What do you think of this routine?

[rogue]

What do you think of this routine? (http://www.graphicmuscle.com/Vince_Gironda.html)

[Serpent]

Oh man, it's all about look. It's purely cosmetic sounding. You vain ol' bugger you! ;)

[rogue]

It's not about winning or losing the fight Serpent, it's about looking good doing it!:D

[Serpent]

LOL. Lying on the ground broken and bleeding is fine, as long as you have a nice shadow under your pecs and a broad-looking back!

:D

[rogue]

Hey that shadow drives the chicks wild!

Really though, this is the guy that invented the preacher curl, the high fat low carb diet and what's now known German Volume Training that Poliquin pushes.

This is what he looked like in his 40's (http://www.classicbodybuilders.com/classicbodybuildervincegironda.html)

The thing about the old guys and their routines was that they had functional muscle.

[Serpent]

Well, that's good. Functional muscle is what it's all about in my opinion. Otherwise it's like high heeled shoes.

[Robinf]

But you have to walk around with your arms out to the side and your legs crossed in order to get the full effect.:D

Things is, that's kind of the old school way of thinking--to do what the biggest or most defined guys in the gym do. What works for some genetics may not work as well for others. Some genetics may benefit better from different exercises.

Robin

[Samurai Jack]

Quote:

"SETS and REPS for men over 40—I particularly advise beginning this program with three sets only. You may add a fourth set later only if you feel that you are honestly doing the exercises to the best of your ability. Train three times a week with at least a day of rest between workouts."

How is this different from the antiquated dinosaur bull that's being published in Men's Health on a monthly basis? Three sessions a week with the token "at least a day of rest between" isn't going to get you anything but overtrained in your first week or two. Once you're overtrained, your body will stop growing because you haven't given it adequate rest. Which leads to the next ridiculous paragraph (emphasis mine):

Quote:

"BEWARE OF ADDING SETS AND WEIGHT. THIS USUALLY INDICATES SLOPPIER FORM AND IS AN EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY IT. Rather than to raise the weight, I advise doing three sets of 8 reps, and increasing the reps as you improve to 12. NEVER RAISE THE REPS OR WEIGHT UNTIL YOU HAVE COMPLETED THREE WORKOUTS AT THE NUMBER OF REPS YOU ARE USING AT THE TIME. This is the system that I taught at my gym for fifty years with great success."


Beware of following routines designed by people who are not willing to research, adhere to solid exercise physiology, or even think logically. If you aren't adding weight, you aren't forcing your body to get stronger, nor are you adequatly stimulating muscle growth. We should always strive to increase the intensity of our workouts from one session to the next. If you've rested adequatly, this shouldn't be a problem.

I'm sure this fellow has had "great success" in his fifty years of training bodybuilders with this system, especially bodybuilders who hit the juice every time they plateau, and you surely would if you stayed with the same routine for fifty years, especially if you didn't change the reps or weights!

This guy makes me want to gag.

[rogue]

I'm sure this fellow has had "great success" in his fifty years of training bodybuilders with this system, especially bodybuilders who hit the juice every time they plateau, and you surely would if you stayed with the same routine for fifty years, especially if you didn't change the reps or weights! Why not try researching the guy first instead of shooting yourself in the foot.


What works for some genetics may not work as well for others. Agree with you there Robin. I tried HIT and I got nowhere but fatter and screwed up my left knee. I got stronger but no more so than my old 3 day and 6 day a week workouts were getting me. But I also know people who thrived on it.

[Samurai Jack]

Rogue,

If I have offended you, I apologize. I happen to disagree very strongly with Gironda's diet plan AND German High Volume Training as well. I suppose I would be more tactful if I was speaking with him directly, but I think that the theories he wrote about in that article were pure bunk. Research has shown that:

1. Volume does not equal intensity, in fact the more intensely you train, the less volume you can sustain

2. Intensity is THE most important factor for hypertrophy and strength increase

3. An inverse relationship exists between intensity and rest, the more intensly you train, the more rest is required

These are unassailable laws of physical science. The three day a week, one day of rest between paradigm is completely outmoded and based on bodybuilding fiction. Unless you're using the big "S", you won't be able to sustain the level of intensity required for gains on a program like that.

Genetics dosen't play a role here either. While it may be true that some people will be able to gain on a training program like that for longer than others, EVERYONE is subject to the above three rules. That's one of the main reasons so many serious strength trainee's plateau so quickly.

I wish I had more time to write here, but I don't. If you want to argue scientific facts, I'm game. If you want to get upset, let's just agree to disagree, no hard feelings. ;)

Train Hard!

[rogue]

No offense taken Jack. I think it also has to do with what your goals are. Mine are in order of importance are muscle endurance, overall excercise, strength/size all while staying injury free. For me a good basic three times a week full body workout or various 3, 4 or 6 six day a week splits have always left me feeling good with good performance in the dojang. The one constant has always been to keep the workouts to 45 minutes with short rest periods. My idea of intensity may be different than yours. Mine is to tax the muscles while also raising my heart rate for 45 minutes.

Who are you following in regards to HIT training? Are you using pre-exhaution or warm ups? Full body or splits? What's your time in the gym per week?

