Complimentary Art to Wing Chun

[Sihing Tom]

Another style to Wing Chun

I was wondering, if someone has gained "proficiency" in Wing Chun after training for over a period of time, what would you recommend as another art to learn? Of course the art should compliment WC, and not clash with its core principles. Would it be another kung fu style, Japanese, Filipino, etc. ???

[TjD]

i'd say at most some from ground fighting (BJJ or wrestling), mabye judo if your interested in throws.
at least, nothing.

i don't see the point of adding any additional type of standup fighting to my wing chun - its all i'll ever need. however, i can see the benefits of mabye adding some training in jujitsu or wrestling to round out my ground game. but personally, i'd rather beat them with my WC than join them :D

[reneritchie]

Depends on what you think you're lacking. You can do like the "good old days" and go for a bit of a walk about. Try the hands of the local masters you meet, and see if any can show you your holes (bring a porta-raised platform for that extra oldsey feel ;).

(them's just jokes, not intended as actual advice for anyone to actually take)

Among the more popular it seems are other Southern fists like Hung Ga, Internals like Taiji, and groundfighting like BJJ. You can also try other WCK, if you want to be more specific, especially a sifu that concentrates on something different than you're used to.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Intersting question!

Well, if we are really really good at WC and have extra time to learn something else then for me it would something that did not effect what I have spent the time burning in. I would not want to do another fist fighting art as one is more than a lifetimes worth, but as mentioned, some Braz JJ would be good. I also think Jam Jong Hay Kung would be fantastic for anyone doing martial art.

Oh well, anyone else?


Regards,

[Phil Redmond]

I have been able to use Akijiujitsu with my WC. It works really well for a bouncer in a club. Also I think BJJ would be useful if you fall or are taken down.
PR

[AndrewS]

Greco, BJJ, Latosa Escrima, Muay Thai all have had good results for folks I know.

Andrew

[Sihing Tom]

Wing Chun is a complete art, I am sure you will all attest to that. I do not feel there is anything really lacking in it. The only thing lacking may be not enough practice! My training is far from complete. I was just wondering if there are other arts out there, that would be somewhat compatible to Wing Chun principles. I was thinking something in the line of Chin Na, or one of the Filipino arts to go along with my Wing Chun.

I have a great deal of faith in Wing Chun. It will always be my core art.

[TzuChan]

WC is not a complete art, go for BJJ or something else, grappling isn't thaught well at all in WC .. And perhaps aikido for some locks, but you'll learn those with BJJ anyway =/ Throws aren't all that necessary, chainpunch hil to the ground =)

[russellsherry]

hi guys although, i have trained in wing chun snice 1976, i am abrgainer in arnis de mano and i train under the top student of guro roland dantes, and i find becuase arnis works well for the street i can use simple things ok and as i olny do single stick mosly it does not matter much in regard to me being disabled i olny know the 12 strikes and some footwook but i find them very useful in my training if you find a good teacher look into arnis and be openminded about it .peace russellsherry

[taltos]

At our school, at least one class a week is devoted to Chin Na. It's been my experience that there is a lot of Chin Na that, while not a part of the WC system, certainly complies with it's principles. We learn applications of Chin Na that either allow us to maintain our WC posture, energetic, root, etc., or applications that allow us, when we are in a bad situation, to quickly get back to our WC posture, energetic, root, etc.

While not necessarily the same thing as totally learing another system, I have found tremedous advantage in learing the operational basics of other systems. By this I mean learning TKD kicks, or BJJ Holds, or even Greco-Roman Wrestling Takedowns. The more I know about what I might encounter, the more prepared I am.

I never learned to wrestle per se, but with the many wrestlers in the school (and my brother, who was a wrestler and has minimal WC experience), I was able to learn a vast number of ways someone would try to take me down, or what they would look for in terms of a "shoot opening." We'd go rounds, no to teach me to wrestle on the ground, but to teach me how to keep myself from getting taken down.

-Levi

[EnterTheWhip]

Argentinian Tango - lots of footwork. Plus an edge with the honey's.

[taltos]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Argentinian Tango - lots of footwork. Plus an edge with the honey's.

Word.

-Levi

[Sam]

Fut Sao Wing Chun has been a complete art for me that contains Chin Na, Grappling and ground work, pressure points and nerve striking, as well as a blend of modern and ancient fighting concepts. James Cama Sifu has trained in Okinawa and is proficient in Go Ju Ryu and Aiki Jujitsu. Cama Sifu believes that Fut Sao Wing Chun is the main influence to these arts. Fut Sao contains the higher concepts within it's Chin Na and grappling. My feelings are that if after extensive training in your original style one should look into more meditative and internal arts.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Sam
James Cama Sifu has trained in Okinawa and is proficient in Go Ju Ryu and Aiki Jujitsu. Cama Sifu believes that Fut Sao Wing Chun is the main influence to these arts. Some would say that it was White Crane.... But a common human trait is to take credit for others' success or existence.

[NeedsPractice]

Personally i would recommend escrima if you would like to learn some weapons and are not up to weapons training in wing chun yet, maybe pekiti tersia which is a close range filipino system since you are in nyc. Also from my experience the filipino arts shoudl feel like a pretty good fit with your wing chun.
then of course there is always some type of grappling , throwing or locking art. Or check out San Miguel Esckrima a medium to long range filipino art ,also in NY.

