The Pelvis [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

TjD

03-14-2003, 01:13 PM

my sifu once said "wing chun makes you a great lover" ... its all in the pelvis baby! :D

all pelvic jokes aside, i think a large amount of wing chun comes from the pelvis. pushing it forward while keeping the torso straight moves the entire upper body forward - in a very short amount of time. this can generate a lot of force and utilizes some of the most powerful muscles in the body (quads/glutes/calves).

if the pelvis is kept forward and the spine straight, it creates a direct link of bone structure from the ground to the shoulder. and this is exactly what the three hands of wing chun need to be effective.

if the stance is kept slightly low, pushing the pelvis forward can provide the forward momentum needed to take a step - as opposed to the normal falling forward type steps we take all the time when walking. since you dont have to wait for gravity, this lends itself towards a quicker and less telegraphed step - not to mention much more rooted as you are not falling foward, but rather pushing/pulling yourself forward. all the steps i know of (between the wooden dummy, 3 hand forms, pole, and what i know of the knives) can be powered by this mechanic - either pushing the pelvis forward, or retracting it backwards. the keeping of the pelvis forward to align the spine in SLT is that same energy - just in the forward position.

IRONMONK

03-14-2003, 01:14 PM

Thank you AndrewS for the good info.

regards,

Faze.

S.Teebas

03-14-2003, 10:27 PM

I dont see any need to push the hip forward, or down as some mentioned. If you relax it and let gravity do its thing then thats important IMHO.

Tensing it by any means, (ie pushing to achieve the tilt) can result in loss of movement; which due to lack of sensitivity to minute forces (that are only able to be detected when completely relaxed) means your reactions and ability to respond with footwork is always going to be 2 steps behind (no pun intended).

I agree wiht Jim that spine straight, and linking of upper and lower body are relevent factors that contribute to generation of force through body mass. As to my hip i try to relax it and allow it to freely move any direction once i FEEL that need to move.

KPM

03-15-2003, 05:06 AM

Good thread! How many of you are using the hip to generate power? I have seen lots of WCK people basically "lock in" the hips with the forward tilt and then never "unlock" in order to produce any power from the hips. I used to be one of them. :-) Now I have learned to "lock" and "unlock" the hips at will in order to produce an added "whipping" power in all my techniques. It has made a significant difference for me.

Keith

AndrewS

03-15-2003, 11:22 AM

No locking. The hip should be alive, loose, and mobile, analogous to the shoulder.

I think the mechanic you describe- using the pelvis as the handle of a whip- comes up more in Biu Tze. I think it can be dangerous if you don't have good control over the situation, and prefer SNT mechanics (which also use hip but work from higher up, IMHO).

Later,

Andrew

TjD

03-15-2003, 02:13 PM

locking the hip is no different than the tensing that goes on when your punch lands (and usually happens around the same time). its just happening lower down the chain of body structure, and also allows for more leg power.

IMHO, this is no different than SLT mechanics. there are no separate sets of mechanics in wing chun. everything in wing chun is a building process - what you have gets improved and refined.

AndrewS

03-15-2003, 05:22 PM

TJD,

you've made my point for me. My hip usage is very much like my 'tensing when the punch lands'.

*wanders off whistling innocently waiting for the Bay Area folks to get the joke*

Andrew

S.Teebas

03-15-2003, 09:10 PM

TjD says:

locking the hip is no different than the tensing that goes on when your punch lands (and usually happens around the same time). its just happening lower down the chain of body structure, and also allows for more leg power.

How does the tensing allow for more power? Isnt WC based on relaxation?

Phenix

03-16-2003, 12:41 AM

Pelvis, pelvis,....
IMHO
when one feel power often it has no power.
linking to the earth is good but doesn't link to the heaven there is no oxigen. are you going extreme? :D

S.Teebas

03-16-2003, 10:33 PM

when one feel power often it has no power.

Too true Hendrik, ironic that some people come to learn to feel powerfull through martial arts. Yet when you can generate power, your realise you just use it, no need to reassure you've got what you have before you utilize.
Somthing about trust in what you do instead of the mind set "ok i've tenced that muscle now i know i can use it!" ...why bother? Just use it! (of cource depends on how you generate force too)

Phenix

03-16-2003, 10:43 PM

If one stop breathing before generate power or tensing the pelvis before deliver or root to the gound. that has gone extreme.

What good is stoping breathing feeling having the explosive power when the fact is the body was induced into interup of oxigen and blood circulation.... one got injury.

what good is tensing and tucking the pelvis to line everything up to make the back straight.... while the fact is now pelvis has become the weaks link of the body since it "link" up the upper and lower body. The "hard" link will break first when a strong force inject into the system . Not to mention, the body now become a dead beam which connect to the ground but what if condition change and one needs to change direction....IMHO.

03-17-2003, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by S.Teebas
I dont see any need to push the hip forward, or down as some mentioned. If you relax it and let gravity do its thing then thats important IMHO.

Does this mean no "ting yu" for your pelvic/hip/spinal alignment? Or is it more an exception to the active "push" descriptor?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

John Weiland

03-17-2003, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by kj

Does this mean no "ting yu" for your pelvic/hip/spinal alignment? Or is it more an exception to the active "push" descriptor?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Hi KJ,

There's no tension in the pelvis as I understand ting yu. Some of the previous descriptions sound as if they are describing something else that is not my understanding of proper Wing Chun structure.

I think Phenix is correct.

Regards,

03-17-2003, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by John Weiland
There's no tension in the pelvis as I understand ting yu. Some of the previous descriptions sound as if they are describing something else that is not my understanding of proper Wing

Thanks, John. From S. Teebas' post, I was unclear if they utilize ting yu or not, and hope to better understand.

Regards,
- kj

tparkerkfo

03-17-2003, 11:08 PM

HI all,

So some tuck the hip more than others. What effect does this have on your structure as you go through the range?

I noted a couple things while playing around with the hip. When I excessivly stick out the hip, or butt, it is easy to feal the effect on the structure. It is weak and disconnected. As it lines up, the body seems to get stronger. If I exagerate it forward, I notice the body says back a bit, but that the body has a lot of spring in it, atleast if the knees are clamped in. The body seems ready to do something. If I relax it a bit so it is slightly forward, I think it is solid but maybe not as strong. What do other people sense from moving the hip around and how does it affect them?

Did I read Phenix correctly, are you saying not to tuck it up but to keep it more nutrual untill you have a need to tuck it?

Tom
________
Bbw busty (http://www.****tube.com/categories/206/busty/videos/1)

TjD

03-18-2003, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by S.Teebas
TjD says:

How does the tensing allow for more power? Isnt WC based on relaxation?

its definately based on relaxation, but how well can you punch without tensing some muscles? nothing will move - unless your chi powers are much greater than mine :D

pushing the hip forward moves the upper body forward - i dont see any difference between this and using shoulder muscles to move the arm forward to punch.

S.Teebas

03-18-2003, 12:22 AM

Kj says:

Does this mean no "ting yu" for your pelvic/hip/spinal alignment? Or is it more an exception to the active "push" descriptor?

