrticted step push hands this year. Carlos Gracie only had four years of Jujitsu training from Maeda and created Gracie Jujitsu out of it . It was the way they trained that maid a diference. The yang short form does things like stretch the hips, work on the stances, and move your body from the waist ect.

[wiz cool c]

Sorry for the silly mistake [maid] I have dyslexia.

[unixfudotnet]

Originally posted by wiz cool c
It depends on how you train. I used to do Chen style for one year. I entered a tournament and tore up my knee doing push hands. One year later with a new teacher practicing the yang short form, doing alot of pushing, and 40 minets a day of standing and I won my Devision in the tai chi legacy resrticted step push hands this year. Carlos Gracie only had four years of Jujitsu training from Maeda and created Gracie Jujitsu out of it . It was the way they trained that maid a diference. The yang short form does things like stretch the hips, work on the stances, and move your body from the waist ect.

The Yang and Chen family styles do the same thing, just start in different directions. Yang has fast and swift explosions and low stances and Chen has slow and fluid. In the end, they reach the same thing, heh. Chen definitely looks cooler though, heh.

As told to me by a student at the school I go to that has been doing Taijiquan for 21 years, with more focus on Bagua and Chen now than Yang. He also stated that his Chen teacher will not even teach you unless you have Yang down. Taijiquan teachers of old used to not even teach you unless you mastered another style first.

Glad you got another teacher. That is sad that you hurt your knee, it immediately raises a red flag that your teacher was bad. Minor adjustments make all the difference. It is all in the details.

[unixfudotnet]

One other thing about the 24 form, it has the fundamentals of Taijiquan in it, just takes getting down the movements, breathing, and steady speed (without bobbing up and down) first before the form becomes not so much external in nature to you. That is when it all begins :)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Form is secondary to principle.. the form is a platform for drilling and refining principles.. any form without principles is just a bad dance.. The 24 movement form is a great wake-up form in the mornings when time might be limited (ie: work constraints).. but, the form is only as good as the principles that support it..

No form is valid without testing its usefulness.. sparring, pushing hands (chin na allowed, but not to the extreme), and weapons work (controlled weapons sparring) demonstrate the usefulness of theory.. without the testing it is only an academic exercise, useful for many things, but lacking the experience and refinement of its martial capabilities.. using only the techniques from the 24 movement form one can develop a sound self-defense.. but, you only get out of it what you put into it.. if you begin with skepticism, that's likely where you will end up.. begin with an open mind and let the form/principles speak for itself..

Be well..

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Vapour
[B]Thank you wujimon for the links.

24 set is the form which every Mainland Chinese kids now learn in school and ....

:rolleyes:

I heard Nixon is planning a visit to China soon. Do you know anything about that?

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKuGTJcD86Q&mode=related&search=

a good clip of the simplified 24 Shi Tai Chi.

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKpXqi_DBTw&mode=related&search=

Yang 42 form.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nprZhmfpH40&mode=related&search=

Yang 108 form.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Of the 3 videos, 24 has the most going for it.. the form is essentially the same as the compulsory, and the young lady is executing it fairly well.. she, as well as the others, have difficulty with maintaining consistent postures vertically (they bob up and down).. rear power leg foot positions are too angled to make efficient use of structure, at those angles you will feel counter-tension in the quads which will mis-align the hips.. the rear power foot should be no more than 30° off the direction of travel, 15° preferred.. there was a bit of wrists crossing the centerline, a no-no as i understand things.. but, these are just my personal understandings.. there was not very much attention to coordinating open and closed Kua with the postures..

The 42 form is vastly different than Ley Deyin's (he developed 42 by the way)..

All in all, the movements were graceful and expressive, but.. left me wanting for spirit, power and application.. The players were better than most, but not a really good representation of Taiji's potential..

Be well..

[B-Rad]

The 42 form is vastly different than Ley Deyin's (he developed 42 by the way)..
That's because the video is mis-labeled. That's the 40 move Yang style form, the "official" PRC Yang style competition form, rather than the more common 42 move combined competition form.

[Nexus]

So far i ony watched the 24 movement form. The form was graceful and elegant but lacked as Taichibob said the expressions of Power and Pung that the Yang form cultivates and embodies. Her form was very soft and at times was too collapsed (watch 3:50-4:15 for examples). Her kick was nicely executed and her snake crreeps down (4:42) was nice and low, the problem is her hand instead of her dantien lead the movement meaning when actually used in application it would be very poor effect. One thing I notice throughout is that her dantien does not act as the center consistently.

[shrub]

Nexus and TaiChiBob - can you guys post your version of the 24 form so that I can make some smart ass comments.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..


Nexus and TaiChiBob - can you guys post your version of the 24 form so that I can make some smart ass comments.I humbly apologize if my comments are perceived as "smart ass", that was not the intention.. i hoped others would confirm or challenge my observations so i could better understand the Art.. but, yes, if i can figure out the technology i will post my interpretation of the form (the holidays can always benefit from good comedy)..

The young lady that performs the 24 also has a 42 on YouTube, i think.. it is a bit better than the 24..

Be well..

