Respect /@

[foolinthedeck]

on the subject of showing respect:

many schools show respect to others with the bow and palm over fist:
/@

but i always find people do it and show me no real respect. how should i show respect for my teachers and fellow students.
i will call my teacher sifu, but is sihing = fellow?
what about elder brother and elder uncle?

is there a word or phrase in cantonese akin to gung hei fat choi that signifies a wish for health and wisdom in the opponent?

i find alot of peoples aim in chi sau is to hit me, to hurt me, to attack me, whereas mine is to share, to experience, to teach if possible and always to learn.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Foolinthedeck,

Respect is in interesting topic. The first thing I would say is to do as you mom taught you. Then do as you learned in Kindegarden or firstgrade. I am assuming you have something akin to that in Wales.

I don't think you have to follow chinese customs as much. If your not chinese and your teacher is not, then there is little point unless your going the traditional route, which is fine. Your teacher should be able to fill you in on these things. No point calling your class mates sihing if they don't use similar terms themselves, they may not understand what it means and they may even punch you. LOL.

Wing Chun typically dispenses with many of the traditional curtousy things that aare found in many other Kung Fu schools. Some have added them in. You can bow when you enter class as well as bowing to your sifu (teacher) with the hand covered fist. I am not aware of any special greeting terms in cantonese. If your doing it to people that don't speak the language, don't worry about it. If your doing it to a person that speaks the language, ask them!

Wing Chun is about hitting people, atleast to a certain extent. You shouldn't feel that it is a lack of respect. Most wing chun people train hard and are not concerned with disrespecting people. You can't get to far if you respect your opponent enough not to hit him. LOL. But of course there should be learning. You should be mixing it up, some hitting, and some learning.

I hope this helps a bit.
Tom
________
Lesbian Porn (http://www.****tube.com/categories/26/lesbian/videos/1)

[yuanfen]

You have many postss and on different threads. Rather than chasing your posts all over the place- i share some opinions
FWIW-you dont have to accept them. There are lots of opinions on lists.
1. sihing is elder brother- carried over to relationships in the art-
someone who started earlier in the art.

2. Folks who only concentrate on hitting in chi sao- by pass learning a lot of wing chun- and become stagnant in their wing chun devlopment. Learning how to roll and control in chi sao is important.

3. If you stick to wing chun - you can adapt it for stickfighting.

4. "weighting" when turning/pivoting is full of controversy in wing chun. FWIW my bros and I stand and turn with roughly 50-50 weighting and can kick with either foot.
Not the only way to do it- works fine with us 50/50 folks just as well.

5. As far as someone not liking you and criticizing what you do.
Separate the guy from his advice. Weigh the advice- ignore the guy. Lots of fools in this world.

6. Where the elbow is in appearnce in tan sao is less important than controlling the line with your tan sao.

7. In sil lim tao you learn the specs for your center line- between you and your shadow or mirror image. Then you adjust and apply with the centerline between you and a real person. Chum kiu and chi sao helps with the applications of the sil lim tao
principles.

I hope this helps. Cheers.

Joy Chaudhuri
www.azwingchun.com

[taltos]

Hi foolinthedeck,

Chinese Terms for family that we use in our school include (spelling to indicate pronunciation only)...

"Si" in all of these means "teacher," and the other is the familial term...

Sifu = father
Simo = mother
Sigung = grandfather
Sitai = grandmother
Sitaigung = great-grandfather
Sihing = elder brother
Sijay = elder sister
Sidai = younger brother
Simui = younger sister
Sisuk = younger uncle (by younger I mean your Sifu's younger sibling)
Sibak = elder uncle (by elder I mean your Sifu's elder sibling)

As far as I know, sisuk and sibak both refer to males and females (but I could be wrong).

We also use todai (students) and sihingdai (siblings) as in "When you practice with your sihingdai..."

Hope that helps! Welcome aboard!

