Ninjutsu and Christianity

[dre_doggX]

I want to learn Ninjutsu, but I dont want to be involved with any spritual aspects, beyond the metaphysics of qi. but are they any schools in does Bujinkan or American Ninjutsu teach espoinage and stuff like that, without the spritualism.

I see it like this. Deep Physics(which nonmartial artist understand), explains Metaphysics( Which mostly martial artist understand), Deep Metaphycis could lead to Sprituality.

I Dont want that.
Iam a christian (Seventh Day Adventist). is Ninjutsu safe.

I hope so because I dont know of any kungfu styles that practice espionage.

[Vapour]

There is a guy in my taijiquan class who had the same question. He decided to continue tjq after he had chat with my instructor.

Firstly, whether meditation itself is against christianity is a point of debate. Number of classical writings of Christianity do describe mystic experience such as feeling of oneness with Christ

But more than anything, it's lot to do with your instructor's idea about what meditation is for. If your instructor is into harmony-with-qi&universe stuffs, he might imply that meditation or entire purpose of doing martial arts are spiritual. (Check my thread "MA is Satan's Tool:)). On the other hand, if the guy is down-to-earth type of guy, he might tell you that the purpose of meditation is to train your awareness and calmness when facing opponent.

I think discussing this matter with your instructor is the best course of action in my view.

[ZIM]

dre_doggX:

I'm not certain how espionage works within your beliefs, but i'll leave that behind and simply pose it as a question for you, ok?

On to metaphysics: you are Seventh-Day Adventist. While I know thats a fairly strict religion, it may or may not in fact be at odds with qiqong practices. That doesn't mean you wouldn't have explaining to do. LOL

From my understanding, 7th-Dayers believe in continual Revelation, correct? That God still maintains contact with His people and teaches them accordingly? Much of qiqong is involved with getting in touch with your body's own energy systems [God given, in this sense, so no problem there] and IF there are spiritual contexts to it [there are not always] it might be termed as being aware of an 'inner light' [Christ, if you will, thats fine] and addressing 'that of God' in others. FWIW, this may in fact be a source of continual Revelation- I certainly can't say how God would choose to talk, can you? 'Ye shall know them by their fruits...'

For comparison, check with the Gospel of John, wherein he speaks of 'inner light' and spiritual baptism... these may not truly be in accordance with 7th Day Adventism as a whole, but they can't be at odds, surely?

Last. Nobody, I would think, would require you to become Buddhist or Taoist. The philosophies of each are OK, but it's probably the Idol thing that bothers you. Separating those aspects might be helpful. 'Trust, and a way shall be opened for thee...'
Friendly Quaker advice...

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i wouldnt refuse to go to a school that had christian teachings for that reason alone.

i think you're being a pansy.

[Budokan]

The sad thing about this post is he's probably serious. More's the pity. He doesn't want to get involved in any of the spiritual aspect of MA because he's afraid he'll go to the land of fire and brimstone. But he's okay with ESPIONAGE.:rolleyes:

Which means he's okay with assassination, lies and duplicity. Nice. Real nice.:rolleyes:

[Budokan]

Ashida Kim is always recruiting spies...maybe you can join up with him and be a hit man to start whittling down that lengthy sh*t list of his...?

Good luck with your issues, Sky Pilot.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"Which means he's okay with assassination, lies and duplicity. Nice. Real nice."

lmao

[Laughing Cow]

dre-doggx.

In the end you will have to go and see for yourself, after that YOU will need to decide if you want to study there or not.

In every MA there are People that shy away from certain aspects and others that accept them regardless of their religion or belief system.

The REAL question is not what they teach, but will YOU let those teachings affect you, if you got doubts from the beginning ....

Cheers.

P.S.: I know many Christians that study and teach many an Asian MA, some even do so on Church premises.

