When&Why did kung fu begin to emphasize forms so much?

[carly]

When&Why did kung fu begin to emphasize forms so much?

[Laughing Cow]

AFAIK.

Forms were always a mainstream of CMA.

In my style it is said to do the forms 10 times every day for 3 yrs (10.000times) in order build a good foundation.

It is even emphasized in our classics that go back a long time.

The forms are the important parts, suplemental training like Chan Si Jing and similar are just that.

Cheers.

[carly]

Forms, or the recent emphasis on forms, has to be a relatively recent development, historically.
I admire schools that emphasize Ji Ben Gong Fa, or training the basics and working out as well as teaching forms, more than those that do little more than practice forms.

[Fred Sanford]

not all schools focus on form to the exclusion of real world fighting ability. I think it all goes back to the almighty dollar. It's easier to retain students if you put emphasis on forms over fighting.

[David Jamieson]

They are an efficient method of learning the large amonut of techniques that cover the body of a system.
With progressive reiteration of techniques as the more advanced forms are learned.

cheers

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by carly
Forms, or the recent emphasis on forms, has to be a relatively recent development, historically.

I am not sure about recent history. but Chen TJQ had Forms about 300yrs ago and the same emphasis is laid on them as well as the other aspects of training, AFAIK.

[omarthefish]

Gotta differ with you on this one. Just because they existed doesn't mean they were that central. Forms were developed primarily as a method of transmitting a style. The MOST traditional teachers today in China don't emphasis forms much. Taiji meing perhaps the example that proves the rule. Even with Taiji, forms training would have only been maybee a third of the time spend originally.

My take on it, in addition to the transmission aspect is that they are good consise demonstrations of different styles. If asked to "show me a little BAJI!", I can do xiaobaji and you can see what BAJI! is about.

[Laughing Cow]

omarthefish.

Glad that you know how I am taught Chen TJQ.
;)
And that you know better than my Sifu who is a lineage holder.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
They are an efficient method of learning the large amonut of techniques that cover the body of a system.
With progressive reiteration of techniques as the more advanced forms are learned.

cheers

Yeah, that's a definite plus. I find with bjj that I don't forget techniques - we train them so much they are ingrained farily well, but we work techniques in series also. It's VERY easy to forget those. That's not really aa bad thing, as you learn to flow naturally from one thing to the next, but there are so many different options you can flow to, it's near impossible to remember them all.

[Marky]

Hi Carly,

Do you mean recently, or "in the beginning?" (let there be light and kung fu forms!)?

You might want to take a look at "The Sword Polisher's _______", I don't remember the last word to the title and I don't have the book with me, nor do I remember the name of the author (a triple threat of ignorance, I'm afraid!). But if you take a look at amazon.com and look for "sword polisher" you'll probably find it quick. The author talks quite a bit about kung fu origins, as well as forms origins/use. A very awesome book, in my opinion! He also talks about the direction forms are taking, and gives his opinion of the "deadly kung fu" style where people just practice forms all day.

[stormmountain]

That's the "Sword Polisher's Record" by Adam Hsu, one of my favorite books on kung fu.

Kung fu focuses on the fighting techniques/principles. Although many people seem to think of forms as a way to train certain principles, I think the primary reason for forms is even more fundamental.

In the time before paper and other ways to record info were commonly available, people had to come up with some way to remember all the fighting drills/techniques in their style. A form is a physical poem. It is a memory device. It is much easier to remember one form with several dozen techniques, than to remember several dozen individual drills.

Today, some MMA guy can just burn his drills on a cd, and keep a print out on a clip board next to him while working out.......................................but I personally think a form is a cooler and more stylish way to remember all those drills! You learn the form properly, and the next obvious step is to break it down into individual segments and train them as individual drills, because that's the point in the first place. People love to assign all kind of "magic" to forms, but to me the most important way to think of them is to see them as a way to memorize several different drills!

Unfortunately, many MA today teach forms, and then do drills with techniques that don't quite mesh with their forms, it's like two different styles cause they don't understand what the forms are for in the first place. So, if your instructor doesn't emphasize breaking down forms into drills and concentrating on those, (once the form is learned properly, of course) then you should get a new instructor.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by stormmountain


Kung fu focuses on the fighting techniques/principles. Although many people seem to think of forms as a way to train certain principles, I think the primary reason for forms is even more fundamental.

I think that depends on the style. some systems of kung fu - shuai chiao for example - use single technique drills as their forms. The purpose of them, in addidition to all of the obvious things, is to teach/train a certain principle.

It is much easier to remember one form with several dozen techniques, than to remember several dozen individual drills.

To some. I personally find it easy to learn both, but prefer single technique drills.

Today, some MMA guy can just burn his drills on a cd, and keep a print out on a clip board next to him while working out.......................................but I personally think a form is a cooler and more stylish way to remember all those drills!

A CMA can do the same thing.


Unfortunately, many MA today teach forms, and then do drills with techniques that don't quite mesh with their forms, it's like two different styles cause they don't understand what the forms are for in the first place. So, if your instructor doesn't emphasize breaking down forms into drills and concentrating on those, (once the form is learned properly, of course) then you should get a new instructor.

Agreed.

[omarthefish]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
omarthefish.

Glad that you know how I am taught Chen TJQ.
;)
And that you know better than my Sifu who is a lineage holder.
Well . . . I obviously don't know how you are taught TJQ but I did both admit that the form is more central to TJQ than most styles. I even called it "the exception that proves the rule"

The reason I think even with that said, it should only be about a third is because there's also push hands and post standing or wu ei standing or whatever you call it. Then that doesn't even include things like training with the taiji ball, iron bar, seated meditation. Then there's the repitions of single movements which take up a considerable time. All things considered, I don't know how the form could take up more than a third in a complete curriculum. I didn't even mention sparring because many traditional teachers don't spar per se...