[Judge Pen]

I am not a tai chi person by any stretch of the imagination, though I do 24 posture from time to time. Let me ask this: Should her knee extend out that far over her toes? I thought that was a no-no, but I'll defer to those that have more knowledge than me. I certainly can't do a better version than her.

[B-Rad]

I was taught that the knee shouldn't go past the ends of the toes, though I usually stop the knee a tab bit short of that line. When I go past is when I feel the knee strain. Some people prefer to teach where the lower leg is perpendicular to the ground (not over the foot at all). I think my teacher would probably get on her a bit for over extension. I imagine some younger taiji people can probably get away with it for awhile. I used to have this habit, but I find I feel the problem a lot more now at 205 lbs than I did at 175 lbs :p Still, I found myself doing this once in awhile when performing for strangers... I don't think she does it ever posture though, so she probably was taught correctly.

The only other things I can think of that my teacher would probably get on me for (if that were my performance) is a more even pacing (less start/stop fast/slow more even speed), and a couple slight differences in hand/arm position in the form. For example, in repulse monkey he'd get on me for bending the elbow too much and pulling straight back, and more relaxation on the bottom hand during the cloud hands portion (hers sticks out more, kind of like I learned in Sun style). Little tiny differences like that, which probably aren't too big of deals in the big picture. Her taiji is VERY good though. Probably the best 24 form overall I've seen on the net :)

[Ford Prefect]

I've been taught the same in regards to knees and toes...

[qiphlow]

watched the first minute or two of the 24: i liked her low posture and consistent speed. i did not like the fact that in her bow stances, the front knee consistently came past her front toe. i also thought the form was just too flowery--she'd probably win alot of wushu internal division tournaments with that form.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX6QDq_a39A&feature=PlayList&p=364AD9E09BBCDF4C&index=0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z6TDNKsPJw&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLS2yHhIYFQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy-wrEc87qA&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Bok-PUJyw&mode=related&search=

118 Yang forms.

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.6rooms.com/watch/8304.html

another clip of 24 forms Tai Chi.

:)

[wujimon]

It is true, the knees should not extend beyond the toes. Personally, I try not to extend the tip of my knee beyond my insole. In addition, I try to make sure the knees are also pointing the same direction as the toes.

[Egg fu young]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SrMpOy4pVug

[brucereiter]

hi egg fu young,

looks good, keep it up everyday.

here is a clip of me doing a version of the same form. http://youtube.com/watch?v=HesN9B4xVfA enjoy.

best,

bruce

[Ronin maximus]

Although your "version" might be better than the USSD version.

But I only know what Youtube tells me is real

[jigahus]

Looks like Yang Style.

[Egg fu young]

hi egg fu young,

looks good, keep it up everyday.

here is a clip of me doing a version of the same form. http://youtube.com/watch?v=HesN9B4xVfA enjoy.

best,

bruce

shaolindoiscool,

Good stuff! Thank's for the video. Great feeling knowing other people are practicing this form also. As I'm sure you can tell, I learned from a DVD "Paul Lam" and from watching http://youtube.com/watch?v=jywr8704HQQ. I had a Sifu who teaches 18 form practice with me a few times but I'm stumbling through this one pretty much alone.

Take it easy,

[B-Rad]

Looks like Yang Style.
Which vid are you talking about? The 24 form was taken mostly from Yang style, with a little bit of Sun style in the rocking step, and a couple other slight changes to the postures in spots. If you're talking specifically about shaolindoiscool's version, in addition to the many embellishments to the form, it looks like he might have changed back to a more traditional Yang style stepping method, though he does rock back a little bit. I can't tell if he just didn't feel like rocking back all the way (or can't for some reason) or is going for the Yang style approach.

[Egg fu young]

Sorry about the duplicate youtube replies. Stupid thing kept saying it didnt contact the web page when I hit sent so I sent it a few more times :)

[brucereiter]

shaolindoiscool,

Good stuff! Thank's for the video. Great feeling knowing other people are practicing this form also. As I'm sure you can tell, I learned from a DVD "Paul Lam" and from watching http://youtube.com/watch?v=jywr8704HQQ. I had a Sifu who teaches 18 form practice with me a few times but I'm stumbling through this one pretty much alone.

Take it easy,

keep up the practice. really think about your hands moving with your center. "if one part moves all parts move."

best,

bruce

[brucereiter]

Which vid are you talking about? The 24 form was taken mostly from Yang style, with a little bit of Sun style in the rocking step, and a couple other slight changes to the postures in spots. /QUOTE]

as i understand the 24 form it has influence yang, chen, wu and sun. for me i mostly see the yang and sun influence ...

[QUOTE=B-Rad;830266]
If you're talking specifically about shaolindoiscool's version, in addition to the many embellishments to the form, it looks like he might have changed back to a more traditional Yang style stepping method, though he does rock back a little bit.

i perform this form as it was taught to me so i am not sure about the "embellishments".
i do recognize and understand i perform it in a different manner than most.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tLxJsqV6qcM this is i think a common expression of the 24 form. it is not what i am interested in learning though.



