Pushing hands information ?

[TzuChan]

Hey, I know I know it's normal that I can't push the others over quite yet, BUT I have this strange problem. If I do the pushing hands to someone who relaxes and goes with the flow, I still lose but I'm at least able to go down like a man =) But there is this fellow I pushed hands with today, who kept his arms stiff, so he moves along, but he was definatelly not relaxed, the thing is that I was not able to push him decently, cause I would have to press hard against his non-relaxed arms, which made it easy for him to pull me over. Same thing when I try to pull him over. I mean any reading on the internet about pushing hands is welcome, I know it takes practice, but I enjoy reading about this kind off stuff anyway. And if you might have a clue of what you would do about this thing, it's more then welcome :)

Thanks

[Ether]

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk

read the classics mate!

And a personal tip. People who use strength are the easiest to beat (unless they are HUGE obviously). Try riding with his attacks and pushing towards the source direction of that attack once he starts gathering himself for the next one. Stay low and relaxed. That's just about al there is to it ;)

[TzuChan]

no he doesn't really use force, so it's not like he's pushing me, so I could pull him, no, he is just really 'stiff', so all his muscles cramped togheter, as if I'm pushing hands with a tree .. really strange, as when I'm pushing hands with my teacher it's like pushing a snake =/

[taijiquan_student]

If his arms are really stiff, then maybe try split or a sharp pull-down to jolt him, then follow up with a push.

[Vapour]

Even though soft overcoming hard is what you aim for in pushhand, reality is that your prospect of winning pushhand sparing is determined by your strenght and your skill. If someone is bigger or stronger (or possibly more rooted), your taijiquan skill often collapse and you get pushed over.

Firstly, my advice is to avoid pushing with this guy so often. When lowgrade partner up with these type, it also cause them to tense up which is bad for longterm progress.

Secondly, if you do, acept being pushed (or invest in loss as CMC say). Instead of trying to push him which you say get countered easily, wait him to push you and see whether you can counter him. You probably can't if his push is powerful but when you learn to do it, you are really getting there, and it is going to be him asking what he is doing wrong. Think every pushhand sparing as learning process rather than a contest which you must win.

Thirdly, if someone is tense in pushing hand as you say he is, he is also dense as well. :) O.K. I'm guessing here but a reason he wait for you to push is because he know you can't push him over so he let you push and counter it for easy win. Often, if someone is aggresive, his push is also very predictable. I had one aggresive sparing partner in judo who used to throw me around a lot. I knew his judo wasn't good but because of that I was frustrated. I suddenly realised that he always use the same technique on me. (O.K., taking a while to figure that out means I'm dense as well.) He has quite powerful arm so when we are holding each other in judo's standing position, he suddenly violently push me one way then after I tense up to that direction, he sweep my leg from other direction. What I didn't realise was that when I tense my upper body, my body raise up a bit and I loose my root. After I realised his trick, I tried to maintain my posture when he push because I knew the sweep was coming. He couldn't throw me anymore. :)

Not that I figure the way to do taijiquan way of follow and couter for his sweep as his sweep is very fast. For that I actually have to let him sweep me while at the same time trying to maitain my posture as much as possible. Invest in Loss as CMC says.

[TzuChan]

Hey size doesn't matter in pushing hands, my teacher recently won a major tourney, and another dude in the top three was like 20 cm taller (at least on the fotos). So that's not the problem in pushing hands if you're good at it (which Im not). I'm guessing I just miss alot of experience, and since my arms are shorter, I have to use other strategies then him. It's up to me to find them out apparently :(

I did find out that I can beat him when I grab his arm (at a given moment) and pu**** to his opposide side, so grab left arm, and push it to the right, and then push to the back, and they fall over =) Once you get the arm to the right they're lost I think. But I can't do that same thing over and over

[TzuChan]

By the way, is there any way to practice your sensitivity on your own without a partner ? (at home)

[Vapour]

Originally posted by TzuChan
By the way, is there any way to practice your sensitivity on your own without a partner ? (at home)

Practice your form. Duh. :)

[TzuChan]

How does that help exactly ?