-Levi

[foolinthedeck]

thanks for your replies.
taltos - to the point, thanks.
yuanfen - excellent advise.
tparkerkfo - i disagree with you but thanks for your opinions!

tparkerkfo said

"Respect is in interesting topic. The first thing I would say is to do as you mom taught you. Then do as you learned in Kindegarden or firstgrade. I am assuming you have something akin to that in Wales"

i dont have a problem with showing others respect in class, though i admit i am arrogant. thanks for your respectful comments here.

"Wing Chun is about hitting people, atleast to a certain extent. You shouldn't feel that it is a lack of respect. Most wing chun people train hard and are not concerned with disrespecting people. You can't get to far if you respect your opponent enough not to hit him. LOL. But of course there should be learning. You should be mixing it up, some hitting, and some learning"

i should have made more clear what i meant about people who's only aim is to hit others - they do it not when there is a clear opening, they do it using strength speed and normally pak sau's and think it is ok. this is not acceptable in respectful chi sau. asking such people why their motivation is so selfish doesnt help, if it was up to me i just wouldnt roll with them, but in a class u must.

[dbulmer]

Foolinthedesk,

Don't let it bother you -people react in different ways and you simply have to deal with it. Perhaps now and then those hitting you can be reminded that you can hit too. Personally I favour your approach.

Actually I find the Chinese etiquette ridiculous at times. I am married to a Chinese girl (My wife would say why pretend to be Chinese)- a boyo is a boyo at the end of the day :)

Respect I think comes from going to class, listening to your teacher, paying your dues - getting hit, hitting, looking at the bruises, feeling 100% useless coz your technique was bad and then going back the next day, week whatever to repeat the process.

[tparkerkfo]

Hi fooling the deck,

Don't agree with me? That's OK, your not the first. LOL.

I come from the perception that respect is earned, and in wing chun, it is earned with the hands. There is no respect in Chi Sau. Chi Sau is just a tool and is removed from respect. The guys you mentioned don't sound disrespectful, but rather like they have the wrong mentaility for chi sau. In either case I would not care to much about it. If your doing chi sau correctly, you can learned from either type. I think Joy nailed it when he offered his advice on how chi sau should be done. It is a systematic approach to help you learn to deal with energy. However that is boring to many people and they prefer to hit. That is fine becuase you should still be able to use GOOD chi sau skills against them.

Personally I would avoid these guys as much as possible, but I wouldn't completly ignore them. As they will offer good tests to your wing chun. But I would seek out others that can offer you a better learning environment. If they all seem to do it this way, I would ask the teacher privately about the role of chi sau and why the students don't seem to be doing it right.

But again, I think the respect is a different issue all together.

Tom
________
Fisting fat (http://www.****tube.com/categories/567/fat/videos/1)

[Matrix]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
but i always find people do it and show me no real respect. how should i show respect for my teachers and fellow students.
There are trappings of respect, and real respect. How does this lack of respect manifest itself?

Now you say you are arrogant. Maybe this is the reflection of your own attitude. I don't know, I'm just guessing. Respect is often a two way street, the more you give the more you tend to get. Just a thought.

Matrix

[foolinthedeck]

thanks tom (tparkertfo)
i agree with you (lol)
its not something which bothers me overly, this whole respect question, i'm just interested to hear all your views. i certainly feel that chi sau should be for learning about energy, and i will speak to sifu if i get a chance.

to continue the thread some:
what are your thoughts on uniforms?
i always detested the belt gradings of other styles, what are your thoughts on all students of a given school wearing the same t shirt? at my school, everyone does but me so am i showing disrespect? the fact is that i dont own the t shirt as yet, but even if i did i wouldnt wear it, i just hate conforming by appearances...

maybe i'll jsut get one and tie dye it. creative or disrespectful?

[S.Teebas]

As yuanfen said learning to control is important, which needs co-operative partneres when learning. If the guys going full out and you can handle him ...no worries! But if you cant u need to build up to that and ur training partneres need to recignice this and we all need to help each other. Theres a difference between training and testing.

[Grendel]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
thanks tom (tparkertfo)
i agree with you (lol)
its not something which bothers me overly, this whole respect question, i'm just interested to hear all your views. i certainly feel that chi sau should be for learning about energy, and i will speak to sifu if i get a chance.