I can't tell if he just didn't feel like rocking back all the way (or can't for some reason) or is going for the Yang style approach.
the yang style approach is what i am attempting :-)
i avoid the "rocking back and fourth" type of stepping. i learned this for after practicing another yang style form for some time so i am sure it has influenced my understanding and expression of the 24 form and the method of stepping i use.
as a side note my teacher does not "rock back and forth" when he does this form ...

here are some examples of my yang tai chi chuan practice.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9nJ3vwcR1EQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1c90Mrp3ffk

best,

bruce

[GLW]

Just to point something out...

The 24 Posture is a new routine created in the mid 1950's. It is also known as an ORTHODOX routine or form. By that, it is meant that there IS a very definite way to do it with very few deviations.

If you do 24 without the correct stepping - you may be doing Taijiquan but you are NOT doing 24 Posture - 24 has a very defined way to be done to be considered correct.

Ir you were to demonstrate in China or compete - in the US or in China - in a 24 posture division, you would be scored down for each deviation. Keeping in mind that 24 Posture has been required learning in the Wushu colleges in the PRC so it WILL be noticed.

So, where am I going with this - if you choose to USE the 24 Posture routine but modify it, it is no longer 24 so call it Taijiquan but do not call it 24. Sort of like if you were to take a VW beetle and remove the engine and replace it with a front mounted engine - V8 - it would NOT be a VW beetle (I actually knew of someone who did that and won a lot of pink slips racing due to people thinking of it being a beetle.

I am NOT saying what you would be doing is bad or worse than 24 - simply that by modifying a standard routine, you are no longer doing a standard routine.

[B-Rad]

as i understand the 24 form it has influence yang, chen, wu and sun. for me i mostly see the yang and sun influence ...

Not quite. It's mostly Yang, tiny bit of Sun, and no Chen or Wu... When it was adopted into Shaolin-Do I think they were a bit confused about it's origins. At least I first saw it mentioned in Shaolin-Do as the "Shaolin combined 24 form" combining the 5 main styles. It's the first form in the standardized system which does combine all the "major" styles in more advanced forms. I've seen the description corrected more recently... though as GLW pointed out, it appears there's been so many changes (lots added and taken away) it's not really the same form anymore.

[brucereiter]

Not quite. It's mostly Yang, tiny bit of Sun, and no Chen or Wu... When it was adopted into Shaolin-Do I think they were a bit confused about it's origins. At least I first saw it mentioned in Shaolin-Do as the "Shaolin combined 24 form" combining the 5 main styles. It's the first form in the standardized system which does combine all the "major" styles in more advanced forms. I've seen the description corrected more recently... though as GLW pointed out, it appears there's been so many changes (lots added and taken away) it's not really the same form anymore.



at my school in 1999 it was called the "shaolin combined 24 form" i wondered why it had the name "shaolin" attached to it. but as you say it has since been corrected. it was one of my first "questions" about shaolin do ...

[brucereiter]

Just to point something out...

The 24 Posture is a new routine created in the mid 1950's. It is also known as an ORTHODOX routine or form. By that, it is meant that there IS a very definite way to do it with very few deviations.

If you do 24 without the correct stepping - you may be doing Taijiquan but you are NOT doing 24 Posture - 24 has a very defined way to be done to be considered correct.

Ir you were to demonstrate in China or compete - in the US or in China - in a 24 posture division, you would be scored down for each deviation. Keeping in mind that 24 Posture has been required learning in the Wushu colleges in the PRC so it WILL be noticed.

So, where am I going with this - if you choose to USE the 24 Posture routine but modify it, it is no longer 24 so call it Taijiquan but do not call it 24. Sort of like if you were to take a VW beetle and remove the engine and replace it with a front mounted engine - V8 - it would NOT be a VW beetle (I actually knew of someone who did that and won a lot of pink slips racing due to people thinking of it being a beetle.

I am NOT saying what you would be doing is bad or worse than 24 - simply that by modifying a standard routine, you are no longer doing a standard routine.

i have no interest in forms competition:-)
i never refer to my expression of the form as the "standard routine".
my 24 form is very influenced by my other yang tai chi chuan training. (i think that is a good thing)
i will continue to call it "the tai chi 24 form" as that is what my teacher calls it.
as i said before i do it very different than most people.

tai chi chuan in my opinion is a dynamic art.

in my tai chi chuan practice what is important to me is understanding how to apply it to "fighting", becoming more healthy and having fun learning and practicing:-). i am not concerned with wushu competitions or impressing people buy looking exactly like her http://youtube.com/watch?v=jywr8704HQQ . she is very talented as are the millions of chinese who practice in that manner but like i said before that is not what i am interested in but i do recognize it as "standard".

