Applications

[B.Tunks]

People, hello...

I've got nothing to do with this whole 'Wah Lum is fake because it has no applications' battle, but I want to raise a small point if I may.
It is not specific to Wah Lum that there are no applications taught to all of the techniques of the system. In fact, up until recent times, it was like this for many chinese martial arts, although not generally so for Tanglang Quan. In fact, beyond the rudimentary and blatantly obvious techniques such as punches and kicks, a great majority of internal arts and their masters, have long avoided teaching applications.
In fact, in many systems, teaching applications was thought to cloud the head and prevent spontaneous and appropriate reaction during combat. In my own experience (and the martial community on the whole), this is only possible at the highest levels and after many, many years of hard training under a highly demanding master, and even then, extremely rare! Therefore this method has been cast aside by most systems in the 20th century.
Having said that, withholding the 'true' application of a particular technique until mastery of the mechanics involved, is a sometimes useful tool in coaching the novice.
Unfortunately, throughout history many masters of little substance have hidden their lack of true knowledge behind this old custom. The only real way to find out is to go to the Master themselves, as getting inside someones mind and heart is very difficult. On top of that, there can still be some use in training hard in a system without accurate knowledge of application eg; physical conditioning, mental discipline, and development of timing, rhythm, speed, power etc. Only thing missing is martial intent, therefore it becomes almost impossible to apply in combat.

Aside from this, I have fought many Mantis Boxers and funnily enough, hardly any of them, regardless of lineage and there 'knowledge' of application, could use Tanglang skills in combat. Some of the biggest walking dictionaries of mantis boxing have turned of to be completely useless when it comes time to apply. Thats a fact!
B.T

[spiralstair]

Using the concept of 'martial intent' as a jumping off point brings up two distinct ways of thinking about applications.

If the martial artist is attempting to 'apply' his style's movement to an attacker, it is the 'intent' of the attacker that changes the 'nature' of the application.

If one is free fighting with a fellow student the intent of the attack is almost always benign, the incoming attack may be fast and strong, but it never contains the 'commitment to injure'. Thus, this type of attack has a bit of retreat within the advance. To 'apply' towards this type of attack has a totally different rythmn and feeling than in actual combat where only one walks away.
There the attacker's 'commitment to injure' provides a more solid platform on which to express the 'true' application.

It's all just a (incredibly interesting) game until it's completely serious, than the feeling completely changes and the application also.

Two man sets are great ways of training high level coordination, with its components of timing, rythmn, and focus, but they will NEVER be the same as real combat. Real combat calls for agility(the ability to rapidly change in the face of unexpected external conditions), over coordination. So how do we judge what is the proper application? IMHO we cannot if we are looking at coordination and rating it for potential for agility. That's like looking at a great golfer and betting on how well he'll hit a baseball.

[SaMantis]

I agree with both statements.

Since I read quite a bit, I can quote a lot of information off the top of my head without too much trouble. But learning movements and their application is a much different process, and a much slower one, especially for those who don't come from an athletic background. So, learning the movements correctly is far more important in a physical art than learning every possible application right off. The apps can and will come later.

Sparring has its place too, whether it's light or full contact. I've always seen it as a high-speed chess match, since you're playing in a constrained area (the ring) with just a few tools (applications) available. But you're learning how to think and move under a set pressure level, control your fear and/or temper. It's still not combat, but I've seen a few loud, boastful types go into a sparring ring and come out very quiet.

Actual combat is quite different. spiralstair explains it really well.

[18elders]

So if you guys are saying you can't apply your techniques in actual combat then why are you even training in kung fu?
Maybe it is in the way you train or who is teaching you.
Try tae bo, it is cheaper.

[spiralstair]

i8 elders;

nobody said that.

take your time. read slowly. maybe a light will dawn.

then, if it doesn't, try insulting the other posters. you can always fall back on that.

anyway, thanks for adding to the discussion.
peace.