Lineage? I never even raised the subject.:p

[omarthefish]

Just had to add a thought.

In bagua, the forms take a very minor back seat to circle walking. In Hsing-yi, multiple repititions of the the 5 element fists make up the majority of training with forms also being pushed back into second place.

p.s. the problem with burning CD-roms is that all you get is a visual record of the techniques...

[stormmountain]

I feel like you guys were missing my point. Forms are just ways to remember several drills INSTEAD of having to write them down.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by omarthefish


p.s. the problem with burning CD-roms is that all you get is a visual record of the techniques...

Of course. I personally don't use a CD, but if I did, I'd use it as a supplement only, no different from a book. Once you've learned the form and know it, use can always have the CD as reference. I would never reccomend learning from a CD or book.

[Laughing Cow]

Omarthefish.

Than we are in agreement.
;)

Actually I left my last TJQ school, because there were too many forms and too little attention to the smaller and finer aspects of them.

I agree that in the beginning the form practice takes a larger part than down the road.

To be honest I honestly can't see how you could possible master Chen TJQ without doing single movement training and so on.

Ther is jsut too much in them to absorb in one go.

Cheers.

[jun_erh]

I can see hw forms could be good in the context of a shaolin temple, where other skills are also taught. But if that's all you know you're worse off than learning nothing.

Forms are nothing more than a collection of techniques

people aren't going to fight the old ways in modern times. So you learn the forms out of curiosity.

[Vapour]

I think most kung fu did emphasised the form training. What they didn't do however was to emphasise forms in exclusion of other trainings such as doing drill works, body conditioning such as strength & flexibility exercises plus fist conditioning if you are doing external martial arts.

People who only study forms are like someone who buy lot of guns for personal protection but somehow have forgotten to buy bullets. Say, if someone done a drill of hitting tree with his/her fists repeatedly left and right for a year, s/he would be a far better fighter than someone who learned 3-5 forms during that period but nothing else.

I read somewhere that to be a good fighter you need "spirit, strength and skills" the importance being in that order. I think in some martial arts circle that order has been sadly reversed, (cough tjq cough aikido cough) :)

[Felipe Bido]

Some styles don't see the forms as a "recollection of techniques" but as a "recollection of principles and power exercises". In some styles, you learn a fighting principle that you can use in many ways and with different parts of your body. There's no 'fixed truth' in the forms.

Other styles see the form as a recollection of fixed techniques, and, as jun_erh said, the forms enter into the realm of curiosity, since some of their techniques don't have any value in this modern times.

[stormmountain]

With your statement about principles and powers, I agree wholeheartedly. I just don't see what has changed about human anatomy to make techniques outdated. If you concentrate on doing forms, then, I think you are doing you style WRONG. You learn the forms, then you do them as drills. (so really, it's a semantics thing, Yeh, you still concentrate on forms in a way when you are drilling the techniques from them.)

OF course in Xing Yi, all the forms are short enough to already be drills! (at least in the beginning)

[stormmountain]

Say, if someone done a drill of hitting tree with your fists repeatedly left and right for a year, he would be a far better fighter than someone who learned 3-5 forms during that period but nothing else

Well, you see, that's a good example of learning forms the WRONG way. What if you learn ONE form in the first couple of months of training, and then spent the rest of the year pounding out a couple of striking techniques from the form?, that's the real training.

[Felipe Bido]

When I talked about the techniques being outdated, I didn't mean that it has been any change in the human anatomy, but in the human mindset and training.

It's not that the technique is completely useless, but there are techniques that, if you keep on doing it like the old times, without changing its attributes to suit them to actual situations, it's not gonna work.

And Xing Yi forms are known to be drills of principles since the beginning of the style. That's why their basic forms are short.


you learning ONE form in the first couple of months of training, and then spent the rest of the year pounding out a couple of striking techniques from the form, that's the real training.

You, sir, are correct

[ZIM]

"you learning ONE form in the first couple of months of training, and then spent the rest of the year pounding out a couple of striking techniques from the form, that's the real training."

"You, sir, are correct"
----------------------------

Can't really speak towards when & why, but one thing is probably certain:
Way back, when communications and travel were likely a lot more difficult, you might have only known 1 form, so you practiced that for upwards of five years+ before running across someone who knew another... imagine if that was how you learned, how good you could become at just that 1 thing.

And, of course, how trying to your patience that would be. We're luckier now, I guess...
:confused:

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, I like to practice the entire form till I'm too tired to do the whole thing in one shot. Then I break it down into drills, and drill those drills till I'm fully spent.

Generally, I drill whatever section of the full form I am the weakest on.

I like to

warm up
condition
work some basics, like kicks or light stance work.

Then I do the forms as described above.

If I have a training partner, I like to work self defense at least as long as I drilled my forms, if not as long as the warmup, conditioning, basics and form combined.

I'm guessing THAT is probably about as close to the old ways as it gets.

[Laughing Cow]

Personally, I don't see a problem with training forms perse.

The real problems, IMHO, are:
1.) Not doing the forms correctly.
2.) Misunderstanding of what the forms can give you.

A lot of the McDojo will emphasize the forms as other things like Zhang Zhuang and similar doesn't pull in the crowd.
Even if it is taught many students will skip it, or do it half-heartedly while watching TV or similar.

Same thing with forms, how many students really try to do them as low and as slow (in TJQ) as possible.
Hence they are often asked to do more till they get it right.

If the forms are trained correctly a few a day will be more than enough with plenty of time for other types of training.

Just some thoughts.

[stormmountain]

I would agree with that. BTW, is it just me, or is it weird that mostly Internal MA people are posting on this thread?

[SevenStar]

Nah, it's not weird. If you notice, the board in general is slow this weekend. It'll pickup tomorrow.