copied from below link (to save typing time) this is one account of the 24 form history.
http://members.aol.com/sltcca/research/taireabs.htm
<<In order to standardize T'ai Chi Ch'uan for wushu tournament judging, and because many of the family T'ai Chi Ch'uan teachers had either moved out of China or had been forced to stop teaching after the Communist regime was established in 1949, the government sponsored Chinese Sports Committee brought together four of their wushu teachers to truncate the Yang family hand form to 24 postures in 1956. They wanted to somehow retain the look of T'ai Chi Ch'uan but make an easy to remember routine that was less difficult to teach and much less difficult to learn than longer (generally 88 to 108 posture) classical solo hand forms
Representatives of the original T'ai Chi families do not teach the forms developed by the Chinese Sports Committee. T'ai Chi Ch'uan has historically been seen by them as a martial art, not a sport, with competitions mostly entered as a hobby or to promote one's school publicly, but with little bearing on measuring actual accomplishment in the art. Their criticisms of modern forms include that the modern, "government" routines have no standardized, internally consistent training requirements. Also, that people studying competition forms rarely train pushing hands or other power generation trainings vital to learning the martial applications of T'ai Chi Ch'uan and thereby lack the quality control traditional teachers maintain is essential for achieving the full benefits from both the health and the martial aspect of traditional T'ai Chi training.
>>

i think the common way of stepping with the 24 form breaks some ideas that seem to be laid down from traditional yang tai chi chuan.

using part the horses mane as an example;
please give me your opinion of the pros and cons of the 2 stepping methods in question from a martial stand point? other than the before stated wushu competition standard ... i look forward to your opinions.

[GLW]

The entire idea is to NOT confuse people. If you refer to 24 in any manner, people will automatically think the standard routine. Simply call it Taijiquan. Those interested in the details will understand the idea of “based on 24 Posture standard set but adding back in or taking away…” Only those with a little knowledge ever ask that question. Many don’t even know the difference. They come in to a class wanting to continue Yang style…and then have to be told they are doing 24 or Cheng Manqing’s set. Or even Guang Ping (but usually they know the difference)

The rock step…no martial use…it was put in to reduce knee and ankle strain when teaching beginners. Similarly, there is a step to Ding Bu (toe of one foot by the solid other foot in a transition step) going from one side to the other in Part Horse’s mane and in Brush Knee…but in Yang, this step is NOT done. Again, the point is to encourage correct alignment, reduce the need for more leg strength, and reduce strain on the knee and ankle. The hand technique is almost the same…but the timing is different. There is a rhythm of each Taijiquan set. If you obtain the music used for group performances with 24, you will find that they are always in ¾ time….a waltz rhythm. Yang is more of an even timing – a 4/4 rhythm. Yang is hard due to trying to keep it even and large.

The signature move for Yang – Grasp Sparrow’s Tail – is way different in 24…same names, same order, but the application is reduced. The Yang circles are more compact but more important. Wave hands…totally different. More of a Sun influence in 24 for wave hands.

88 is NOT Yang style. It was created by Li Tianji…and is about as close to plagiarism as you can get – being Yang style filtered through with the rock steps and a couple of other moves added. (Yang Chengfu set is often counted as 85 sometimes as 103…sometimes as 108 but this is less common in the PRC than Taiwan. )

[brucereiter]

The entire idea is to NOT confuse people. If you refer to 24 in any manner, people will automatically think the standard routine. Simply call it Taijiquan. Those interested in the details will understand the idea of “based on 24 Posture standard set but adding back in or taking away…” Only those with a little knowledge ever ask that question. Many don’t even know the difference. They come in to a class wanting to continue Yang style…and then have to be told they are doing 24 or Cheng Manqing’s set. Or even Guang Ping (but usually they know the difference)

The rock step…no martial use…it was put in to reduce knee and ankle strain when teaching beginners. Similarly, there is a step to Ding Bu (toe of one foot by the solid other foot in a transition step) going from one side to the other in Part Horse’s mane and in Brush Knee…but in Yang, this step is NOT done. Again, the point is to encourage correct alignment, reduce the need for more leg strength, and reduce strain on the knee and ankle. The hand technique is almost the same…but the timing is different. There is a rhythm of each Taijiquan set. If you obtain the music used for group performances with 24, you will find that they are always in &#190; time….a waltz rhythm. Yang is more of an even timing – a 4/4 rhythm. Yang is hard due to trying to keep it even and large.

The signature move for Yang – Grasp Sparrow’s Tail – is way different in 24…same names, same order, but the application is reduced. The Yang circles are more compact but more important. Wave hands…totally different. More of a Sun influence in 24 for wave hands.

88 is NOT Yang style. It was created by Li Tianji…and is about as close to plagiarism as you can get – being Yang style filtered through with the rock steps and a couple of other moves added. (Yang Chengfu set is often counted as 85 sometimes as 103…sometimes as 108 but this is less common in the PRC than Taiwan. )

the "entire idea" for me is to understand how to apply the forms i practice. i do not care about forms competitions. at least you are calling what i showed as tai chi chuan lol :-) ...

reduce the need for leg strength ??? why? it is a martial art, it is not supposed to be "easy" if they made it easy for beginners are you supposed to adjust it when you become advanced?

if there is no martial use then why do it?
i think that these competitions have damaged the martial side of tai chi chuan in many ways.
i have no plans on doing the for to the "official music" ... i think that timing is unnatural since every one is shaped different if i did it at the same tempo as a 4'9" 100lbs chinese man it would be very odd. the music is for performance only i think.

having said that i do practice live and let live, so if you enjoy it and harm nobody do what you like ...

using your logic about confusing people let me ask this;
which of these do you think of as yang tai chi chuan? and why? they are all very different. in my opinion most of these are awesome. a few i dont like, which do you prefer?