Ting yu -- Back straight, pelvis rolled under slightly so that each vertebrae is stacked one on top of the other. The spine is completely aligned. The upper body should not be leaning back nor is the head tilted forward. Maintaining the head in the right position and proper execution of ting yu is a prerequisite for dung tao

Hi KJ,

I found this description on one page your group has written and can say i agree. I guess the confusion comes about from the tension issue as others have also mentioned. Sometimes i see people forcing the hips forward, rather than aligning and letting the strucure utilize gravity which is why i mentioned it.

As i understand it, tension should be avoided at all costs, but this doesnt mean muscle is not used, just never forced.

A large part of keeping the body free from tension and linked is the use of Tai Gong. This is a large emphasis on the maintinance of structure from my current understanding.

S.Teebas

03-18-2003, 12:53 AM

TJD Says:

...but how well can you punch without tensing some muscles?

Don’t know, how well can force be received in a relaxed state compared to a tense one? One thing I know for sure is tense muscle absorbs force more than relaxed muscles do. So wouldn't a tense muscle in you arm hamper the transmission of force through your structure?

...pushing the hip forward moves the upper body forward - I don’t see any difference between this and using shoulder muscles to move the arm forward to punch.

I’m pretty meticulous when it comes to details; well I try to be due my understanding of WC being a system that’s fundamental on them. So words like 'push' for me mean something totally different than rotate, or reposition. Push indicated to me forced, which indicates structural deficiency due to above listed reasons. Maybe I'm just being pedantic.

Phenix

03-18-2003, 02:16 AM

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
HI all,

Did I read Phenix correctly, are you saying not to tuck it up but to keep it more nutrual untill you have a need to tuck it?

Tom

Tom,

all of these has to do with breathing, body linking... anything forcefull is not nature.

there are two path. one is relax and inhale.. one is connect the ground and exhale. ....
trying to keep only one of this as correct is not nature. IMHO

Hendrik

03-18-2003, 04:26 AM

Originally posted by S.Teebas
I found this description on one page your group has written and can say i agree. I guess the confusion comes about from the tension issue as others have also mentioned. Sometimes i see people forcing the hips forward, rather than aligning and letting the strucure utilize gravity which is why i mentioned it.

Hi S. That is exactly the clarification I was looking for.

I am not familiar with the term "tai gong" in this context - can you explain?

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

P.S. I found and really enjoyed this (http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/article11.htm). This website and essay are wonderful.

03-18-2003, 04:42 AM

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Maybe I'm just being pedantic.

No. There is nothing trivial about that kind of specificity and detail.
- kj

S.Teebas

03-19-2003, 12:28 AM

am not familiar with the term "tai gong" in this context - can you explain?

Tai gong is the internal contraction starting at the anus. I know not many WC lineages do this. It helps link, relax and co-ordinate the body. It becomes less physical over time, and more mental once the feeling is familiar/ refined.

Thanks for the compliment on the schools web page, maybe its time I contribute something! :p

03-19-2003, 03:38 AM

Aha, I know the concept, but had not heard the term before. Thanks, S.

And yes, you should write something. :)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

Phenix

03-19-2003, 04:24 AM

Originally posted by S.Teebas

Tai gong is the internal contraction starting at the anus.

This can cause blood presure to get high or the problem of fever.... any forcefull practice is no good.

yuanfen

03-19-2003, 07:58 AM

Correct-No contracting needed-except in the bathroom
and for some very specific kundalini-for which you have to know what you are doing and is not relevant to basic wing chun development.

TjD

03-19-2003, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Tai gong is the internal contraction starting at the anus. I know not many WC lineages do this. It helps link, relax and co-ordinate the body. It becomes less physical over time, and more mental once the feeling is familiar/ refined.

how does contracting the anus help link relax and coordinate the body? i don't really see the correlation. does it modify bone structure in any way?

or is it more just for qigong like health benefits?

Phenix

03-19-2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by TjD

how does contracting the anus help link relax and coordinate the body? i don't really see the correlation. does it modify bone structure in any way?

or is it more just for qigong like health benefits?

in the begining of practiced for elementry
it is after one relax and link into one pice, then while exhale. the anus will lifted..... not lifting and cause relax but relax and will cause lifting action.

forcing to lift certainly will feel the body seem to be unite in to one but that cause un nature or stop breathing which defy the purpose....

reneritchie

03-19-2003, 11:27 AM

It's sort of a broken-telephone transmission of Hei (Qi) theory designed to close the circut and connect the body much like touching the tongue to the roof of the mouth.

One of the few structural details most sifu won't want to actually check ;)

S.Teebas

03-19-2003, 03:33 PM

Phenix says:

This can cause blood presure to get high or the problem of fever.... any forcefull practice is no good.

Agreed that forcing it is wrong, its quite specific. Not sure that doing it correctly is bad, because SiGung TST advocates it and he seems to be ok after 50 or so years of it.

TjD says:

how does contracting the anus help link relax and coordinate the body? I don't really see the correlation. does it modify bone structure in any way?

I’m not an expert on it, but what I think it does is bring awareness to the lower half of the body (also helps get the force received to the floor). This allows the body to relax because it feels supported to a greater extent. Relaxation brings more freedom of movement to the joints and opens up the centre (which tai gong also does when correctly linked up to the top of the head). ...don’t take my word for it, I'm sill trying to understand it exactly.

Yuanfen says:

Correct-No contracting needed-except in the bathroom
and for some very specific kundalini-for which you have to know what you are doing and is not relevant to basic wing chun development.

Yuanfen, can you elaborate on the kundalini thoughts on this subject? When you say basic WC development, are you inferring it comes into play later on?

reneritchie

03-19-2003, 03:44 PM

Agreed that forcing it is wrong, its quite specific. Not sure that doing it correctly is bad, because SiGung TST advocates it and he seems to be ok after 50 or so years of it.

My sigung advocated it as well, but I think its the method of how to do it that's being cautioned, not Tai Gong itself.

KenWingJitsu

03-19-2003, 04:26 PM

All this talk is giving me anal itch.

yuanfen

03-19-2003, 07:10 PM

S. Teebas-(since you asked-I reply in honest good faith) :serious discussion of topics can easily get trivialized
on net forums- witness one of the most recent wisecracking posts on this very thread.

You are in the TST line and I defer to him on how you do it or should.

There is a time and place for things and the development of the detail.

generally- for relative beginners I always suggest doing things
"naturally" with minimal tension and not locking anything.
Good alignments including gravitational alignment take time in development. Not doing slt properly and for some time can dvelop a poor structure and result in being easily thrown or pulled or swept.

Rgarding the kundalini framework- my kundalini teacher is 93
years old and remains quite flexible in Chennai, India. Also. the kundalini principles
are present in esoteric buddhism and as Hendrik pointed out in a different thread Buddhists and Daoists often take different name calling paths to some of the same principles. I dont always know the Chinese terms that Hendrik uses but essential buddhist principles are universal not Chinese or Indian despite politics and nationalism.