[carly]

historic period, say in the last 300 years, when forms became popular and the norm?

[Laughing Cow]

carly.

I will get back to you later, need to check a few sources.

Of the top of my Head, 300yrs ago some forms were consolidated and others discarded, i.e. a reduction in the forms practised.

At the moment only Yi-Lu & Er-Lu are commonly taught, but more forms do exist.

Cheers.

[Royal Dragon]

From what I can se 300-400 years ago, most systems had maybe a dozen forms at the most. Now many oF those same systems have 30,40 or even 100 or more forms. I think each generation adds forms to the system, and afetr a wile, they really start to pile up. That's why I always look for the original system when I can. There is less material to learn.

I'd say the concentration on forms is a modern thing to replace the barbaric act of fighting.........................................T hen came the UFC :D

[stormmountain]

Yeh, I do agree that many styles have just grown BLOATED with forms.

[SaMantis]

stormmountain!!! :)

what up? it's good to see you on the forums ... this is Sam from Boston!

[stormmountain]

Hey Sam, I PM'ed you. Send me your email address.

[Laughing Cow]

I also agree that many MA have become bloated with Forms, especially the short forms.

Besides having many forms I get the feeling that many students are rushed through them and don't get the essence of them.

OTOH, it might be a re-curing stage during the evolution of the MA in general.

Fighting and the socio-economical scene has changed a LOT in the last 100yrs and the MA need to find new ways to adept to them.

Add with that the modern way of instant gratification, over-bloated egos and similar ...

I am not so sure that we are actually seeing a new trend, but rather a recuring trend of growth followed by weeding out of techs and forms.
This naturally would happen during more peaceful times, when notes could be compared with other styles.

Just some thoughts.

[Oso]

When you read a book you start with the first paragraph.

You finish the first chapter.

Then the entire book.

At each step of the way you can summarize each paragraph, chapter and then the entire book in fewer words than it took the author to write. You gain an overall understanding of what the author was trying to say.

[Royal Dragon]

True, but what we have today is more like the Starwars Trilliagies. Over all, we have 6 really good movies, but everyone is also writing thier own books with a star wars theme.

Sure, these new books are all good, but shouldn't one know the original movies well first to better understand the new books?? And if someone really knows the first 6 movies well, don't you think the new books are not over kill?

[Oso]

dude, you're stretching my analogy a bit too far.

Yes, there are probably too many forms in most systems today. But, from the research I've done, most sifu's will say that there are 6 or 7 forms that are all you really need to know to get a good handle on a system.

I was trying to point to why I felt forms are a good part of any system. If it's an older form from created by a pivotal figure in the system then, after learning the entire form, you can get an idea of what that person was trying to do with the art.


As far as learning a bunch of forms, I think that is only limited by the amount of time you have to practice each of them. Knowing 100 forms that you only practice 15-20 of regularly means that 80 of them aren't doing you a heck of a lot of good.

I think it's an interesting contrast that tai chi systems will have, nominally, 1 form and other kung fu systems, especially hard/external systems, will have many. I don't know what that means exactly (and don't anyone throw the 'it's better to know one form blah blah blah' out there ) but it's interesting to think about.

[prana]

I can almost generalise that forms not as important to the Western Artists but have been emphasised greatly in the east. Also, Eaterners tend to repeat the forms over and over again, more so that Westerners, who learn many different forms.

I think many Westerners come into MA with the "martial" aspect of it as emphasis. Many Easterners enter MA with the philosophy of it as the emphasis. Hence whilst Westerners takes a year to get strong physically, and spend more time bulking up muscles and increasing strength for fighting, the Eastern approach emphasises more on getting the minute movements right in forms.

It was immediately clear when I moved from my home country to here.

[Laughing Cow]

Prana.

Great post and I concur.

My Sifu won't let us advance on anything until he is satisfied that we got things down 100%.

Example:
He often laments that there is too little "spiral energy" in most TJQ today, and hence stresses developing this a lot.

Cheers.

[Oso]

prana, I'm about as scotch/irish/english/american western as it gets and I dig forms a lot and make every attempt to play them as often as possible and rip them apart to figure out what makes them tick.

so, I guess I disagree with that generalization. You read a lot of mma guys opinions around here but I think they represent a minority of westerners who are studying martial arts.

I'm not sure what is more martial then a form that shows you how to knee someone in the face, kick them in the bladder while breaking their arms/dislocating their shoulders.

[prana]

hehe no offense intended, hence I guess I said "generalisation".

:D

[Oso]

no offense really taken, I just disagreed.:)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by prana

I think many Westerners come into MA with the "martial" aspect of it as emphasis. Many Easterners enter MA with the philosophy of it as the emphasis. Hence whilst Westerners takes a year to get strong physically, and spend more time bulking up muscles and increasing strength for fighting, the Eastern approach emphasises more on getting the minute movements right in forms.

It was immediately clear when I moved from my home country to here.

Dunno if I agree with that part, especially when grappling is involved. You HAVE to understand the minute details or your technique has a much greater chance of failure. In the past, I've likened that aspect of it to kung fu.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Oso


so, I guess I disagree with that generalization. You read a lot of mma guys opinions around here but I think they represent a minority of westerners who are studying martial arts.

I dunno... Alot of the Americans I know that study traditional styles hate forms too. Of the ones I know that do like them, NONE of them would be content with only learning like one form per year or whatever.

I'm not sure what is more martial then a form that shows you how to knee someone in the face, kick them in the bladder while breaking their arms/dislocating their shoulders.

WARNING: MMA answer...


Actually sparring and doing it against a resisting opponent.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by SevenStar

I dunno... Alot of the Americans I know that study traditional styles hate forms too. Of the ones I know that do like them, NONE of them would be content with only learning like one form per year or whatever.

Is that a fault of the student or the MA system?