[Ether]

Sorry for butting in.

Form helps your pushing hands because it improves your balance, posture, timing, rooting etc. It also encourages total body co-ordination. If you dont have these things then your tai-chi will never be effective.
It might help to stop seeing pushing hands as seperate from form and both seperate from applications etc. They are really one and the same thing. They all use the same principles. Wudang Tai Chi Chuan is often said to have five 'seperate' training methods. Nei Kung, pushing hands, form, applications and weapons. However they are not really seperate at all. They train the same things, but in different ways.

Try to spot similarities between the body movements your teacher makes when pushing hands and the body movements that he (and you!) make when doing form.

[TzuChan]

Ok, I'll do my form over and over and over then =)
Ether, how long did it take you before you started doing those pushing hands tourneys ? Just wondering, I know it's different from person to person ..

[Ether]

I did my first pushing hands competition at the british open within a year of starting to learn tai-chi. I got beaten in the second round IIRC. Why? You wanting to start in competition already? Id say go for it. I enjoy competitions for the atmosphere and meeting like-minded people. Doesnt really matter if you win or not, although of course its nice to win ;) And its generally inspiring to see some people who really know what they are doing.

[Vapour]

This is repeating ether's point but firstly, in pushing pand, each player are constantly trying to find the opponent's weekness, that is the part of body which is not aligned and being relaxed properly. Now if you, yourself, are not relaxed and aligned, how do you expect to find your opponent weakness.

But in regard to sensitivity, in taijiquan, sensitivity is not about you having the hypersensitivity of Daredevil, rather it is to do with you being song (relaxed).

In taijiquan, being sensitive means you can follow your opponent. The ability to follow your opponent is directly related to your ability to be song. Moreover, if your arm is not relaxed, you tend to constantly push part of your arm into opponent's arm or body as if it is a blade, which send signal to your opponent what your intent are. So in taijiquan sence, you are less sensitive than your opponent.

I had a chat with a judoka who spar with very high grade judo players. He said that when he got into holding position with these highgrader, he hardly felt their arm flexing their muscle. But whenever he tries to do any throw or push, it was quickly blocked. Then suddenly the highgrader snap their wrists and bang, he was on the mat.

I also read somewhere about ancient Greek's Spartan quote. It was about this wresling instructor. He had one particular student who kept his wrist very rigid so instructor gave very nasty wrist lock. The kid couldn't use his wrist for few weeks but the lesson was well learned.

So when you practice sensitivity, concentrate on song (relaxation). You also mentioned that when you push the guy, you get easily pulled in. This is to do with you being overextended, that is when you push, your back leg is not relaxed so you tip your self over rather than sinking into your front leg.

What is great about pushing hand is that when you make particiular mistake repeatedly in pushing hand, that mistake can also be seen in your form performance.

I would imagine that when you perform your form, your back leg is not realxed and possibly shoulder is tensed up, arm held too high and elbow are not sunk. So you need to pay particular attention to that part of your body being song.

So practcing form let you fix your fault in your pushing hand and doing pushing hand improve your form performance. Hope this help.

[Vapour]

Hi ether, are you in Dan Doherty's school?

[dz]

Ask your teacher about Ting, Hua and Fa Jin. Also, ask him about the concept of Change (soft <-> hard). If you've done the Baishi, ask him about the Gyrating Arms exercise.

Also, if you have done the Baishi, get the Neikung going - IMHO the Neikung exercises is much more important than the form when it comes to developing rooting, softness, relaxation, stamina and power.

And yeah, you know this one already... practise, practise, practise - patience, patience, patience. ;)

[TzuChan]

Heh thanks guys ;)
And yeah Ether I'd like to start competing in it as soon as I can win from at least two people in my class :D I don't want to win the tourneys, I just wanne do as much pushing hands as I can, I simply love it. But it's kinda hard to find tourneys from pushing hands in belgium I think.