[Christopher M]

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm
"In Eastern Orthodoxy, hesychasm is a form of experiential prayer... bears some superficial resemblances to prayer or meditation in other Eastern religions. For example, it may involve specific body postures, and be accompanied by very deliberate breathing patterns."

http://uucfl.org/labyrin.htm
"Christian churches used the labyrinth for prayer and meditation as early as 350... they symbolized the one true path to Christian salvation."

http://www.kolbenet.com/rosary/
"The Rosary is a meditation to help us come closer to Jesus and Mary. By meditating on the mysteries of the Rosary, we can better understand the lives of Jesus and Mary."

http://www.digiserve.com/mystic/Christian/
"Mysticism is concerned with the nature of reality, the individual's struggle to attain a clear vision of reality, and the transformation of consciousness that accompanies such vision."

http://www.kheper.net/topics/christianmysticism/PseudoDionysius.htm
"Dionysius can be considered the founder of Christian mysticism. Indeed, the term 'mysticism' itself in its present usage derives from him."

http://www.byzantinefranciscans.org/theosis.htm
"St. Francis urged his followers (indeed, all Christians) to undertake through asceticism, prayer, the Holy Mysteries, and acts of service. This process of becoming god, of constant conversion, of participation in His divine energies, is theosis."

And so on...

[Oso]

Nice list Chris M but he's a 7th day.


I think there is a bit of hypochrisy in what he's seeking, for sure.

If he's serious, then he should probably just find some Karate for God group and train.

Ninjitsu methodology, as I understand it, doesn't leave much room for turning the other cheek. The main objective would be 'in and out' w/o detection but you would have to be willing to 'do unto him' before he does you.


GDA, thanks for cracking the ice on this one, I wanted to blast it right away but didn't want to in case he was really serious.

I think it's safe to say that all asian martial arts are at least in part sculpted by the social and religious environments of the people that created them. You can't not try and grasp that facet of it and get the 'why' of a lot of what's going on. And that is mostly non-Judeo-Christian. IMHO.

[ZIM]

I think it's safe to say that all asian martial arts are at least in part sculpted by the social and religious environments of the people that created them. You can't not try and grasp that facet of it and get the 'why' of a lot of what's going on. And that is mostly non-Judeo-Christian. IMHO.

Agreed completely! Respect for that is important. I really don't feel that conflicts with anything... and 'respect' does not necessarily mean 'to follow', IMHO. No need to be afraid of it.

Its sad though, to be fearful of the evanescent & misty, while not seeing the real.

Maybe enlisting for a good US Army course would suit? Certainly less problems and more to the point.

Chris M.- A good list, wasn't familiar with some of them. It shows that Christianity has its own approach to these, if one will give it a chance.

[tsunami surfer]

Since you are a collage student why waste tuition bucks on a martial arts class? Get that degree and then apply to the CIA if you are hot for the real espionage gig. They even recruit on campuses across the country. Check their web site they even tell you how to apply. Just hope you dont mind working on Saturday.

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by dre_doggX
...is Ninjutsu safe.

I hope not! Wouldn't be much of a martial art if it were!

Anything is safe from dodgy made-up metaphysics if your mind is trained too. Is Seventh Day Adventism safe?!

Take responsibility for your mind and body (in this life!).

Most Christian freak sites seem to suggest that training ki is evil because it tries to give you some access to a secret magical power, or an inner strength (heaven help Christians who can think for themselves!) or even access to a part of an all-pervasive godhood...

But don't ask me, I think it's all crap. Try asking your priest/preacher.

Apologies for the vitriol interspersed with possibly sound advice... I'm currently having trouble reconciling my usual respect for everyone's beliefs with the fact that we are about to enter a war started by fundamentalist Christians and Moslems... and am inclined to think that if you want to follow Jesus you can come to me for the nails.


I hope so because I dont know of any kungfu styles that practice espionage.

Apart from that, I'm with Budokan... WTF is this espionage pish? Is watching too many Bond movies safe?!:D

[Mr Punch]

Oh, and don't forget, Jesus aint down on record as flippin out and kickin the 'Virgin' Mary in the head... doesn't mean it didn't happen I suppose...!:D

[Repulsive Monkey]

My Masters techaer was a Grand Master of Taiji and converted to being a strict 7th day adventist and felt in no way that his faith compromised his Christian beliefs.

Can't see what you problem is!!