One form per year is rapid progress, some traditional forms take 5 or more years to master.

The real question should be:

WHY do they hate form work?

Cheers.

P.S.: We been on the same movement now for 3 weeks already.

[prana]

okok guess I best elaborate.

In the old days,
we did no sparring - no emphasis on combat
we are encouraged not to do weights or machines - no brute strength
we encourage "yi" instead of "gong"
we do forms movement by movement, classwide. Sifu walks around and checks persont 2 person before the next move - emphasis per student (stance ouch)
we do a helluva lot more form checking - emphasis listening

When I arrived here, the teachings were
lots of pushups - strength
lots of stretching - agility ?
lots of sparring - combat

Now you might question the reason to train then for attending MA... but that is exactly the difference. We didnt train to fight or for the "martial" side of it, we trained for different reasons ...


your technique has a much greater chance of failure.

see in our days, progress was when grandmaster is willing to teach us a new qi-gong set, not about failure or sucess, with a grandtotal of 3 subtle movements in the entire set that we should practise day in and day out for the rest of our lives... hehehe

ahh I can't explain well. But Western influence is really changing the face of training in the east too.... and vice versa.

[Laughing Cow]

Prana.

I fully understand what you are talking about.

I spent yesterday 2 hours trying to get the hand and finger movements correct in the transition from "Single whip" to Cloud hands".
Sifu just added a new level and more detail to concentrate on to the movement

Many of our students in the kwoon often practice a fraction of a move for seemingly hours on end.

OTOH, we also get lots of people coming in and ask we we can teach them only the "Hooks" or similar, but skip ALL the training up to that level.

Drives me up the wall.

Cheers.

[joedoe]

We had a guy come in and wanted us to teach him dim mak. :rolleyes:

[ZIM]

...so you poked him in the eye, right? The ole stooge-fu?

[joedoe]

No, we all stood around him, pointed at him and laughed. Eventually he started to cry and ran home to his mummy :D

Seriously though, my sifu showed him some non-dim mak techniques and the w@nker had the hide to tell him that it was nothing special. I don't think he ever came back.

We seem to get this kind of w@nker every couple of months. They usually come along and tell us that they go around to all the schools and learn the secrets of each art and then leave. Then they expect us to show them the secrets of our art!

Amongst the instructors, we have an in-joke. Whenever someone asks us if there is an easier way to carry out a technique, our answer is always "Train harder" :)

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow

The real question should be:

WHY do they hate form work?

Cheers.


In the past, I've twice heard the following sentiment from unrelated people with more CMA experience than I have:

If a guy has nothing to teach you, he'll teach you the form.

I don't know if it's true, but I have seen schools who focus too extensively on forms training without giving people an understandable training methodology.

I enjoy forms for their artistry, but they're dead last in my solo training priorities. Instead, I spend about 95% of my time on basics, zhan zhuang, and neigung. Why? Well, I use xingyi as a martial form of core training (I already know more than enough techniques). With basics, standing, and neigung, I can specify my training more than I can with a form. Long term, what does this mean for my development? I honestly have no idea, but it's certainly a testable hypothesis.

Culturally, I think American students are more apt to question why they're being told to do something. If they're not given a reasonable answer ("because sifu said so" ain't a reasonable answer) to their question, it'll seem pointless. Besides training xingyi, I also train JJJ with guys who all held/hold advanced dan rank in various types of karate. To a one, they're all extremely fit, dedicated, well-studied and competent practitioners. Every one of them also believe forms are useless beyond light exercise.

FWIW, I currently practice two forms. One I like because I can see the martial applications in it while the other (a cudgel form) doesn't vibe with me at all. I keep thinking there's gotta be usable stick techniques in there somewhere, but I just can't see them.

In another non-Chinese system I trained, the forms were broken into 2 types--hand and leg forms. Short hand forms were more like a punch+ (2-4 separate motions) while the leg forms were longer. Surprisingly, the shorter hand forms were presented as the heart of the system's principles while the leg forms were framed as providing you your footwork. I probably haven't explained it well, but it made the system coherent.

Lastly, I agree with previous posters. WTF do some systems (in my experience, CLF is especially bad about it) have so many **** forms? Maybe I'm different from your average student, but I'd prefer to master a relatively small amount of principled material. Unless the forms are all consistently structured, learning a 100 form system is means focusing on everything and ensuring you'll focus on nothing.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow


Is that a fault of the student or the MA system?

One form per year is rapid progress, some traditional forms take 5 or more years to master.

The real question should be:

WHY do they hate form work?

Cheers.

P.S.: We been on the same movement now for 3 weeks already.

depends on how you look at it - it could be a fault of both. Definitely the student's fault, as he could be more patient. But, kung fu by design takes longer to become proficient in than sport styles, which can be looked at as a flaw.

As for why they hate form work, my guess is lack of gratification, and too much "boring repetition".

[Laughing Cow]

fragbot.

I see what you are saying and this brings me back to a point I mentioned previously.

Incorrect form training is a waste of time,as it results in a fitness & "waving hands & feet in the air" exercise.

Do you apply your styles principles to the form and "listen" for feedback from your Body.
Can the principles be manifested seen by observers, is your "shen" visible, etc.

Solo forms are a way of testing YOURSELF and learning about your own Body.

Tui Shou and similar 2-person exercises are for learning about others, but first you need to know yourself.

As for MA applications many are hidden and many are obvious, where as some movements contain NO application but serve other purposes like transitions between moves.

But I agree forms alone won't get you anywhere and there should not be too much emphasis on them.

Cheers.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by SevenStar


depends on how you look at it - it could be a fault of both. Definitely the student's fault, as he could be more patient. But, kung fu by design takes longer to become proficient in than sport styles, which can be looked at as a flaw.


Depending on what your goals are of course.