[Ether]

Originally posted by Vapour
Hi ether, are you in Dan Doherty's school?

Hi.

My teacher is Godfrey Dornelly, a long term student of Dan's. I did go to Dan for lessons for nearly a year but was also going to Godfrey at the same time (and previously).

Gofreys school is named 'Three Treasures Tai Chi Chuan'

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Ether


Hi.

My teacher is Godfrey Dornelly, a long term student of Dan's. I did go to Dan for lessons for nearly a year but was also going to Godfrey at the same time (and previously).

Gofreys school is named 'Three Treasures Tai Chi Chuan'

Great. My school is Zhong Ding. I think Wudan and Zhong Ding is the only schools in Manchester which has proper lineage.

[Vapour]

Tzu Chan.

btw, there was a advice by someone to watch your instructor's form. This depends on your style. For example, Sun style tend to have a very rigid outlook in the performance of the form. Once you have the position of arm and leg correctly, then you relax internally.

In other style of taijichuan like CMC, external outlook of the form look very different between student and instructor. For example, in single whip, the right hand make a hook shape. The idea in our style is to completly relax it. So the hand of advance student with better flexibility would look much more bent than the beginner. If beginner would try to copy the external shape, it would be considered as incorrect performance of the form even though external outlook is exactly the same. For similar reason, advance student in our style tend to have much higher hand position due to their ability to relax their shoulder.

So you should check with your instrucot whether how much you should copy your instructor's external look of the form.

[silfversurfer]

Hi,
Tzu Chan - if you're looking for a competent instructor & help with tui shou in belgium - go vistit:

http://gshop.8m.com/index.htm

All the Best!

Silfversurfer

[silfversurfer]

hmm...sorry - seems i recommended an unnecessary link. i guess you know him already ;)

S-surfer

[Ether]

btw, there was a advice by someone to watch your instructor's form. This depends on your style.
So you should check with your instrucot whether how much you should copy your instructor's external look of the form.

What I was specifically referring to was the rotation of the hips during pushing hands and the parallels with movements such as grasping the birds tail and exercises such as single hand pushing hands, when practised correctly. As im sure you will agree the type of movement is most usefull in fixed step pushing hands.

Ether

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Ether


What I was specifically referring to was the rotation of the hips during pushing hands and the parallels with movements such as grasping the birds tail and exercises such as single hand pushing hands, when practised correctly. As im sure you will agree the type of movement is most usefull in fixed step pushing hands.

Ether

i.c. no prob.

[TzuChan]

Originally posted by silfversurfer
hmm...sorry - seems i recommended an unnecessary link. i guess you know him already ;)

S-surfer

:D How did you find out it was not necessary ? =)

[HuangKaiVun]

TzuChan, keep in mind that the ultimate goal of doing Push Hands isn't to merely unbalance the opponent (at least as far as traditional combat Taiji goes).

The TRUE goal of doing Push hands is to work the combat techniques that you learned in the set on a resisting opponent without hurting him.

So in the scenario of a guy with overly stiff limbs, grab his limbs with your arms.

He'll likely grab your arms back, making it easy for you to knee or headbutt him if he doesn't get you first.

[TzuChan]

lol, it's in fixed position, you can lift your legs up, nor can you give headbutts =)

[Ether]

I think HuangKaiVun knows that mate ;)

What he's getting at is that pushing hands is training for close quarters grappling. Its real aim is to set you opponent up for a finishing technigue, whatever that may be. We only stop when the opponents balance is broken because its training and sometimes competition. When you have succeded in unbalancing someone and 'won' in pushing hands, try to think of an application that you could now use. rather thanjust pushing people try and set them up for a technique.

