Disarms: Anybody here practice or teach them?

[rogue]

Just wondering if anybody here practices gun and knife disarms or control techniques? How do you train them, what do you train, what's the worst techniques you've seen and the best.

[Ether]

Interesting topic. The thing with knives is that if the wielder has any skill, you ARE going to get cut. The only thing you can do is minimise the damage you receive before you disable them.

With guns, I honestly have to say that if someone is pointing a pistol at me and im not already in contact with their hand then their is NO WAY im gonna try and disarm them. Not unless they look away, take their finger off the trigger or do something else stupid.

Maybe the best option is to spot the weapon and stop them drawing it in the first place?



;)

[bob10]

We train in both.

One of the guys last night was telling me of another school he attended, where the knife defence still consisted of donward and upward X block against stabs....

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Ether
Interesting topic. The thing with knives is that if the wielder has any skill, you ARE going to get cut. The only thing you can do is minimise the damage you receive before you disable them.

With guns, I honestly have to say that if someone is pointing a pistol at me and im not already in contact with their hand then their is NO WAY im gonna try and disarm them. Not unless they look away, take their finger off the trigger or do something else stupid.

Maybe the best option is to spot the weapon and stop them drawing it in the first place?

;)

If your opponent has a weapon and I don't, first thing which should come to my mind is NOT "how to fight him?" or "how to disarm him?" but "how to get the **** out here?". :)

Having said it, in some unlikely event that you are cornered in very small coridor, here is an advice. I do aikido a bit and we use knife attack a lot. Most important thing is not disarming but evasion, alway staying out of the line of attack and always maintaining the distance. And if the opponent overextend himself, then at that point we get hold of his arm and wrist (which is a bit dangerous) and try to control him using wrist, elbow or shoulder lock.

So basically, stay out and if possible, pick up anything you can use it as a weapon. then if there is a chance to grab his arm (which is rare if the guy only use knife to thrash) do so and don't ****ing let it go, but remember the most important thing you should be thinking is how to get the **** out.

[cutter]

grab the weapon bearing limb,fight like hell, put him on the ground, take his weapon. disarms, like jointlocks, work much better if you smash the opponant's face, break his ankle, slice him open(if you are aremed, if you aren't, hit him again)and slam his head on the ground.;)

[Ether]

@Vapour.
I agree on the 'not being there long' sentiment, but I would definately want to be sure of a good head start before turning my back on someone with a knife.

Besides, its all well and good if you actually know he has a knife before hand, but ive read (sorry, dont remember where) that most people dont know they are being attacked with a knife until they have been stabbed and see the blood. My personal experience certainly bears this out. When I was 15 I was stabbed by a friend (dont even ask!) with a small metal spike. I didnt even know he had it until i saw it covered in blood.

I've practised Aikido myself in the past (albeit only for two years) and although I like a lot of the knife defence techniques, they do ideally depend on having a lot of space. I would certainly agree with grabbing yourself a weapon, if time and circumstance permits but I do think that by the time you've turned to look for a weapon, you might already have had your ribs tickled!

I think cutter has a point (if very colorfully put!) that if you get an opportunity, dont give them even half a chance. I do know that if I ever get the upperhand against an armed attacker there will be A LOT of rending and tearing going on.

I dont think it can be overstated how hard it is to secure a trained knife wielders weapon arm though

[Budokan]

Yes, we practice both in our dojo. Yes, knife and gun disarms are mostly flights of fancy. Why? Because it's a KNIFE and a GUN and all you have is a hand with some skin on it. Hardly a fair fight.

But we still practice 'em and there's nothing wrong with that as long as you realize their serious limitations.

[bob10]

Here's one drill we do that's nice for awareness:

Partner A turns his back. Partner B puts a knife on his person somewhere. Start with an obvious place, like the belt. A then turns and he has to simply spot the knife and take it, nothing else.