I try to avoid useless arguing with "materialists" about different models of "energy". There are many different meanings of "chi" but relevant to martial activity- the energy connection is an important one. Chinese use the term chi- kundalini folks- prana and more directly "shakti"- a female principle- whereas "shakta"
is a male principle and involves male -muscle strength. Most western physical culture systems develop the yangish-shakta more. Wing chun involves balance and therefore the development of the yinnish-shakti-
the female principle is important more so than in many other CMA or MA. Once there is proper enrichment and storage of prana in manipura( approximately-dan tien)- then other techniques for sending the shakti can be done. I dont know whther TST thinks like that- but I am not in his line- and I am quite comfortable with my understanding. The sending of shakti to the right place at the right time can help with appropriate functions including minimizing injury. Too quickly raising the shakti and tensing you know what
can affect blood pressure- its testable- just use a blood pressure kit and do your tensing and you will see.
Raising shakti straight to the top of the head too early can result
in even greater dangers- to mental health even.... in kundalini analysis.

You mention TST doing the tensing for 50 yaers- if memory serves-
no malice intended on my part.....

I understand that TST has had bouts of high BP- but causality
is a problematic subject.
I dont know whether I am being clear enough ina net post- it isnt easy- as our threads including the trolling and the anonymities
often show. Joy chaudhuri ((Gotta go and teach wing chun)

S.Teebas

03-19-2003, 11:59 PM

Too quickly raising the shakti and tensing you know what can affect blood pressure- its testable- just use a blood pressure kit and do your tensing and you will see.

Ive heard tensing the sphincter muscle can do this. Im not sure it's the same thing as what ive been told (Tai Gong), although at first many people start by doing this then refine it over time to doing what is more subtle/correct.

serious discussion of topics can easily get trivialized on net forums- witness one of the most recent wisecracking posts
on this very thread.

It takes some maturity to discuss certain subjects, i was waiting for the the jokes.

I cant speak for Sigung TST at all, only what i understand that was handed down from him. As for the high blood pressure related to Tai Gong; Rene you mentioned:

Origionally posted by reneritchie:
My sigung advocated it as well, but I think its the method of how to do it that's being cautioned, not Tai Gong itself
Any thing noticable about high blood pressure with your sigung?

What i do know is theres a noticable difference when doing, and when not doing it. In anycase, thanks for sharing Yuanfen.

yylee

03-20-2003, 01:05 AM

I don't remember hearing about TST's high blood pressure.

Tai Gong is just a slight contraction of the anus area. We are taught to Tai Gong with an "intend" and not forcing it to tense up. As Teebas says don't take my word for it, I'm sill trying to understand it exactly :)

However I do remember my Sifu telling me Tai Gong's purpose is to prevent Chi leaks, of course I am not referring to the intestine Chi.

yuanfen

03-20-2003, 07:06 AM

Verbal description can corrupt representation. When you sink right, let the pelvis tilit naturally, straighten the back foundation, sink the energy into the dan tien naturally, the closing and preservation of energy will take care of itself . No "tensing" or asleep at the wheel relaxation..The middle way- moderation. IMO. Anyway, thats the way I do it and
have developed through it since 1976 and it has served me well.
If it varies from what TST sez and you are in his line- do it your way- I have no problems with that.

In any case developing the ygkym over time is the key to good wing chun. But wing chun is not the only mountain- but it is mine.
For good strong kung fu- strong stances are inescapable.

KPM

03-23-2003, 09:01 AM

Here's another question that fits with this thread. How many of you use the waist/pelvis when performing your Siu Lim/Nim Tao form? Do you stand "stock still" and only allow the arms to move, or do you use the waist to generate power?

Keith

Phenix

03-23-2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by KPM
Here's another question that fits with this thread. How many of you use the waist/pelvis when performing your Siu Lim/Nim Tao form? Do you stand "stock still" and only allow the arms to move, or do you use the waist to generate power?

Keith

If one doesn't force one to be in such and such position. even moving a tiny finger the whole body is moving. that is nature.

Actually, the concept of the Whole or complete stucture is a concept of Internal art " using the tranquil to subdue the action." the writing about this can trace to Ming dynasty and above. this is a very different concept to the shao Lin way....

So, IMHO, if one belive about the SLT has to use whole to generate power. this already is not shao lin.

A horse stance with a very solid root doesn't means it has a "whole" power. thus, hung gar which is having great strong horse stance is not TaiJi or emei 12 zhuang system.

Rolling_Hand

03-23-2003, 09:51 PM

Hendrik sez:

So, IMHO, if one belive about the SLT has to use whole to generate power. this already is not shao lin.

---------------------------------------------------------

Huh...?!?!

Does it make sense to bet on an outsider of Shaolin like Hendrik?

You only see what your eyes want to see

How can Shaolin be what you want it to be?

Now there's no point in placing the blame

You're frozen....hahaha

desertwingchun2

03-23-2003, 10:42 PM

Rolling_Hand the ice man!

Hendrick has pretty words but, who is he to say what is and what isn't?

Square pegs don't fit round holes. But tell that to someone who spent a quarter century trying.

-David

yuanfen

03-23-2003, 11:54 PM

Phenix's English may not be the best.
I find some of his comments on an Emei connection intriguing
but not yet clear enough.
But, I think that his understanding of Buddhist literatureand perspective as good as any on tjis list- among those who post.
Our troll in residence has some predictable knee jerk reactions whenever some key names come up- but his comments are best unanswered and ignored IMO..

anerlich

03-24-2003, 12:28 AM

The "anal lock" is a fundamental of Astanga Yoga breathing. Every system of Qigong I've come across recommended joining the GV and CV in this manner. Not that you have to be able to crack nuts with it (and who would want them afterwards in any case?)

It is also advocated by a number of strength gurus, including Pavel Tsatsouline, to insure against hernia or intestinal damage during heavy lifting. Heavy lifting might be "forceful" and "wrong" in the eyes of some. but if you have to do it for work, household maintenance or whatever, you might as well do it right. I'll risk high blood pressure (mine is excellent for my 48 years, thank you) over a hernia any day.

The body is designed to perform as a unit. The pelvis and spine can and should move during SLT IMO.

Actually, the concept of the Whole or complete stucture is a concept of Internal art " using the tranquil to subdue the action." the writing about this can trace to Ming dynasty and above. this is a very different concept to the shao Lin way....

One of my teachers has practiced Wing Chun and Northern Shaolin since 1969. He would disagree about your statements about Shaolin not using the complete structure. Wing Chun also uses the complete structure.

A horse stance with a very solid root doesn't means it has a "whole" power. thus, hung gar which is having great strong horse stance is not TaiJi or emei 12 zhuang system.

Your premises do not logically lead to your conclusion. There is liitle relaitionship with these daring leaps of logic, or lack thereof, and proper research and analysis IMO. Not that that doesn't happen with anyone else, but if you're trying to pass yourself off as a scholar you need to lift your game big time.

Phenix

03-24-2003, 12:41 AM

Hi Joy,

there are writing about the characteristics of shao lin in taiji's classic. so it is not a top secret or anything. The taiji people can tell alots.

The problem of the his-story about WCK, IMHO it is just lots people needs to read more about the chinse MA classic.

When the final curtain is lift. it will be the TaiJi or other internal art people who one has to face.....

