centerline effectiveness

[Chen Zen]

Hello All. I just started my Wing Chun training after years of other arts. Eager to test what I had learned I went to a karateka friends house and we began sparring. It seemed to me that Wing Chun was weak against attacks that didnt follow the centerline. Is this just in the beginning? I just started Sil Lum Doa so I am not an advanced Wing Chun artist but I am a skilled fighter. What do you think? Was I applying it wrong or is it defecient? Thank you. Chen Zen

[jesper]

Empty your cup.

The advantages of keeping the centerline is pretty obvious. But as for all new technics or knowledges it takes time to learn so be patient.

As for countering circular attacks, we do have suchs technics, but until you learn them just remember this; If in doubt attack. If attacked, attack. If hit, attack.....

To be more specific. If he tries to hit you with a roundhouse kick, frontkick him in the stomac etc. Maybe he will still hit you, but if you are faster, he wont hit as hard as you do :).
Oh and as soon as you make contact dont let go, until he is down, and when that happens kick him a few times in the head until he stays down

[taltos]

I don't know if this is an issue as well, but one thing to remember is that protecting the centerline and owning the centerline only gives you an advantage if the center wedge that you own is also the center wedge thet he needs.

If you are not facing the opponent so that he cannot hit you while you own that wedge, You are not capitalizing on the position. That's why setting up and facing, before the engagement, is so crucial. If you can line up properly before he crosses the go point, you can start out with the shortest distance to target, because he will have to either challenge you head on (bad idea because you have structure and will be able to redirect) or go around (take the long route and give you more time).

If you master that little strategy (admittedly easier said than done), then you can do as jesper was saying, and neutralize the threat before it can impart any real power top you, by hitting them while they try to hit you.

My Sitaigung has said... "You Move First, I Hit First." I did not fully understand at first, but now I think it refers to not necessarily being the fastest in absolute speed, but by always having the space that you need to hit and denying your opponent theirs. The easiest (ok, not easy, but obvious maybe) way to make sure you have the space you need and your opponent does not is to make both spaces one in the same, and to make sure you are the only one with dibs on that real estate.

-Levi

[Chen Zen]

Thank you. I do not quite understand what you meant by "wedge" but I think I have gotten the concept. Stuff his attacks with a straightline attack since it is quicker than an arch. Is this right? I will give this some thought. Thanks again. Chen Zen

[Marky]

Hi Chen Zen,

I found that wing chun, AT FIRST, is like any other form of kung fu; it's a bunch of techniques. This might just be due to my own kung fu stereotypes, however. Wing Chun really starts to shine when you learn to stick, you learn sensitivity, and you learn to play the wing chun game.

Just my opinion.

[Chen Zen]

Well I have no other Kung Fu experience other than concepts and philosophy so it is a first for me that I have long awaited. Thanks again.

[Matrix]

Chen Zen,

If you are making a transition from other arts, then my guess is that you reverted to your old ways when you sparred with your karateka friend. I also came to Wing Chun with a lot of "other arts" baggage and my experience was similar to yours. It takes a long time to shed the old behaviors. It also takes some time to replace the old belief systems with the new prinicples, at least that has been my experience.

If you have "just started" Sil Nim Tao, then you have a little bit more to learn before sparring, IMO. It will come in time, but rest assured, Wing Chun is very effective. Be patient, and abandon ideas of "winning" sparring contests. Your eagerness to "test" your new found skills may natural, but it may also be your downfall. It's like you are just learning to crawl and you wonder why you can't run a marathon yet. Enjoy the journey, and learn to trust what you are being taught.

As always, your mileage may vary.

Matrix

[Chen Zen]

Matrix, I did tend to use my regular arsenal of kicks that are not from Wing Chun. However all of the hand movements I used were from the Wing Chun. I grew comfortable with them because I sparred and practiced drills with them all day. For some reason it seemed that I was having a hard time with hooks keeping my hands in front of my centerline. I am sure that it is a good art though and after the first day I felt like a much improved fighter. As far as winning sparring matches I do want to win all the time since I want to win all the time if I were in a real situation. But thank you for telling me tht it will get better and I will take to mind the things you have said to me. Thank You, Chen Zen.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
For some reason it seemed that I was having a hard time with hooks keeping my hands in front of my centerline. I am sure that it is a good art though and after the first day I felt like a much improved fighter. You are probably chasing your opponents hands instead of maintaining WC principles. Not to worry, this is a natural tendency that will be broken as you progress...and you will progress. :) When you get to chi sao, you will learn to develop and refine these skills.