Of course the hiding places start getting less obvious. You can then start adding in various things - B moves around, B goes to draw the knife and A must check him, B has the knife dranw when A turns, etc

After a while you start picking up the body language, the most likely draw positions and so on,

[rin]

I think one of the largest misconceptions is that an attacker that is "skilled" with a knife is more dangerous than a novice. In most street type situations, you will probably never even know if that person has a knife until you have been stabbed. Palming, behind the back, etc. Someone who is swinging erratically with a bladed object is just as, if not more, dangerous as someone who is "skilled" at knife teqniques. Don't overanalyze.

[apoweyn]

I used to teach disarms a lot more when I first started teaching. In eskrima, we covered a lot of knife and stick disarms. Some more plausible than others.

To my mind (and please bear in mind that I haven't been in any knife fights, obviously), the most plausible tactic is to punch the bicep of the opponent's weapon hand. It may not result in a disarm right off the bat. But it's a good start.

I've heard people say that if you're going to do that, you might just as well punch them in the head and be done with it. My thinking is that people slip punches to the head all the time. It's a very common tactic in boxing to slip a punch and counter to the ribs. Now, if that counter to the ribs is with a knife, that's pretty much the game right there.

I figure that even if my hit to the arm doesn't disarm him, or even hurt him, at least it's put a momentary roadblock between his knife and my soft bits.


Stuart B.

[Shooter]

he shoots!...he scores!!!

[Chang Style Novice]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/030313/168/3i6de.html&e=1&ncid=996

[Black Jack]

A little de-fanging the snake Ap? :D

A good motto in relationship to the issue of knifes that I like is one called "disarm through pain". Meaning that disarms are attacks of opportunity. I don't mean joint locks, though that could be the case, except I don't have a lot of faith in the latter and consider them to be on the side of wishfull thinking as taking a knife away from a deranged, beserk, sweaty and maybe even bloody attacker to be somewhat on the remote side.

I mean with with blows intended to break up the forward drive of the attacker, to give the attacker something else to think about instead of just cutting up on you and hopefully take him/her out or drain enough energy out of him to get an escape route, that is if such a thing is possible, you may be pushed into a corner, be seated, in a car, crowded by furniture, whatever, which means you should practice deep in clinching range as well as largo mano attacks.

Don't play chase the blade and make sure to guard your centerline, your neck, your arteries like the brachial and radial in your arms, your femoral in your inner thigh, a lose of consciousness from a slashed brachial could be in effect in just over 30 seconds and death in over 2 minutes without medical attention to stunch the bleeding, if you are already oxygen deprived than the math could be much worse.

If I am able to clinch and hold the delivery system in practice while striking than great but otherwise I practice attacking the attacker, striking his head and neck ballisticaly, gouge or tiger claw your fingers into his eyes if possible even for just a flinch reaction, repeated blows to the weapon arm, low edge of boot kicks to the knee, knee strikes to the groin or even the inner or outer thigh, stomps to the foot/shin, cross-buttock sweeps and clinch throws if possible, basically just attack as you get the opportunity and as the situation dictates.

I practice this by using white crappy t-shirts, fencing or sparring masks, training knifes covered in lipstick/ink or just good old fashioned markers. Try it from different ranges like duelling range and close quarters, be creative in your situations and attack responses, have your attacker do a straight out bulldog blitz for 30 seconds to a minute and check yourself for damage after, and guage your reactions. It is fun stuff.

I also try to look at anything else around me that may be added to the mix quickly, a coat around a arm for extra protection or ass a whip, a chair or other enviromental object to fight back with, any projectiles to throw at the attacker.

Hope this helped at all.

btw-shooter, good post. Emotinal context:)

One more point- I think the trouble with the x-block is that people often imagine the defender just sitting there in the block. When I picture it done it is more like the x-movement of hubad. Either way if it stops somebody from thrusting a knife into your stomach and then you react, good for the old x-block.

[yenhoi]

I practice knife, handgun, and shotgun disarms (along with stick disarms.)

Disarm drills and flows are really just sensitivity drills, disarms happen, you dont go for them.

Even without a weapon, I go after the closest targets, attacking hands, biceps, knees, ankles, on in. Headhunters die.

:eek:

[Shooter]

Black Jack, I call throwing stuff, "air support".

Whether closing or getting away, even if you don't actually have anything to throw, the pattern you present can buy you valuable time and space.