It is always funny that people can write in article in magazine about original... and be accepted.

but can't even take my opion in a discussion forum without attacking me personally. IMHO, why take me so serious? I can be right or wrong. but I show evidents.. It will be nice that other also show thier research evidents instead of side track the issues.

IMHO,
When the ancestor left us " lai lao hui song...." (coming recieve...) kuit that had cast the faith of WCK.

..... that is different to the shao lin's " san caan Tang nor"... (side step and rush out...) kuit. IMHO

Phenix

03-24-2003, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by anerlich
T

One of my teachers has practiced Wing Chun and Northern Shaolin since 1969. He would disagree about your statements about Shaolin not using the complete structure. Wing Chun also uses the complete structure...

if we read the epitap of Wang Zen-Nan on the description of Internal art one can find out lots of things... My opinion is based on the classic s. But, it is upto everyone's opinion. It is a free will discussion forum. I might be wrong. But still i want to point out. there are lots and lots of chinese ma clasic can be read.... and see how those ancient people says?

On the other hand,
There is a different between hard bow structure which pressure qi to the tan dien and the internal art where sink qi to tan dien. things can look a like outside but they are different... according to the clasical writing..

My point in this discussion is just to point out. the pelvis .... and the structure are not the same for the hard bow and internal whole.. certainly WCK using"complete" structure. Shao Lin using 'complete" structure.

but what kind of "complete" structure? hard bow? interal whole? that is the question. IMHO

anerlich

03-24-2003, 05:48 PM

if we read the epitap of Wang Zen-Nan on the description of Internal art one can find out lots of things

No doubt, but as attested by some of your statements above, reading it won't help anybody avoid making a poorly constructed argument.

There is a different between hard bow structure which pressure qi to the tan dien and the internal art where sink qi to tan dien. things can look a like outside but they are different... according to the clasical writing..

You seem to be equating "hard bow" (whatever you mean by that) with the entirity of Shaolin Kung Fu, which is not the case, at least not according to my teacher, who is certainly in a position to judge, more so I think than you, Hendrik.

By making the false equivalence

hard bow=shaolin

You are in effect conducting a straw man argument. This cannot be good scholarship.

things can look a like outside but they are different... according to the clasical writing..

And things can look superficially different but be essentially the same. That may not be classical, but it's just as correct.

Maybe the classical authors weren't great logicians, either. Because something is "classical" doesn't automatically imply it is relevant or correct.

Hsanto

03-24-2003, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by anerlich

......You seem to be equating "hard bow" (whatever you mean by that) with the entirity of Shaolin Kung Fu, which is not the case, at least not according to my teacher, who is certainly in a position to judge, more so I think than you, Hendrik........

Maybe the classical authors weren't great logicians, either. Because something is "classical" doesn't automatically imply it is relevant or correct.

You can certainly be right,
and certainly respected to make your arguement.

However, disregard of how your or mine arguement.

The influence of Wang Zen-Nan epitab on Nei Jia and Wai Jia continous to today. Even this particular WCK forum is under Wai Jia. That is a fact not logic. and fact doesn't always follow logic.

IMHO, and the quesition remain, what is SLT's structure. is it soft or hard bow? soft or hard influence the way one handle the pelvis. I belive it is soft. IMHO. so others can belive differently.

Certainly people can choose to do thier YJKYM similar to the Iron Wire of Hung Ga. That is perfectly ok.
but then, IMHO, how is Hung Ga's YJKYM fit with "lay lau Hui Song....?" that is the question one has to answer for oneself.

I just post my case. the way i see it, IMHO, and it will be great to have others to post thier case. it is about discussing different possibilites isn't it? I can be right or wrong. but technical discussion always benifit everyone. IMHO.

anerlich

03-25-2003, 03:56 AM

Replying to Phenix/HSanto or whichever personality has the ascendancy today:

The influence of Wang Zen-Nan epitab on Nei Jia and Wai Jia continous to today. Even this particular WCK forum is under Wai Jia. That is a fact not logic. and fact doesn't always follow logic.

The above paragraph certainly supports its own conclusion, viz, not following logic.

I'm all for technical discussion. However, I do not feel unsubstantiated conclusions based on poor logic and premises skewed to agree with their proponents' desired outcomes have anything to do with that.

I do not wish to make this sound like a personal attack, though it probably comes out that way. It just annoys me when appeals to authority (the "classics"), straw man arguments and unfounded conclusions are presented as something profound or scholarly.

yuanfen

03-25-2003, 03:26 PM

The influence of Wang Zen-Nan epitab on Nei Jia and Wai Jia continous to today. Even this particular WCK forum is under Wai Jia. That is a fact not logic. and fact doesn't always follow logic.
(Hendrik)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Anerlich)
The above paragraph certainly supports its own conclusion, viz, not following logic.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really think its more pf a language problem.
I am unfamiliar with the "Wang Zen -nan" atleast under that name. Hendrik may be referring to the really muddled usage of
nei jia and wajia.... that old bugaboo of nei=internal and wai=
external. Lots of disputes over the years in the usage of those terms. Dialectically you can read them as north/ south,
external...more muscle usage. internal less muscle usage,
Foreign versus Chinese, Buddhist versus Taoist. Northerners only abouta 100 years ago defined the agenda and called taiji, baqua
and hsing I as internal- neijia--- the rest outside of the fold.
KFO has decided to put wc under wajia- avoids conflict for evryone except wc folks possibly. Hendrik's thesis has been failry self consistent(right or wrong) that good wc involves little muscle,
the importance of Yi ...things that some will say are part of an internal paradigm......
but I gave up many battles over empty labels and rectification of names.

PS An irony is that an important part of the Chinese "internal art" of Hsing Yi was developed bya handcuffed and shackled Moslem
in a prison cell.!!

Rolling_Hand

03-25-2003, 07:40 PM

--quote:A horse stance with a very solid root doesn't means it has a "whole" power. thus, hung gar which is having great strong horse stance is not TaiJi or emei 12 zhuang system.--Hendrik

--Your premises do not logically lead to your conclusion. There is liitle relaitionship with these daring leaps of logic, or lack thereof, and proper research and analysis IMO. Not that that doesn't happen with anyone else, but if you're trying to pass yourself off as a scholar you need to lift your game big time.--Anerlick

----------------------------------------------------

For a long time it had seemed to me that the real WCK was about

to begin-the Shaolin Wing Chun. But there was always some

obstacle in the way, something to be got through first, some

unfinished business, time still to be served....

Rolling_Hand

03-25-2003, 07:52 PM

Hendrik wrote:

IMHO, and the quesition remain, what is SLT's structure. is it soft or hard bow? soft or hard influence the way one handle the pelvis. I belive it is soft. IMHO. so others can belive differently.

------------------------------------------------------

What is SLT's structure?

SLT?

What about Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in your lineage?

Miles Teg

03-25-2003, 10:39 PM

I may be wrong here but as I understand it Chu SHong Tin doesn't have a blood PRESSURE problem, but some sort of problem with producing red blood cells (a platilate problem or something like that). I dont really know much about what that means but thats what Ive been told. From what I gather it is rather serious and he hasn't been able to participate in training much.