[[Censored]]

I was wondering, if someone has gained "proficiency" in Wing Chun after training for over a period of time, what would you recommend as another art to learn?

I would go practice whatever my former training partners were bad at performing. That may or may not be the same skill set as the stereotypical "shortcomings of Wing Chun".

[kj]

Originally posted by NeedsPractice
Personally i would recommend escrima if you would like to learn some weapons and are not up to weapons training in wing chun yet, maybe pekiti tersia which is a close range filipino system since you are in nyc. Also from my experience the filipino arts shoudl feel like a pretty good fit with your wing chun.
then of course there is always some type of grappling , throwing or locking art. Or check out San Miguel Esckrima a medium to long range filipino art ,also in NY.

Small world ... not that many people seem to know about San Miguel. I have some friends who faithfully traveled to NYC to learn it; not sure if they are still actively traveling to train or not, though they still practice that and Pekiti Tirsia.

From what I saw, the San Miguel was a some impressively vicious stuff. And as I recall, the forms went on and on and on and on and on - it was a test of stamina just to watch, LOL. I have a very healthy respect for my Escrimador friends, and glad they are on the side of good. :cool:

Much of their practice would be inconsistent with my way of training in Wing Chun (fundamental differences in body mechanics, for starters). But everyone I know who does it or has tried, really enjoys it. Thanks to playing some with those guys, I learned how to effectively hit with a stick in short order. I remember when I first tried to hit with a stick, I did it really dumb, LOL.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[NeedsPractice]

yes the form is long, i dont know it all yet but it is very relaxing when i get into it. I like the emphasis on using your body not just isolated arm strength, just over a longer distance than wing chun, plus the fluidity of motion. Keeping your weight low but with agile footwork etc. I have a long way to go in wing chun and san miguel but for me its a good fit.

[Sam]

Wip, you are right that Fukien White Crane was the main influence but Fut Sao was the internal concepts taught within the temple. Many Shaolin styles contain a Fut Sao form which are usually short hand movements and high level concepts.

[Stevo]

I'm happy to be concentrating on Wing Chun and want to learn the whole syllabus and work on it for many years (ie. for the rest of my life). I don't want to learn any other striking art (even though I like others, such as Bagua), but I am interested in learning a lot more about pinning, throwing and grappling. I would learn Jiu Jitsu or Judo or Chin Na if I could, but there are no teachers where I live. When I move next year, I will take up one of those. But Wing Chun will always be the most important to me.

Stevo

[Grendel]

The best supplementary art to Wing Chun is water polo. If you plan it right, most fights go on in the water. :p

Regards,

[captain]

i can already see how my judo would blend in with wing chun.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Let me add my two cents to this thread...I recommend Catch-as-catch-can wrestling to go with your Wing Chun...check out www.mattfurey.com

[anerlich]

Some sort of submission grappling including groundwork, some training with non-traditional weapons (stick and knife), and, depending on where you live, tactical firearms training.

[Sihing Tom]

Thanks everyone. I am leaning towards the Filipino arts. From the good advice from this forum and speaking to other people, that seems to be the route that will suit me the best.

[foolinthedeck]

i'd recommend fencing or some other sword skill, perhaps kendo. Take what u know and apply to something else. But i'd also say that qigong can be vital because unlike taiqi wing chun neglects internal development, also hard qigong for that matter. Another martial art suggests that you feel you have mastered wing chun which may not be the case.

[foolinthedeck]

oh yeah,
CHENG HSIN.
next develop consciousness. i've written to Peter Ralston on the topic of wing chuns suitability next to daoist arts like taiqi and bagua, although he is dismissive of wing chun i could see it working well.
regards.

[NeedsPractice]

Wing chun has internal aspects, not every school may stress it, nor every practitioner may work on it. I am not claiming it is equal to tai chi or hsing i in regards to qigong or however you would like to phrase it.

[Chen Zen]

Has everyone forgotten Eagle Claw? Pak Sao to an Eagle claw wrist grab to Eagle claw grab to the neck...devastating. Eagle claw will be the next art I learn after Wing Chun.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Argentinian Tango - lots of footwork. And here I thought you were strictly a Salsa man !

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
Eagle claw will be the next art I learn after Wing Chun. "After Wing Chun"???? Is there such a notion?

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Matrix
And here I thought you were strictly a Salsa man ! Salsa I recommend to beginners - Tango for advanced concepts. Salsa doesn't provide you with the take down range.

[Sihing Tom]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
Another martial art suggests that you feel you have mastered wing chun which may not be the case.

Foolintheneck,

You are right, that is not the case. Far from mastering Wing Chun. My sifu felt that I am at the point of my development, 15+ years and still ongoing, where I can go and examine other arts. To see how Wing Chun's principles and concepts compare to them. Sun Lu Tang excelled at both Xingyi and Bagua.

[Sihing Tom]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
Has everyone forgotten Eagle Claw? Pak Sao to an Eagle claw wrist grab to Eagle claw grab to the neck...devastating. Eagle claw will be the next art I learn after Wing Chun.