Tung Ying Chieh
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ldAmH1zA7jU

Tung Huling
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rZHm-eNePI8&feature=related

Fu Zhongwen
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rRZLJVfT6h4

Yang Zhenduo
http://youtube.com/watch?v=t_hCCTTG3UY

cheng man ching
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fl2mvyjHYS0

Master Yang Jun
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7pna9ajZHKY

Liu Gaoming
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cq2uHsUkwA8

dont know the name (yang 48)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IFZUIgaxlsI&feature=related

wu tunan
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0QRj4aqLsu8&feature=related

Nui Chunming
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EnxokIPLzJM&feature=related

Master Ma Ping
http://youtube.com/watch?v=verv_b7TEGQ&feature=related

[mawali]

I no longer use the 24 Form name but I do refer to it while preferring Beijing Yang short Form or Beijing shi taijiquan. In my teaching I prefer to use Yang style characteristics meaning I limit sitback and pivot and repulsing monkey with its exaggerated head/neck looking back and a few other 'small points'.

Another preference is to tell my students is to build gong because doing the form itself has limited 'health benefit'. It is good for stretching and invigorating jingluo, relaxing the arteries bit it is too short a routine buy itself.

You want to build the gong of Beijing shi taijiquan. Here are some strategies:

a. If doing the 24 form /aka Beijing shi taijiquan (reference) , increase the 3 repetitions parts to 6 or 9 repetitions i.e. yunshou, brush knee, parting horses mane.

b. Do 15+ repetitions per day or more.

c. Do more post standing (zhanzhuang), ding shi, and taijizhuang. These are the roots of gong building! With (c), you can do 5-10 repetitons as opposed to 15+.

[GLW]

Tung (Dong) Yingjie and Fu Zhongwen were with Yang Chengfu. Fu learned only from Yang Chengfu..being a nephew through marriage. He was often criticized for…strangely enough … looking TOO much like his teacher, Yang Chengfu, when doing Taijiquan. Fu was reported to have felt that he was better trying to preserve than further what Yang Chengfu created. Tung Huling is one of the next generation or is it the third from Dong Yingjie. Fong Yingjie learned some Wu and a bit of Chen as well. He claimed that he and Yang Chengfu were working on a Yang fast set but no one else in the Yang family knew of this. Dong’s lineage has the fast set and does things a little different so it is becoming its own branch.

Cheng Manqing – made enough changes that many would argue that it is a separate style from Yang Chengfu altogether. Yang Jun is Yang Zhenduo’s grandson…and therefore 2 generations removed. Yang Zhenduo is the youngest of Yang Chengfu’s children and was 9 or 10 when his father died.

Wu Tunan learned other styles but was also reported to have had one leg almost 4 inches shorter than the other…which undoubtedly affects how he approached everything.

48 is NOT Yang. It is a combined routine …and has been incorrectly dated by some to 1976…but was created a few years after 24 Posture as a follow up…and definitely was created before the Cultural Revolution. It uses a substrate of 24 to hold things together and switches from style to style….but again, it is NOT Yang.

Fu Zhongwen is closer in posture to Yang Chengfu according to many…but he also suffered from gout…which affected his stepping a bit. He liked seafood and coconut milk…which didn’t help his gout any. I am a bit biased in favor of Fu – but that is due to lineage.

Currently, there are two major Yang family branches, Fu’s and Yang Zhenduos. Their sequence is the same but there are different flavorings. I will say that Yang style is the easiest style of Taijiquan I know to do – badly…and very difficult to do well…

[brucereiter]

Currently, there are two major Yang family branches, Fu’s and Yang Zhenduos. Their sequence is the same but there are different flavorings. I will say that Yang style is the easiest style of Taijiquan I know to do – badly…and very difficult to do well…

i have to agree about fu zhongwen, i like his stuff i also like the tung/dong way of doing things ...

[GLW]

Given that Dong Yingjie studied not only with Yang Chengfu, but with Yang Shao Ho (YCF's brother), with a Wu/Hao teacher, and with one of Wu Jianquan's sons - a melding of the four approaches would be understandable.

If you look at something like Guang Ping Taiji, the trace theris back to Yang Banho...and it is definitely different from Yang Chengfu's approach.

Dong has a lot more slant in his movements than people like Fu Zhongwen. He also puts a lot more back bend and twist than Fu or Yang Zhenduo. Personally, I attribute this to the influence of the other 2 styles of Taijquan in his Yang Chengfu routine. This is not a statement of good or bad...just an observation.

I personally like the cleanness of Fu Zhongwen's approach. Since Fu only studied with YCF, I would tend to think his is closer to what YCF did.

[GeneChing]

24 Posture Taiji Quan by Master Helen Liang (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-lh103.html)

[CYMac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gFaKUL1RY4

This is another video of 24 Form Yang TaiChi, sorry, but when I was performing this, my right leg was injured so bad, I have a hard time going low and doing stances.. it was filmed way back before.

