pivot weighting

[foolinthedeck]

(hi this is my first post.
a little info on me: wing chun since i was 16, which is 9 years of on and off training, emphasis on chi sau and tradition, main sifu - Michael Tse in England.)

pivot weighting.

a fellow student at a class i attend was telling me how i should distribute my weight while pivoting and punching forwards. Basicly he said that all my weight should be on the pivoting leg, 100% weight, so that i could lift up my other leg without moving my body at all.
In my opinion this is wrong.
IMO, the weighting should be 60-70% on pivot leg, my rationale being that if the weight is 100% then i will be in danger of being pushed or pulled off balance - especially if i am lifting my leg to kick!! The only draw back to being 70%, is that yes, i may telegraph a kick slightly, but i would say that this is better since i can react to any change with sensitivity, step/move/strike etc, and not rely on the one kick.

i'd welcome any thoughts u would have on the matter of weighting.

NB, the guy who told me resents me.

[reneritchie]

I learned 100/0 and am very stable in that weighting *when done under the proper conditions*. Everything is contextural. If your positioning is right, no one should be able to push or pull you because they'll be trying to push or pull you into the ground (your legs adduct and internally rotate, making a very strong pyramid structure from certain angles).

In order to be able to do this, however, you need to train the heck out of it. Rep after rep after rep until your legs get used the alignment and can do it as naturally as walking.

Note, many others do use 70/30 or even 50/50, but it is part of their own, different, overall approach and if you're not an expert in the method as a whole, mixing and matching is a good way to get a shoddy patchwork of an approach.

Also remember, you already have 50/50 in when you don't turn, so 100/0 lets you train the opposite of that, and if you can "get" it, you should have no trouble with anything in between. If you train for less, however, you may have trouble if you ever need more.

[anerlich]

NB, the guy who told me resents me.

If I gave you advice and you posted on an internet forum that you thought it was crap, I'd probably resent you too.

Of course he may just be jealous of your obvious wisdom and attractiveness to the ladies. BTW, does this have anything to do with the veracity of the advice? And why would we (or you) care what his opinion of you might be?

My lineage does more equal weighting. There are arguments both ways. Follow your Sifu's instruction and come to your own conclusions.

[foolinthedeck]

anerlich you're right of course. i muddied my own pool there, but anyway thanks for the comments.
reneritchie said

"If your positioning is right, no one should be able to push or pull you because they'll be trying to push or pull you into the ground (your legs adduct and internally rotate, making a very strong pyramid structure from certain angles)."

i'd just love to stick hands with you, all my learning is from pathein not mathein and though i hear you, i'd need to feel it.

any other thoughts?

[foolinthedeck]

anerlich you're right of course. i muddied my own pool there, but anyway thanks for the comments.
reneritchie said

"If your positioning is right, no one should be able to push or pull you because they'll be trying to push or pull you into the ground (your legs adduct and internally rotate, making a very strong pyramid structure from certain angles)."

i'd just love to stick hands with you, all my learning is from pathein not mathein and though i hear you, i'd need to feel it.

any other thoughts?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by anerlich
There are arguments both ways. Follow your Sifu's instruction and come to your own conclusions. Ding.Ding. (sound of nail being hit directly on the head). IOW, great advice.

Matrix

[EnterTheWhip]

The common Wing chun mentality is to not do certain things because it is too risky.

Cover all angles. Develop 100/0 balance. Develop balance with both feet together. Every ratio in between will be easy.

[foolinthedeck]

on subsequent training:
i have found that using 100% in pivot weighting gives much more power to a punch, and feels alot like one of Erle Montague's punchs (never felt one but seen from his videos) he says stuff about the body squeezing into the ground like a coiled rope..
certainly i agree with the above that you should try and cover all the angles, train all weightings rather than sticking to one.

however,

Cover all angles. Develop 100/0 balance. Develop balance with both feet together. Every ratio in between will be easy.

how will everything in between be easy if you only train 100%. isnt this akin to saying train at full speed and you can always use half speed easily? i'd still rather chi sau with you to feel the answers but i enjoy this discussion

[stuartm]

Hi All,

Foolin -

a few points for you . As you may know i used to practice Erles system under Sifu Hart, and yes to some extent you are right, although the coiling motion comes form spine to create the 'Fa Jing' that Erle is famous for. There is a lot more to it, including the use of the dan tian to focus and deliver energy. Thi stakes a great deal of time to perfect, and i certainly never did over a period of a number of years. In my opinion, this is not suitable for wing chun.

As for the Juen Ma (turning stance), I would never advocate 100% of your weight on the grounded leg. This is fine, as long as you dont have to step immediately afterwards. 70% is more than enough. It also depends on your position at the time. When using Biu Ma in a chasing position i would tend to be more 50/50, if i was retreating, i would go back to 70/30, as when you are retreating you are normally receiving force rather than delivering it.

Just an opinion!

Best wishes, Stuart

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
how will everything in between be easy if you only train 100%. Developing balance with both feet together I would consider to be the opposite to 100/0 or 0/100.

[reneritchie]

What's the reason for training 100/0 anyway...?

[OdderMensch]

Well, we train to use the 0/100 stance as a 'hal ma' or forward stance, also we learn to 'drag' the rear foot to advance with 'toe ma' or 'bui ma' stepping.

In the 'chor ma' or 'sitting horse' we use an 80/20, and in the YKMY of course its 50/50.

As ETW said, it does train you to have differnt weights on different feet for different reasons. If I am actively chaseing or advanceing on someone, and their defense doesn't neccesitate my angleing, i'll have 100% of my weight on the rear leg, so that I can engage three weaons in the fight. also I am taught that haveing 0 weight on the front leg makes the front kne less vunarable, and allows it to respond more rabidly to changeing conditions.

edited to add, oh yeah, there is a 100/0 weight in the 'lao ma' stance, ive used that to power armbreaks and preform sudden movements agound a target, its weird, but its in the dummy.

[EnterTheWhip]

What about 4 weapons, perhaps 5... even 6. Why stop there? Which weight distribution will give you those options?

[S.Teebas]

What's the reason for training 100/0 anyway...?

Striking

[OdderMensch]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
What about 4 weapons, perhaps 5... even 6. Why stop there?

6 weapons?:eek: well, I'm young yet, and early in my training, I'm very happy if I can engage three targets at once.

We have been working of late on hitting with power during the entire change from 100 % on one foot to 100% on the other.

[reneritchie]

OdderMensch - That's interesting. In Sum Nung WCK, we spend a lot of effort developing the 100/0, but we almost never stand with one leg forward, it's only a transition and application for us.

Anyway, I was really asking about core skill training. What does 100/0 give you in terms of core skill?

[foolinthedeck]

you kinda lost me with all the 4 weapons etc stuff.
but still thanks all for all the opinions!
could you go into some more detail about the weighting, how do you train it? just by pivoting and using it or by specific drills?
how different is it to the weighting for chi gerk?
has anyone who is a 100/0 sticker done chi sau with a 50/50 or 70/30 - how did it feel to both? who 'won'?