[TzuChan]

yeah baby, out of the 2000 tries today, I succeeded once to push someone over, I'm getting there!! :D :D :D

[Vapour]

Originally posted by TzuChan
yeah baby, out of the 2000 tries today, I succeeded once to push someone over, I'm getting there!! :D :D :D

Congratulation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Scythe]

With regards to your original comments about the stiff armed fella. When someone is stiff it allows for you to bounce off the force they are putting forward and either strike them or unbalance them.
You must not push your own force forward to do this or else he has the same opportunity to do it to you. You have to use what we call leverage which is basically when you put your intention forward (some would say extending your qi), this is done in the same way as you would point at something rather than tensing the muscle.
When you tense the muscle you give off dead force which can be used against you, when you use the leverage principle you are giving out a strong yet elastic like force which you can use to blend with or release the force given off from the other party. You cannot push hands in the normal way with someone who is really stiff as they are not using the same format this is when you just release the force back to them and break the contact.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Scythe
With regards to your original comments about the stiff armed fella. When someone is stiff it allows for you to bounce off the force they are putting forward and either strike them or unbalance them.
You must not push your own force forward to do this or else he has the same opportunity to do it to you. You have to use what we call leverage which is basically when you put your intention forward (some would say extending your qi), this is done in the same way as you would point at something rather than tensing the muscle.
When you tense the muscle you give off dead force which can be used against you, when you use the leverage principle you are giving out a strong yet elastic like force which you can use to blend with or release the force given off from the other party. You cannot push hands in the normal way with someone who is really stiff as they are not using the same format this is when you just release the force back to them and break the contact.

As far as links go I do not have a website of my own but a guy I know has and he practices along a similar line to us (same forms and principles etc)

so try taking a look at www.shizenryu.com

Saamchin is the bedrock form of the system and teaches all about leverage and changing corners etc

If you want anymore info you can post here or contact me at tuishoumaster@msn.com
In regard to Scythe's comment here is an quote from Cheng Man Ching.

"Do not ward off to the opponent's body means that you don't resist him. Your arm is where it is just so that you can use ting-jing and then it dissolves away. If, on the other hand, the opponent has attacked and failed and there is an opportunity you may use ward off to push the opponent away."

Btw, Scythe, I'm rather intrigued by shizenryu. The style seems to be combination of karate and taijiquan principles.

[Scythe]

.

[Vapour]

This topic in fact deserve new thread. Anyway, I wasn't aware that Shaolin had pushing hand. I have assumed that pushing hand has its origin in taijiquan.

Another thing. You are probably aware of my "Five Ancestor, origin of Karate" thread. I done bit more reading on sanchin. As far as my reading goes, all the advance katas of karate are manifestation of basic sanchin kata so through these kata practice, rather than learning more techniques, you are learning that sanchin kata is not techniques. Very similar to taijiquan ideal of "No shape, No form".

Another thing. I read somewhere that certain karate style practice particular type of sparing where you stand on pushing hand distance and you spar without moving your step but you do it in taijiquan speed.

Do you know anything about that?

[Laughing Cow]

Vapour.

I think most if not all the CMA got their own version of "Push hands".

Granted they might be called slightlu different (Rou shou, etc.)

Cheers.

[Spirit Writer]

OK. Here's you're problem: You're doing Taiji and most of it is full of crap. Now, before everyone jumps down my throat hear me out.

The problem you are having makes total sense and instead of mystifying it, try to objectify it.

A bigger guy is being "stiff" and you can't have your way with him. Well ... SURPRISE! That's what will happen in real life. A bigger guy (who do you think will attack U, Little Red Riding Hood) will use his supperior force to GET HIS WAY.

SO now what?

Well, stiff arms are not necessarily bad at one level. Keep your guard up and let the other move the entire you instead of being collapsed. That type of stiff is good. BUT, a bigger guy trying to collapse you and you use your power to not-be-collapased, that is against and "stiff" and futile.

The problem with a lot of taiji is that all they are looking for is SOFT. You need SOFT and HARD. The thing is changing from one to the other and how hard you can get and how long you can maintan that hard when delivering a blow.