[Joe Mantis]

Nothing is actual combat but actual combat. If we all could accept that fact then our training will be more productive.
Even the US Armed Forces know that. They train for actual combat and attempt to simulate combat as close as possible.
However they too know that any simulation no matter how close
Is Not the Real Thing.

Our goal should be to perfect our techniques in a real as scenario as possible. No technique is guarenteed to work in a situation but the more we train the more we raise the percentage that it will work.

Train Correctly, Train Hard

JM

[18elders]

spiralstair-
B. Trunks stated,

Aside from this, I have fought many Mantis Boxers and funnily enough, hardly any of them, regardless of lineage and there 'knowledge' of application, could use Tanglang skills in combat. Some of the biggest walking dictionaries of mantis boxing have turned of to be completely useless when it comes time to apply. Thats a fact!

what does it mean to you?

[SaMantis]

OK, let me relate a story about my very first night in Actual Combat.

This was not hand-to-hand combat, because the Gulf War's specialty was in push-button combat, and I was a female anyway. But here's my scenario:

The first days of the air war, Hussein sent a few SCUDs into Saudi (and Israeli) cities. Not much. Then on Jan. 20/21, he targeted Riyadh. 22 SCUD missiles detonated over or in the city that night. I was on duty at my station between an airbase and Schwarzkopf's HQ, both major targets. Which made me=fan and SCUDs=sh*t.

All of us on duty were 19-20 year olds, multiservice, and all training intensively for the Gulf for at least 6 months. We were ready, ******. Nervous, but otherwise unafraid.

That night, the air raid siren went off in the building for the 1st time ever, and outside we heard multiple explosions. What did we do? Stood there. None of us could move. Later, one of the Air Force staffers said it was like a bolt of white-hot lightning went through him, of sheer terror. I agreed because the same thing happened to me.

Finally, we reacted, but slowly. Like machines, we put on our chemical gear, picked up our weapons, and went to preassigned positions. But it was extremely stressful all night just wondering what the hell was happening (no CNN available), and in fact our NCOIC imagined he had breathed in poison gas, hyperventilated and collapsed a few hours into it.

We went through air raids every night after that until Feb. 23, but did not experience the same intensity of fear that we had the first night - we'd learned that we could deal with that type of attack. By the time the last SCUD was fired, we would actually go up to the rooftop to watch the missiles come in (with our gear close by).

The point being, that months and even years of training at high intensity for combat could not equal the actual intensity and unpredictability of real combat.

[mantis108]

Like Brendan, I mean no disrespect to any style or person who focus mainly on forms as the central [re: only] training method in Kung Fu.

Also Brendan, this might come off harsh. My apologies to you if it upsets you. But I wish to make clear where I stand with the applications or rather the teaching methodology of today that I feel rather gone bad.

I think there are some good points made by everyone. I certainly can understand where some of you are coming from. However, I could not help but feel strongly uncomfortable with the idea that the line between "martial intent" and "technical merits" is being blurred and even eliminated by some martial arts "coaches". BTW, technical merits include the soundness of the design. I think this blurring is where todays decline in real Kung Fu begins.

The truth is you could have all the martial intent you want and you can not make a western boxing jab works like Bu Chui (filling punch) or vice versa. BTW, Bu Chui can be done with "inch" power type of fajing which the Jab obviously can not function well in that range. The possible technique combinations and available back up tools (ie Takedown or Chin Na) that each can have are haven and earth apart. Now I am not saying which is better, because they both simply work in their own context. Both need the intent - the martial intent - to work and there is no a question about that. However, without understanding the technical merits, which means the "body feel" of the move, no one is going to use neither of them effectively. Often people don't feel they are capable of using a certain techniques mainly because they have not acquired the true technical merits or body feel if you will. We must also remember that the application of a move in the context of the form is vastly different from the move standing alone on its own. That's why value of a form should never be underestimated.