Everything Yuanfen wrote is correct and it is generous of him to share his authoritative perspective.

On learning where the centerline is, put a line of tape down the center of full-length mirror and practice Sil Nim Tao with an awareness of your center relative to your reflection.


to continue the thread some:
what are your thoughts on uniforms?

Uniforms are unnecessary in Wing Chun. None are required where I study from a HK Chinese instructor. As for T-shirts, if they are not required, I think they add to general good feelings about the school. If you have a Chinese instructor, try learning Cantonese to show respect for him and his origins.


i always detested the belt gradings of other styles, what are your thoughts on all students of a given school wearing the same t shirt? at my school, everyone does but me so am i showing disrespect? the fact is that i dont own the t shirt as yet, but even if i did i wouldnt wear it, i just hate conforming by appearances...

Studying a TCMA requires a degree of conformity to certain things. Conformity of appearance is not one of them. Although it helps if you look Chinese. Not that you have to be Chinese; just look it. :p


maybe i'll jsut get one and tie dye it. creative or disrespectful?
That's funny. That's what I do. :D My intent was to have fun with it.

Regards,

[David Jamieson]

i just hate conforming by appearances...

ftd, you are missing a point here in regards to uniformity used in the boundaries of training in an atmosphere such as you will find in a martial arts school.

the uniform idea is to quell the ego by making everyone the same.

you are all brothers and sisters in the kungfu family that is your school. when you leave, you leave, but while you're there, you're there.

to not support your school while taking teachings from it is disrespectful.

if you can get past yourself in the method, then believe it or not you are 80% there and the rest is lessons from the teacher.

The biggest lesson in any martial art training is that we are frail. Recognize that you are lowly and you can move ahead.

Think and act like you are the cat's pajamas, you will be challenged and you will not be respected for your arrogance. You may even get your butt handed to you a few times before you learn the lesson of humility and how humble equals power in kungfu and in real life.

nobody likes a blowhard and nobody respects arrogance.

keep whittling away at yourself and perhaps the bow will be more than an empty symbol for you.

cheers

[anerlich]

"what are your thoughts on uniforms?
i always detested the belt gradings of other styles, what are your thoughts on all students of a given school wearing the same t shirt? at my school, everyone does but me so am i showing disrespect? the fact is that i dont own the t shirt as yet, but even if i did i wouldnt wear it, i just hate conforming by appearances..."

Kung Lek is correct.

Why do you detest belt gradings? The WC and BJJ organisations I belong to both have them. Many people thrive under the goal-oriented regimen they provide. In a large school with multiple branches they provide instructors with a means of guaging a student's ability and where they fit into the curriculum. In all other areas of life where more than about ten people are involved, some form of organisation is essential.

Uniforms give a professional school an appearance of formality rather than supposedly creative chaos. They also help to remove the ego so one can concentrate on the training. Some, like the judo or jiu jitsu gi, have sound practical bases.

If you have a problem wearing uniforms and the school expects you to wear one, then don't go to the school. Making some ****ant statement of rebellion like this is idiotic in the context of an MA school. Unless there are other things going on beside the uniform, the problem is with you, not the school.

"maybe i'll jsut get one and tie dye it. creative or disrespectful?"

Tie dyeing would be unoriginal, extremely disrespectful in the context you are describing, and an egregious fashion crime. The sixties are dead and deservedly so.

Sometimes it is better for all, including you, if one conforms. If you feel changing your appearance changes you, you have a weak self image. Be strong enough that you can afford to do as the Romans do.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
i always detested the belt gradings of other styles, what are your thoughts on all students of a given school wearing the same t shirt? at my school, everyone does but me so am i showing disrespect? the fact is that i dont own the t shirt as yet, but even if i did i wouldnt wear it, i just hate conforming by appearances...

maybe i'll jsut get one and tie dye it. creative or disrespectful? It's often called passive-aggressive behaviour. You say you hate to conform, and detest the gradings. To quote Hermann Hesse " If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves, does not disturb us." Your behaviour shows disrespect, no doubt. I wonder if it extends beyond your apparel and into your demeanor? People give off vibes, that while they may not be explicitly expressed in words, speak volumes. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your position, if so, please accept my apologies. However, from here things don't look very good.