Chen Zen,

Have you studied Eagle Claw? It was my first art, which I did for 5 years during my teenage years. It gave me a solid foundation in kung fu. But I chose a different path, which lead me to Wing Chun. You will immediately notice that the concepts and principles of both styles are contradictory to one another.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
Salsa I recommend to beginners - Tango for advanced concepts. Salsa doesn't provide you with the take down range. So much to learn, so little time. :cool: Thanks for the clarification.

Matrix

[anerlich]

Salsa I recommend to beginners

Mmmm. I'm more of a guacamole man myself. Partial to a bit of French Onion dip too.

[reneritchie]

Can't go wrong with Guac. Of course, this being a Kung-Fu forum, gotta give props to spicy plum, and of course, peanut...

[Matrix]

Originally posted by anerlich
Partial to a bit of French Onion dip too. Do we have to call it Freedom Onion dip now?? Sorry, I couldn't resist. :p

[kj]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
"After Wing Chun"???? Is there such a notion?

Not from my frame of reference.
- kj

[yuanfen]

Beyond wing chun? Or after?


the woods are dark and deep...
but I have promises to keep
and miles to go, before I sleep
and miles to go before I sleep.

(an universal perspective on any serious journey- from Robert Frost))

[anerlich]

Originally posted by Matrix
Do we have to call it Freedom Onion dip now?? Sorry, I couldn't resist. :p

LOL.

How about Freedom Kissing? Freedom Toast? and .....

(sorry)

Freedom Letters :eek:

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by anerlich


LOL.

How about Freedom Kissing? Freedom Toast? and .....

(sorry)

Freedom Letters :eek:
Thanks, those sound right, but can are we boycotting Freedom cuffs, removing my Freedom doors, and objecting to Freedom horns?

[punchin bag]

Theory 1:
Wing Chun is a line art. So, compliment it with a circular art.

Theory 2:
Wing Chun relies on too many punches. Learn something with one-hit devastation.

Theory 3:
Learn something Wing Chun is 'supposed to' and 'rumored to be' good against. There are a lot of legends going around about how WC/WT people can kick CLF, Hung Gar, etc etc. 's butt. Why not see things from the opposite point of view I am sure they have similar stories to tell. Related: learn every move/skill that will destroy a WC/WT artist.

Theory 4:
Wing Chun is short ranged. Learn long range. Or groundwork. Or archery. Or artillery.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by anerlich
How about Freedom Kissing? Freedom Toast? and .....
Oh,....... Freedom Toast is already official, along with Freedom Fries. http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/11/sprj.irq.fries/
BTW, I am not trying to make a political statement here. It's just the lighter side of a very serious issue.

Matrix

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
"After Wing Chun"???? Is there such a notion? I'm not sure.................Is there Wing Chun in the after-life??

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by punchin bag
Theory 1:
Wing Chun is a line art. So, compliment it with a circular art.Wrong. Wing Chun is both linear & circular.


Theory 2:
Wing Chun relies on too many punches. Learn something with one-hit devastation.Wrong. Practioners, who lack a deeper understanding of Wing Chun rely on multiple punches.


Theory 3:
Learn something Wing Chun is 'supposed to' and 'rumored to be' good against. Wrong. Arts do not beat other arts. Practioners of an art can beat practioners of an other art.


Theory 4:
Wing Chun is short ranged. Learn long range. Wrong. Wing Chun is both short ranged & long ranged.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by punchin bag
Theory 1:.........Theory 4: If you start off with a faulty premise, you are more than likely to end up drawing the wrong conclusions. Case in point.

Matrix

[punchin bag]

I just wanted to add some ideas for discussion. Being tagged as utterly wrong and 'whipped' without a good explanation, apart from what I've heard from my old instructor. He said exactly the same things back then, and I actually believed him. If you had experience in a fight situation against someone competent of another art, you might see some shortcomings in the system. But I know you won't listen :D I didn't.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by punchin bag
obviously you don't need to take other people's opinions into consideration. Only a few people.

[anerlich]

'whipped' without a good explanation

Welcome to the club. It's happened to most.

[anerlich]

Originally posted by Matrix
Oh,....... Freedom Toast is already official, along with Freedom Fries. http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/11/sprj.irq.fries/
BTW, I am not trying to make a political statement here. It's just the lighter side of a very serious issue.

Matrix

The "lighter" side? More like the lunatic fringe. People who take this sort of thing seriously are nuts IMO.

[KenWingJitsu]

Funny. I'm sure no one think wing chun has ALL the answers do they? Just cos we love soemthing shouldnt mean we put blinders on and deny what eveidence there may be for the need for supplementation.

[TjD]

Originally posted by punchin bag
I just wanted to add some ideas for discussion. Being tagged as utterly wrong and 'whipped' without a good explanation, apart from what I've heard from my old instructor. He said exactly the same things back then, and I actually believed him. If you had experience in a fight situation against someone competent of another art, you might see some shortcomings in the system. But I know you won't listen :D I didn't.

to play the devil's advocate:
so how long had you practiced wing chun before fighting someone "competant of another art"?
what was your previous martial arts experience at the time?

how long had that other person been practicing?


not to put you or anyone down, but i see many people mistaking an art's ability to work for their inability to execute it.