However considering his age I dont think it would be terribly unusual to have high blood pressure would it? Or is it more common to have low blood pressure when you are old? - I guess I'll find out in due time.

yuanfen

03-26-2003, 06:10 AM

Miles- thanks for the note on CST. He is a wing chun treasure.
I could be wrong but I think that there was a post somewhere on the net that for a while he had an eye problem involving capillary leakage. No worries.

yuanfen

03-26-2003, 03:57 PM

wujidude- thanks for the details.

Phenix

03-26-2003, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand

For a long time it had seemed to me that the real WCK was about

to begin-the Shaolin Wing Chun. But there was always some

obstacle in the way, something to be got through first, some

unfinished business, time still to be served....

I pray that your dream to come true.

However, In my humble humble opinion, you need to present a detail evidents... on DNA, legacy.... intead of using nothing to beat something..... Until then... it is just another story without based.

I hope that you are right and your dream come true. :cool:

Jim Roselando

03-27-2003, 08:51 AM

Hello,

It fun to see how this topic I started is still running and now taking on a Shaolin debate.

Some people will like to believe the "Shaolin" WC theory and some may not. Why not discuss some structural evidence as to how and why those feel it is or isnt?

I tend to believe that WC doenst have as many similarities to the so-called Shaolin arts (in body structure/form pattern) as it would have to a Zhan Zhuang combo.

The South Mantis I practiced was more of a "Hard Bow" as Hendrik put it. They had practice with holding the breath and pressing the ribs down (dip gwat gong) and openning the ribs. They had a more arched slightly forward lean to the body which was more similar to Dragon, Whitebrow, White Crane etc.. WC does not lean forward or backward. It stands neutral and doesnt force the breath with pumping the Dip Gwat Gong. While there may be similarity with the hands that is not enough to say its Shaolin. Which so-called Shaolin art (Mantis,Dragon,Whitebrow,White Crane) uses the Loi Lau Hoi Sung principle and has it written in their Kuit?

Hey Rolling Hand,

Hendrik's SLT has the CK/BJ built in it. Its one long form.

Hey Wuji!

Is Gou Yun Shen the same Gou as Wang Xiang Zhai's uncle/teacher? The guy in the famous picture cracking all the bricks!

Regards,

Jim Roselando

03-27-2003, 09:49 AM

Hello

A few more thoughts anout Shaolin etc..!

The so-called Shaolin I did contracted the muscles during punching and other methods. Wing Chun does not contract the muscles.

The so-called Shaolin uses the heal to toe alignment and cat types stance for flanking. They never shift. Wing Chun does not make use of this foot alignment and has shifting as part of its footwork.

The so-called Shaolin make use of a Doy Jong type strength sets and other isometric (or resistance training) two man training for power development where as WC would never do this.

The so-called Shaolin uses the cross patterns and three steps for the forms sequence where as WC starts off with non-moving and left and right moving.

The so-called Shaolin has the 3,18,108 numerology for their forms where as WC does not use numerology for forms titles.

If they were all from the same temple, and most other so-called Shaolin make use of these characteristic, then why wouldnt WCK?

Just my thoughts!

Regards,

Jim Roselando

03-27-2003, 12:28 PM

Hello,

These are som foto's of the so-called Shaolin Mantis, White Crane and Dragon!

How similar is it to WC?

Check the next three messages! I messed up with the attachments! Ooops

Regards,

Jim Roselando

03-27-2003, 12:30 PM

Mantis

Jim Roselando

03-27-2003, 12:32 PM

White Crane

Jim Roselando

03-27-2003, 12:33 PM

Dragon

Jim Roselando

03-27-2003, 12:35 PM

Now look at WCK

TjD

03-27-2003, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Now look at WCK

i wish the picture went low enough to see their feet. i also hope the guy on the right is the one showing wing chun - his structure appears much better :D

Jim Roselando

03-27-2003, 01:35 PM

Hello,

The guy on the right is Master Fung Keung. The guy on the left is a newbie pupil who has not found his center yet. Notice the leaning back! Thats not the proper structure.

Regards,

TjD

03-27-2003, 04:03 PM

from the pictures above, i do see some similarities between the lowerbody structure of white crane and WC - however its hard to tell given the lack of any background to really tell the placement of his feet.

i dont think the theory of WC being a blend of snake and crane to be too far off - especially from what i've heard about their different hands. however im very far from even knowing much about either of them.

however, hendriks theory about emei is quite interesting as well.
who knows, mabye a blend of all three? :D ancient days MMA :D :D :D

Rolling_Hand

03-27-2003, 04:09 PM

Hendrik wrote:

I pray that your dream to come true.

However, In my humble humble opinion, you need to present a detail evidents... on DNA, legacy.... intead of using nothing to beat something..... Until then... it is just another story without based.

I hope that you are right and your dream come true.

----------------------------------------------------------

Like a monkey in the forest

You jump from tree to tree,

Never finding the fruit.

From Emie to your 12 Zheung

Never finding Chum Kiu and Biu Jee in your lineage.

Blessed is the understanding among those who follow it

From Shaolin to WCK

From Wong Wah-Bo to Ip Man

If we want to know about WCK,

We have to make a personal journey

WE can't just simply theorize

Or speculate about our destination-SLT, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee.

Rolling_Hand

03-27-2003, 04:18 PM

Jim wrote:

Hey Rolling Hand,

Hendrik's SLT has the CK/BJ built in it. Its one long form.

-------------------------------------------------------

Hey Jim,

The brain is as strong as its weakest think.

Savi

03-27-2003, 05:07 PM

I have only read this last page of this thread (please bare with me), and I would like to share some information from HFY and the branch of Yip Man WC/VT I come from. I would just like to preface there is no ill intention regarding this post, cool?

From the branch of Wing Chun stemming from Yip Man that I am familiar with , we do not make use of any traditional Shaolin stances such as the Deep Bow Stance, or a Cat Stance, or a Crane Stance, or a Slide Stance, or a Low Cross Stance. Aside from the Low Horse when training the Gwan and a Tall Cross Stance in the Muk Yan Jong (the form I am familiar with has one) and a Tall Bow Stance which some might reference as a Forward Stance, there appears to be no other stances resembling Shaolin footwork in the version of WC I am familiar with.

To me, hand motions leave too much speculation (like the Fuk Sau for example, where did it come from - kind of questions)...

However, in the HFY Wing Chun which I am also familiar with up to the beginning of the Chum Kiu form, *from what I have learned thusfar*, there is a Cat Stance, Cross Stance, similarities of MOTION involving the Crane Stance. HFY does not make use of any combat stance involving 'parallel feet' or the step-sliding of feet. One thing I do notice is that is no bracing in HFY either. HFY footwork actually seems more related to the Shaolin trait (where their forms are dependant upon many different types of footwork as anyone can see in their forms), but are not acrobatic in nature or application.

WRT to the hands there are more hooking motions, finger thrusting, and is heavily-laced with grappling and arm and leg/foot breaks, IF we are to compare it to the YMVTK I am familiar with.