[SPJ]

wow. an old thread.

it is now 2011.

:cool:

[GeneChing]

The 2nd annual KUNG FU TAI CHI DAY is June 2, 2013 at Plaza de Cesar Chavez in San Jose, CA.


Come join our Group Tai Chi Demonstration! (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/info/tournament/KFTCDAY_2013.php)
We will be staging a Group Tai Chi demonstration of Simplified 24 Tai Chi routine. We hope to get as many participants as possible. This is open to anyone that can recite the Simplified 24 Tai Chi routine.

No matter what your skill level, please come and join us! And plan to spend the day. There will be ongoing demonstrations from noted masters and local schools, as well as introductory workshops in basic kung fu, wushu, tai chi and qigong.

If you wish to participate, be sure to arrive by 10:00 sharp!

Simplified 24 Tai Chi routine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEJLM29ITMw)

[GeneChing]

If you have a school or club and wish to participate, there is an official T-shirt. Contact me for details.

We also just posted another version with the music: The Kung Fu Tai Chi Day Simplified 24 Routine. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV6PjN55Lb4)

[GeneChing]

Plus there's our new sweepstakes promo - Enter to win KungFuMagazine.com's contest for SIMPLIFIED TAI CHI Autographed by author Shou-Yu Liang (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/sweepstakes-SIMPLIFIED-TAI-CHI.php)! Contest ends 6:00 p.m. PST on 06/12/14. Good luck everyone!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQZ_oCHInus

[David Jamieson]

we call this the "Beijing 24".

:)

[No_Know]

B-Rad said, "So, where am I going with this - if you choose to USE the 24 Posture routine but modify it, it is no longer 24 so call it Taijiquan but do not call it 24. Sort of like if you were to take a VW beetle and remove the engine and replace it with a front mounted engine - V8 - it would NOT be a VW beetle (I actually knew of someone who did that and won a lot of pink slips racing due to people thinking of it being a beetle."

Because to look at the vehicle it Is a VW Beetle the analogy might more be switching out the body of the beetle for a high performance sportier vehicle. In this way how it drives is the same as 24 but the look of it has been snazzied-up and is not the external form of the engine driving it.

No_Know

[bawang]

B-Rad said, "So, where am I going with this - if you choose to USE the 24 Posture routine but modify it, it is no longer 24 so call it Taijiquan but do not call it 24. Sort of like if you were to take a VW beetle and remove the engine and replace it with a front mounted engine - V8 - it would NOT be a VW beetle (I actually knew of someone who did that and won a lot of pink slips racing due to people thinking of it being a beetle."

Because to look at the vehicle it Is a VW Beetle the analogy might more be switching out the body of the beetle for a high performance sportier vehicle. In this way how it drives is the same as 24 but the look of it has been snazzied-up and is not the external form of the engine driving it.

No_Know

beijing 24 was created for ease to learn and to look good. its not for fighting. the form makes no mao-dam sense.

[GeneChing]

See our SIMPLIFIED TAI CHI Autographed by author Shou-Yu Liang winners (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67815-SIMPLIFIED-TAI-CHI-Autographed-by-author-Shou-Yu-Liang-winners) thread.

[GeneChing]

Enter to win KungFuMagazine.com's contest for Simplified Tai Chi For Beginners - 24 FORM DVD Autographed by HELEN LIANG (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/sweepstakes-simplified-tai-chi-for-beginners.php) from KungFuMagazine.com! Contest ends 5:30 p.m. PST on 3/3/2016.

[GeneChing]

See WINNERS: Simplified Tai Chi for Beginners - 24 Form DVD Autographed by Helen Liang (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?69355-WINNERS-Simplified-Tai-Chi-for-Beginners-24-Form-DVD-Autographed-by-Helen-Liang)

[GeneChing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIcxxyMUii4

[GeneChing]

Practicing Tai Chi helps improve respiratory function in patients with COPD (http://www.chestnet.org/News/Press-Releases/2018/04/new)
Tai Chi offers a low-cost, easily accessible alternative to pulmonary rehabilitation, according to a new study in the journal CHEST®
April 4, 2018

Glenview, IL – Finding ways to help patients with COPD improve their functional status is an area of interest for pulmonary healthcare providers. Currently, pulmonary rehabilitation (PR) is used where available to improve exercise capacity and quality of life, but the treatment requires access to trained staff and specialized facilities. A new study in the journal CHEST® looked at Tai Chi as a lower cost, more easily accessed treatment option. Investigators found that this slow, methodical form of exercise is equivalent to PR for improving respiratory function in patients with COPD.

Tai Chi, an ancient martial art that involves significant levels of physical exertion, is gaining popularity, especially among older people, across the globe. Originating in China, Tai Chi incorporates stretching, breathing, and coordinated movement and requires no special equipment. “Knowing the potential benefits of Tai Chi, we hypothesized that, in patients being treated with medication to manage their COPD symptoms, it could help improve the quality of life when compared to a course of classical western style PR,” noted Professor Nan-Shan Zhong, MD, State Key Laboratory of Respiratory Disease, Guangzhou, China.