You won't get the answer from books or a bullatin board. Train as often as you can and push hands with more experinced guys and find a teacher who has thrown down his day. The guy who is stiff is helping you. Lose! Lose all the time. Train your technique. In the future, when the guy is stiff against you this way -->, you will push him this way ^ ... or \ that way ... or / that way.

Do not be against the guy. But use power. Be hard, not stiff. And when you have to, roll an elbow over his stiff arms and plant it in his chest. That sort of thing.

[Laughing Cow]

Tzuchan.

Your opponent being stiff simply requires a different tactic.

Ok, so you can't push him over, how about enticing him towards a position which is advantageous to you?
i.e. let him push you a bit or similar.

Also agree with Spirit-writer that TJQ should contain both soft/hard, slow/fast, etc. this is the essence of TJQ.

In TJQ you should only apply as much power as is needed.
If 4 ounces are enough to move 1000 pounds, applying 100 pounds is not needed.
This takes listening and time to master.

Read the classics I am sure you will find some answers in them.

[TzuChan]

Originally posted by Spirit Writer
OK. Here's you're problem: You're doing Taiji and most of it is full of crap. Now, before everyone jumps down my throat hear me out.

The problem you are having makes total sense and instead of mystifying it, try to objectify it.

A bigger guy is being "stiff" and you can't have your way with him. Well ... SURPRISE! That's what will happen in real life. A bigger guy (who do you think will attack U, Little Red Riding Hood) will use his supperior force to GET HIS WAY.

SO now what?

Well, stiff arms are not necessarily bad at one level. Keep your guard up and let the other move the entire you instead of being collapsed. That type of stiff is good. BUT, a bigger guy trying to collapse you and you use your power to not-be-collapased, that is against and "stiff" and futile.

The problem with a lot of taiji is that all they are looking for is SOFT. You need SOFT and HARD. The thing is changing from one to the other and how hard you can get and how long you can maintan that hard when delivering a blow.

You won't get the answer from books or a bullatin board. Train as often as you can and push hands with more experinced guys and find a teacher who has thrown down his day. The guy who is stiff is helping you. Lose! Lose all the time. Train your technique. In the future, when the guy is stiff against you this way -->, you will push him this way ^ ... or \ that way ... or / that way.

Do not be against the guy. But use power. Be hard, not stiff. And when you have to, roll an elbow over his stiff arms and plant it in his chest. That sort of thing.


My teacher has often recalled me on the fact that you sometimes have to use force in pushing hands, but that doesn't mean it's brute force. And pushing hands is NOT something that you will use in real life, if I'm being robbed I'm not gonne stick my hands to the robber's hands, I'll just stick my fist to his chin or his nose =/ What is it with you people thinking Tai Chi isn't an effective art anyway ? My guess is that either you've been to a class once, that gave Tai Chi only for health purpose (which ain't Tai Chi IMHO), or you just hear what other dumb people say and follow their opinion ?

I think you got your tai Chi idea totally twisted there ... or I totally have the wrong idea of your post :D

[Spirit Writer]

My friend you came here asking for help, don't be upset if you hear something you weren't expecting. As for the trouble you are having, seems like you're in a stage of training where it would do you best to keep your mouth closed and in this case your eyes and mind open.

As for push hands, if you don't believe its useful in fighting, you still have a lot to learn. If you just "punch the guy in the jaw", well, you haven't controlled him and chances are you'll be getting cracked in the jaw, too.

He punches, jam that hand, expect the other to follow immdeiately. NOW, in that split second, you are hand to hand, sticking: solve the problem.

The other problem with Taiji, you have pushing hand, but where's the hitting hand? Most don't train the hitting hand so it becomes a game of rock back and forth and who can push harder. You need sticking hand, you need pushing hand, but that just clears the way for hitting hand.

I do not study Taiji so maybe disregard all of this, but I would bet my taiji is better than yours....