HFY also shares some concepts that stem directly from Chan Buddhism, such as the Saam Mo Kiu (3 connecting bridges) which is about 3 stages of awareness/development. This philosophy actually permeates the HFY system itself. I have heard that there could be a reference to it, or something similar, from Indian (India) Scripture as well, but I am NOT certain of it nor do I know what that reference is yet... HFY operates on something similar to Chi Sim Weng Chun's 'Heaven, Man, Earth' concept called in the HFYWCK Saam Dim Yat Sin, which is multi-layered in philosophy, health, and physical application (combat).

And I know a name is just a name to some people, but in HFY their name tells you exactly who they are and has deep meanings behind it. One meaning in HFY's name illustrates its ties to the Shaolin temple with the word "FA" meaning flower. The flower is symbolic for HFY's roots within the Shaolin temple, but this flower has distinctly 6 petals to represent the 6 senses from Buddhism; the 5 'basic' senses and the "Third Eye."

These are just some parallels I have noticed regarding a Shaolin connection. If I have offended anyone with this post please believe me it was not intended. I'm sharing in good faith here!

-Savi.

yuanfen

03-27-2003, 06:59 PM

Rene-True- like the Indian story of nine blind men describing the elephant (the trunk, the tail, the feet etc)- there is the trap of easy inferences made between a
posture, a pose or a motion for comparing arts.

Jim- thanks for the pics- its real contribution to the thread.

tjd- yes I also noticed some passing similarities between the crane shot and wck.

savi- the triad of 3 victories indeed has its roots in Indian philosophy. However, I remain skeptical- without bad intentions- of your art having an exclusive and unbroken link to Shaolin or Chan. Chinese culture is often quite pragmatic and lots oc activities and arts can pragmatically weave different tempos and ideas into it. Taoists have borrowed from Chan- so did neo Confucianists. And with religious ups and downs--all kinds of temples have been set afire in China at different times. However, I have no problems with a group's own self perception of their links.

PS Rene - Sambo's interest in leg breaking is understandable
to a degree
though not always dogmatically applicable or complete as strategy.. India's "Mahabharata" is one of the world's first epic
poems and is full of battles and strategies.Rather than the notions of the total war of today- the early conflicts had individual confrontations besides group formations. Bhim one of the heores and good guys was a master with the war club(gada). He engaged his enemy( a fighting cousin) who was alsoa master of the club. In the duel things were even for a long time when they were aiming at the head and the hands and the midsection
and blocking and deflecting.
Hitting below the belt was ethically prohibited in the rules of such duels.Neverthe less Bhim's advisor(Krishna) pointed at the opponents thighs and Bhim with two swings broke the thighs of his opponent-the fight was over and the opponent bled to death.
I can tell you some more contemporary anecdotes form real fights
on attacks on the legs- but off the soapbox. Like Jim R- often sez- I have to run. Teach wing chun shortly, JC

Savi

03-27-2003, 08:00 PM

Originally posted by yuanfen
savi- the triad of 3 victories indeed has its roots in Indian philosophy. However, I remain skeptical- without bad intentions- of your art having an exclusive and unbroken link to Shaolin or Chan. JC
Sifu Chaudhuri,
I am not familiar with the Triad of the 3 Victories. I have not done any scholarly or field research myself. As of right now I leave that to the VTM staff which are the leading source and pioneers for my family. Little by little I will tend to do a google search every now and then, but I am in no position to speak for them. Perhaps in the future I will be able to join the research team.

Are you familiar with any similarities or resemblance between the '3 stages of awareness' to anything in Indian/Hindu/Buddhist philosophy?

-Savi.

Jim Roselando

03-27-2003, 08:18 PM

Hello Rolling Hand,

You asked for DNA type evidence and I gave you structural info/comparison, numerology info/comparison, form pattern info/comparison, isometric energy/soft jing info/comparison, contraction of muscle info/comparison, breathing info/comparison, etc etc etc.... Then you come back with the same comments towards Hendrik about presenting DNA evidence versus beating something until. Who's beating the dead horse now without evidence other than the common story? You also continue to comment about his missing Chum Kiu/Biu Jee when you were told it was one long form versus three. Perhaps you would like to state your reasons (or more important "DNA/evidence research") for your beliefs other than from Shaolin to WC and from Wong Wah Bo to Ip Man? Also, please debate my evidence/dna links. That way the discussion can grow versus being held up.

I am going on vacation and look forward to reading this when I get back next week!

Hey Joy!

Glad you liked the photo's. I thought they would be important to check out for this kind of debate. They indeed show links/dna between arts.

Regards,

Phenix

03-27-2003, 10:36 PM

Hi Jim,

Since you post some pictures.... Ha ha ha ha for fun. I post some also.

This set practicing the technics in the equal shoulder stance.. a small sample see next post on the continous....

What do you think this is?
Any body? Guess?

the name start with Small.... or Siu but not Siu Lien Tau. LOL:D

Phenix

03-27-2003, 10:51 PM

Hi Jim,

some more..

Enjoy........ There are too many co incidents ......

The approach, The name, the hand techincs, kuen kuits.....

Fuse with some white crane from Fujian... what will it become? .....:D

Some would like to belive SLT is from Shao Lin, that is fine, it is a free world. It would be interesting to see how TaiZu's ----San Chaan Tong Nor ---- type of art link to be come the original or the oldest of WCK as some have claim.

Rene,

I just got a documentary book release by the Taiwan Hung Mun ....
You know, start from 1797 to 1820. There are massive activity of Tien Tie Hui in the area : Fujian, Canton, and Kwan Xi, and Sze Xuan.... majority are fujian people .... I guess they move around carrying SARS (joking) or White Crane... but Miu Shun doesn't like thier San Chin Stance, so He pull back the fron leg to make it a different stance.,,, LOL :D

They have gone a long way . LOL.....:D:D

Phenix

03-27-2003, 11:46 PM

Hi Jim,

Ok. If I am still wrong. Which is acceptable..... and I am just a human.

Let see a little sample of the applications of this "small" set things above looks like.... Enjoy.

------------------------

My Way

Frank Sinatra

And now the end is near
And so I face the final curtain
My friend, I'll say it clear
I'll state my case of which I'm certain.......

For what is a man, what has he got?
If not himself then he has naught
To say the things he truly feels
And not the words of one who kneels
The record shows I took the blows
And did it my way

William E

03-28-2003, 12:10 AM

I would like to add my understanding of the relationship of Shaolin to Wing Chun and the HFY lineage that I have practiced for only 2 years (newbie).

The art of WC was developed in the Shaolin Temple in the later half of the 17th Century as a collaborative between the monks and military strategist who wanted to overthrow the government. To be proficient in an animal style a person had to practice for many years, have great strength and physical ability. Even then, the results of the training effort would be inconsistent and unreliable in combat at best. It would not be possible to train revolutionaries using these styles so a new combat style had to be developed. It had to be effective against all other styles, could be taught in a relatively short period of time, did not rely on speed and power, utilized a formula that can produce a consistent soldier, and maintained the Buddhist philosophy of the monks. The fighting system that was developed in called Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.

Thanks - William E.

Grendel

03-28-2003, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by William E
I would like to add my understanding of the relationship of Shaolin to Wing Chun and the HFY lineage that I have practiced for only 2 years (newbie).