The study tracked 120 patients with COPD in rural China who had never used a bronchodilator. After beginning daily treatment with indacaterol, subjects were randomly assigned to groups receiving traditional PR or Tai Chi. Both the Tai Chi and PR groups showed similar improvements in Saint Georges Respiratory Questionnaire (SGRQ) scores, a standard measure of health status in patients with diseases causing airway obstruction. However, after twelve weeks, a clinically significant difference in SGRQ scores emerged favoring Tai Chi. Similar trends were noted in performance of a six-minute walk test.

“Tai Chi is an appropriate substitute for PR,” explained lead investigator Professor Yuan-Ming Luo, PhD, also of the State Key Laboratory of Respiratory Disease. “While neither training approach differed from the other by more than the minimal clinically important difference of four SGRQ points at the end of this 12-week study, an additional twelve weeks after discontinuation of formal training, improvements emerged in favor of Tai Chi in SGRQ score, six-minute walk distance, modified Medical Research Council dyspnea score, and quadriceps strength. We conclude that Tai Chi is equivalent to PR and may confer more sustained benefit.”

Subjects in the Tai Chi group met for formal instruction five hours per week for 12 weeks and were taught the 24 form Yang style. The results of the Tai Chi group were compared to that of another group of subjects who received PR 3 times a week for 12 weeks.

Tai Chi
After the initial 12 weeks, participants were encouraged to continue their Tai Chi either alone or with a group in their community; however, no formal assistance was provided to patients during this period. Those in the PR group were participants received verbal encouragement to remain as physically active as possible. Final analysis of all data was conducted 12 weeks after the formal training had concluded.

Image: Study subjects participate in a daily Tai Chi session.

For many patients, reducing the symptoms of COPD can greatly improve their quality of life. While medication continues to play an important role in treating COPD, the cost of those medicines can be a barrier for some patients, especially for treating a chronic illness like COPD.

“This study demonstrates that a low-cost exercise intervention is equivalent to formal pulmonary rehabilitation and this may enable a greater number of patients to be treated,” concluded lead author of the study Michael I. Polkey, PhD, NIHR Respiratory Biomedical Research Unit, The Royal Brompton & Harefield NHS Foundation Trust and Imperial College, London, United Kingdom. “Physical activity is key to reducing symptoms in COPD. We do recommend pulmonary rehabilitation, but our study shows that Tai Chi is a viable alternative when there is no local PR service. We encourage pulmonary rehabilitation providers to consider offering Tai Chi as an alternative therapy that patients would then be able to continue unsupervised in their own home.”

About the journal CHEST®
The journal CHEST®, the official publication of the American College of Chest Physicians, features the best in peer-reviewed, cutting-edge original research in the multidisciplinary specialties of chest medicine: pulmonary, critical care and sleep medicine; thoracic surgery; cardiorespiratory interactions; and related disciplines. Published since 1935, it is home to the highly regarded clinical practice guidelines and consensus statements. Readers find the latest research posted in the Online First section each week and access series that provide insight into relevant clinical areas, such as Recent Advances in Chest Medicine; Topics in Practice Management; Pulmonary, Critical Care and Sleep Pearls; Ultrasound Corner; Chest Imaging and Pathology for Clinicians; and Contemporary Reviews. Point/Counterpoint Editorials and the CHEST Podcasts address controversial issues, fostering discussion among physicians. www.chestjournal.org

About American College of Chest Physicians (CHEST)®
CHEST is the global leader in advancing best patient outcomes through innovative chest medicine education, clinical research, and team-based care. Its mission is to champion the prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of chest diseases through education, communication, and research. It serves as an essential connection to clinical knowledge and resources for its 19,000 members from around the world who provide patient care in pulmonary, critical care, and sleep medicine. For information about the American College of Chest Physicians and its flagship journal CHEST®, visit chestnet.org.

About Elsevier
Elsevier is a global information analytics business that helps institutions and professionals progress science, advance healthcare, open science and improve performance for the benefit of humanity. Elsevier provides digital solutions and tools in the areas of strategic research management, R&D performance, clinical decision support and professional education, including ScienceDirect, Scopus, SciVal, ClinicalKey and Sherpath. Elsevier publishes over 2,500 digitized journals, including The Lancet and Cell, more than 35,000 e-book titles and many iconic reference works, including Gray’s Anatomy. Elsevier is part of RELX Group, a global provider of information and analytics for professionals and business customers across industries. www.elsevier.com


THREADS:
Simplified Yang 24 form? (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?19386-Simplified-Yang-24-form)
Tai Chi as medicine (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?50553-Tai-Chi-as-medicine)

[GeneChing]

Interesting program.


Chinese students required to master Tai Chi to graduate high school (http://www.ecns.cn/news/society/2018-10-31/detail-ifyzmsck5338965.shtml)
1 2018-10-31 09:44:18 CGTN Editor : Gu Liping

Mastery of 24 basic Tai Chi moves is now required for students to graduate from high school in east China's Fujian Province, according to the latest statement from the province's education administration, triggering heated debate.