[Internal Boxer]

I want to become a Ninja turtle, but I have been told Pizza's are the food of satan, does this mean I should not train in the art of the green reptile????:rolleyes:

[ZIM]

I was a little confused regarding the Seventh-dayers, so I looked some of it up. I'm still confused.

Apparently, they're not accepted by the 'mainstream' bible-bangin' evangelicals, either. Lumping dre_dogg into their ranks is not appropriate 'cuz it comes from a diffrent direction.

Joining the CIA or the Army might not be an option to be pursued.. I'm none to sure on that. It depends, I guess, on how the Gov't is regarded... as Babylon, or whatever. How very odd. As it happens, the Branch Davidians were an offshoot of the 7th dayers.

Why ninjutsu?? Well, I give up. Maybe if the Branch Davidians had a couple of ninjas.....


and am inclined to think that if you want to follow Jesus you can come to me for the nails. Well, if you meet buddha on the road, etc etc. ;) Maybe you're right!

[wiz cool c]

Hi ihave a shodan in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu "Ninjutsu" and would like to offer you my opinion. First of they dont teach alot of espionage stuff much anymore. Some teachers do teach it but you have to be with them for a long time and have to go out of your way to get it sometime. As far as the spiritail part of it I would say it is inbetted in the system. And i would say there way of looking at life is a negative one. Kinda goastly. The people in Bujinkan are *****s they dont spar and think they know it all.

[GeneChing]

I lost students before because one of my teacher kept a large ancestral altar to Lord Kwan. (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/70121.html) I remember one catholic student in particular. He was very earnest in his practice. One day, after about 3-5 months, he asked about the altar, funny since it was the dominent decoration in the kwoon, I mean you can't miss it at all. His face dropped when he realised it was some sort of pagan thing. :rolleyes:

Personally, my pursuit of the martial arts has alwasy been a spiritual one. I love what it does to your state of consciousness. It is a tremendous vehicle for personal transformation. But I fully respect personal belief systems and if they come into conflict with your practice, I'd certainly veer you towards the the spiritual path. Choose the way of goodness first. Be a good person. Then if you are still amongst us here in the warrior world, your choice of practice will be self evident.

[David Jamieson]

The General occupies a prestigious place in my household and all incense is offered to him first.

I ask the General to help me practice before i practice and i thank the general for helping me practice when I'm done.

He serves as a point of reflection for myself and as a reminder of what the manifestation of martial ability is to me.

I also offer tobacco to my totems and ask them for help and thank them for help I've recieved.

I think of Kwan yin when I am in a line up or a traffic jam and people all around me are getting on my nerves.

I think about Lao tzu when work pressures mount and I have to find a way to not let it get to me, the Tao is excellent for this in it's teachings vis a vis the Tao te ching.

I think about what the buddha taught before I surrender to faith.

I think about Jesus when I see the homeless, the hungry and stories in the news of impending war.

I think about all these teachers of that which is not known when I wish to get in touch with that unknown to help myself in some way.

In the end,and in reponse to the first post, why are you asking here? Ask your priest what you can anbd cannot do in accordance to the faith you have chosen. If theirs hard and fast rules then you have no say anyway.

If you are going to follow, then do your best at doing what you are told to do. No shame in that.

cheers

[shaolinboxer]

7th day and ninjutsu have a lot in common.

[Vapour]

You might not have lost your Catholic student if you explained him that Lord Kwan was a historical figure.

http://flyingeagleacademy.com/guanyu.shtml

[Kristoffer]

"I also offer tobacco to my totems and ask them for help and thank them for help I've recieved."

LOL :D

[David Jamieson]

Kristoffer-

I'm serious. Don't you have any totems? They're more than a snack you know!

cheers

[Kristoffer]

Kung Lek - our totems died out with the old days Vikings :)

[GeneChing]

... I offer it to my guanxi whenever I go to China. In fact, I just got this great pic of a Taiwanese folk lion dance where they are offering the lion a carton of cigarettes instead of lettuce and lucky money.

I guess for some tobacco is great medicine. It just got messed up by Phillip Morris.

[kenso]

I think this is the first time ever that I hoped someone was a troll and not serious.