The art of WC was developed in the Shaolin Temple in the later half of the 17th Century as a collaborative between the monks and military strategist who wanted to overthrow the government. To be proficient in an animal style a person had to practice for many years, have great strength and physical ability. Even then, the results of the training effort would be inconsistent and unreliable in combat at best. It would not be possible to train revolutionaries using these styles so a new combat style had to be developed. It had to be effective against all other styles, could be taught in a relatively short period of time, did not rely on speed and power, utilized a formula that can produce a consistent soldier, and maintained the Buddhist philosophy of the monks. The fighting system that was developed in called Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.

Thanks - William E.
Thanks for clearing up all the confusion. :rolleyes:

03-28-2003, 03:37 AM

Originally posted by Phenix
This set practicing the technics in the equal shoulder stance.. a small sample see next post on the continous....

What do you think this is?
Any body? Guess?

the name start with Small.... or Siu but not Siu Lien Tau. LOL:D

Hendrik, you are a big tease. I don't follow some of the threads that well, and may guess wrong. Please tell - who is it?

Thanks!
- Kathy Jo

yuanfen

03-28-2003, 07:01 AM

Hendrik- Sinatra didnt do things his way-- he had "group" help in every stage of his career. On some ballads-he was quite good..
but his range was not extensive. Listen to his version of Ol man river-- one of the worst versions of that song that requires range.

Phenix

03-28-2003, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by kj

Hendrik, you are a big tease. I don't follow some of the threads that well, and may guess wrong. Please tell - who is it?

Thanks!
- Kathy Jo

Hi Kathy,

This is a small part of Small letter Zhuang (set) of the Emei 12 Zhuang (set collection)
Perform by a TCM doctor Ip in Shang Hai at the 1985.
The Small Letter Zhuang or Siu Zee Zhong (in Cantonese) most of the part is perform in the equal shoulder stance. This set comes with the kuen kuit of Small letter post I have draft up and post a few days ago.

The application also is an Emei 12 Zhuang application.

Hendrik

Phenix

03-28-2003, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by yuanfen
Hendrik- Sinatra didnt do things his way-- he had "group" help in every stage of his career. On some ballads-he was quite good..
but his range was not extensive. Listen to his version of Ol man river-- one of the worst versions of that song that requires range.

Joy,

You are right.

Sure, Sinatra just sing the song "my Way." :D

03-28-2003, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by Phenix

Hi Kathy,

This is a small part of Small letter Zhuang (set) of the Emei 12 Zhuang (set collection)
Perform by a TCM doctor Ip in Shang Hai at the 1985.
The Small Letter Zhuang or Siu Zee Zhong (in Cantonese) most of the part is perform in the equal shoulder stance. This set comes with the kuen kuit of Small letter post I have draft up and post a few days ago.

The application also is an Emei 12 Zhuang application.

Hendrik

That is interesting. Thanks.
- kj

Phenix

03-28-2003, 08:36 AM

Hi KJ,

Here: re post a part of the kuit of Small letter Zhuang with some notes.

(A part of kuit for big picture)

Small Zhuang and Big Zhuang (posture),
Within the Kuit, there hidden the Zhuang.
Using the Forward and reverse complementary-ly
Never forget about" this" while Investigate and cultivating.
(note: "this" 1, be natural 2, never lack of coordination between mind/body/qi, 3, in application forget about oneself but not forget about the opponent. thus one can used silence to subdue the opponent. ie. such as Lay lau Hoi song...using the silence to subdue the action...)
Heaven and Earth 12 postures,
Training hard (one) needs the small (details)
Using this advance Kuit
Ten Thousand leads source from the small ( details).

(From) stance to legs (motion) forward or backward
The upper three and hands(in motion or still)
The middle three front bent, back bent, or side turn.
One must totally "master" this method (all must link into one pice)

Investigate the Small Posture while (practicing the set) within stillness and motion.
(contemplate the) Qi, Mai, on the surface (of the body) and deep (within the body)

External application and subdue (heart) Demon (one own illusion )
The enermy was injured but not noticed.

( A part of kuit for operational handling)

Start the praticed with Heaven posture
Stand in the equal shoulder stance
The heart (mind) is balance (tranquile/peace) and the breathing is quite
Both eyes stares forward (far) away
Start with moving left hand forward
Settle the Ying Palm at shoulder high
Finger toward the sky then transform into the center Mai (Half Ying Half Yang medirian)
Sweep (reel) spiral while return to waist.
Five finger tracing the taichi circle. (note one of the picture above showing this. five finger closing into a fist. one by one and step by step.... Look at Master Fung's clip and see there are similarities...... I have heard YKS lineage also doing this, and I know Yik Kam lineage also doing this.....)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.sacredjourneys.org/schedule/a_emei.html
"The lineage :
During the Southern Song Dynasty in 1227 AD a Wudang Daoist martial and medicinal priest named White Cloud, came to Emei's Golden Summit, became a Buddhist monk and eventually the Sudden Enlightenment abbot of the Hua Zang Temple. After writing the Precious Lotus Cannon and formulating the External Energy Diagnosis and Treatment System Samantabhadra came to him in a vision and told him to pass on his knowledge to the next generation to help rid the world of pain and suffering and to let the light of the lineage shine like the sun. Undisturbed for eight centuries the monastics who practiced this tradition enjoyed a peaceful co-existence with the natural radiance of Emei Mountain until WWII. During the war Master Yongxin passed the lineage onto Zhou Qianchuan who went to Shanxi, Province and opened an Emei clinic there. He taught the public for the first time in history ......"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The TCM Dr Ip who perform the set in the picture is a student of Zhou QianChuan.

There are lots and lots of things can be shown and write about.
Rene is helping me on my english ...... to write them with English is difficult, most of the time cannot do direct word to word translation since it will make no sense in english gramatically.....
There are application kuits... there are comparision kuits between Yik Kam kuit and 12 zhuang kuit.... there are tons of things. what is here is just a tip of ice berg. time, time, time take along time even just to write simple things due to lots of prerequisit involve.

I hope those who write article in Magazine about Shao Lin and SLT as the original of WCK shown research evident, concept, paltform, and legacy which can be traced with Written record. Just publishing general story and claiming other's is not the "original" is not good enough. Not to mention, trying to force others to change ancestors......

Can I be perfect? no, just another human.
What is the agenda? proper "key" will unlock the "power" of SLT/SNT. and we need that "key" for all of us to proceed. (certainly, people can disagree with me) IMHO.
if we are wrong in getting into the root of SLT this time. we, our generation, might screw up WCK big time because we are forcing the wrong "key" to open the door. So, IMHO, welcome everyone's idea with evidents. Everyone should have thier chance to present what they belive. that is my belive.

One can doing serious thing and still having fun without all the degrating others and personal attack....

Regards
Hendrik

EclecticStorm

03-30-2003, 02:56 PM

Phenix sounds like he is really on to a connection with White crane and Emie 12 posts. But we need to see more. What about the Yik kam Kuen Kuit? You only mentioned one. Could you post a few more? How many Kuen Kuit were passed down from Yik kam? And could you please sight you sources for the information and pictures youve posted on the Emie 12? Did Dr.Ip write a book?

