Ngo Cho Kun (Five Ancestors), origin of Karate?

[Vapour]

As some of you know, karate is not strictly speaking a Japanese martial arts. It was from okinawa and okinawan used it to fight against Japanese invader. Given the close proximity of okinawa to China and particularly to Taiwan, it has been always suspected that karate originate from Kung Fu. The main question was which style of kungfu.

I'm, at this moment, reading an article about origin of Okinawan karate. It's about kata called sanchin which is the heart of karate system. In this article it is clamed that Kanryo Higashona the teacher of Chojun Miyagi, the father of Gojuryu karate went to China and learned Chinese kungfu from a master for more than 10 years. The emphasis of the teaching was the sam chien (sanchin) kata of Ngo Cho Kun.

Is there anyone in this forum who do Ngo Cho Kun? If there is, can you authenticate this story.

[Royal Dragon]

Hi,
I do Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. The Sam Chien form you speak of was derived from Southern Tai Tzu's form San Zhen. It's pretty commonly accepted that the Ngo Chor guys got the original set from us, expanded on it, and it was later thought to have been the foundation of Okinowian Karate through the Ngo Chor system.

I hear certian Ngo Chor lines still teach a Tai Tzu San Zhen to this day. I have one of thier manuals, and the San Zhen they show is the first section (For the most part) of our San Zhen form.

[prana]

ngor = 5
chor = prince/teachers/

one of which is tai zhor

[Royal Dragon]

Tai Zho = Tai Tzu, the style founded by the Emperor Chao Kuang Yin, also known as Sung Tai Tzu.

I'm waiting for Joedoe to find this thread he's the man to talk to on this forum.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
Hi,
I do Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. The Sam Chien form you speak of was derived from Southern Tai Tzu's form San Zhen. It's pretty commonly accepted that the Ngo Chor guys got the original set from us, expanded on it, and it was later thought to have been the foundation of Okinowian Karate through the Ngo Chor system.

I hear certian Ngo Chor lines still teach a Tai Tzu San Zhen to this day. I have one of thier manuals, and the San Zhen they show is the first section (For the most part) of our San Zhen form.

In that case, have you seen performance of karate sanchin. Doest sanchin still has similarity to your sam chien form?

[joedoe]

To answer the original question, there is a theory somewhere that Ngor Chor was the influence that lead to Karate, but there is also a competing theory that it was Fukkien White Crane that was the influence. Both arts (I believe) have a Sam Chien set (as do many Fukkien arts).

The story as it was told to me is that there was a lot of trade between China and Japan at one point, with a lot of Japanese /Okinawan traders travelling to many places in the South of China. Quanzhou was a fairly large trade centre between the Chinese and Japanese/Okinawans and it is there that it is believed Ngor Chor was taught to the Japanese/Okinawans where it was modified into Karate.

As far as Tai Tzu being the root of the Sam Chien form, I cannot verify that. Tai Tzu is one of the ancestors from which Ngor Chor was founded, and within Ngor Chor there are several Sam Chien forms. one of which is the Tai Tzu form. As I said previously, Fukkien White Crane supposedly also has a Sam Chien form which is also included in Ngor Chor. So it really is hard to say which art originally formulated the first Sam Chien form.

[Royal Dragon]

Since Ngo Chor has Crane as a component, it adds credibility to the theory.

Also, it is possible Tai Tzu got San Zhen form the Crane style as well.

OR, it could be both South Tai Tzu, and the Crane style both got San Zhen independantly form the North Temple. I have seen that theory presented as well.

[joedoe]

Unfortunately we may never know :)

To be honest I am inclined to believe that Ngor Chor had a direct influence because I believe there is some Tai Tzu influence on Karate too. That would suggest the influence of both White Crane and Tai Tzu - which style has both? :)

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah Joe, I'm inclined to aggree with you on that one.

[joedoe]

Found an interesting website. Dunno if you have already seen it, but check out:

http://www.geocities.com/kungfu_galaxy/Southern/Welcome.html

[Royal Dragon]

I found this interesting on the Ngo Chor page

According to Chan Kok Eng, who purports to be one of the surviving masters of Ngo Chor, the art is composed of five systems, namely Tai Chor, Crane, Lohan, Monkey, and that of the Fighting Nun.

Reply]
Tai tzu consists primarily of the Northern Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, Northern Tai Tzu Hong Chuan, the Southern Tai Tzu Quan (6 short forms. Where San Zhen comes from), and the Monkey boxing (Northern, and Southern).

I haven't seen too much of our Monkey Boxing yet, but I am wondering if it is the same system you guys have or not.