Thinking (martial intent) is abstract. Knowing (technical merits) is concrete. The process of Knowing or rather developing technical merits in Praying Mantis is unique and thorough. It is really more than just practicing form and "seeing the obvious applications". I recommend reading Master Wong Hon Fun's (7 star PM) book to understand the stages of training, which employs different methodologies to help students to attain Kung Fu. I think it is the responsibility of the instructors to "work hard" as well. They must demand the students to drill the moves to the specifications of the style [re: well thought out technique combinations] not just to will the moves [organized chaos] with or without martial intent. So what is missing in todays training is not necessarily the martial intent but rather the technical merits which I believe is not being passed on to the next generation due to complacency or rather status quo of some instructors who either not interested or lack the courage and/or knowledge to rectify the situation. Personally, I am jaded by poor plausible excuses in defense of status quo. Something needs to be done if we want Kung Fu to grow healthily.

Mantis108

[ursa major]

Originally posted by B.Tunks
... It is not specific to Wah Lum that there are no applications taught to all of the techniques of the system. In fact, up until recent times, it was like this for many chinese martial arts...

... In fact, in many systems, teaching applications was thought to cloud the head and prevent spontaneous and appropriate reaction during combat...

Wry sardonic commentary... right ? This is spoken in jest ?

UM.

[B.Tunks]

Mantis 108.

Actually you're right on all counts.
b.t

[spiralstair]

It could be that as mankind wages war from further and further away(think smart bombs; not fists) the martial arts are undergoing a similar metamorphisis. Some modern schools may go decades without one of their students being in a life-threatening 'hands on' situation. One could say that these schools are finding new ways to wring 'value' from the old fighting methods without actually having their students bleed.

Proper emphasis on conditioning, the five kinds of strength, technical ability, and the internal psychological changes that comes with a developed fighting skill should never leave a martial arts school. Otherwise, let's just dance, the music's better.

Testing ability through the expression of a style's method of application should certainly be a requirement for those who plan to continue on the legacy of that style by becoming a teacher.To think that a martial art ONLY has value through fighting expression, or that is its most valuable contribution to modern society is, IMHO, making it less then it could be.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

How many of you took computer classes, typing, Internet access, how to use a mouse, etc.? Somehow you all manage to get on the Internet using a computer and post all without leaving a clue as to who was formally trained and who learned on their own. 'nuff said.

[Taz]

I can only comment on my own personal experiences and the two person sets and exercises we train with are combat. I know this because of the bruising on my arms and legs from blocking real strikes and guess what if I don't block I can get real hurt. We do these exercises with no padding or equipment and teaches us both reaction to strikes using mantis strategies and techniques, distancing from each other. There are also levels within this type of training and at this point we are combining techniques where they would fit in. I apologize that for me it is difficult to describe the training more fully but it is best learned by doing. It is tough and yes I think all students are a little nervous when doing it because if you are training with someone stronger who hits harder it hurts. But the only way to improve is to stay in there. It simultes combat because you are actually striking hard with intent to hit your opponent and it is he/her job to block, get out of the way, etc. It is agile because there are footwork responses as well. It is hard to understand unless you experience it. I'm not sure it can just be watched and understood to a large degree. For me this is the first time I have experienced such intense training. Lastly, it is progressive with better skilled students hitting easier so skills can be obtained. My final thougths, many students come to the school and claim they wish to be san sau or ultimate fighting and they are the first to leave. If they stay a month I'm surprised. They often like to hit but do not like to get hit. The real reality of fighting. I think the bruises on their arms and legs are too real for them and the fantasy world of movies and TV are more in what they want. I think all those who have this burning desire to fight should be exposed to this type of training and I'm sure it will answer their questions and open their eyes. When ever I do this drills my heart is racing and I'm squaring off to fight. It feels like the real deal to me. So, there are ma schools out there that teach fighting in a real format not just the finishing moves to a fight but the moves that get you there. And then there are schools that focus on form training. Both are fine beacause they each will find their own niche and students.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Taz,
Excellent and insightful post. Unfortunately a school can't be everything to everyone. If you go hard you lose students who don't want to go to work the next day all bruised and battered. If you don't go hard you lose the students who want the hard core training. It all depends on what the students wants out of the training. Like you said, the ones that want to be bad a$$ fighters usually don't have the heart to do what it takes. Others just want to work out and learn something different. Shrfu John likes to get up close and personal and I'm sure he's lost a few potential students as well as brought some in because of how he teaches.

