Why use a crossed-arm Bong Sau?

[Stevo]

I have an old Wing Chun book which shows the following 'fighting application' of chi sau: somebody attacks you with a right punch and you defend it with a right Bong Sau, then, maintaining contact roll it into a right Tan Sau, then Pak Sau the outside of their right elbow with your left while delivering a high palm strike with your right. (The Bong/Tan looks superficially like those movements near the start of the first section of the wooden dummy form. I say superficially because the way I have learnt them in the dummy form, they are not applied in the sequential rolling manner described above).

(I won't mention the name of the book so as not to offend anybody, and will also stress that most of the other applications in the book appear to be sound).

So, my question: are there any situations where you would use a crossed-arm Bong Sau (excluding mistakes, which is the only case I can think of where I'd use it, and would then want to recover pretty quickly from it once I'd realised what I'd done).

Cheers,

Stevo

[Ish]

IMO since the bong sau is an emergency tech as in if u see it coming ud be better of doing something more aggressive, it is very likely that u will do it to the wrong side so its important to be able to recover quickly and affectivly.

[yuanfen]

Stevo- the crossed bong sao is their for a reason in the dummy form.

The bong and tan can help control the opponents structure
and control him from the outside after the inside contact
and there is great pressure in the middle.

You can also convert it to a strike on the inside while
controlling with the other hand.

Classic wing chun- lots of weapons -lots of possibilities
depending on what is open.

[reneritchie]

You turn around and out of the corner of your eye you see a punch coming. You have no time to determine left or right, or exactly how high it will be when it reaches you. You can take the shot, or you can pick an arm and sweep a Bong Sao and catch anything along the plane that might hit you. Then, once you've made contact, if you happened to have picked the "wrong" Bong Sao, you can "fix" it and transition into a better position.

WCK in the lab is about the ideals. WCK in real life is about instant adaptation to the conditions of the moment.

When I had the good fortune to visit Gary Lam sifu, he remarked that most people only had 1/2 of WCK, the ideals, and were missing the other 1/2, the "wrong". That meant, when things went wrong, as they would in real fighting, they didn't know how to continue).

I know when I learned, after we trained the ideals, we trained the "mistakes" and how to turn them to our favor.

But a book is always half writer, half reader.

[tiger_1]

stevo look: you can do bong sao in wing chun but reality its: ewry positions in wing chun have animal base and bong sao in selfe in ewry position must have bong sao ; one time im have some fight with some zvonko tho its aikido man that man can grap your hands for sure if you work forms and punches and blocade but whan you work full positions your balance and power its in hara in body so that man cant fight with me , is cant do allmoust noting can destroy my balance my center of power and in ewry position bong sao means great opportunity with great speed to make new positions and in same time punch and blocade - just friendly tiger_1:)

[PaulH]

Hi Stevo,

I'm sure Rolf Sifu can tell you quite a good deal on this wrong bong sau usage. The bong actually is wrong only if you stop. I was impressed when I saw Gary Lam do the bong to tan in one seamless motion. It feels like he tan da and the bong is just a small transition. Please send my regards to Rolf.

Best wishes,

[teazer]

Originally posted by Stevo
So, my question: are there any situations where you would use a crossed-arm Bong Sau


As a transition from inside to outside while staying in contact.
If your opposite hands are already engaged in some respect - depending on your relative body angle, sometimes it'll happen.
More often though, just because you go for the contact & their force on your arm requires it.

[Miles Teg]

ISH says
{IMO since the bong sau is an emergency tech as in if u see it coming ud be better of doing something more aggressive, it is very likely that u will do it to the wrong side so its important to be able to recover quickly and affectivly}.


.....but bong sau is very aggressive.

[Stevo]

IMO since the bong sau is an emergency tech as in if u see it coming ud be better of doing something more aggressive, it is very likely that u will do it to the wrong side so its important to be able to recover quickly and affectivly.