[[Censored]]

Funny. I'm sure no one think wing chun has ALL the answers do they?

Name a problem to which Wing Chun has NO SOLUTION.

Just cos we love soemthing shouldnt mean we put blinders on and deny what eveidence there may be for the need for supplementation.

Cite please. I presume you aren't talking about TV shows.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Funny. I'm sure no one think wing chun has ALL the answers do they? Mine certainly does. Perhaps we have learned very different Wing Chun...

We can't all learn under the same people... now can we.? Sorry for your loss KWJ.

[KenWingJitsu]

Wow. You have ALL the answers? Cool. And what mountain of delusion do you reside on?

Perhaps you can share with us how many times you've put your skills to use? Or which formats you've tested them in? Or what titles you've won?

Something? Anything?

Denial...river...Egypt.

Here come the wrath of the "wing chunners" lol. You should be making a few milion bucks in the ring if you have all the answers? no?

[EnterTheWhip]

You learn your lessons hard, don't you?

By the way, how 'bout a reply to my "centreline theory" thread...?

[KenWingJitsu]

Nah, you're not worth replying to. Besides. it seems you're doing a fine job of aswering your own questions, so keep it up. Must be great to have all the answers. You don't need me....

Grinding Hands;
I have some limited exposure to Silat, and while I have found some of it interesting, I have found too many limitations on it. I actually think the grappling aspects of it work better than the striking aspects believe it or not.
What do you do in the case of someone who clinches with you? I assume when you're trying this out 'live' you encounter this problem when you're trying to 'trap the foot' don't you?

[Grinding Hands]

Oops crap your were asking how i would respond using silat. Sorry im not a silat practioner. I play around with some guys who practice it. Its up there in the "Styles i wanna study some day list".

Sorry

P.S. Please ignore my last post

[KenWingJitsu]

Oh my bad Grinding Hands. i though when you said "Butki Negara a sub-system of Silat Serak " I thought you meant you studied it (a Silat sysyem. )

How different is the style you study?

[reneritchie]

Funny. I'm sure no one think wing chun has ALL the answers do they? Just cos we love soemthing shouldnt mean we put blinders on and deny what eveidence there may be for the need for supplementation.

What's the best car? The H2 for flat out speed on the Autoban? The Diablo to drive carpool for your kids hockey team? The Ford Focus for Amazon offroad?

WCK is a vehicule like any other. If your needs match perfectly, you're fortunate. If not, you need to be fortunate to have more than one ;)

[KenWingJitsu]

Rene speaks much truth. :D Which is not uncommon.

[mun hung]

Rene - good analogy.

Myself? - 3 cars and 1 martial art.

Wing Chun lacks nothing - needs nothing. IMO - the only thing lacking is the understanding by most of it's practitioners representing the art.

[EnterTheWhip]

Amen to that.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wing Chun lacks nothing - needs nothing....and then someone said: amen to that...

Guess what? I've got a bridge here in Brooklyn I'd like to sell to the both of you!

iI love Wing Chun, (especially Traditional WC), but please wake up to reality...real fighting is about striking, kicking, grabbing, and grappling.

[yuanfen]

ultimatewingchun- sorry to disagree with you. To each his own.

[yuanfen]

ultimatewingchun-


good wingchun has those things.

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
iI love Wing Chun, (especially Traditional WC), but please wake up to reality...real fighting is about striking, kicking, grabbing, and grappling.

Real fighting, IMO, is about the communication of intent, not marketing, fads, or mental groupings.

[reneritchie]

Wing Chun lacks nothing - needs nothing. IMO - the only thing lacking is the understanding by most of it's practitioners representing the art.

That's true enough. Look around the Web and you can find WCK that looks just like Karate (even with jumping spinning kicks), just like Taijiquan, just like Hung Ga Kuen, just like kick boxing, and even just like sub wrestling. It's amazing! ;)

WCK, IMHO, is just WCK. A master carpenter can do incredible things with just a screw driver. He can bang in nails, lever things open, scrape things along the surface, puncture things, push and prod things, etc. etc. It may not be as good as the proper tool for every situation, but it can get you pretty far if you don't have the proper tool, but do have a dedicated and creative mind. But it's still just a screw driver, not an uber tool, and IMHO, it would be a mistake to forget that.

(FWIW - I have no problem with people trying to use WCK for everything or with people who use more than one approach specifically, both approaches can be bad or good depending on the individual).

[reneritchie]

Real fighting, IMO, is about the communication of intent, not marketing, fads, or mental groupings.

Burnsypoo once again Saat Kiu's correctness.

(Don't... don't... don't believe the hype...)

[mun hung]

quote :
"iI love Wing Chun, (especially Traditional WC), but please wake up to reality...real fighting is about striking, kicking, grabbing, and grappling." - thanks for the advice but I think we've got it covered. (at least some of us)

If you feel that "your" Wing Chun is inadequate against striking, kicking, grabbing, and grappling - well...I'll probably agree with you.

I been reading some of your posts and I have to say - In all the years that you've learned Wing Chun did you feel your Wing Chun was inadequate? Or was it a recent UFC video that woke you up? When did it first occur to you that your Wing Chun did'nt work? Was there no striking, kicking, grabbing, and grappling "back in the day"? Did you waste all those years just to find out you need "catch" wrestling in your diet? And from video tapes and books??? How about an actual instructor everyday?