Whether you simulate fighting through forms, two man sets or sparring it's your choice and you should choose a school and teach accrodingly. But the only way to really learn how to fight is to fight. Not politically correct these days but that's how it worked in the past and that's the reality today.

[carly]

you can teach sparring to students who want to spar and forms to people who want to emphasize forms - you don't have to scare any student away by requiring that they fight.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

carly,
That's my take on it. I believe it's possible to strike a balance between being commercial (good workout, learn some forms) and traditional (physical contact, use the moves) within one school. If it's your full time job you have to offer what the masses want but within that you can offer more intense training for the hardcore students.

[flem]

six or seven years ago i had a student who was attending a going away party for a friend. at the end of the night the two said good night and parted. he heard her yell for help moments later, he ran to the sound of her voice(around the corner). she was being accosted by two males in a parking lot. he approached, was soon involved in a scuffle with both of them between cars. while one of the men held his shirt he dislocated the thugs arm at the elbow-
all this without smokebombs and hopping around behind him/them(ha ha 18 elders)
did he score that night? no. could he have, yes. but his integrity did not allow it

sweat blood learn kung fu


sifu a.d.

[Taz]

Flem,

I guess you lost me. I thought this thread was about applications and how you learn how to use them. What value does your post add. You are so eager to poke fun at others 18 Elders on matters you have little to no concept of. The "fish" story is interesting at another time or thread, but I would prefer to get back on the topic and discuss the methods to learn the kungfu apps and applying them. By the way, the closing off of your opponent to move behind them is very effective technique.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

(Redirect back to topic) I think one of the things the story shows is that you have to fight the environment (between cars), meaning you don't always have room to do the fancy techniques so be prepared to improvise. That means think on a tangent to your technique and not be confined to the drill you're accustomed to practicing.

As for "methods to learn the kungfu apps and applying them" my first Kenpo teacher had us come to class once wearing the shoes we normally wear during the day (Karate trains barefoot) so we could see if anything we learned needed to be adjusted to fit our daily attire. I actually yanked my sandals off in a fight years later because I was used to fighting barefoot. Something to think about.

[18elders]

i don't think i would use the smoke bombs, i have asthma so it would probably bother my lungs!

[flem]

taz,
my bad, i wrote thinking everyone here knew that i was a wl sifu then.
we practiced applications that work, which means we extracted movements from the forms and trained how they work we concentrated on joint breaks, throat strikes etc., without any emphasis on tournament type stuff. i posted this simply as an example to show that the regular class worked fine when needed.
anyway, the crack towards 18 elders and i goes back a ways he took it fine-ask him
what matters do i have no concept of? applications, smoke bombs,?


18elders,
yes you are right it probably would because as i turn to follow your movement you'd be standing there in your own smoke choking!lol

[18elders]

no problem, i welcome your wise cracks, sometimes the board gets a bit dull.

Anyway, so how long were you a wl sifu?
What made you decide to leave?

[yu shan]

18 Old Men

You`ve been married too long, your getting soft brother! flem`s a panzy, note the bio! Why does this panzy a*s not give info? Give me an address?
As for apps! You are clueless... keep figuring! Don`t forget the "WAY' of getting in touch with you flem. Pleeze!

kick ass and take names 101st and Marines!

[Tainan Mantis]

Flem,
So it is you!
Please say hi to the wife and kids.

Yushan,
Did I misread your post?
It seems like you insulted your shrbo and shrfu's brother-in-law.

[Tainan Mantis]

Flem,
So it is you!
Please say hi to the wife and kids.

Yushan,
Did I misread your post?
It seems like you insulted your shrbo and shrfu's brother-in-law.