Tai Chi is listed as a mandatory sport in the high school physical education test, which makes up around 10 percent of the total grade, said the Fujian education department, reported Xinhua News Agency.

As one of the many branches of Chinese Wushu, the broad term applied to the country's various forms of martial arts, Tai Chi is known for its slow moves that are part of defense training. It's also practiced for its health benefits. Accompanied by regulated deep breathing, it allows the body to achieve a state of relaxation and harmony.

While supporters welcome the change as a way to promote traditional Chinese martial arts and help junior students to relieve academic pressure, others think Tai Chi is too mild a physical activity for active teenagers.

Schools in other Chinese cities and provinces have also tried to promote traditional Chinese martial arts and incorporated courses including Tai Chi and Kung Fu as parts of their compulsory curriculum.

However, interest in the martial art remains a challenge. Guo Yuzhao, head of Yidao Tai Chi School in Fujian Province, said that many local schools refused their offers to run the Tai Chi class for free.

Most of the young people nowadays lack the interest to learn traditional martial arts, said Chu Zhaohui, researcher from Chinese Education Science Research Institute. If schools forcibly incorporate martial arts as parts of the compulsory curriculum, it is likely to trigger students' reverse psychology and will do little help for the inheritance of the culture, he added.

Guo suggested the government, society and school should work together to improve the popularity of the traditional Chinese martial arts on the campus.

The country's authority should establish regulations to promote the education of martial arts; the school is responsible for gathering talents to explore and improve the teaching of martial arts on the campus; the whole society should encourage more martial arts agencies to enter the communities and attract more parents to bring their kids to learn martial arts, said Guo.

[GeneChing]

This might be premature, but I'm going to split this into an indie thread Tai Chi required for High School (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?71054-Tai-Chi-required-for-High-School) from our 24 Simplified Set thread (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?20652-24-Simplified-Set).



Chinese students required to master Tai Chi to graduate high school (https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d414d7a496a4d30457a6333566d54/share_p.html?fbclid=IwAR3UaZ_5OCtliEpyMzJ5StIhPiIr Yi02vuOb-HJMxfCn3jW8RQZeDS-_9fY)
CHINA CGTN
2018-10-30 18:26 GMT+8 Updated 2018-10-30 19:54 GMT+8

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d414d7a496a4d30457a6333566d54/img/9f1b28bdf6ee472c90e507bac8ed4364/9f1b28bdf6ee472c90e507bac8ed4364.jpg

Mastery of 24 basic Tai Chi moves is now required for students to graduate from high school in east China's Fujian Province, according to the latest statement from the province's education administration, triggering heated debate.

Tai Chi is listed as a mandatory sport in the high school physical education test, which makes up around 10 percent of the total grade, said the Fujian education department, reported Xinhua News Agency.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d414d7a496a4d30457a6333566d54/img/0bc4236d56524c3e8c89764fe3e187af/0bc4236d56524c3e8c89764fe3e187af.jpg
Primary school students in Nantong City, east China's Jiangsu Province perform Tai Chi in a local park. /VCG Photo

As one of the many branches of Chinese Wushu, the broad term applied to the country's various forms of martial arts, Tai Chi is known for its slow moves that are part of defense training. It's also practiced for its health benefits. Accompanied by regulated deep breathing, it allows the body to achieve a state of relaxation and harmony.

While supporters welcome the change as a way to promote traditional Chinese martial arts and help junior students to relieve academic pressure, others think Tai Chi is too mild a physical activity for active teenagers.

Schools in other Chinese cities and provinces have also tried to promote traditional Chinese martial arts and incorporated courses including Tai Chi and Kung Fu as parts of their compulsory curriculum.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d414d7a496a4d30457a6333566d54/img/14d81637fa5a4d1080a2721171f623dd/14d81637fa5a4d1080a2721171f623dd.jpg
Teacher show how to do Tai Chi for primary school students in Xingtai City, north China's Hebei Province. /VCG Photo

However, interest in the martial art remains a challenge. Guo Yuzhao, head of Yidao Tai Chi School in Fujian Province, said that many local schools refused their offers to run the Tai Chi class for free.

Most of the young people nowadays lack the interest to learn traditional martial arts, said Chu Zhaohui, researcher from Chinese Education Science Research Institute. If schools forcibly incorporate martial arts as parts of the compulsory curriculum, it is likely to trigger students' reverse psychology and will do little help for the inheritance of the culture, he added.

https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d3d414d7a496a4d30457a6333566d54/img/45955643ead3474195dc1ac6ee561efd/45955643ead3474195dc1ac6ee561efd.jpg
Primary school students in Xingtai City, north China's Hebei Province, learn how to perform Tai Chi under the guidance of teacher. /VCG Photo

Guo suggested the government, society and school should work together to improve the popularity of the traditional Chinese martial arts on the campus.

The country's authority should establish regulations to promote the education of martial arts; the school is responsible for gathering talents to explore and improve the teaching of martial arts on the campus; the whole society should encourage more martial arts agencies to enter the communities and attract more parents to bring their kids to learn martial arts, said Guo.