tang sau elbow

[foolinthedeck]

/@
on the subject of tang:
when training tang in siu lim tao would you bring it (the elbow)right in to center line the same as fuk sau or keep it in line with the shoulder?

i always trained it in, to build strength in elbow, get used to the extreme centre - not to use it that way always in chi sau, but be able to bring it in. my current sifu explained that with it right in i can be pushed back - i can, while having it in line more with the shoulder means i cant.

notably, pics i have seen of yip chun show his elbow not in extreme centre, even though he is slight.

related to this question: people with big pec muscles cant get the elbow right in, how much of a disadvantage is this for them? normally in chi sau i can hit them down the centre v easily, but my sifu's comment suggested that it should not matter.

regards to all
/@

[reneritchie]

I learned it not on the center but along the center (the center would run along the inside of the arm). I also learned one that is along the shoulder line, but still straight (both wrist and elbow on shoulder line) for different situations.

Some people don't have the flexibility to bring the elbow onto the center, and so their elbow is further out. Others, rather than the "hammer and nail" model this exemplifies, prefer the wedge model of elbow on mid clavicular (creating an angle from shoulder, through mid clavicular, to center).

As with most things, the system as a whole should support whichever version you're doing, enhancing its advantages and minimizing it's disadvantages (everything has risk/reward, or opportunity cost so to speak - and if someone tells you otherwise, well, don't buy a bridge from them...) If you learn your system, step by step as a whole, you should have a solid foundation and understand everything within its context, then you'll be able to explore alternatives in case they suit your individual physiology or personality better.

[taltos]

I've trained the exact middle of the two.

If I have my elbow on the center, I've found that it can be easily jammed and manipulated, and if it's on the shoulder line I have to use muscle to hold it when it's challenged.

When it's halfway between the two, it lines up with the middle of my pelvis, and seems to function more like the bow of a boat, actually dispersing the energy thrown at it, while allowing me to flow forward.

That's been my experience anyway. Anyone else?

-Levi

[KPM]

I agree with Levi, and subscribe to the "wedge" approach that Rene mentions. I also apply a variation of the tan that is directly in front of the shoulder that Rene also mentions. I practice it as part of the Chum Kiu form.

Keith

[reneritchie]

Like I mentioned, "better" is an illusion. If it's properly placed on the center, it can't be jammed because it will follow the line from elbow center to shoulder and disperse outward under that kind of pressure. The drawback is that it's very difficult to get right, and if you don't get it right, you can jam it, and you can also expose opponening from mid-clavicular to shoulder if you don't know the adjustments.

The shoulder line won't need muscle if used in the proper context, if its requiring muscle, it's probably being used out of context and you should switch to a different alignment.

On the mid-clavicular is very powerful, and has a great wedging effect, but if someone can actually do the "along center" version, they can cut through it if you don't know how to adapt, or collapse it if they have better command of the angles.

*Everything* is risk reward. Know a movement, know its strong points and weak points, and be able to change to keep the former and remove the latter, and IMHO, you have the "better".

[t_niehoff]

taltos writes:

. . . I have to use muscle to hold it when it's challenged. T


ReneRitchie responded:

The shoulder line won't need muscle if used in the proper context, if its requiring muscle, it's probably being used out of context and you should switch to a different alignment. RR

While I agree that it is essential that we have the ability to "hold" (i.e., receive) pressure, including with our tan sao, IMO if tries to do that with "muscle" instead of body-structure, then we have self-limited our method -- it will work against only those persons that are close to or below our (muscular) strength level. When we do feel our "muscle" kick in (and this pertains to all those persons with sore shoulders), it suggests either (as Rene pointed out) that we may be doing the "wrong" thing (using tan sao when we should be changing) or that we need to spend more time developing our body-structure (including being able to "ground" incoming pressure and use "Earth power"instead of muscle). And that doesn't even take into account the weaknesses (opportunities you give an opponent) when you use muscle. TN

*Everything* is risk reward. Know a movement, know its strong points and weak points, and be able to change to keep the former and remove the latter, and IMHO, you have the "better". RR