Not sure about the exact CMA History but didn't 5 ancestors create styles that could be learned in 3 yrs rather than the customary 10yrs.



As for why they hate form work, my guess is lack of gratification, and too much "boring repetition".

Luckily I never get bored with formwork way too many things to concentrate on and get right.
And everytime I think I got it licked, Sifu adds something new to it,

But than I am happy when Sifu sez you have shown some improvement.
;) :D

[joedoe]

Originally posted by SevenStar


depends on how you look at it - it could be a fault of both. Definitely the student's fault, as he could be more patient. But, kung fu by design takes longer to become proficient in than sport styles, which can be looked at as a flaw.

As for why they hate form work, my guess is lack of gratification, and too much "boring repetition".

But many exercise can be seen as boring repitition as well - drilling, weights, bagwork etc.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fragbot


In another non-Chinese system I trained, the forms were broken into 2 types--hand and leg forms. Short hand forms were more like a punch+ (2-4 separate motions) while the leg forms were longer. Surprisingly, the shorter hand forms were presented as the heart of the system's principles while the leg forms were framed as providing you your footwork. I probably haven't explained it well, but it made the system coherent.



Sounds like silat.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by joedoe


But many exercise can be seen as boring repitition as well - drilling, weights, bagwork etc.

there's gratification there though - while drilling with a resisting opponent, you can test your techniques and see how they work when someone doesn't want them to. with weights, you get stronger, gain mass, etc. depending on your goal. With bagwork, our strikes get stronger. All of those are rewards you will see faster than rewards you see from forms work.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow


Depending on what your goals are of course.

Not sure about the exact CMA History but didn't 5 ancestors create styles that could be learned in 3 yrs rather than the customary 10yrs.



Yeah, RD posted someting about that in a recent thread. In the case of Taizu, the southern style was created as a system of learning to fight quickly. The northern style was the full style that could take decades to master.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by SevenStar


there's gratification there though - while drilling with a resisting opponent, you can test your techniques and see how they work when someone doesn't want them to. with weights, you get stronger, gain mass, etc. depending on your goal. With bagwork, our strikes get stronger. All of those are rewards you will see faster than rewards you see from forms work.

I once asked ST00 this question and I don't htink he understood what I was getting at, but I will try with you 7* and see what you think.

In our school, we have a practice called 'checking'. What this entails is that one person (A) performs the form while another person (B) performs a counter form to resist A's movements. Essentially B is A's opponent while he does the form. This is not a 2-man form as the goal of B is to actually make it hard for A to apply the technqiues in the form. Bear in mind that while person B's movements are scripted to a certain degree (as they are restricted to affecting the movements of person A), there is also a fair degree of unscripted training involved.

Does this still constitute what ST00 terms 'not-alive' practice? Does the resistance of person B classify the exercise as a drill? Or is it closer to sparring? How would you classify an exercise like this?

[SevenStar]

I'd classify it as a drill, but since person B isn't performing fully scripted movements, I wouldn't say that the drill lacks liveness.

[joedoe]

OK, so would you then say that the form had more value because that kind of drill is practiced?

How would you classify push-hands/chi sau etc?

[SevenStar]

Is the form always performed that way, or is it also performed solo? as a solo form, it would have the same benefits as any other form. Doing it the way you described, however, I can see some added benefits you get to drill the principles and techniques of the form against resistance.

I see push hands and chi sau as drills, but they are very much alive.

[Shooter]

"aliveness' is a myth..."non-aliveness" is a misnomer conjured up by people who have little understanding of the the things they condemn. The only shred of validity to all this BS is when one takes into account that certain forms have a level of specificity seldom understood by the people who practice them.

[SevenStar]

by aliveness, we are saying basically that it's not pre arranged. What is your definition?

[fragbot]

Originally posted by SevenStar
depends on how you look at it - it could be a fault of both. Definitely the student's fault, as he could be more patient. But, kung fu by design takes longer to become proficient in than sport styles, which can be looked at as a flaw.


Not that I (dis)agree with your statement, but I'd like to understand *why* it's designed to take longer.

Personally, I think it's just a matter of sheer volume of material. There are just too many things to teach/learn/practice. I wonder if a smallish* kung fu system could provide reasonably quick results. Even within a larger system, I suspect someone obsessively training the pi** outta 1 or 2 signature techniques could be excellent quickly. I've often wondered how many old-timers did this sort of thing and built entire reputations by consistently beating people with the same technique.

*Sal Canzonieri once wrote an article about a modern Taiwanese single-form system called Chung I Chuan. Beyond that article, I've never once seen anyone talk about it.



As for why they hate form work, my guess is lack of gratification, and too much "boring repetition".

I've met a decent number of people who will religiously practice even more mundane and drudgerous things than forms--footwork, breakfalls, stancework (the ultimate in repetitive practice) or various punches/kicks. Meanwhile, they'll either ignore forms altogether or relegate them to a minor focus.

I think it's a matter of directness to the task at hand. When a form is taught, it would be helpful if the "intent" of the form was taught as well. Is this artificially limiting? Yep, since people'll see the form as taught. Is this a problem? Nope, you can always refine things later.

[Shooter]

My definition is based on what I understand the idea to infer as per the people who parrot it as the New Liturgy. :p

How you're defining it works too. :cool:

[joedoe]

Originally posted by SevenStar
Is the form always performed that way, or is it also performed solo? as a solo form, it would have the same benefits as any other form. Doing it the way you described, however, I can see some added benefits you get to drill the principles and techniques of the form against resistance.

I see push hands and chi sau as drills, but they are very much alive.

The form is performed in both manners - solo and checked. I do agree with you on the added benefits from checking as it gives you an opportunity to figure out how to make techniques work properly. I guess it is what you guys always talk about when you say 'testing it against a resisting opponent'

There was actually an article on the checking techniques we use in IKF in February 2003. The article was written by Sifu John Graham who is a sifu under our lineage, and was titled "The 3 strategies of San Chin".