Peace,

Matrix

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Andrew,

I am not arguing with you, but just pointing out other ideas and opinions. I have no real love or hate relationship with uniforms or belt structure. They both have a purpose.

I have studied a little Kenpo which had belts and uniforms. I now currently study Hung Gar which has uniform but no belt. I am trying to stay with my wing chun which has no uniforms and no belts.

I like the freedom of not having uniforms becuase it nice to beable to go to school in what ever. Uniforms can be expensive and require more effort to keep clean because typical people only have a few. Sweats often are 1/3 less or more. Heck, I have been known to show up to wing chun practice in work cloths.

The down side is that it is unprofessional and people sometimes have weird ideas of workout clothes. LOL Our Hung Gar school has a simple uniform, mostly color cordinated rather and material or style specific. I think it does add to the professional quality.

Belts are a bit more of an issue. I agree that it works great for many people. My Hung Gar school is debating on using them. Tradition in our school is to have a black belt from day one. This belts purpose is to hold up the pants that are rather large. Some people wear red belts and others wear none.

The only problem with belts is that it becomes a focus point. Some people start focusing on the belt and promotion rather than learning. This was very common in Kenpo. People typically are not concerned with learning the techniques, but on passing the test. My thought is the other way around. If you know the techniques then you will pass the test. But the belts sub conciously switches this around. Of course not for all people, but for many.

Just some thoughts
Tom
________
FISTING TUBES (http://www.****tube.com/categories/20/fisting/videos/1)

[CLOUD ONE]

your post is intriguing and I have experienced what you are saying.

You said 'but i always find people do it and show me no real respect' Does this apply to your sifu aswell?
I say you have an easy indication that when they do this that you know there intent right away and the onl;y way is to not lose your focus at hand, which I believe is your main aim in chi sau.

So whether they hit you at 100m.p.h or 10m.p.h you have to take it as it comes. It is fustrating if you cannot be sensitive enough to deal with these things and it comes down to saying you are not as good as you perceive yourself to be. Self correction is the only way and not correcting others own views of chi sau, will open a the doors to success.

With respect to names of the people you train with it is invaluable to know who is more advanced and who is not. Either way if you look inwards and not outwards you will always be learning.

[HuangKaiVun]

I don't think you're arrogant in the least, Foolinthedeck.

And I sympathize with your complaints, having lived through them myself in several schools.

However, I would suggest conforming to the school's rules as much as possible. When operating under another person's aegis, do as they do.

That doesn't mean that you should have to accept it all blindly. If the demands placed on you by the school are too much for you (they would be for ME), find yourself another school.

One thing's for sure - I'd NEVER study at your school because I'd be assured of NOT learning how to fight.

[foolinthedeck]

thanks all!
its nice to have people feel so strongly against me, regarding ego, hmmm. the problem there is that i am trying to develop my ego not get rid of it, so although my words and ideas are arrogant.. i dont know. simple fool.

[Mr Chips]

Hi Foolinthedeck,
i can sympathise with you. A lot of people place so much emphasis on their ego that training becomes a case of 'one up manship' because they can't afford to lose and ideas of respect go out the window. You say you are arrogant so it's possible you do this too.

My Sifu taught us that you are training to help each other learn, which means a few things. 1. Your class mates are not your enemy and you are not there to beat them up. If you do they will either not train with you anymore or they will wait outside after class with all the other people you tried to beat up and give you a pasting. 2. It is ok to train hard and hit people, but it must not be malicious. 3. You can learn just as much from "losing" at training (if not more) than "winning".

This to me is the ideal, training hard but not being malicious. Don't involve yourself in "point scoring" when you train. Ultimately it will be you who loses out if you do.
Here endeth the surmon

:D