[Vapour]

Hmmm, i do judo so I do appreciate the advantage of power. Firstly, if your skill level is equal, bigger, more powerful and faster win. Conversely, if both of you are equal in size, power, and speed, the one most skilled win.

But to be honest, idea to divert force is important in any martial arts and taijiquan put particularly strong emphasis on that aspect. Two main move/principle/concept in taijiquan are Ward-Off and Roll-back. WardOff is mainly the concept to held/keep oponent away and RollBack is the concept of diverting opponent's force/body using turning of hip.

I do agree that doing soft martial arts is no excuse to not to be fit and strong. However, doing hard martial arts is no excuse to simply rely on brute force. If you do judo, especially ground work, every move has counter which has counter which in turn has counter. It is all about diverting opponent force from the right angle and knowing what to do.

On account of taijiquan not doing much punch. Idea is that we only use punch to strike soft part of the body such as abdominal and use palm to strike hard target. Most finishing move in taijiquan tend to be counter to strike which we attempt to lock and break.

Pushing hand is exercise in learning to counter the opponent's force. Once one learn that, we apply that principle into actual technique. So accusing taijiquan for not having striking practice in pushing hand is like accusing BJJ who specialised in ground work for not doing much practice in case of multiple opponent which totally negate the practice of ground work.

[TzuChan]

Originally posted by Spirit Writer
My friend you came here asking for help, don't be upset if you hear something you weren't expecting. As for the trouble you are having, seems like you're in a stage of training where it would do you best to keep your mouth closed and in this case your eyes and mind open.

As for push hands, if you don't believe its useful in fighting, you still have a lot to learn. If you just "punch the guy in the jaw", well, you haven't controlled him and chances are you'll be getting cracked in the jaw, too.

He punches, jam that hand, expect the other to follow immdeiately. NOW, in that split second, you are hand to hand, sticking: solve the problem.

The other problem with Taiji, you have pushing hand, but where's the hitting hand? Most don't train the hitting hand so it becomes a game of rock back and forth and who can push harder. You need sticking hand, you need pushing hand, but that just clears the way for hitting hand.

I do not study Taiji so maybe disregard all of this, but I would bet my taiji is better than yours....

That's being plain ridiculous =/ Why don't you take some lessons before you sell me your crap, 'my friend'. Christ, "most don't train the hitting hand" for crying outloud, take some lessons ! You do not study taiji, and I'm the one who has to stfu .. my friend. A student that doesn't speak up, is worth ****. The basic street fight requires no profound knowledge of pushing hands, do you really think that a guy just stretches his arms out for you ? or do they withdraw and hit ? Try fighting a sanshou game, without protection, with your sticking hands or whatever you like to call it. I give you 3 seconds before KO. The pushing hands develop your sensitivity, for sure, and for sure it will help when defending, but that sensitivity to make a push go nowhere, and make room for your punch, if that is what you call pushing hands, then please go take a look at a class, if I suck at pushing hands, and my sparring partner is waaay better at it, how come I can ward of his punches ? Oh dear lord ? He's a good pushing hands fellow, he should be able to feel what I'm doing and reward it back no ? Of course not. What you are referring too is a simple technique, not pushing hands. And if you punch a guy in the jaw, you will have all the time you need, to run away, my friend, or would you pin him down in the subway ? Being a sitting duck for the other dudes coming for your skin ? Now go ahead and accuse me of not knowing my style, the truth is, you don't know **** about wudang.

[Spirit Writer]

MY FRIEND, your stupidity reveals your very low level of martial arts -- for that I will forgive you and end with two things.

1) You don't know me, what I have studied, for how long, and in what situations I have applied it. Suggesting anything else is simply immature website bravado.

2) No one will give you their arm. That is not a stroke of genious there. But if you throw a right and I punch your right, will my hand not slip on top of below you? Won't you follow with the left? Can't I use my back hand to reach out and make contact there? If you did Wing Chun I'd say, couldn't I pac sau? But let's stick to YOUR art of Taiji. Think the opening move: the up down. Couldn't I hit you from below as you struck my face? COuldn't I close in and jam your follow up?