I would just like to address the statement of feeling like a better fighter on the first day. My observations have been that Wing Chun is a lot slower to develop these skills than other arts. Other arts have students running around kicking and punching in a very short period of time, weeks if not days. The student then has the delusion that they can fight. They feel like they are doing things that look like fighting skills and then you train to do them faster and harder. Wing Chun is a slower process. You work on basic structure and principles and progress along a very structured path to what I think is a superior skill level. But at times, especially in the beginning, you may feel as if you're not progressing (compared to your karateka friends) and you can become discouraged. Don't be fooled by this. It's like food, you can run to your local fast food joint (or belt factory) and grab a meal that satisifes your hunger quickly, but is it really nutritious? Better to carefully prepare a meal with fresh and healthy ingredients. It takes more time and effort, but the results are much more beneficial to the body, mind and spirit.

All the best with your training,

Matrix

[tparkerkfo]

Hi,

This is a response to the initial question.

If you just started wing chun, your probably not in a position to spar and make any judgement about its effectivness of the art. I would think others would have uncovered that years ago if it was a problem. It takes time to learn some skills and learn to apply them correctly.

The centerline is probably the best place to be when things are happening quickly. It is a natural protection barier that will save your butt time and time again, as you will find out as you progress. Wing Chun just didn't pull the idea out of thin air.

Using any tool out of context isn't a good idea. A lawn mower is great for cutting grass, but holding a blad of grass and feeding it to the lawnmower by hand probably isn't the best way to do it. Likewise, you have to read the wing chun owners manual and learn to use the centerline correctly.

The center line provides us with many things. One is that it is our natural protection. It puts us inplace to intercept the majority of attacks. Since it is a shroter distance, we can strike quicker than some one on the outside. It is a place that our structure can be harnessed to deleiver incredible power. We can draw a bead onto the opponent and attack his spine or core structure so he can not do anything. If we are on the centerline and the enemy punches, then we automaticly intercept his punch with out any concious effort.

That is the easy part. That is some of what it can do for us. But like the lawn mower, we have to employ it correctly. Standing out in sparing range like a couple of boxers is not using the center line idea correctly. And if your not very good at wing chun, and the other guy is pretty good at anything, your probably gonna be discouraged at best, and proabably sore the next day. LOL. You HAVE to bring the fight in and challange the opponent. You have to stick and prevent them from initiating an attack. You need to be in close range for this stuff to work, and you can sit back trading blows. The idea is NOT to let your opponent punch.

If you do it right, you should be able to hit him at will any time he tries to throw a hooking punch. There is a famous wing chun saying. Intercept/stay/stick with what comes, follow what retreats, and hit/rush in upon loss of contact. If your starting out and you don't feel anything, rush in to the centerline. If you have some sort of contact, then stay with it until there is an opening. If he his going to hit you with a outside attack, he has to move his hands. When he does, rush in or hit him. Every time. Over and over again. Don't stop. Understand that principle.

Hopefully you'll learn this in due time and won't be discouraged. It takes a little while. Once you start doing chi sau you will understand it better.

Tom
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[Chen Zen]

I have always progreessed fairly quickly and spar quite a bit so even with new concepts Iam fairly comfortable using them. I look forward to Chi Sao. Thank you all for the information.

[foolinthedeck]

i think it depends which centre you stick to.
when an attack comes, using footwork and pivoting allows you to use 'other centres', being on siulimtao only can give a student a mistaken idea of the full art.
so, if a hook come around to my right, and i stick to the centre in front of me - no good.
step right and take it on the outside + come to opponents centre is better, or step left and take on inside etc.
fitd

[Chen Zen]

Good point. I wish I would have thought about this earlier.