[joedoe]

I don't know (I haven't heard back from Jamie yet so I haven't been able to compare notes :)). I have learned one monkey form, but from what I understand there are several monkey forms in Ngor Chor - based on the size of the monkey.

[Serpent]

Joe, how many times do I have to tell you. Masturbating at strangers in public is not a monkey form!

[SevenStar]

Ngo Cho - Go Ju?

[dezhen2001]

its also interesting if you compare not only sanchin from the naha-te styles like goju ryu and uechi ryu, but also tensho which is its partner :) There is also a form called "seisan" in the naha-te line that is called "hangetsu" in modern shotokan. They are all very similar.

i think i have seen (one of) the 5 ancestors saam chien... one of the main differences seems to be the stances. in karate there is a "sanchin" stance, which the feet are both pointed in towards the centre. Not unlike the wing chun stance, but with 1 leg forward and the feet are not so natural. if i remember right, 5 ancestors uses more a mabu kinda stance and shuffling steps forward from it?

The breathing is also very different, using a sharp exhale as the hands come forward whereas karate in the forms i have trained tended to use a slow exhale with tension as the body moves forwards.

just some things i can remember :)

joedoe: u must do gorilla style then :D

dawood

[dezhen2001]

7*: Go=hard Ju=soft Ryu=tradition

As far as i remember there are links with white crane as well, as some chinese merchants who studied it moved to okinawa and taught there. They were contemporaries with Kanyo Higashionna and Chojun Miyagi and Kanbun Uechi i think.

d@mn its been a while since i talked/thought about all this :D

dawood

[Royal Dragon]

(I haven't heard back from Jamie yet so I haven't been able to compare notes ).

Reply]
Your not going to hear form him, he shipped out for Iraq about 4-5 days ago. He's British military staioned in Australia, and his unit was called into action. He called me to say he was shpipping out in a day or two last Friday after noon (About 3-4 AM your time).

I think his Girlfreind is ruinning the school, and his seniors teaching till he gets back. You can send an E-mail, but ask to talk to Jarrod. He is trained in the Southern Tai tzu, and has some of the Northern as well. They are "Suposed" to be watching his E-mail, but I'm no getting any response form them, so they may not be. If I don't hear back from them, I'm going to call in a few weeks.

if i remember right, 5 ancestors uses more a mabu kinda stance and shuffling steps forward from it?

Reply
Yes, I think the Ngo Chor does do that. The tai tzu does as well.

[dezhen2001]

darn time difference huh? :D

dawood

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
7*: Go=hard Ju=soft Ryu=tradition

As far as i remember there are links with white crane as well, as some chinese merchants who studied it moved to okinawa and taught there. They were contemporaries with Kanyo Higashionna and Chojun Miyagi and Kanbun Uechi i think.

d@mn its been a while since i talked/thought about all this :D

dawood

I was thinking

Go=five Ju=soft Ryu=tradition(s)

Dunno if there's actually any correlation - I just wanted to get involved in the thread!

:p

[dezhen2001]

its all good in the 'hood... dude :D

dawood

[Vapour]

Originally posted by SevenStar


I was thinking

Go=five Ju=soft Ryu=tradition(s)

Dunno if there's actually any correlation - I just wanted to get involved in the thread!

:p

Not bad but in Japanese script, kanji used for go is not five but hard so that's a wrong guess. However, Uechi-Ryu karate, another major Okinawan karate are said to bears striking resemblance to Ngo Cho Kun. According to the article I'm reading, in the early 1900s, Uechi-ryu's founder Kanei Uechi Seniro, traveled to Fukien province to further his skills and learned a Kenpo style which he called in pangai-noon, which in fukien amoy dialect means pan-ngi-nang, which means "half-hard, half-soft".

[joedoe]

Serpent: Haha.

Dez: Actually, I first learned the medium-sized monkey but learned the first 10 moves of gorilla - actually very hard to get right but a frightening fighting style. I am too fat to do the small monkey :(. Spot on about the Sam Chien breathing. About the stance - I am not sure what you call a mabu stance, but we have the right foot forward with weight distributed 60/40 to the back leg.

RD: OK. I didn't realise he was a serviceman. In that case I hope he stays safe and gets back in one piece.

Interesting discussion. Wish we could have more like this :)

[dezhen2001]

joedoe: i was just playing sorry dude :( would like to see some someday :)

as far as the stance... hard to explain what i mean lol. I mean that it looks around the same width as mabu but with 1 leg stepping forwards... yup i remember the weight looks more on the back.