[18elders]

not getting soft brother, i have known who flem is for a while

[flem]

i am glad you guys can read between the lines, i only entered this forum to mess with you guys(lol)

yu shan,

why do you take such offense, you on the juice or something. my guys can use it, why don't you bring your guys down for "tea" sometime (since your job is to travel). maybe you all can enlighten them on how it works,

as i told hua lin via email i don't care who knows me, if i know them, i just feel a need to protect my family, i'm old school, not alot of trust in the web.

tainan,

hello i will tell them. i thought you of all people would have figured me out long ago. you suspected yes?

18 elders,

was it flem jr. that tippied you off at that dinner there? btw, i was cussing myself a long time ago, in the beginning when i screwed up and called you 18 old men (remember), you corrected me- you see your shrfu taught that form and that was what he called it then lol

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I hate to break up the family reunion but could somone let me know when yu shan will be getting in the UFC or Pride ring so I can watch and learn?

[18elders]

nope, wasn't flem jr, your comment before about your knees being bad. I kept telling john it was you but he wouldn't believe me. anyway hope all is well with you and the family up there.
Who would've know we could bash each other online all the time and we were all out eating dinner together a few months ago having some beers(not tea).
Enjoyed the online sparring, i think some good info came out of it.

[flem]

18 elders,

yes i agree, don't know what i'll do with all the extra time now i thought yu shan had me on the knee thing-
thanks for taking it so well bro

[18elders]

no problem, so you thought for sure jr. flem sold you out at the dinner, his nickname in basketball!!! Ha!!!
Still remember white monkey?

[flem]

18 elders,

believe it or not he sleeps with his ball- great white hope! yeah, he was telling that guy who lives at your school that i use that name playing quake 2 online, so i immediately thought, oh man, whats chance that anyone else could have that name. everytime i looked at you or your shrfu i thought man the cats outta the bag!
of course i still know white monkey, left side and right.

[BeiTangLang]

Northern Praying Mantis forum guys,.....remember??
:rolleyes:
:D

[yu shan]

You are my kf uncle, and I had things figured out before the knee thing. But who really gives a crap. It has been fun and exhilarating. No juice man, I`m black-Irish married to a Puerto-Rican who needs lady viagra. Back to the thread before we get into trouble, saw your white ape form done single and two-person while in Taiwan. Hopefully if Shr ZhengZhong comes to US this summer, inquire about his way. Really good stuff, and obtainable for us old guys. Did AD tell you what style of Mantis is your ape? I would like to hear from Tainan about what I saw in Taiwan.

[Tainan Mantis]

Steals the Peach.
There was a thread on this several months ago.

Yushan,
The form you saw in Tainan is not related to Flem's version.
Although it does have the trademark technique "white ape teals the peach."

According to somewhat reliable accounts Flem's version, I saw it some months ago, is the one original verson that decends from the earliest days of 7* PM.

Since then there have been many other versions with similar sounding names as well as other forms known as "section 2" etc.

[Michael Dasargo]

It's good to read yet another intellegint and straightforward post from you. You said it all with your title..."Applications". Chan Poi has won the fight. He's lived to be as old as he is and still have those incredible physical capabilities. His GongFu is good.

To be a master, is to master oneself.

I've noticed a lot of talk of "fighting" and "Martial Arts". It's a dangerous world. Brendon is one of the few people I know who sincerely understands the nature of violence, and traces no lines of segragation between fighting and MA. For those who have only been exposed to controlled enviroments, I wish you hightend awareness of your circumstances.

Violence conforms to no rules, and socializes to no parameters.

My advice would be to follow Chan Poi's path if you can. Why try to find violence when there are those trying desperately to escape the lifestyle? The fool trains the sword so that someday he may cut, the wise man trains so that someday he may not have to cut.

Live and let live.

M.Dasargo

[cha kuen]

Mike , my brotha I agree

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Michael Dasargo Violence conforms to no rules, and socializes to no parameters. Here Here!!!

[i]The fool trains the sword so that someday he may cut, the wise man trains so that someday he may not have to cut...
M.Dasargo [/B]AMEN!!!