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by fragbot

Even within a larger system, I suspect someone obsessively training the pi** outta 1 or 2 signature techniques could be excellent quickly. I've often wondered how many old-timers did this sort of thing and built entire reputations by consistently beating people with the same technique.


AFAIK, there were quiet a few masters that were renowned for using 1 move to end their fights.

Yang Lu Chan (Yang TJQ) being one of those.



When a form is taught, it would be helpful if the "intent" of the form was taught as well. Is this artificially limiting? Yep, since people'll see the form as taught. Is this a problem? Nope, you can always refine things later.

Can you define "intent" here, do you mean specific/fixed martial applications if so I might disagree.

Cheers.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fragbot


I've met a decent number of people who will religiously practice even more mundane and drudgerous things than forms--footwork, breakfalls, stancework (the ultimate in repetitive practice) or various punches/kicks. Meanwhile, they'll either ignore forms altogether or relegate them to a minor focus.



As have I - I'm one of them. I practice breakfalls, shrimping, basic drills, etc. like there's no tomorrow. Most of the people I know however, don't fall into that category.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by joedoe


The form is performed in both manners - solo and checked. I do agree with you on the added benefits from checking as it gives you an opportunity to figure out how to make techniques work properly. I guess it is what you guys always talk about when you say 'testing it against a resisting opponent'

There was actually an article on the checking techniques we use in IKF in February 2003. The article was written by Sifu John Graham who is a sifu under our lineage, and was titled "The 3 strategies of San Chin".

Is that available online, or would I have to order a back issue?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fragbot


I suspect someone obsessively training the pi** outta 1 or 2 signature techniques could be excellent quickly. I've often wondered how many old-timers did this sort of thing and built entire reputations by consistently beating people with the same technique.


The avg. Judoka does that. There are over 60 throws, but of course, trying to master them ALL and compete with them would take too long, and you would likely never master them all anyway. most guys have a croe set of throws - maybe eight or so (one throw in each direction) that they are very good at, and within that set, 2 or 3 that they try to master.

[dezhen2001]

ive heard this 5 monks story as well - things are easy and quicker to learn... with wing chun i dont think so - dunno about others :eek: Wing chun is similar to taijiquan in some respects as it takes a lot of precision, relaxation, and listening to the body... this is how you learn about structure and how to develop power. Thats why we have forms like Siu Lim Tao.

Specifically that form in my school we often train for as long as we can... 30 mins or more for 1 repetition. Actually its mostly the first section that is that long - the last 2 are faster. Why? Surely thats far too long? its to develop a foundation, like stance training. Its to develop muscle and body memory as well as correct structure so that when the sh|t hits the fan we keep a workable structure. its to develop our positioning so its hard for people to get thru to our centre. Its to develop relaxation in our posture so we can "listen" correctly and use energy much faster.

Even from that alone there are so many things you can work on for a lifetime! Then we have to learn how to use them properly with a partner and develop them more in chi sau and application training.

Theres a LOT of work there even though its a "small" system with 3 very short unarmed forms, a dummy form and 2 simple weapons forms.

just my £0.02 :p

dawood

[ZIM]

Just a question

Someone, possibly kung lek, said 'we train for yi, not gung'. I wasn't exactly sure of the translations here.

For myself, I train yi and gung as opposed to faat... for us, this translates to training intention and skill, not techniques. Is this just a linguistic, northern vs. southern thing? or something deeper?

I spend a great deal of time on stance work and form, drills and resistance with drills. 'Smaller' arts can be found within larger ones, esp. with 5 element fist, etc. some masters were known for their excellence with just 1 or 2 fists within that. I tend to think that some arts, including wing chun, were 'blown up' versions of minor arts, things that became arts on their own. Encyclopedic knowledge is great, just so you know all of it with that same thoroughness, IMO.

[Oso]

Originally posted by Oso

so, I guess I disagree with that generalization. You read a lot of mma guys opinions around here but I think they represent a minority of westerners who are studying martial arts.

I dunno... Alot of the Americans I know that study traditional styles hate forms too. Of the ones I know that do like them, NONE of them would be content with only learning like one form per year or whatever.


wasn't jabbing at mma guys. If you don't like forms, don't study a style that has them. If you like forms, find a style that has them.

As far as how long it takes to learn a form...well, that depends on how much time to take to work on it. I think you can learn the mechanical movements in a very short period of time. Right now since I travel back to my sifu to learn, I try to be able to learn a form in 3-4 visits. I don't have a mastery of it by any means, but I can get from point a to b but I don't work forms to a point where I would ever show it for any sort of judgement. I am also real bad for changing a form to show application vs. how it was first shown to me...I don't agree with doing a movement in a form if it's not at least close to how it works in an application.

My first 7 years of cma study had absolutely no formwork. We drilled and we sparred. Then I started studying a system that had forms. Now I drill movements from the forms. I like the fact that I know forms and use them to extrapolate skills and applications. But, that's just me. I've never seen a 'good' school that had forms NOT use them to formulate effective fight strategy. Just cuz some schools don't utilize forms well doesn't mean it's a bad method.

My recent foray into jj has me doing skill drills and flow drills exclusively and I like the training a lot. If you can't use what you have to formulate effective fight strategy then you are scre wing up. Find something, or someone (sifu), that can teach you how to fight whether it is form based or skill based or a combination of both.




I'm not sure what is more martial then a form that shows you how to knee someone in the face, kick them in the bladder while breaking their arms/dislocating their shoulders.

WARNING: MMA answer...


Actually sparring and doing it against a resisting opponent.

I don't see that as a mma answer. Just a practical one.:)

I don't disagree with that at all but what's wrong with taking that application of a sequence from a form of mine and then training it against a resisting opponent?