[Black Jack]

Shooter-nice...I never thought of that. I take it you are you looking for a flinch type response from the fake throw to buy time for either the escape or the attack?

[Shooter]

Black Jack, exactly. Maybe not a flinch, but enough of a rhythmic pause to take the intiative one way or the other.

On that same idea, we're 10x more likely to be attacked by a dog than a human, so it's one of the first things I show kids. We have lots of large mutts roaming our town and it's worked for me many times.

[Black Jack]

Shooter.

Cool:D

Come to think of it I remeber doing this as a youngster when rough housing for a king of the hill match. One of your buds is going to charge you and a good "fake" projectile fast pitch sends him covering his head, nicely disrupting that nasty rush that would of taken you from that wonderfull throne of mud and grass.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Black Jack
Meaning that disarms are attacks of opportunity.

I know exactly what apoweyn is thinking whilst reading this line. I am too.

The rest of you can wonder. :D

I don't have much to add; I'm a sports fighter/student and I recognize that; my disarm technique is tossing him my wallet. But good posts from Shooter and Black Jack.

[Shooter]

Black Jack, Some kids have great survival instinct. :D

[TaoBoxer]

Interesting timing.... I just taught a 2 day class on Weapon Retention and Disarmament.

As far as the Gun disarms go (long gun and pistol) I tell my guys that if you cant physically touch the weapon from your starting point, forget it. Action is faster that Reaction, and if you are within arms reach of the gun you can make the attempt to hit the weapon or the arm holding it, and move inside the turning radius of the weapon. After knocking the weapon offline and moving inside, you can work on the disarm.

In my method, I tell the guys "Control the weapon, Attack the Attacker." The guidance system (brain) is more important than the weapon itself.

I think it is relevent to mention however, I teach these classes to Law Enforcement only. They don't have the option of retreat.... When they deal with armed individuals, there are only 2 outcomes.... The guy leaves in custody or on a stretcher. I also tell them that they need to realise that when wrestling with a gun, it is going to discharge.... Another important factor.....

Mostly I think this whole thing is super risky. The only time it is appropriate is when there is no ability to retreat or no other method of disarming the subject (OC, Less-Lethal ordinance, or deadly force).

my .02

Bill

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by TaoBoxer
"Control the weapon, Attack the Attacker." The guidance system (brain) is more important than the weapon itself.

Can you give some examples of techniques of this principle being applied?

[Black Jack]

TaoBoxer,

Is that the LEO system known as "Pat, Wrap and Attack"?

[TaoBoxer]

The pat/wrap/attack philosophy isn't unique.... It's just good training. I actually talked about that to this last class. I believe it was pioneered by a guy named Michael Boatman from the UK.

As loathe as I am to "describe techniques" I'll give this a shot.....


Johnny Badguy has a pistol trained on Officer Friendly. He is spewing explatives......

Officer Friendly has to make some descisions... 1) Can I touch the weapon from where I am standing? 2) Is he gonna pull the trigger regardless of what I do? 3) Will I be better off complying?

Assuming he has made the descision to disarm Johnny Badguy, Officer Friendly now has to decide to step Left or Right (chosing to go to the Open side or the Closed side).

Assuming he will step to the Left he will 1) step out with the Left foot 2) hit the weapon hand with HIS LEFT palm, knocking the weapon off-line (expect a discharge) 3) attack the face (physically and psychologically offbalancing) then immediately follow the arm down for the Weapon. 4) once you have contact with the weapon, perform your disarm of choice

The scenarios and techniques we run are roughly as follows:

Holstered weapon: attack with no gun grab, gun grab from the front with L hand, R hand, Both hands, grab from the grear, grab from the rear with a choke

Weapon Presented: Grab from the front, Grab from the Side

Weapopn Retrieval: Officer friendly lost his gun and now must get it back

We also go extensively into retention of Long Guns, and thne into the Disarm portion, which includes multiple shooting positions of pistols and long guns, and an introduction of Impact weapons, such as clubs and knives.

I am assuming you'll want to knit-pick at this point, which is fine.... It's what we do here.... I have run hundreds of scenarios with Simunition and Airsoft and these methods work well.