I liked Rene's analogy so much, now I'll give mine:

Wing Chun is like a bicycle that is capable of riding on all surfaces. If you know how to ride it well - you are always in control and you never end up on the ground.

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun but please wake up to reality...real fighting is about striking, kicking, grabbing, and grappling. [/B]Ultimate, I'm not sure to what heights your understanding of Wing Chun extends, but mine definitely trains/covers all that you mentioned. My Wing chun is not solely a hand art. Sorry if yours is.

[reneritchie]

If you know how to ride it well - you are always in control and you never end up on the ground.

There are some crazy SOBs who try to cycle their way through the blizzards and freezing rain and -40c Montreal winters. I try not to hit them with my SUV... 8)

[EnterTheWhip]

Not very Wing Chun.

[reneritchie]

LOL! Don't be jealous. The Ladda is still a fine little car 8P

[EnterTheWhip]

what is the Ladda?

[mun hung]

I sure missed my SUV this year. As soon as I traded it in - we get the worst winter in years. I did get to do lots of doughnuts with my sportscar though. :)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by burnsypoo
Real fighting, IMO, is about the communication of intent, not marketing, fads, or mental groupings. Sure, go ahead and burst my bubble. Oh, the agony. :p

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
what is the Ladda? The Lada is a Russian automobile. Probably one of the worst cars ever made on the face of the planet. Here's an excerpt from the user's manual :

"A comfortable high-speed light five-seater, the 2101 is capable of moving over all types of road except the earth roads rutted by heavy cargo trucks.The car will operate successfully at ambient temperatures from +50ºC to -40ºC." :p

Now if that inspires you, you can find more at http://www.lada.co.uk/

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by Matrix
Sure, go ahead and burst my bubble. Oh, the agony. :p

Wait, are you in "trapping range"?
hehe.

[Matrix]

Frequently. :cool:

[reneritchie]

Matrix - I spent more time than I would have liked in the bright little red Ladda taxi's of GZ. They're worse than most think ;)

Now you're namesake from Toyota (what Chevy rebrands the Vibe) could kick its butt.

[Ultimatewingchun]

mun hung on: Nice to know you've been reading my posts...seems a bunch of people take exception to the grabbing and grappling blinders remark although it's clear that they don't really understand what I mean..until now, I hope!

But first let's go back to mun hung on's remarks about me personally: I grew up on the streets of Brooklyn, having my first street fight literally at the age of six, and a bloody one at that since the bully down the block decided to punch the cast on my right hand and forearm - initiating considerable bleeding from my hand right through the cast..there were 300 stitches...yes, you read that right - 300 stitches in my hand, from plastic surgery performed two weeks earlier..and I started punching back with my left hand, biting, clawing, etc. until an adult broke it up...Many fights on the street occurred all the way to about 19 years old... and several real street fights as an adult - not to mention numerous chi sao and /or sparring encounters through the years that turned ugly and "fight-like"...

I know what a REAL FIGHT looks and feels like, and for the last 15 years or so I have done chi sao/sparred/grappled with many excellent fighters in their own right who have joined my school - with various martial arts backgrounds as I've posted before.

I actually started to learn catch wrestling techniques about the age of 12, stuck with it about 4 years, and used some of it during altercations one the street from time-to-time..before I took up wing chun with Sifu Moy Yat ( and then William Cheung). About 10 years ago I started working with grappling moves again (BJJ moves from the numerous UFC and Pride Videos I have) and MOST OF ALL...the $600. Farmer Burns 12 volume catch wrestling series put out by Matt Furey...which is an INCREDIBLE display of catch techniques, submissions, reversals, strategies, traing methods, etc. - whatever you may think of Matt Furey as a wrestler/fighter...It'e about the TECHNIQUE. His 2 volume series Street Grappling is also excellent.

I've worked hard integrating many of these moves with Traditional Wing Chun going up against some very tough, skilled, and big students who have been with me for years now...Many of whom grew up within the 5 boroughs of New York and also understand what a FIGHT is about as well as I do...not that fights don't occur elsewhere, but as the song goes...'IF YOU CAN MAKE IT HERE YOU CAN MAKE IT ANYWHERE!"

Now...By GRABBING AND GRAPPLING I don't JUST mean the grabs and traps, and slaps around the wrist, forearm, and elbow area that Wing Chun employs so well...after reaching that close infighting range woth someone it is NOT THAT DIFFICULT for him to start grabbing you (the WC fighter) around you're upper arms, shoulders;perhaps an attempt at a headlock, a front bear hug, etc. IF HE IS A SKILLED AND AGGRESSIVE FIGHTER INTENT ON RESISTING AND PUNISHING YOU...( by the way...the whole issue of someone stiffening up, grabbing, and resisting against the "flow" that the WC fighter "prefers" could generate a whole new thread)...