Doing that, we will have made contact at two points with our arms, thus sticking for that fraction of a second.

I will end this here, because you really are a low level parctitioner by your questions. And your cup, which is very small, is overflowing onto your feet and you'd rather walk around in wet socks than get a bigger cup. Not like you'd learn anything here anyway, but you certainly have a master's mind for someone who doesn't know a thing.

Be well my friend. Best of luck knocking guys out on the street with one quick unanswered blow to their jaw. You must be very fast and dangerous.

[Liokault]

Spirit Writer stop making an ass of your self.

1/ TzuChan is only young.

2/ TzuChan is from a god forsaken country.

3/ TzuChan has only been doing Tai Chi for about 2 months!!!

[TzuChan]

Originally posted by Spirit Writer
MY FRIEND, your stupidity reveals your very low level of martial arts -- for that I will forgive you and end with two things.

1) You don't know me, what I have studied, for how long, and in what situations I have applied it. Suggesting anything else is simply immature website bravado.

2) No one will give you their arm. That is not a stroke of genious there. But if you throw a right and I punch your right, will my hand not slip on top of below you? Won't you follow with the left? Can't I use my back hand to reach out and make contact there? If you did Wing Chun I'd say, couldn't I pac sau? But let's stick to YOUR art of Taiji. Think the opening move: the up down. Couldn't I hit you from below as you struck my face? COuldn't I close in and jam your follow up?

Doing that, we will have made contact at two points with our arms, thus sticking for that fraction of a second.

I will end this here, because you really are a low level parctitioner by your questions. And your cup, which is very small, is overflowing onto your feet and you'd rather walk around in wet socks than get a bigger cup. Not like you'd learn anything here anyway, but you certainly have a master's mind for someone who doesn't know a thing.

Be well my friend. Best of luck knocking guys out on the street with one quick unanswered blow to their jaw. You must be very fast and dangerous.

My friend, you keep referring to basic blocks/warding crap, I've been doing that since my first fight ever, when I was like 12 years old. And yes by the way you talk about a streetfight, I know for a fact, that you either keep getting your ass kicked, or that you simply never were in a serious one. Even when I practiced WT, not even having done Chi Sao, or when I was doing soccer, not having done a thing with my hands but throwing the ball, I did the techniques you describe above. And the little cup story, I'm guessing you're doing WC ;) I don't claim to know the art, I'm only saying, you know as much about what you're talking about, as what I know about rocket science. You talk about stupidity, I'm talking about ignorence.

[TzuChan]

Originally posted by Liokault
Spirit Writer stop making an ass of your self.

1/ TzuChan is only young.

2/ TzuChan is from a god forsaken country.

3/ TzuChan has only been doing Tai Chi for about 2 months!!!
My god forsaken country is among the top3 European countries when it comes to economical value ;)

[TzuChan]

To get back to the pushing hands, you say for a split second you touch eachother, you will apply pushing hands. There's a difference between what you do in a street fight, and what you do when playing pushing hands. To help you explain it, just take a lok at this thing : http://www.hyperdic.net/dic/r/reflex.shtml#n00652565

I hope you understand what I'm saying now.

[Laughing Cow]

TzuChan.

I think what Spirit Writer is trying to say is that after the few months that you had in TJQ you can't fully understand it yet.

I got 4+yrs in TJQ and am still discovering new things and how to apply the basics and principles.
I still consider myself a newcomer to the art and know that I have still limited knowledge.
Some of my fellow students after 8+ yrs feel the same.

Good Tui Shou takes a lot longer than a few months to master, and there are some that will never get it.

Tai Chi is Tai Chi, it shouldn't matter it is Yang, Chen, Wudang or whatever.
Those differences are largely cosmetic.

Just some thoughts.