As far as the goju and shotokan kata i learned the "sanchin" stance is much different. imagine feet natural width apart... but this time turn the left foot in towards the centre and the right foot in also. Then step forward with the right foot so the left toes are pointing towards the back of the right heel. This is sanchin stance. Its much shorter and more "tension", less mobility than mabu. Kinda like a wing chun stance on steroids as our stance has feet a little in but is relaxed and more mobile :D it really trains the thighs etc.

dawood

[dezhen2001]

try looking at these :)

http://www.eastcoast.co.za/buddy/images/sanchi17.jpg
http://62.235.14.14/wr7334/images/bunkai-2.jpg
http://home.no.net/iogkfno/Engelsk_utgave/images/Morio%20Higaonna%20Tensho.jpg
http://www.saifa.co.uk/images/sanchin_group.jpg
http://www.eastcoast.co.za/buddy/shimetesting.html
http://orbita.starmedia.com/~gojuryuar/sanchin.JPG (this is think is kanyo higashionna teaching choyun miyagi possibly)

just found on google :p
dawood

[joedoe]

Originally posted by dezhen2001
joedoe: i was just playing sorry dude :( would like to see some someday :)

as far as the stance... hard to explain what i mean lol. I mean that it looks around the same width as mabu but with 1 leg stepping forwards... yup i remember the weight looks more on the back.

As far as the goju and shotokan kata i learned the "sanchin" stance is much different. imagine feet natural width apart... but this time turn the left foot in towards the centre and the right foot in also. Then step forward with the right foot so the left toes are pointing towards the back of the right heel. This is sanchin stance. Its much shorter and more "tension", less mobility than mabu. Kinda like a wing chun stance on steroids as our stance has feet a little in but is relaxed and more mobile :D it really trains the thighs etc.

dawood

No need to apologise. I know you were just having fun. I wasn't offended in the slightest.

I see what you mean about karate's sanchin stance. Looks a little unconfortable actually, but I guess so does our sam chien stance. Thanks for the links BTW.

[dezhen2001]

no problem dude - the saam chien stance i have seen doesnt look so bad :)

i find the differences in breahting particularly interesting... i have never seen the "pangai noon" or "uechi ryu" sanchin.. i wonder if its more similar :)

if you are interested, a book called the "Bubishi" by partick MacCarthy is a god one explaining the history of Karate.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0804820155/104-6832282-4230343?v=glance&s=books


dawood

[joedoe]

Thanks dude. I might look that one up. :)

['MegaPoint]

All Okinawan Karate is said to be influenced by 5 Ancestor's Chuan Fa and Fukkien White Crane. This is a topic of much controversy, but those dedicated karateka who have trained with the old style Okinawan Shinshii (teachers) will agree that the lineage they were taught includes Southern and Northern influences.

The Shuri Te or Shorin traditions trace their lineage to the Fukkien Shaolin Temple. Bushi Sokon Machimura (Matsumura) studied for many years at the Fukkien Shaolin Temple under the tutelage of Sifu Iwah. He learned Shaolin Chuan Fa and White Crane. He received a teacher's license and integrated these lessons with his knowledge of Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu (martial tradition of the Satsuma Samurai Clan) and the Ti he learned from Tode Sakugawa. He originally called his art Shaolin Ssu or Suidi. The Sanchin of the orthodox Ryu of Shorin, Matsumura Seito, is called Shorinji Sanchin Kata (Shaolin Temple Saam Chien Quan). Another high level form is the "Hakutsuru" or "White Crane" Kata. These forms are seen only in this style of Okinawan Karate, although there are other forms most notably Goju Sanchin, and Happoren, a White Crane based Naha Te Kata.

ShorinJi Saam Chien uses controlled, unforced breathing as compared to the raspy and forced exhalation of Goju. Use of open hand strikes are prevalent. Many teachers feel that the former is more natural and less harmful than the Goju Ryu Sanchin kata. They point to the fact that many ShuriTe stylists live well beyond their 80s , whereas the majority of Goju practitioners usually die in their 60s or early 70s; often from strokes, aneurysms or heart attacks. As a people Okinawans have one of the longest lifespans of any society on the planet. Food for thought.

Hohan Soken, the familial heir to Matsumura Seito (Suidi) ShuriTe, also studied with a Chinese tea merchant, Wu Xiangui, who went by the Okinawan name of Gokenki. Chojun Miyagi (Goju) and Kenwa Mabuni (S h i t o Ryu) also studied Gokenki's White Crane forms, and this further added to the Chuan Fa influence seen in Okinawa Karate. Any real Okinawan Sensei knows these things, and was taught and teaches, that these are fundamental parts of the true art of Ryukyuan Toudi (now Japanized to "Karate).