[taltos]

Hi Chen Zen...

This is not exact, but it's the best I can do in writing...

Stand in proper Yi Ji Kim Yeung Mah. Put your arms out in front of you, parallel to the ground. Put your palms together on your centerline. You've descibed a triangle from shoulder to shoulder to centerline infront of you.

That's your wedge.

As long as you are facing your opponent with proper root and structure and you own that wedge of space, you almost always have less distance to travel, and they have to go around.

Not perfect, but does that help?

-Levi

[Chen Zen]

Ok Thank you. I was confused by the mention of the wedge but I understand it now. I gotta say i love this site. Everyone has been respectful and very helpful thank you. Chen Zen

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
It seemed to me that Wing Chun was weak against attacks that didnt follow the centerline. Is this just in the beginning? I just started Sil Lum Doa so I am not an advanced Wing Chun artist but I am a skilled fighter. "Wing Chun was weak"??????? It's presumptuous of you to take on the role of Wing Chun representative, don't you think? As a beginner who can't even BEGIN to understand the notion of "centreline", until possibly after at least 5 years of training(and that's being generous), you really have no say in how Wing Chun is weak or strong, or is any one thing.

[taltos]

Chen Zen didn't say that WC was weak, but that it "seemed" weak.

There's a big difference there, and Chen Zen made the right call by stating it as an opinion. Opinions, as personal feelings usually based on personal experience, can't be right or wrong, they just are.

I'm sure no slight or harm was intented, and none was perceiced on my part.

-Levi

[tparkerkfo]

Hello Chen Zen,

I noticed your location says Memphis. I did some work out there several years ago and found one wing chun school which I attended a couple classes just to see what they were like. It was pretty cool. It was on the north side in a dance studio. They were from Francis Fong's line. Would this be the same school? If so, I have a question about a really cool drill the did.

Memphis is one of the few places I have been to that I miss. A great town!

Tom
________
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[Matrix]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
I have always progreessed fairly quickly and spar quite a bit so even with new concepts Iam fairly comfortable using them. I look forward to Chi Sao. Thank you all for the information. Sorry Chen Zen, I think you missed my point. I'm sure that you are a quick study, however, there is a lot of things that are unseen to you at this time. Do not overlook the subtleties. Sorry to sound like a bad fortune cookie, but enjoy the journey and look beyond the obvious - there is more to the journey than focusing strictly on the destination.

Matrix

[KenWingJitsu]

If you are not facing the opponent so that he cannot hit you while you own that wedge, You are not capitalizing on the position. That's why setting up and facing, before the engagement, is so crucial. If you can line up properly before he crosses the go point, you can start out with the shortest distance to target, because he will have to either challenge you head on (bad idea because you have structure and will be able to redirect) or go around (take the long route and give you more time).
Holy smokes. Taltos. Well put. Couldnt have said it better my d@amn self. Chen zen, make sure you understand that before going furhter.
Also, it IS good that you are willing to test your self out with sparring. The're's no better substiitute. Just make sure you round it out with proper POSITONING AND STRUCTURE PRACTICE. If he uses circular attacks, definitely tr ot beat him to the pnch, but keep your structur/wedge/guard in the right positon and it wiill be hard for him to get through. There are other ways to deal with circular atacks suck as turning to face them, but this requires more detail than you might be ready for right now. For now, keep it simple. Simultaneous attack & defense is your friend.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
I just started my Wing Chun training after years of other arts.

Welcome to the art. Hope you stick around long enough to learn it.


Eager to test what I had learned I went to a karateka friends house and we began sparring. It seemed to me that Wing Chun was weak against attacks that didnt follow the centerline. Is this just in the beginning?

No, it's just you. If you had to fight now, you'd be better off forgetting what you know of Wing Chun.


I just started Sil Lum Doa so I am not an advanced Wing Chun artist but I am a skilled fighter. What do you think? Was I applying it wrong or is it defecient? Thank you. Chen Zen
You don't need Wing Chun to fight, but if you want to fight with Wing Chun, it requires more time than you've given it. I can guarantee that if all you've learned is SNT, then you were not using Wing Chun when you "sparred."