[TzuChan]

Hey LC, of course I'm still a newbie in the art, I'm not saying I'm even good at it, I'm just explaining him that he's got it even more twisted then me =) Plus the 'my friend' crap just screams arrogance :D

[jon]

TzuChan

I dont want to argue but i did want to state a few things i thought you may find usefull. If they are not to your liking then just ignore them.

1) Lessons are often painfull and sometimes those who are actualy attempting to provide the most help can do so in ways you dont agree with.

2) Push hands is execpetionaly usefull for real fighting, it isnt real fighting per say but it is an excerlent subsitute when your learning. If it did not relate to fighting then it would not be found in such abundance in so many chinese *martial* arts.



In the begining just follow, let yourself get pushed around and pay carefull attension to how it feels to be off balance. What sorts of things cause you to lose your ground and what sorts of feelings on what parts of your body are negative.
Next work on how to dilute your opponents force by allowing your body to absorb the energy into your structure. When you can proparly absorb the energy, you are ready to learn to redirect it.



I got thrown around badly by a much larger and more experienced Wu style practioner for a couple of hours a while back. I came out of the experienced bruised battered and annoyed that i had let myself be tossed around so much and had kept comming back for more. He was hard and brutal and litteraly was trying to throw me into walls (we where in his appartment) and i just kept trying to stay soft and understand what was going on.

Needless to say it was a big assult on my ego and body, took me litteraly several days to recover.
Funny part is the experience seems to have improved my ability, im now having much less trouble understanding my centre and my ability to follow and stick has improved a *lot*.

As i said before sometimes the best lessons are also the hardest to sit though.
Spiritwriters post may have been a little bit sharp but he was trying to offer help in the end and in my experience as a practioner of Taijiquan his advice was basicaly rock solid.

Wanna know what this Wu style teacher said to me?
"you need to go back and start from the start"
Hard to hear when you know all the forms in your system and have been performing them in public for months.
He was of course dead right, so now im going back over everything again and again. I spent 2 hours yesterday working on how to simply walk proparly. My abilitys in balance have improved as well as the supleness of my lower back.

Just to compleate my story.
I was actualy *not* impressed with the attitude of this teacher although his skill was certainly formidable.
Still just becouse i didnt immediately get along with him did not mean that he was wrong about everything he said.

[brassmonkey]

Tzu keep those posts coming I like reading about what your learning, sounds good.

You should really ask your teacher but for entertainment here's my experience against people who are tense:

Usually they'll inch into you like a battering ram and are stiff all over thus making it difficult to yield to 1 and 2 " movements and take them off. Since they arent soft and arent spiralling or use internal movement between steps they'll be stiff there also. The way they are playing can't be used in a real fight. However if you wanna win wait for them to step and try to use something like preparation for single whip to take them off theyre base unless you can feel where they are weakest then go that way. Keep in mind they'll wanna win and use every muscle they can to resist you'll have to be continuous. This in my experience will help you win by offbalancing them but does little to help your tai chi skill.

[TzuChan]

yeah, that's what I'm doing basically, I just need waaaaay more practice I guess =] But with the stiff person, he's taller then men, so his arms are a little longer, not that it makes a big difference, but for me it makes it a little harder atm. And he pulls my arms all the times, so he keeps his arms stiff, then I try to push him, but he grabs me of course, and pulls me all the way into my unbalance, he does it every single time I noticed last lesson.

And jon I agree with 1) and 2), just read my posts again, you'll see that's what I'm saying.

[Liokault]

Jon




If it did not relate to fighting then it would not be found in such abundance in so many chinese *martial* arts.

LOL thats a whole new thread.

as soon as i read that i thought.

1/ Almost universal belife that cultivating Chi will help u fight better/live longer.

2/ Doing countless forms.

3/ Almost universal belife that your moves are to deadly to actualy practice in any real way.


I think you could build a whole *martial art* from techniques and exersizes found in at least 70 % of chinese martial arts and still not be able to fight.

[TzuChan]

Lol, so true :)