Hello Ish. I agree. It's easy to find yourself using it. The reason I'd be concerned if, say, I did a right Bong Sau to an opponent's right punch, is that it would leave my right side open to their left arm. In a great article I read by David Peterson on Biu Ji, he suggested recovering in a scenario like this with a right Biu Sau or chop to the opponent's throat or face so that the right arm aggressively regains the centre in one motion.

Cheers,
Stevo

[Stevo]

Stevo- the crossed bong sao is their for a reason in the dummy form.

The bong and tan can help control the opponents structure
and control him from the outside after the inside contact
and there is great pressure in the middle.

You can also convert it to a strike on the inside while
controlling with the other hand.

Classic wing chun- lots of weapons -lots of possibilities
depending on what is open.



Thanks, Yuanfen. Good points. Yes, I can see how pressure could force you to go to the outside into Tan Sau. In the interests of simplicity, directness and efficiency, and to cover my right side, I'd personally strive to try to recover by converting the Bong Sau to an inside strike, the way you say.

I always enjoy reading your posts.

Cheers,
Stevo

[Neurotic]

The reason I'd be concerned if, say, I did a right Bong Sau to an opponent's right punch, is that it would leave my right
side open to their left arm.

This is the reason you do the cross arm bong sau at the wrist, and make sure you take the requisite step to the blind side.

It enables you to keep safe distance, and give you enough time to recover, while still keeping you in range, and contact.

If you do it too deep in, yup, the second hand will come over and smack you out.

[Stevo]

Hello Rene

You turn around and out of the corner of your eye you see a punch coming. You have no time to determine left or right, or exactly how high it will be when it reaches you. You can take the shot, or you can pick an arm and sweep a Bong Sao and catch anything along the plane that might hit you. Then, once you've made contact, if you happened to have picked the "wrong" Bong Sao, you can "fix" it and transition into a better position.

WCK in the lab is about the ideals. WCK in real life is about instant adaptation to the conditions of the moment.

I agree, of course. I was meaning in my post that I didn't see how it could or should be used as a first line of defence, which was how it seemed to be presented in that book.

When I had the good fortune to visit Gary Lam sifu, he remarked that most people only had 1/2 of WCK, the ideals, and were missing the other 1/2, the "wrong". That meant, when things went wrong, as they would in real fighting, they didn't know how to continue).

I know when I learned, after we trained the ideals, we trained the "mistakes" and how to turn them to our favor.

Very good points. The way I'm being taught sounds quite similar - to ingrain the 'right' way to do things before learning how and when to do it the 'wrong' way (through Biu Ji). I'm in the process of ingraining the 'right' way.

Cheers,
Stevo

[black and blue]

We practise this type of Bong Sau where I train, and actually refer to it as the 'wrong bong'. We train it as a possible first line of defense in much the same way as Rene explained. It's not seen as an ideal position, but one you might find yourself in.

My Sifu says it's of prime importance to learn to map the body. ie. to flow from both good and bad positions we find ourselves in (flowing from one shape to another, one attack to another).

The wrong bong can flow into a lap and your other hand punch; it can flow into a fak sau to the throat; it can flow to tan accompanied with a palm to the floating rib, etc etc etc.

[Ish]

Hi miles, what i meant by something more aggressive is something that includes a strike of some kind.

[captain]

rene,every so often you make a comment that hints at the
sinister."train the mistakes",and i recall you not so
long ago saying that you didnt mind chi sau,even after you
had been "badly injured".are you doing what i think you are doing?

russ

[Stevo]

Thanks for all your replies. Lots of good points.

Tiger1.

If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that Bong Sau is good to use against grabs. Yes, this is one of the uses of Bong Sau that I've been taught, too.

PaulH

Sounds good. Yes, I will.

Neurotic

Thanks. I will try that out.

Black and Blue

Hi. Your 'wrong bong' drills sound good, and the need to flow, which I aspire to as well.

Cheers,
Stevo

[Neurotic]

let us know how the testing bed goes - bong sau is a great movement... always interested to hear other ideas and theories on it.