Jim, in that clip of Master Fung Chun, what is the name of what he is doing? Someone mentioned "Saam Bai Fut". And could you tell me the names of the individual motions, as taught in your system? Is there also Kuen Kuit passed down from Great Granmaster Leung Jan? And do they match at all with what you have seen posted here from Emie 12 posts? Master Fung is incredible! I hope i am that smooth at his age! Thanks in advanced. It is an honor seeing WC direct from China!

Phenix

03-30-2003, 06:00 PM

No one can connect what is not connected.
That includes me. And I can be wrong.
Whether it is connect or not connected is up to what is the fact.
And, It doesn't matter about Yik Kam. since with Yik Kam's lineage decades ago things had been proven.

So, the point is looking at those stuffs for yourself if those things are connect and will benifit your cultivation.

If they are connected, then the benifit for one is :
all of the treasures of 12 zhuang writing in internal cultivation ( mind/body/qi... medicine...) can be adopted
for Spiritual, Health, and martial art application as a good reliable reference.

No one makes the bucks but everyone benifit and WCK win.

KenWingJitsu

03-31-2003, 01:04 PM

anyone else gain pleasure from squeezing their anus?:D

lmao @ this thread

Matrix

03-31-2003, 09:05 PM

Uranus, it's not just the 7th planet from the sun.

EclecticStorm

04-01-2003, 02:43 PM

Phenix, its not my job to proove what you are presenting to the public as the origin of Yik Kam WCK /possible all WCK. Any true researcher or historian gives there sources of there information. Its not top secret, or is it?. You have made a claim. And you need to back up your claim and list your resources, if you want to be taken seriously and im sure you do, or you wouldnt have ever posted. Or are you playing a game? Just give everybody a tid bit, cause there isnt anything else there? I believe it could be true but "we" need to see more. You are doing something half baked. Be a true rigorous researcher. Give us what you have. Or you can be like most of the WCK "Historians", and blow smoke up are butts.

Jim????? Leung jan kuen kuit?? Fung chun?? Or can any one else answer my original post?

KenWingJitsu

04-01-2003, 03:14 PM

lol @ Matrix. A KWJ-esque reply if there ever was one. Mind if I borrow it?

Phenix

04-01-2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by EclecticStorm
Phenix, its not my job to proove what you are presenting to the public as the origin of Yik Kam WCK /possible all WCK. Any true researcher or historian gives there sources of there information. Its not top secret, or is it?. You have made a claim. And you need to back up your claim and list your resources, if you want to be taken seriously and im sure you do, or you wouldnt have ever posted. Or are you playing a game? Just give everybody a tid bit, cause there isnt anything else there? I believe it could be true but "we" need to see more. You are doing something half baked. Be a true rigorous researcher. Give us what you have. Or you can be like most of the WCK "Historians", and blow smoke up are butts.

Jim????? Leung jan kuen kuit?? Fung chun?? Or can any one else answer my original post?

Thank you for your concern. he who in Yik Kam lineage got those infromation. That is internal Yik Kam family business. When it is the time to publish then that is the time to publish. It is about sharing not about Yik Kam family owing to you. sorry.

as for "possible all WCK" I post the 12 zhuang kuit here and you decide for yourself.

I made a claim, i show the 12 zhuang and white crane. so you don't expect me to do your home work for your right?
12 zhuang and white crane informatin is all over the place. They present themself.
as for tit and bits I think you need to digest the kuit translation before you call it tit and bits. :D

Matrix

04-01-2003, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
lol @ Matrix. A KWJ-esque reply if there ever was one. Mind if I borrow it? Hey KWJ. It's all yours. I've borrowed your "Denile" line, so it's all fair game. ;)

Matrix

Rolling_Hand

04-01-2003, 08:50 PM

--No one can connect what is not connected.--HS

**Why don't you use UPS?

--That includes me. And I can be wrong.--HS

**You know yourself well.

--Whether it is connect or not connected is up to what is the fact.--HS

**Why don't you tell us about *your fact*?

--And, It doesn't matter about Yik Kam. since with Yik Kam's lineage decades ago things had been proven.--HS

**Count your blessings today. What would it take to convince you that you already have it all?

--So, the point is looking at those stuffs for yourself if those things are connect and will benifit your cultivation.--HS

**What are those stuffs?

quote:Originally posted by EclecticStorm

Phenix, its not my job to proove what you are presenting to the public as the origin of Yik Kam WCK /possible all WCK. Any true researcher or historian gives there sources of there information. Its not top secret, or is it?. You have made a claim. And you need to back up your claim and list your resources, if you want to be taken seriously and im sure you do, or you wouldnt have ever posted. Or are you playing a game? Just give everybody a tid bit, cause there isnt anything else there? I believe it could be true but "we" need to see more. You are doing something half baked. Be a true rigorous researcher. Give us what you have. Or you can be like most of the WCK "Historians", and blow smoke up are butts.

Jim????? Leung jan kuen kuit?? Fung chun?? Or can any one else answer my original post?

Jim Roselando

04-02-2003, 07:59 AM

Hello Hendrik, E.Storm & Rolling Hand,

Nice pictures! Very similar indeed. Thanks for sharing.

E.S.,

The movements being shown by Fung Chun sifu are the basic moves of Koo Lo WC as preserved by the Dai Sihing Wong Wah Sam. These were movements retained by Leung Jan from his original SLT set (but done a pinch different from what I normally see) yet still performed to perfection by the old headmaster of our family.

We do have some Kuen Kuit but nothing too different from what has been read about in the past. Actually, this is the area I need to sit down with my sifu and study more about.

Can you please provide your name? You are from MA. (and so am I) and I prefer not talking with computer ghost names. Thanks!

Rolling Hand,

Still waiting for your DNA discussion or some thoughts on my original post/comparison. Any positive contributions would be appreciated. I attached another foto of which shows the WC structure and it looks a bit different from the so-called Shaolin arts in my eyes.

Regards,

Phenix

04-02-2003, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by Rolling_Hand

--And, It doesn't matter about Yik Kam. since with Yik Kam's lineage decades ago things had been proven.--HS

**Count your blessings today. What would it take to convince you that you already have it all?

First of all, The title of this post is both in appropriate and rude. This shown the level of your Mo Dak. Will a Shao Lin disciple to overthrown Qing post this title?

Second, since you are so convince on your Shao Lin story is the truth. Why don't you show your part of the details. I am open with all kind of possibilities with evidents.

As for what would it take trying to convince me.

One doesn't have to go that far.

with the Emei 12 zhuang's Small letter Zhuang's picutures of platfrom, and kuen kuit, and legacy as reference,

Show me any of your Shao Lin DNA pictures, Kuin Kuit, and platform from a branch or school of shao lin which is closer then them. all of items shown has to be linking as a whole pice not fragmented. and not based of the Chinese Government says so or certified....

and of corse, also the legacy that school of shao lin, also has to be able to be traced from other family. Not those based on "my family oral record".

This is just a very small part what people in the Asia has known, i didn't even get into real details yet. if you can't even match this small part of evidents. How can you even try to convice me?

I am looking forward for you to convince me. I am open.