I'm not saying it's impossible to neutralize some of these moves, some of the time using WC techniques and principles but to rely SOLELY on wc chi sao, wooden dummy techs, etc. to stop these things- no matter how many years or how skilled you've become in Wing Chun is to OVERESTIMATE WING CHUN...it has it's limitations...and I haven't even spoken yet about all the challenges presented to a WC fighter by a BJJ or Wrestling shoot to the legs..ESPECICALLY

[Ultimatewingchun]

...ESPECIALLY when the shoot is being preceded and disguised by some other attack (ie.-a punch) first...you may think you've trapped someone with one hand and punch him with the other only to find that he "took the punch" and then went right down and in to grab your legs and take you down!

Do you think that you can ALWAYS stop an attempted takedown with WC striking and kicking techniques?

mun hung on wrote: "Wing Chun is like a bicycle that is capable of riding on all surfaces. If you know how to ride it well- you are always in control and you never end up on the ground."

I'll say it again: You better know some sort of grappling to augment your WC if you want to truly be able to FIGHT if you have to...unless of course you prefer to just "play-act" in some WC school; convince yourself that this is all you 'll ever need...but all the while making sure that you never really get TESTED ON THE STREET ...and then come on some website and preach to the choir while trying to admonish the infidels who dare to share something valuable with you from their REAL experience!

[reneritchie]

Victor,

Great post! As I mentioned on another thread, we have local MMA schools drilling (not as in 100 punches, but as in hours a day against resistant opponents) just those scenarios - take a punch or elbow and move right into the single/double leg, eat a kick and move right into the leg, throw some punches and clinch and... And the way they train makes them not only technically skilled, but strong and fast (who cares if they can't keep it up when they're 90, you probably won't be brawling with them then).

Another thing to consider, of course, is if you're *already down*. Attacked while sleeping in bed, while lounging in the park, after you slipped and fell on some beer soaked floor, etc. You don't need to know just how to prevent yourself from going to the ground, but how to defend yourself if you're already there, and how to get up if you need to.

[fa_jing]

You can't always even assume you will be the best with your hands - anything can happen. You may want to clinch and take the OTHER guy down with leg hooking or something else. I found that alot of my realistic sparring sessions ended up on the ground at some point. From there, it really doesn't take a whole lot of training to be able to at least hold your own. Learn basic guard/mount positions, escapes, etc. Even basic kicks from the ground.

I mean, we don't all have 12 hours a day over 7 years to practice Wing Chun, so it's a shortcut in terms of dealing with those emergency situations that can arise.

But to each his own

[Matrix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
I spent more time than I would have liked in the bright little red Ladda taxi's of GZ. They're worse than most think ;) Rene, my brother used to have a Lada. I'm not quite sure how it he kept it running as long as he did. :o . As for the Toyota Matrix, I don't much about it except that they ripped me off. ;)

Matrix

[reneritchie]

Now how could they go and steal what you spent so much time and effort rippin off from the Washowskis? (sp?) 8P

[EnterTheWhip]

A great story. Just as, many have not had the extent of your fighting experience, you may not have been exposed to Wing Chun that covers all that you have mentioned. Most Wing Chun does not.

You have simplified Wing chun to slaps, traps, and whatever else. Perhaps that is yours, mine is not.

[reneritchie]

Is Wing Chun Kuen by every other name still Wing Chun Kuen... Ah, there's the rub.

[KenWingJitsu]

Other than the fact that you spent waaaay too much money on those catch tapes (you should have gotten Mario Sperry's set instead for less than half that price), EVERYTHING Victor said....I agree with.

(Did I say that?) Maybe it's because we have similar backgrounds/experiences.

Denial ai't just a river in Egypt :D

[Matrix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Now how could they go and steal what you spent so much time and effort rippin off from the Washowskis? (sp?) 8P Exactly my point, hence the wink-smilie. Fer cryin' out loud, what's the world coming to. :)

Matrix

[reneritchie]

KWJ is correct about the tapes.

Matrix is correct about the smilies ;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Let me ask ReneRitchie and KenWingJitsu something: Have you ever seen the Farmer Burns Catch-as-catch-can Wrestling series put out by Matt Furey?

Oh...you haven't !?!?!

So how do you know that I would have been better off with the
Mario Sperry tapes?

Denial makes me smile!

P.S. - KenWingJitsu: Other than the tapes...thanks for the endorsement!...You too, Rene!

I think I recall seeing Sperry fight on one of the UFC videos I have; and if memory serves...he was Okay...and I'm impressed with the fact that he has beaten at least one Gracie...in a jujitsu match...

But to compare his fighting skills with Farmer Burns' skills or Karl Gotch, to name but two...I really don't think so....Karl Gotch was known as the God Of Pro Wrestling in Japan in the late 1960's after leaving the pro wrestling circuit here in the States ...going to Japan...crushing Every Judo and Jiujitsu opponent he ever faced...the Japanese awarded him a black belt in Judo after ONE DAY...there is a story about his wife being so happy after he stopped going to the Judo dojo in Japan to start teaching the Japanese pro wrestling (catch)...because she would have to wash the blood off his gi every night after he came home...the blood of his opponents!

I respect judo..I respect jiu jitsu, both Japanese and Brazilian...and I use and teach some jiu jitsu moves...but quite frankly catch-as-catch-can has MORE ANSWERS and pieces to the puzzle of fighting, as I see it...for example: the jiu jitsu guard position is analogous to bong sao...a defensive transition move that you better change into something else very quickly(ie. - tan sao or larp sao)...otherwise you are in danger.