[Vapour]

The instructor of my Judo club is seventh dan. As you know, judo doesn't have Micky Mouse 10th dan and 7th dan is very very high. He is in fact the highest in Britain. I'm so lucky to have found him.

He say every judo throw is manifested from one move you learn, uchikomi. If you don't know judo, you don't know what it is so don't ask me. That one single move then manifest into 12 basic throw. And for each of these throws, he say there are 100s of variaion. He stated once that if you perfect three of these basic throws, you can become world champion.

In Karate sanchin or judo uchikomi or taijiquan, advance forms/technique are there to point out the numerous *manifestation* of technique from the basic form/kata rather than simply adding technique into your database. In fact, if you try to do particular technique, it will never works in fight or competition. That is why many people state that kata never works. The correct attitude to kata is when you practice kata/form enough, when you doing free sparing, you do some move and realised that it was a technique in kata/form.

Also, one reason some karate/tkd/kungfu practioner are getting their arse kickedy by BJJ and MMA practioners are because they put too much empasis on competition. Most competition rule in kickboxing arts ban dangerous moves which is in fact the moves you have to use against charging grappler. Plus, in competition, you don't need conditioned fist but in fight, you should aim to knock down your opponent (grappler included) by single punch or kick if you do hard martial arts.

Having said it, there is also problem with obsessively focusing on drill work. Even though some argue that competition karate/tkd/kungfu stance is too high focusing on agility than power, some combat karateka squat too low for opposite effect, aiming to knock down opponent with single blow. If one overdo this there are no flow in transision of one technique to another one, another easy prey to grappler. That aspect, you can train by doing sparing but the knowledge of transition of technique is contained in the sequence of the form.

I do believe that forms contain the secret of whatever style you are doing. Body conditioning, drill works and sparing is there to unlock that secret.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow

AFAIK, there were quiet a few masters that were renowned for using 1 move to end their fights.

Yang Lu Chan (Yang TJQ) being one of those.


Yeah, he was one person I had specifically in mind. Guo Yun Shen and his beng quan is another. A famous aikidoka whose name I can't remember and shihonage (how he made that technique work consistently, I honestly have no idea).



Can you define "intent" here, do you mean specific/fixed martial applications if so I might disagree.


You could look at it in that way, but I was more interested in the attitudes and body skills the form is designed to train.

[Leimeng]

~ A deep understanding of Hsing-I would probably reveal that every dynamic and energy movement in the system is in the first element "Pi Chuan."
~ In most Bagua if it is taugh correctly, every dynamic and energy originates in the 8 mother palms and the first of the changes.
~ In Hsing-I there is an exercise set called 1000 elements. If a person does this every day (about an hour or so) then in a two to three year period they will develop some incredible power. If they don't practice hard of course they will be worthless in a fight...
~ In Bagua a person should practice the changes and 8 mother palms for a few years and then they gain the skill and body dynamics for power.
~ After a person has a good knowledge of body dynamics and power generation, they can translate that over to other forms and techniques.
~ Most people dont get any benefit out of forms practice because they are to lazy to drill it correctly for the 10,000 repetitions neccessary to gain a correct understanding and usage of the power.

Hope that helps out some

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng Kan Xue

[jun_erh]

I found applications / twp person drills to be a million times more helpful than forms. Forms are just an artfully strung together group of techniques. To actually get someone off balance and in your control using skill is much much harder than becoming profficient in a form. If your teacher doesn't teach you how to fight, you're not studying martial arts, to paraphrase the dog bros

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Oso
[i]

wasn't jabbing at mma guys.

I know :)



My first 7 years of cma study had absolutely no formwork. We drilled and we sparred. Then I started studying a system that had forms.

Out of curiosity, what style was it?


I don't see that as a mma answer. Just a practical one.:)

I don't disagree with that at all but what's wrong with taking that application of a sequence from a form of mine and then training it against a resisting opponent?

Nothing. That's a great training method, IMO.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by fragbot


Yeah, he was one person I had specifically in mind. Guo Yun Shen and his beng quan is another. A famous aikidoka whose name I can't remember and shihonage (how he made that technique work consistently, I honestly have no idea).



You could look at it in that way, but I was more interested in the attitudes and body skills the form is designed to train.

If I'm not mistaken, Jigoro Kano's move was o goshi.
aikijujutsu player shiro saigo was famous for yama arashi.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vapour

Also, one reason some karate/tkd/kungfu practioner are getting their arse kickedy by BJJ and MMA practioners are because they put too much empasis on competition. Most competition rule in kickboxing arts ban dangerous moves which is in fact the moves you have to use against charging grappler. Plus, in competition, you don't need conditioned fist but in fight, you should aim to knock down your opponent (grappler included) by single punch or kick if you do hard martial arts.


If you understand the principles, you can apply them to competition techniques as well. As far as iron palm, fist, etc. - it's legal in mma, so if they have it, they can feel free to use it. If they are able to drop the guy in one blow with it, more power to them.

[prana]

Originally posted by ZIM
Just a question

Someone, possibly kung lek, said 'we train for yi, not gung'. I wasn't exactly sure of the translations here.

For myself, I train yi and gung as opposed to faat... for us, this translates to training intention and skill, not techniques. Is this just a linguistic, northern vs. southern thing? or something deeper?

Hey Zim :) tis was me :)

Anyway, yeah grandmaster always said to me "you have lots of power but you dont know how to use it", he would make us do exercise that are absolutely ... hmmm.... powerless perhaps ?

He would emphasise listening, and using "Khin" (hokkien) and "yi" to move or in training.

Put that all back in the context of which I wrote, hopefully it will make more sense... heheh :cool:

[Vapour]

As far as iron palm, fist, etc. - it's legal in mma, so if they have it, they can feel free to use it. If they are able to drop the guy in one blow with it, more power to them.



