View Full Version : Tuan Ta Form...

04-15-2001, 08:08 PM
Can someone give me some info on this form? I'm learning it right now from a book I ordered a long time ago and just found it today. The author is Lai Hung and its called The secrets of Northern Shaolin Kung - Fu.
The History, Form, and Function of Pek Sil Lum.

I didn't find any secrets in the book but the did list a form called Tuan Ta.

Kung Lek
04-15-2001, 08:49 PM

Tun Ta, is the sixth form from the Northern Shaolin (Bak Sil Lum) 10 core sets.

Tun Ta (pronounced "Doon Da") means "quick strike" or "short strike"

The form is usually the first of the ten core sets learned by NSL students.
There are also two preliminary sets before the ten core sets they being , Lien Bo Chuan and Tan Tui.

It is also worthy of note that there are quite a few weapons sets available in the system as well as a good variety of Augmentation exercises such as Iron palm and Iron Shirt in the curriculum.

Tun Ta is a relatively short form when compared to other sets in the system, it is also the leats demanding of the ten core sets which is why it is the first set taught in most north Shaolin schools.

The system it belongs to "Bak Sil Lum" was created by KyuYu Cheong who melded his knowledge of Shaolin Kung fu with his knowledge of Muslim Kung Fu and propogated the Shaolin Kung Fu as Bak Sil Lum.

It is a complete system.

There are some highly useful techniques in Tun Ta, everything from single and double palm strikes to the aerial tornado kick (365 degree spinning inside crescent kick) as well as what is known as "Chain Punching" in the wing chun world, front leg broom sweeps, back leg broom sweeps and a variety of other techniques covering punches, kicks, grabs, locks and so on.

There is a lot of material in this one form.
Also, this form is rather nice to look at and competes well against modern wu shu forms as do other sets from the system.


Kung Lek

04-15-2001, 08:51 PM
That may be a weird spelling of DUAN DA - Short Strike or Short fist.

There are several routines with this name. I know one.

It has fewer kicks than many northern routines and lots of things like elbow breaks, chasing, turning to attack from a chase, leg sweeps of several types, a couple of Qin Na techniques...basically all aimed at close to mid range with some closing techniques to get you from long range into middle to close range.

Of course, this may not be what the book you have does....

04-15-2001, 08:58 PM
WHOA...thanx for the info...that's really helpful.
what about the book though, have u guys ever seen it or heard of it?

Kung Lek
04-15-2001, 09:33 PM

are you saying that the form is laid out in the book?

winglam has the whole north shaolin system on video tape if you want to check out more material from this system.


Kung Lek

04-15-2001, 09:42 PM
www.harmoniousfist.com/tunda.htm (http://www.harmoniousfist.com/tunda.htm)

is it the same form?

04-15-2001, 10:11 PM
ya the whole form is laid out in the book from Shifu Lai Hung. Have you heard of him?

04-15-2001, 10:13 PM
Hey! nice video!!! it is the same form except that in the beggining, there was a kick missing.

Kung Lek
04-15-2001, 10:50 PM

I have not heard of Lai Hung. I don't know about the book either.

I do practice North Shaolin Kung Fu though and recognize forms from the system.

you will find that the essence is the same regardless of the school or practitioner, but there are subtleties that you will sometimes find in some versions and not in others.

for instance, in the form demonstrated in the video that has been posted from harmonious fist, there is a high knife kick inserted before the shuffle step and back fist where the version I do does not have a kick until after the shuffle step and back fist, however, the techniques do take place in the same row, in the same sequence so it does contain all the elements.

Also, there are smaller differences in hand techniques, but the sequence/direction and essence of the form is the same.

I have now seen 5 different versions of Tun Ta from 5 different sources (including the school i attend).

The essence is carried across all 5 and each is totally recognizable as the form Tun Ta.


Kung Lek

04-15-2001, 11:01 PM
you see, my northern shaolin school did not teach this at all. They did forms like rainbow fists and such. check out the site at http://www.cyberus.ca/~badger

please give me some feedback on what u see from the site.

Kung Lek
04-15-2001, 11:52 PM

It is worthy to note that in North Shaolin Kung Fu there are five major branches.

Those being Wa, Fa, Pao, Cha and Sillum.

There are many subsets and systems under these.

North Shaolin or Bak Sil Lum from Kyu Yu Cheong is one of the five major branches.

The North Shaolin available through the site you have posted may be a conglomaration of sets from other branches, or post 1928 sets.