Girondas diet plan was meant to only be used for very short periods not the extended method used by dieters today.


These are unassailable laws of physical science. The three day a week, one day of rest between paradigm is completely outmoded and based on bodybuilding fiction. Unless you're using the big "S", you won't be able to sustain the level of intensity required for gains on a program like that. Well you can paint a big S on the chests of Steve Reeves, Bill Pearl, Larry Scott and many others.

[Samurai Jack]

I don't train with HIT. So called "High Intensity Training" actually isn't intense enough for me.:D The problem is that the training protocol calls for moving a given weight through a full range of motion for between 5 and 8 repitions. I seen several HIT programs and they involve anywhere from between one set, to as many sets as can be performed until the trainee drops! Quite silly if you ask me, and here's why:

1. First off, training until "you drop to the ground puking" as one author has suggested, is probably the most dangerous long term training strategy I can imagine. I mean, by the time you are actually lying on the ground vomiting from the stress, you have basically put yourself into a state of shock. This is not medically safe to do even once, but here we are told to do this three days a week!? Oh, but it's O.K. because I take a day off between sessions... Puhleeeze!

2. It's obvious from the above mentioned protocol that you would not be giving yourself adequate recovery time between sessions. Basically, recovery entails a complex process that includes such functions as:

A) Your kidneys removing lactic acid from your muscles, which takes from between one and four days for most people. During this time you will feel sore and stiff.

B) Your muscles healing from any cellular damage, facia damage, and tendon or ligament strain caused by your workout. This takes from between two and seven ADDITIONAL days, because your body can't start healing the damage until the lactic acid is gone (it inhibits healing, growth, flexibility and movement). Depending on the damage sustained, you will feel nothing or you might feel VERY sore. Ever had one of those workouts where you rested for two days, felt find, then woke up the next day hurting worse than ever?

C) Once these processes have taken place, NOW your body starts the growth process. This lasts for a relativly short period of time from between one to four days. That's it, then you gotta go back to the gym if you want more growth.

So to sum it up, we are looking at from four days to two weeks for full recovery to occur. The sad thing is, unless you use that "S" word again, you can't get around it. The good news though, is that you don't really have to.

I'll write more later.

[Samurai Jack]

Alright, so here is the basic definition:

Most people I talk to in the gym seem to completly miss this one. Intensity and volume are two entirely different creatures. Volume simply refers to length of any training session, while intensity describes the degree of effort put forth during the session.

The problem arises when people confuse these terms thinking that in order to increase the intensity of thier workout they need to increase the time spent in the gym, the number of reps/exercises they perform, and on a weekly scale, the number of training sessions.

The fact is though, that exactly the oposite is true, when you increase the volume of work, you must decrease the intensity because the two components exist in an inverse relationship with each other.

For example, no one on the planet can lift thier one rep max more than once. I know, I know,"But Jack, that's why they call it a 'one rep max', Duuuuhhh!". The reason though is because as it's done conventionally, your one rep max is the highest intensity level your body is capable of achieving with a given exercise.

No matter how hard you try you won't be able to do three sets of eight of your one rep max, hell I dare you to perform two reps in a row! If you suceed though you haven't proven me wrong. You've simply proven that you were working beneath your maximum intensity. ;)

Another example: No one on the planet, no matter how fit, no matter how many olympic track metals they have earned, can all out sprint for one mile. Why? Because sprinting is the maximum intensity a runner is capable of achieving, and thus the maximum speed.

So how does one train intensely? Well, remember when I mentioned that one rep max? You've got to either train at less than 100% intensity, or you've got to find a way to push beyond it.

Research has shown that powerlifting protocols are some of the best methods around for building strength. Certainly lifting low rep sets, at 90% or more of your copacity is one way. I know a guy who actually lifts his one rep max for five sets (taking about ten minutes of rest between "sets" so he dosen't have to lower the intensity).

Another alternative is to try working BEYOND your one rep max useing partials. I loooove partials because working at the top range of a movement you can usually lift quite a bit more than what you thought was your 1 rep max.

Right now I'm working with a static program involving no movement whatsoever. You read that right, NO movement, and while results of the overall program are still pending, just this week I bench pressed 450 lbs. My one rep max almost four weeks ago was 230 lbs. Talk about intensity! That's almost twice my max, an intensity that requires a lot of rest, but big payoff's in the end.

Anyhow, if you want to know exactly what I'm doing, check it out at: www.precisiontrainer.com

[fa_jing]

Wow! in just a few short months more, you will be benching well over 1000 pounds. :D :rolleyes:

[Samurai Jack]

Yeah, I know it sounds incredible, but you are capable of lifting much more than you probably think you can statically. You can also lift alot more than your one rep max using partials if forced growth without movement is too much for you to swallow.

Please don't take my word for it though. Try it yourself and see what you think. Do some research, experiment, try to push beyond the norm. I'm already lifting over a thousand pounds on the leg press. If you don't believe me, I'll be glad to have you join me for a workout.

The science is real, the theory is sound, and the results I'm getting are well beyond what I ever thought was possible. I can't help but want to share it with others!

[fa_jing]

Hey, good going then !

;)