Hope this helps......

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by TaoBoxer
Assuming he has made the descision to disarm Johnny Badguy, Officer Friendly now has to decide to step Left or Right (chosing to go to the Open side or the Closed side).

Which type of stances and gun-holds is "Badguy" using when you train your disarms?

Have you found a difference in percentage of successful disarms in relation to stances/gun grips?



Originally posted by TaoBoxer
2) hit the weapon hand with HIS LEFT palm, knocking the weapon off-line (expect a discharge) 3) attack the face (physically and psychologically offbalancing) then immediately follow the arm down for the Weapon.

How do you train the hit(s) to the face?

I assume there is no control of the weapon until after you have hit the face. Have you also worked without hitting the face, but instead, maintaining control of the weapon? If so, what were your percentages of success with each?



Originally posted by TaoBoxer
I have run hundreds of scenarios with Simunition and Airsoft and these methods work well.

What are your overall percentage of success vs. failure in your disarm scenarios?

[rogue]

The local POST academy ACT curriculuum, LOL!

I have three friends who are on the local jail staff and who are attending CAT1 in order to become fully certified Sheriff Deputies. They were just showing me some of the stuff they were "taught" tonight.

To quote the great Col. Kurtz: "The horror....the horror..." Watchman what did they show them? Clearing to the inside of something?

BlackJack, the much maligned x-block. When it's executed only as a block and not a feeding technique to a grab or lock.

Other than that Knifefighter is handling the questioning better than I could.

[rin]

Check out this link. www.clearsilat.com/silat/Articles/Knives.htm

[GeneChing]

Source: Martial-arts move used on man, 33, who died after alleged robbery attempt on Staten Island (https://www.silive.com/crime-safety/2022/09/source-martial-arts-move-used-on-man-33-who-died-after-alleged-robbery-attempt-in-eltingville.html)
Updated: Sep. 13, 2022, 7:43 a.m.|Published: Sep. 12, 2022, 8:50 a.m.
https://www.silive.com/resizer/TeophVZaR_5ShJIs965gG_Ob5t8=/1280x0/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/advancelocal/PDHYLC47RNBQRKERWFEGMVBOY4.jpeg
A 33-year-old man died after he allegedly tried to rob two 29-year-olds at St. Albans Place and Pacific Avenue in Eltingville on Sunday, Sept. 11, 2022. (Staten Island Advance/Jan Somma-Hammel)

By Maura Grunlund | mauragrunlund@siadvance.comJan Somma-Hammel | jsomma@siadvance.com

STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. — A 33-year-old would-be robber who tried to stick up two men with a fake gun in Eltingville later died after the victims fought back and subdued him with a martial-arts technique, according to sources.

Officers responded to a 911 call of a gunpoint robbery in progress at Pacific Avenue and St. Albans Place just before 2 a.m. Sunday and found the 33-year-old man unconscious and unresponsive, according to a written statement from the NYPD’s Deputy Commissioner of Public Information.

The deadly confrontation occurred in front of St. Alban’s Episcopal Church and behind a major shopping mall. The scene in the normally-quiet area remained roped off with caution tape on Monday morning.

The would-be robber displayed what appeared to be a firearm, but turned out to be a BB gun when the weapon was recovered by police, according a spokesman for the NYPD.

He demanded money, police said.

During the course of the attempted robbery, the two victims, both 29, did some type of martial-arts move to knock the gun away and physically subdue the 33-year-old until cops arrived, according to a source with knowledge of the investigation. The suspected robber, who stood around 6 feet tall and was very thin, somehow lost consciousness, the source said.

He was pronounced dead at Staten Island University Hospital in Ocean Breeze, the police spokesman said.

The medical examiner’s office will determine the cause of death.

Police have not filed charges against the two 29-year-old men, who suffered minor injuries to their arms and legs during the confrontation. They were treated at Staten Island University Hospital in Prince’s Bay.

The case moves to the district attorney’s office for review, the source said.

The identification for the 33-year-old man, who has a lengthy criminal history, is pending family notification.
The way I read this, the disarm was the 'martial arts' and the cause of death is still to be determined.