Bak Sil Lum however was codified and systematized to its zenith by Kyu Yu Cheong as late as 1935 from his previous instruction.

Systems such as "preying mantis" are considered North Shaolin but they are entirely different from Kyu Yu Cheong's system.

The same can be said for any Northern Shaolin system that is not derived from the major 5 branches.

The five major branches were determined by the chinese in the early part of the 20th century in an effort to catalog the known martial systems of all china.

There is further derivation found in styles such as Choy Li Fut where you have a mix of southern styles and Northern styles blended together into a whole system.

There are two main styles of Choy Li fut those being Heung Sing and Bak Sing.

But the style of "Bak Sil Lum" is always containing the sets as passed down by master Kyu Yu Cheong. The only differences are found in whether or not the teacher has been given extra weapons forms that are northern otherwise the ten core sets and the two preliminary sets are always in essence the same.

I have not been exposed to any of the sets that I saw at the web site you posted, but that doesn't mean anything. (I didn't thouroughly go through it either :) )

At any given time, there are at least 400 different styles of Chinese martial arts being propogated on this planet.
Some Shaolin,some taoist, others being village systems, others being family styles and yet others being composites of a few different styles.
Some systems are complete and many are not entirely there any more for a variety of reasons.


Kung Lek

04-16-2001, 12:22 AM
that's a great form! i have the book you are talking about, it seems to be a good representation of the style. Lai Hung is only 3rd generation after grandmaster Ku Yu Cheong. his teacher, Long Zi Xiang studied both Northern Shaolin from Ku Yu Cheong and Choy Li Fut from Tan Sam, so their Northern Shaolin has a little bit of Choy Li Fut flavor in my opinion.

04-16-2001, 12:58 AM
beiquan how do u find the book? Tuan Ta is a pretty long form and if you notice that if u watch the video, the form is a bit different then the one in the book. Which would u find more effective if that makes any sense.

I know that Kung Le said that there are some differnet aspects but im watching the video to see how the flow of the form and some of the positioning goes and looking at the book for the instructions. Is that a good idea. By video I mean the clip that is posted on this post.

04-16-2001, 01:18 AM
Actually I think it was beiquan who posted the video in Cyberkwoon.. right?

04-16-2001, 02:14 AM
Sifu Li Hung is a lower classmate of Sifu Wong Jack Man but Sifu Li learned Choy Li Fut first then went on to learn NSL. He was also the first kung fu master to fight Tai Boxers in the 1960s? He made it to the championship round. He is about in his 70's now but when he was younger, he was hell and was in alot of street fights. One of the few early kung fu masters who pushed fighting over health. He is very well known in HK but I think is living in Sacramento, California.

His pictures in his book does not do him justice but then again he over 70 years old. He did add a kick in the beginning of the set, that is his addition. When he does the set, there is a flavor of Choy Li Fut to it, since that is his main style. In spite of the slight differences in the set, the core of the set is there. There is always going to be differences between masters, even when they learn the set together: not everyone is built the same or observe the same movements the same way. That's why CMA is an art. :) :cool:

04-16-2001, 02:34 AM
We also have the "shaolin" version of Duan Da available for free, just go on CyberKwoon and click on "training" in the Articles box, find the "What do Special Members Get ?" article.
The form is there, fully illustrated ;-)

enjoy ;-) :D :cool:

CyberKwoon.com Forums (http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/forum.php)
Martial Arts Databases

04-16-2001, 03:07 AM
JigGa -- i like the book a lot, it has good basic info on the style. the form on the video that you guys have seen is being performed by my sifu, so i have to say that his "flavor" of Northern Shaolin is more familiar to me... my sifu is performing the form much faster than we usually do it, you definitely should practice everything slowly and carefully before trying to add this kind of rhythm in your practice.

good luck!

04-16-2001, 03:23 AM
that was your sifu? wow, he's good. He's flow is really good. Where is this school located?

04-16-2001, 03:24 AM
Oh and does anyone have any kind of video clips of Shi Yan Ming?
Hopefully in a year or two I will train with him in NY.

Shaolin Master
04-16-2001, 03:31 AM
Wah Fa Pow Cha HONG (not Siu Lum)
and KYC Bak Siu Lum is not Hong nor Siu Lum(general) as such.
The Shaolin Duan Da Form on cyberkwoon is VERY Different and is pretty recent invention.
Oh by the way FFab Wuziquan(The form you put is not WUZU)...ie not Southern it is Northern.