There is difference between punching with grove and punching with barefist. Contac of bear knuckle to the face will inflict sever injuries to the facial tissue and was the reason boxing gloves were invented. There is also a distinct possibility of frontal skull fructure if a barefist sink straight into face. Worse case is when fist land on the back of the head just above the neck which could cause actual death. That is why backfisting is absolutely banned in boxing. Similarly, you do not drop elbow to opponet's head even if he is trying to take you to the ground nor you kick or knee someone's head. Nor you do particular form of nasty low kick to someone's leg. If someone train in traditional karate/tkd/kungfu, their skill, techniques and conditioning of hands are, in fact, geared toward causing such effect. So likelyhood of death if these people fight competitively in such event are much higher, that is if anyone ever want to perticipate in such event.

Therefore, if one ever host barefist knockout competition, the punch to the head must be absolutely banned or a death and multiple of crippling injuries will be the outcome and the organizer(s) will face civil and criminal consequences.

If in doubt, read this

http://www.time.com/time/asia/news/magazine/0,9754,129010,00.html

[Laughing Cow]

I thought gloves were invented to protect the hands of the person doing the punch.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow
I thought gloves were invented to protect the hands of the person doing the punch.

No, old boxing was barefist match. The participant knew how to punch in a way which protect their fist much like traditional oriental martial artists.

[Royal Dragon]

I'd imagine the old boxing systems had something similar to Iron hand too. Maybe not with the herbs, but someting still.

[SevenStar]

mma gloves are nowhere near the thickness of boxing gloves. If power can't transfer through mma gloves, how could it travel through say, a big ski jacket that your opponent is wearing?

[SevenStar]

also, what about iron palm?

[SevenStar]

I thought gloves were protection of the knuckles too.


EDIT: just found this on bjj.org

"For example, critics pilloried ultimate fighting because competitors fought with bare knuckles: To a nation accustomed to boxing gloves, this seemed revolting, an invitation to brain damage. But it's just the reverse: The purpose of boxing gloves is not to cushion the head but to shield the knuckles. Without gloves, a boxer would break his hands after a couple of punches to the skull. That's why ultimate fighters won't throw multiple skull punches. As a result, they avoid the concussive head wounds that kill boxers--and the long-term neurological damage that cripples them."

[Fred Sanford]

if i remember right the old school western bare knuckle boxers used to use pickle brine to toughen their hands

if you only anticipate sport fighting with gloves and wraps then hand conditioning is a waste of time.

Iron palm isn't some magical bs like some people seem to think
it's just conditioning your hands to handle bare handed strikes and hopefully not break and bruise.

[SevenStar]

my point exactly

[Oso]

It was a bas tard form of hung gar. We did none of the forms that I now know hung gar has but trained animal and elemental theory directly as fighting skills. This was all backyard training.

I can't help but seem to fall in with people of loose lineage but great fighting ability or good teaching ability. My first sifu was, and still is, a tremendous fighter and the basic method of teaching was long periods (hours) of sparring with him stopping to explain and then resume the sparring. My second sifu is not as good a fighter but a good teacher.

:) I was knocked out cold at least once and knocked senseless many, many more times by my first sifu and never by my second. But, I feel I learned to fight from my first sifu and learned to teach from my second.


Fred, I'll have to slightly disagree with you about the purpose of iron palm. Yes, it does condition the hands to take more abuse w/o damage but as I've been taught it, the point is to condition the hands to the point that they can deliver the same physical damage w/o the tension in the fist and arms that are required to make a hard fist. The looser arms and hands will aid in delivering more 'soft' power to the opponent.;)

[ZIM]

prana- thank you. That did clarify things. Different language [chinese, really- we don't tend to use it as much] but same concept overall.

Oso- I had a similar 'basement' experience before- not much forms work, more applications, etc. For myself, I felt that I got maybe one quarter of the art itself. I'd still never fault the teacher, though- he shared what he knew & it fit for the time. I'm just glad to have progressed further.... but I have had to unlearn some things.

...you do raise an interesting point though, and one I revisit occassionally- 3 kinds of MAs: some are good fighters [tend to rely on sure shots], some are good teachers [thus], some are good 'experimenters' [tend to just love exploring the arts].

The latter two don't always win and the last has a good time & learns regardless of win or lose. The first sometimes has trouble in tournaments as he tends to have an intense ego....

[Royal Dragon]

Me , I am a great teacher, but I think I tend to fall into the experimenter classifaction the most. Take the whole video couraspondence thing I do. I have been thinking about that lately, and I have decided I started that when I left a custom manufacturing job for a cookie cutter, high production manufacturing job. The cookie cutter work left a great void in my creativity (althouh paid better), and the whole video couraspondence course thing, whic started not long after, has really filled that because I'm almost reinventing it on my own.

That and I enjoy the networking, and researching aspect of it too. I've made alot of freinds over the years doing this.

As far as fighting, before my back went, I was deacent, but never anything that would be ready to take on "Royce" or any level of professional fight.

Right now, I'm more concerned with recapturing my physical abilities, so I tend to do alot more form work. This makes me think that the Chinese had intentionally shifted martial arts to a forms based training in order to quell the fighting part of it. I'm told that at Shaolin today, they do very little application work, it's ALL forms unless you are planning to teach.

This may be because the Chinese have seen too much brutality over the ages, it may also be the current government trying to pacify a hostile nation, maybe the "Sick men of Asia" line ****ed them off to much. Who knows, but I think the shift to more forms has to do with the shift towards physical development as the primary focus.

If the Chinese are going to compete in the fighting arena, they are going to have to go back to thier roots and focus on real traditional training methods. We see this in San Da, but it needs to also be applied to the original combative arts as well.