Hohan Soken also studied for many years on Taiwan in the "Feeding Crane" style. This further enhanced his understanding of the Crane aspect of Shuri Te, and created more diversity and options in an already well-rounded fighting style.

Higashionna Kanryo Shinshii, father of what is now called Okinawan Goju Ryu, learned some"Whooping Crane" Chuan Fa from a Chinese master by the name of Ru Ru Ko. He trained under Ru Ru Ko's Sifu too- Wai Xinxian. Uechi Kanbun studied Tiger Fist Gung Fu under Zhou Zihe. Neither of these masters earned a teaching certificate, but the added knowledge of these arts helped in the formation of the "Ti" (Okinawa Hand) that came out of the Naha district. Hence, the term Naha Te which denotes the Naha City styles of Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu (for the most part).

Shuri Te and Tomari Te, integrated and became Shorin Ryu. This style is a "hard-soft" one too, all Okinawan Karate is. In fact the genesis of the Goju Ryu name has a funny story of miscommunication behind it. It is more like second generation Whooping Crane Chuan Fa, with lots of closed fist strikes. Shuri Te tends to be fast, and offensive, with shallow stances and liberal use of hand techs. Low kicks are the norm, but in some ryuha (subsystems) high kicks are also taught. Positioning is key. Shuri Te is the major influence on Orthodox Shorin, whereas the other ryuha have many Tomari Te elements in their systems (Ryukyuan Kempo and Matsubayashi Ryu in particular). Shuri Te was the style of the palace guards at Shuri Castle, home of the Okinawan royal family. In fact Matsumura was the head palace guard for 3 Okinawan kings. He was over 80 when he retired!

Naha Te was the Ti of the ordinary man. The Sanchin of this style truly reflects the hard work needed to forge one's body into a thing of iron. Although open hand strikes predominate in Uechi Ryu and the movements are less tense in their kata, the same can be said for Uech Ryu. It's kinda' funny how many experts refer to Shuri Te as being an "External Style" and Goju and Uechi "Internal Styles", when their kata execution points toward the external side. I guess the use of more "circular" movement in Naha Te lends to this. Shuri Te makes use of angular and circular movement. Speed and quickness vs. deliberate power is definitely emphasized.

I'm writing a novel. Sorry. I trained in Okinawan Karate on Okinawa and in the P.I.. I feel a good Okinawan style has no real methodology other than making a person a better fighter, and as a result of knowing violence, a more controlled and compassionate human being. Okinawan stylists are always proud to praise and look to their Chinese roots with great admiration and respect. The karate seen on Japan wanted to do the opposite and got a couple of Okinawans to play into their ideas of making a beautiful amalgamtion of 3 cultures, into one sanitized, diluted, and often ineffective, competition based "martial" philosophy. I use that term "martial" very loosely. Luckily, people like Gichin Funakoshi were not instructed in the Hakutsuru and many Ti elements, as a lot of teachers knew their intentions. As a Shinshii on Okinawa, Funakoshi was regarded as being very mediocre. The karate you see now is broke Japanese kickboxing, with emphasis on sport. The Okinawan masters must be continuously rolling over in their graves. Maybe not though, as only a few people deserve to know real toudi kempo.

Other styles also affected Okinawan Karate. Seisan kata is said to be from Lion Boxing, Dragon Boxing and/or Arhat (Monk Fist) Boxing. Here's a cool website run by Kyoshi Ray Keller, a very high ranking Shorinkan Shorin Ryu karateka:
http://members.iapc.net/~kmap/styles/whitecrane.html
One of his senseis is my sensei, Kyoshi Ronald Lindsey- a direct student of Hohan Soken, and one of the highest ranking and knowledgeable Shorin Shinshii alive. Thanks for your patience, and I hope what I wrote wasn't too boring.

[SevenStar]

nice post! A lot of good info.

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by SevenStar
nice post! A lot of good info.

Thanks "G" *! Karate 101 at your service, sir!

[joedoe]

Extremely informative post. It clears up a lot of things for me. Thanks MegaPoint :)

['MegaPoint]

Originally posted by joedoe
Extremely informative post. It clears up a lot of things for me. Thanks MegaPoint :)

My pleasure, sir. Recounting Okinawan Karate history helps to keep the info fresh in my head. With the prevalence of "bad budo/bujutsu" out there, I like folks to know that there are still some semi-legit folks who train in karate. To now our unchangeable history is to better understand the pliable future. Train smart, and have a great week (and Spring Break for all you Yank' "spring breakers")! Bye...