This is IMHO one of the most important (and overlooked) nuggets in WCK -- that there is no "right way" or "superior way" (as these assume that all situations/conditions are the same)' only the "best way in that moment". The greater our understanding and flexibility in application, like using a tool -- which implies knowing the strengths and weaknesses of the different ways of doing things, and thus can identify those situations when A works better than B -- the greater our chances of success. TN

Terence

[Matrix]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
This is IMHO one of the most important (and overlooked) nuggets in WCK -- that there is no "right way" or "superior way" (as these assume that all situations/conditions are the same)' only the "best way in that moment". Once again, great advice from Terence and Rene. I would only add that there is a "best way for the individual". Differences in flexibilty and bio-mechanics means you need to find your own "best way" within the context of the Wing Chun system.

Matrix

[burnsypoo]

Originally posted by Matrix
Once again, great advice from Terence and Rene. I would only add that there is a "best way for the individual". Differences in flexibilty and bio-mechanics means you need to find your own "best way" within the context of the Wing Chun system.

Matrix

what is the role of flexibility in wing chun? or, the pursuit of?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by burnsypoo
what is the role of flexibility in wing chun? or, the pursuit of? From my POV, felxibility is valuable from both a relaxation and a range of motion perspective. Tight muscles limit speed, power and range. Having said this, we all have personal limits that may restrict our abililty to some degree.

Within the context of this discussion, my point is that while I am not personally very flexibile, I will not compromise my overall structure to try and get my elbow "on the centerline". I will work within my own physical limts, which is a pretty narrow range I must admit, expanding that flexibilty and range over time with practice.

Matrix

[EnterTheWhip]

Elbow on the centreline is impossible for many - as well as restrictive, compromising, and weak. Sure, flexibility is a major issue when trying to achieve it. The primary issue is whether elbow on centre should be the goal at all. When something is right there usually is little issue of flexibility and physical "can nots".

[reneritchie]

Matrix - Part of the Lien Gung (Training Work) brilliantly fused with the development of offense and defense in Siu Lien Tao is flexibility. The whole form build very specific types, as well as strength through the joints.

EtW - Our ancestors worked hard to achieve their skills, be it Mai Jarn or the results of the 100/0 weighting. They worked for hours a day, every day. Not because it was easy, but because they saw advantage to the results. Those who couldn't achieve an "ideal" adapted strategies to minimize its impact, but they didn't dismiss it.

[EnterTheWhip]

I'm not sure how your reply relates to my statement. I think you may have missed my point.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by reneritchie
Matrix - Part of the Lien Gung (Training Work) brilliantly fused with the development of offense and defense in Siu Lien Tao is flexibility. The whole form build very specific types, as well as strength through the joints. Rene, I couldn't agree more. Simple, effective, brilliant. What more is there to say? :)


Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
[QUOTE]Elbow on the centreline is impossible for many - as well as restrictive, compromising, and weak. It is impossible for me, but as you say it is really not a requirement. My experience has been that trying to put my elbow on the centerline puts me in an unnatural and weaker position.

Matrix

[foolinthedeck]

i suppose i should have given some more input at the start of the thread, in terms of flexibility all over i cannot come close to touching my toes, but with my elbows i can touch left and right together in tang and push out about 12 inches without compromising structure or relaxation. i'm very slim, and no pecs lets me do this. obviously the ability for me to do this is different from the question of whether it should be a training aim.
/@

[EnterTheWhip]

Originally posted by Matrix
My experience has been that trying to put my elbow on the centerline puts me in an unnatural and weaker position. But they keep telling you to do it, don't they?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by EnterTheWhip
But they keep telling you to do it, don't they? No, they don't. It is just my effort to over-compensate for my own bad structure. When I was in the artillery, we called it bracketing. You fire a shot short of the target, then a little long, making minor adjustments until you're right on the money. I'm beginning to zero in on the ideal spot for me.

Matrix

[EnterTheWhip]

Playing with the angle of your tan sau palm should help you figure out the proper elbow positions.

[Matrix]

Will do, thanks.

Matrix