I would only use the guard to save my ass temporarily if need be and then immediately try to reverse my way out of it (and by the way, catch has a beautiful way to do this)...rather than try to hold someone in it, or pull him in whilr trying to somehow catch him in an arm bar or triangle choke...Let me put this another way...Karl Gotch refers to the guard as the "***** hold"...it can be easily taken advantage of by a combination of strikes and catch moves.

Yes, I know you said that Furey was once caught in a triangle choke and had to punch his way out...but that was before his catch was any good...Watch the Farmer Burns tapes and see what he learned from Gotch about busting out and punishing the man who tries the guard position...to use but just one example.

[Ultimatewingchun]

He called the guard the #hore hold...

Such a nasty man he was!

And for those of you who still take offense to the idea of mixing wing chun with a grappling art...the potential of marrying such an incredible in-fighting art like wing chun to grappling...which is just infighting by another means...is enormous!

You're like the man who was standing on a whale... fishing for minnows.

Wake up to what's right in front of your face...for God's sake!

[Ultimatewingchun]

It wasn't a UFC event. I have a tape of Sperry fighting another Brazilian named Ninja something-or-other at a Pride event from Japan held on April 28, 2002. Sperry lost a unanimous decision to Ninja, but put up a valiant effort. Also took into account the fact that Sperry was 35 years old at the time and Ninja was 21.

Like I said earlier - he was Okay...but that's about it.

Put him in an alley with Karl Gotch when they were both 29, and it would have been no contest.

GOTCH BY A NILE! (Is that a river in Egypt?)

...Or is it shorthand for annihilation!

[old jong]

I saw that fight...The determining factor was Sperry's crasy charging and wide open punching style.The other guy just had to punch inside to counter and almost knocked him out a few times.This taxed Sperry's energy level enough to give an edge to the younger guy.

I don't think a fighter like Sperry is to be considered too old at 35. His massive experience and knowledge in grappling could not be matched by a younger and considerabely less experimented guy.His mistake was in the striking departement Proof that all fights begin standing up.;)

[Ultimatewingchun]

Old Jong:

I didn't mean to suggest that Mario Sperry is just too old and should therefore get out of the fight game.

It's just that it was a long and grueling fight and he clearly ran out of gas long before Ninja did...I wasn't particularly impressed with the way either of them were flailing away with streetfighter-type haymaker punches.

Far be it from me to suggest that 35 is too old... I'm older than that myself!

[reneritchie]

Since it's not a grappling forum, I won't veer off completely in that direction. I wil say Furey claiming to learn from the ghost of Farmer Burns puts him under the credibility microscope with me. The big problem with catch compared to other grappling systems, however (especially bjj) is that they have not shown they can produce fighters. There are literally hundreds of BJJ blackbelts, and the usage of BJJ in NHB is systematic. (While some may argue that highschool, ncaa, and olympic wrestlers are "catch", this is obviously rediculous - especially since 99% don't know any "catches ;) )

Sperry in the Ninja fight shows what he can do even after being stupid and getting nailed and taken out of his game. Ninja is well known as a cardio machine, and is 10 some years younger. Sperry vs. Igor might be something worth seeing, as he took on one of PrideFC's greatest strikers and choked him out in the matter of seconds. More importantly, Sperry's team mate, Bustamante, is UFC Middleweight Champion (recently out boxed, out submitted, and even out wrestled Olympic silver wrestling medalist Matt Lindland), and their student Antonio Nogueira was until last week PrideFC HW Champion, who submitted the 300+ pound Bob Sapp even after a pile driver and a couple of wrestling power bombs ;) That's repetitive results.

To put it in a WCK context, you need to walk the walk and talk the talk. Sperry's tapes show exactly how he fights in NHB and you can watch his tapes and his fights and see how they match (Igor was classic). Furey's are like the "secret lost more super specialler branch". It's great talk (marketing at its best), but there's no evidence of the walk (Furey has not done well personally against BJJ despite his ghostly instruction).

It's not just about the source or the marketing or the speciallness. It's about the technical details, the methodology, the implementation, and the reproducability of *results*.

You can always argue personal preferance and opinion. Results are harder to argue.

[Ultimatewingchun]

It IS about technical details and methodology, which are two of the biggest points I was trying to make about the Farmer Burns tapes - which you obviously still haven't seen.

It's not about Furey's own personal abilities, personality, character, or even HIS wrestling/fighting skills....

At least 90% of what's on those tapes he will be the first to tell you come from Karl Gotch, who comes from the catch tradition (or lineage, if you will) of Farmer Burns.

Furey didn't invent the details and methodolgy; but rather, he is demonstrating them ...sometimes with obvious skill, sometimes with less than spectacular skill.

But the technigues, strategies, details, methodologies, etc. are EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD.

The fact that there aren't any catch wrestlers who haven't distinguished themselves in MMA yet...AND I STILL MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT SAKURABA'S GRAPPLING SUCCESSES ARE PRIMARILY DUE TO HIS CATCH TRAINING...the fact that as of yet catch is still relatively unexplored in MMA...doesn't mean anything in terms of judging the merits of the art itself...GIVE IT TIME...YOU'LL SEE!