Regards,

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Simultaneous attack & defense is your friend. Yes, just be sure that they don't both go forward at the same time.

[Matrix]

Don't you just hate it when that happens.... ;)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Grendel
You don't need Wing Chun to fight, but if you want to fight with Wing Chun, it requires more time than you've given it. I can guarantee that if all you've learned is SNT, then you were not using Wing Chun when you "sparred." Grendel, Well said. I'll warrant that guarantee as well.

Matrix

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Matrix


Originally posted by Matrix
Sorry Chen Zen, I think you missed my point. I'm sure that you are a quick study, however, there is a lot of things that are unseen to you at this time. Do not overlook the subtleties. Sorry to sound like a bad fortune cookie, but enjoy the journey and look beyond the obvious - there is more to the journey than focusing strictly on the destination.

Matrix

I was quite taken a back by the comment you were refering too. I thought it a bit arrogant that some one could suggest they could apply wing chun principles after a couple of months cause they were quick learners and used to sparring. I think those things will hinder your learning as one may be to tied to previous learnings to effectivly use wing chun, as the poster originaly suggested by his issues with winging attacks. Anyways, good points you made, and I couldn't agree more with what you said.

Tom
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[Matrix]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
I thought it a bit arrogant that some one could suggest they could apply wing chun principles after a couple of months cause they were quick learners and used to sparring. I think those things will hinder your learning as one may be to tied to previous learnings to effectivly use wing chun, as the poster originaly suggested by his issues with winging attacks. Tom,

Thanks. I don't consider Chen Zen's comments to be arrogant. I think he is taking his experience from previous arts and assuming that it applies equally to Wing Chun. I believe that to a large degree, you need to let go of previous belief systems that you've picked up from other arts. You must empty your cup or there is no room for for the new. I think it is a serious error in judgement and as you've pointed out, it will hinder learning beyond the most superficial concepts. I'll chalk it up to the exuberance of youth...........I remember it well. ;)

Matrix

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by Matrix
Tom,

Thanks. I don't consider Chen Zen's comments to be arrogant. I think he is taking his experience from previous arts and assuming that it applies equally to Wing Chun. I believe that to a large degree, you need to let go of previous belief systems that you've picked up from other arts. You must empty your cup or there is no room for for the new. I think it is a serious error in judgement and as you've pointed out, it will hinder learning beyond the most superficial concepts. I'll chalk it up to the exuberance of youth...........I remember it well. ;)

Matrix

What's your experience been like in letting go of previous arts you've studied? Biggest personal challenges? What sort of milestones are helping you realize that the "letting go" is taking place?

[UltimateFighter]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
Hello All. I just started my Wing Chun training after years of other arts. Eager to test what I had learned I went to a karateka friends house and we began sparring. It seemed to me that Wing Chun was weak against attacks that didnt follow the centerline. Is this just in the beginning? I just started Sil Lum Doa so I am not an advanced Wing Chun artist but I am a skilled fighter. What do you think? Was I applying it wrong or is it defecient? Thank you. Chen Zen

If you've just started training don't expect to have good results. Wing Chun is all about the footwork. You need to keep moving and strike once contact has been established.

[Chen Zen]

Thank you all. I realize that I do not have a full understanding of the art but I think I may progress along faster than most as I have been in love with kung fu and have studied many of its concepts for some time now. Now I am simply learning how to put the concepts into motion.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by burnsypoo
What's your experience been like in letting go of previous arts you've studied? Biggest personal challenges? What sort of milestones are helping you realize that the "letting go" is taking place? Great questions. It has been a tough road I would say, but getting somewhat easier with time. It's not trivial to over-write years of training and I'm not getting any younger. So many times I have thought that it would have been better to never have trained in anything else before. Entering the art with a completely empty cup, and starting much earlier with no "bad habits" to break.

Biggest Challenges? Learning to relax, really relax, and not depend so much on physical strength. Also, just letting things happen as opposed to having a preset series of techniques to use in a "what if" set of conditions. I am not a naturally gifted Martial Artist, not like some people I know, so every day is a challenge. But I'm fine with that. I just love to get out there and see what the day has to offer.