Anyway yes Forms carry different flavours and can differ slightly from teacher to teacher and generation to generation but the essence should remain.

Shi Chan Long

Kung Lek
04-16-2001, 04:06 AM

SM-yes I have heard and read that Hong (red) is considered one of the 5 major branches, but there are only two sets of this left, big red boxing and little red boxing and little else. If someone were to propogate the Hong system with anything more than these two sets they would be adding from other systems or creating sets within the school.

Hong Gia, is not the same thing before anyone brings up that point. Hong Gia is another way of saying "Hung Gar" but it is of a lineage other than the larger more well known and established Hung family lineages.

Sil Lum is one of the 5 Main branches in the here and now and this can be verified through various organizations that propogate Shaolin Kung Fu.

Big and small red boxing is still taught today at the Shaolin Temple. This is really interesting considering a good deal of the material taught at today's Shaolin temple is primarily modern wu shu.
It is nice to know there is still some traditional and ancient boxing styles being taught.

FFAB- Your site is an excellent resource site for any martial artist beginner to advanced. Excellent work.
The set you have placed in the area you have mentioned is the short strike in name only and indeed is not comparable to the Tun Ta of KYC NSL.

The set you have there is quite easily recognizable as "Shaolin" however. Those movements are fundaments and basic techniques.
Surprisingly, most of those moves are found in the first exercises that my sifu teaches to the beginners after they have learned stances, moving in stances and basic punches and kicks. We practice 12 rows (not tan tui) of basic shaolin techniques. all the techniques with the exception of the one legged double palm press shown in your chart are taught left and right side along with a few other techniques.
Sifu calls this Ta Mo's 12 basic routines. It prepares the students for understanding in the formal sets.

this has turned into an intersting topic with all the contributions.
NorthShaolin, I have to hand it to you, you have proven to be a really decent source of info on Bak Sil Lum and Kyu Yu Cheong. You do your sifu proud :)


Kung Lek

Shaolin Master
04-16-2001, 04:28 AM
Actually Xiao Dao Hong Quan are earlier evolutions of Hong Quan.
And well....Hong Quan (The northern one of the five )does exist. in fact in the Cha Quan system passed from Zhang Weng Guang there are 4 forms of Hong Quan incorporated that are not Cha nor Xiao/Da Hong but rather Northern Hong.

PS : In China the 5 are represented as stated earlier this may differ in HK or US. Doesn't matter not important.

True I must agree and also thank Northern Shaolin for wonderful information always regarding Northern Shaolin.


04-16-2001, 04:58 AM
whoa u guys are filled with info!
Shaolinmaster do you teach or have a school?

04-16-2001, 05:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The Shaolin Duan Da Form on cyberkwoon is VERY Different and is pretty recent invention.
Oh by the way FFab Wuziquan(The form you put is not WUZU)...ie not Southern it is Northern.[/quote]
I agree, the Shaolin Duan Da we present in the Free version is indeed very recent and has no relationship with the KYC lineage, just wanted to point out various "difference" from a same name / origin (shaolin).

Shaolin Master, I am sorry but unless you saw (means you are a Special Member in CyberKwoon ;-) ) the Wuziquan and have better info than me (always possible ;-) ) I am sure that Wuziquan is classified in Southern China ;-) FYI we also have about 5 forms from Wuzu quan, most waiting to be published ;-)

Kung Lek, Thank you for your kind words ;-) we are just trying to make it THE resource for MA lovers, as I said before maybe our main problem is that we want to focus on MA and not in hype or very noisy topics :-D

I am confident that everyone really interested in Kungfu will join us, one day or another :-P

CyberKwoon.com (http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/index.php)

CyberKwoon.com Forums (http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/forum.php)
Martial Arts Databases

Shaolin Master
04-16-2001, 06:02 AM
Actually I am not a sp.member, I saw it years ago in ALMA and said what that's my first form of Wu Zi Quan classified as southern how could it be. It wasn't until a few years later that I sourced the book (which was good resource) that was scanned in. But definately not known as southern according to our school, I mean the Hei Hu Quan set itself and Jing Gang Quan etc.... (original styles of the 5 founders) The ones after the three fundamental routines are even more northern than anything. But it doesn't matter it is inevitably your perogative :)

Wuzuquan, well that is definately southern :).

PS : Jig Ga, there are many good places to learn from .... seek and thought shall find :)