[yuanfen]

Gotch is indeed one of the greats. Agree, it is not the relevance of Furey's personal abilities.

Gotch was younger than the great Gama of old India and later Pakistan who according to Robert Smith- may have been the
greatest grappler of all time. Gama was basically undefeated in his time.

Gotch and Gama never competed against each other but Gotch admired Gama and spoke highly of Gama's training regimen.
Gotch used the term "Hindu" for naming Gama's exercises- which are not always correctly done. There were both Hindu and Muslim greats but Gama was Muslim.

Gama was old school- interested in throwing and smashing people on the ground rather than turning people on the ground though he could do that well enough- but preferred the former.

Wrestling is a an important activity from Mongolia via Indo-Pak, Kazaks, Iran and Turkey. The Mongol influence is there though each area had their indigenous wrestling as well. The Mongols transformed Chinese shui chao as well.

On the bookish side some of you may want to look at Smith's essays and also a book bya different author titled "The Wrestlers Body" (U of California press).. I reviewed the latter for the JAMA some years back.

joy chaudhuri

[headstock]

Although not a martial art im reading an interesting book on body language. Noticing signs in other people and learning how to influence them without force before a fight is likely to occur could be a good way of suplementing a martial art. So far ive never been in an actual fight(touch wood) and I hope not to be, but if that should happen i hope my wing chun is up to scratch.

[KenWingJitsu]

I wil say Furey claiming to learn from the ghost of Farmer Burns puts him under the credibility microscope with me.
correct

The big problem with catch compared to other grappling systems, however (especially bjj) is that they have not shown they can produce fighters.
correct again

[kj]

Originally posted by crimsonking
Is everything in wing chun, or is wing chun in everything?

Yes. :cool:
- kj

[yuanfen]

Everything---in the beginning there was emptiness-then came
the fok out of nowhere- moving upwards like a bird on the wing into bong sao- then sinking down to an earthly beggar' tan with his palm out-asking quo vadis? Nothing was the same after that till the return to emptiness....past the sound of one hand clapping.

[anerlich]

Is everything in wing chun, or is wing chun in everything?

Only in my lineage ;)

Try telling that to one of the old time Choy Li Fut guys. I suggest only attempting it while you have him at gunpoint.

Re: Mario Sperry

He WON the first Australian UFC in Sydney, from a field including Elvis Sinosic and Chris Haseman. Submission by chin to the eye socket over Haseman IIRC (a tactic which Haseman also defeated Elvis with - the rules allowed it).

The quality of these events has improved exponentially since those days, which is not to disrespect the fighters mentioned.

Catch - it might be great, but you can't learn it in Oz (unless you buy Furey's tapes, I guess, which I have no plans to).

Most sensible highranking BJJ'ers here crosstrain in Greco or Freestyle Wrestling, and would almost certainly jump at the chance to pick up Sambo, Catch or anything else that came along. Those guys all crosstrain striking as well.

Sakuraba as a poster boy for catch probably has some validity, about the same as using Bruce Lee as a WC poster boy. Both moved on and expanded beyond the boundaries of these arts, as much as their "purist" followers might argue or wish it otherwise.

The sound of one hand clapping? Go to a mangrove swamp full of mosquitoes - you'll hear it soon enough.

[Ultimatewingchun]

If you're not happy with Matt Furey he's not the only game in town...Tony Cecchine...as I have researched recently...seems to be by all accounts way beyond Furey.

His website is www.catchwrestling.com

[captain]

there is an article/interview with matt furey in this months
copy of martial arts illustrated in the uk


www.martialartsltd.co.uk

[reneritchie]

Cecchine

Heard much better things about him than Furey, and would check out his tapes if I had the chance (wouldn't buy them blind, though).


Most sensible highranking BJJ'ers here crosstrain in Greco or Freestyle Wrestling

Same here. MTL, unlike with MA, is lucky to have 2 Olympic level wrestling coaches, as well as a Sambo school. Lots of MT seems to be included, and boxing.


Sakuraba as a poster boy for catch probably has some validity

He won a lot of his high profile matches with classic Judo/Jujitsu like Jujigatame and Ude Garame. As Judo is taught in school in Japan, it probably deserves as much credit as what he learned at Takada Dojo. His striking has also become a factor, especially those low kicks. I will give the Mogolian Chop to wrasslin, along with the mask and the hindu squat. 8P

[Marky]

I've been to a seminar put on by Tony Cecchine, he is awesome, in regard to both skill and personality. Never seen his videos though.

[yuanfen]

Cecchine's website looks interesting. So does the one shoet video that I saw.

BTW, somewhat irrelevant now- since he passed away- but I knew a great wrestling coach who also was a hooker...my friend
Joe Begala who coached at Kent State University for years.
He was great on self defense and wrote a standard book for navy fliers stranded behind the lines. It was full of very practical
catch, twist, throw, strangle, hit techniques. Some libraries may still have that book. He used to give self defense seminars including on the ground in the 60s.

But I am not sure that Cecchine's stuff or Joe Begala's stuff would help a small person or a woman against a big strong fellow.