Milestones? Nothing that distinct. It's as if you just come to the realization that you are doing things without much effort when you used to struggle. Looking back you can see how far you've come. Looking forward, you see that there is so much further to go. :)

Thanks for asking,

Matrix

[tparkerkfo]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
Thank you all. I realize that I do not have a full understanding of the art but I think I may progress along faster than most as I have been in love with kung fu and have studied many of its concepts for some time now. Now I am simply learning how to put the concepts into motion.

Well, it is good to know the rest of us arn't in love with kung fu. LOL. This is part of the arrogance I was talking about earlier. Few have a full understanding of wing chun, which can only come after years of training with a really good teacher. Wing Chun is not like other arts and its concepts are quite unique in many ways. It takes a very long time to ingrain these training methods in my opinion. I don't mean to sound discouraging, but I don't think you can simply be in love with martial arts and "simply learn how to put the concepts into motions". And this shows with the intial comments. If it was so easy, more people would be doing it.

Just my thoughts
Tom
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[wingchunalex]

the centerline really works against everything. its really awsome. with looping attacks you face the attack with your centerline (with a few exceptions). but yeah, it just tacks some getting used to and figuring out how to really use it. but once you have it down its almost like holding up a shield.

[Chen Zen]

Why does a comment make you arrogant or immature. Just because I just started the physical aspect of wing chun does not mean that I dont know anything about it. I have studied philosophy and concept longer than most people have been practicing. I dont need people to tell me that you cant learn this or that this fast or apply it this quickly. BS. I can I will and unlees you know me and my background do not assume otherwise. Thank You.:mad:

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Chen Zen
Just because I just started the physical aspect of wing chun does not mean that I dont know anything about it. I have studied philosophy and concept longer than most people have been practicing. I dont need people to tell me that you cant learn this or that this fast or apply it this quickly. BS. I can I will and unlees you know me and my background do not assume otherwise. Thank You.:mad:
Most of us speaking from experience realize that we too started with the hope and expectation of learning Wing Chun fast, but because it is an internal art, and for most Westerners, especially men, involves unlearning a lifetime's habits, we find ourselves frustrated at each plateau of learning.

The difference between mediocrity, average ability, and true mastery is measured in millimeters and many intelligently spent hours.

Without knowing you, I can say that if you think what has been written doesn't apply, then from experience I can predict what success you will have in "learning" fast.

The secret of Wing Chun is hard work. Few find the right teacher. Few have what it takes.

Good luck to you though.

[tparkerkfo]

If you don't see the arogance in your posts, then I don't know what to tell you. Look up arogance in the dictionary and then reflect.

Hey, if you can it, great. More power to you. I would be truely impressed if you can just start learning wing chun and then apply it well.

But this leads me to ask why you asked the question you did to start the post off? Didn't you say you had a problem with cicular attacks? Didn't you have questions about the center line? Obviously you didn't study this concept as much as your telling us.

Wing Chun is not at all like other arts. You asked a question and the resonse was that it takes time to learn. Having experience in other arts does not translate to wing chun. Trust us. Many of us here have also studied other arts. You seem to think different. Fine. But you shouldn't get angry when you ask a question and people respond.

Tom
________
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[Chen Zen]

First off the question I posted was asking if there were techniques in Wing Chun that dealt specifically with circular attacks. I have no problem with people answering my posts but you have called me arrogant one to many times for me to bite my tongue as I did the last time. I am here to learn new information NOT to justify my ability especially to a total stranger. I KNOW what I can do whether or not you believe it or if is faster than you caught on. Just because it took you as long as it did doesnt mean that it will take me that long or even half that long. Its all relative to how you train, how long, and how hard and I train longer and harder than anyone I know. Its post like yours that made me leave the last forum I belonged to. Because people cant choose there words a little more effectively. You could have said "I dont think you are grasping the whole concept" instead of calling me arrogant. Instead of belittling me you could have made your point with offense to no one. I hope your Martial Skills aren't as sloppy and half assed as your reponses. -Chen Zen