Why I left Wah Lum

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Here you go guys. You keep asking whay everyone left, all "the greats" etc., so rather than talk rumor I opend a thread for you to speak your mind. Please don't speak for someone else or make assumptions. Let Dean, Sean, Tracy, Art D, Mike and others speak for themselves if they wish to comment. If you have an issue then speak up or shut up.

Moderators,
Please allow a little leeway on this one so we can clear up all the crap in the rest of the threads. Thanks.

I'll go first. I haven't left. I haven't exhausted the material I have now so I'm not real interested is learning something else. I got tired of starting over every time I went to a new school so I made up my mind to stick with one until I exhausted the material.

I've had some issues in the past and still have some just like I did in all the schools where I've trained. Nothing I wish to go public about so don't ask. I'm loyal enough to stick it out through the tough times but renegade enough that I'll probably get kicked out before quitting.

yu shan,
You're outspoken enough to speak your mind as I believe a real MA should be so you can go next. BTW, I wasn't in the area when you were here last. Maybe next time.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I had resolved myself to avoid this issue, but.. i feel equally responsible to set the record straight..

History: I came to Wah Lum in 1990 bringing my son, Sam, to begin his training in what i believed to be the most authentic Chinese training available in the area (i was right).. i spent some time in the Kung Fu program, but quickly found that Tai Chi and its application to be superior "for me"... I quickly advanced in the Tai Chi program, won several major competitions, started instructing Tai Chi students and within the first 4 years had MC's confidence.. the next 5 years were spectacular, insightful, and greatly beneficial for me.. MC took time and patience with several others and myself to advance our Tai Chi skills and personal lives.. MC brought many world famous Masters to the temple and much was learned/shared.. At some point, and i'm not sure when, Suzy Chan decided to assume the leadership role for the Tai Chi program.. that was the beginning of the end for me and several others.. years of hard work and dedication were discarded in favor of Suzy's "interpretation" of Tai Chi.. That being said, i must qualify that statement by saying that Suzy has a profound and beautiful understanding of "movement", she has a reasonably strong internal power.. but, by my own understanding, a poor "interpretation" of the "essence" of Tai Chi.. and, and even poorer understanding of people skills..

The Events: I approached MC about an invitation i had received to do a seminar for a local Tai Chi group.. after some discussion, MC allowed me to teach the seminar.. some months later i approached MC about teaching some classes downtown at a local Wellness Center, again he allowed me to do so.. Now, after beginning to teach the downtown classes, Suzy found out that i had taught the seminar and was gravely concerned.. She pulled me aside and said that she had lost faith in me and that had betrayed Wah Lum.. now, here is where i may have erred.. i did not tell her that i had also received permission to be teaching the downtown classes (her negative response to the seminar was too frightening to add fuel to the fire).. none the less, i had signed up for this journey under MC and felt allegiance only to him.. Then the inevitable, Suzy found out that i was teaching downtown.. this was the end for her, she dismissed me in front of the students regardless of my assertions that MC had given me permission.. Subsequently, in a meeting between Suzy, GrandMaster Chan Pui and me, i asked MC to explain the situation and he said he didn't remember, then he said he might not have understood what i was asking.. in short, he did not back me, he failed to honor the permission he had given.. i will not go into the antics and accusations made by Suzy at that time or my own less than honorable response to the situation.. anyhow, a short time later i offered to take a polygraph examination in front of the students to set the record straight.. this angered Suzy and she accused me of calling MC a liar, then called me a liar.. since then i have heard that she intends to obtain an injunction barring me from the Temple if i return..

So there you have it, there was fault all the way around.. but, by my own account, ultimately.. Grandmaster Chan Pui failed to honor his own word, failed to back a faithful student, and failed to control the events of his own Temple.. in a private meeting between MC and me he said he was unhappy with the events and hoped i could come back, i respectfully declined in as much as Suzy would only look for more reasons to remove me.. i asked if he could intervene on my behalf, he said.. "it no work, she boss now".. a sad legacy for a great Master..

My humble apologies to those that may be offended by this post, it is only my most sincere and truest accounting of the events that led to me leaving the Temple.. I expect, and probably deserve, some criticizm in this matter.. but my intent is to offer insight into the how life at the Temple is challenging at many levels.. Yet, no one can deny MC's greatness as an ambassador of CMA and the quality of students that have passed through those doors.. This is as much as i will discuss publicly on this matter..

Peace, and be well..

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Boy I really did it this time. This one just might do me in but I'm tired of the rumor, insinuations, second hand info and misinformation.

Well, we all miss having you around but nothing lasts forever.

Doesn't sound like a lack of apps or quality of training to me. Like others, you just didn't fit in anymore. And that's probably how it should be since everyone can't stay there forever. The Temple is going through a time of change and we need to move aside and let the changes happen.

I remember Richard Allen coming back once and saying to me "You're still here? What's wrong with you?". I believe the intent at the Temple is learn and train and move on to teach others. Anyone that hangs around too long is pressing their luck. I liked having my kids around when they were kids but as adults it's tough living under one roof. Same goes for the Temple when you mature enough in the art. Fortunately for me I was able to move on while staying within the system but I feel I should have gone years ago. I've rubbed people the wrong way on more than one occassion. :)

Anyhow, got to make room for the next generation especially now with Mimi assuming more and more control. Sorry things went wrong for you but I'm sure you prefer to remember the good and not dwell on things you have no control over. Maybe it will smooth over some day so you can drop by without stirring controversery.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Indeed, training from MC was, as always, superior.. your insight is perhaps most appropriate.. perhaps he knew that the new regime and i would not marry well and took the opportunity to let nature take its course.. conjecture, but it works for me..

In any case, the time spent training directly with MC (and, fortunately there was a lot of it) was the best in my Martial Arts history.. it was as much training in living as it was in Martial Arts.. (as if there's a difference)..

I have let go of the hurt and feelings of betrayal.. now, i just miss the people, the general atmosphere of the Temple, and, yes, the Charisma of WL..

Be well.. and i wish you much success in your own adventure (you've earned it)..

[woliveri]

Started WL in 84. Went to China in 85 with MC.

I'm not going to be too verbose in this reply just because I don't have the time.

That being said, I left due to several reasons.

1. Essense of Kung Fu not being taught. To qualify, training of qi in Kung Fu (root training). Outside of WL I have learned this.

2. Essense of Taiji not being taught. Again, training of qi in Taiji (root training). Also correct training in alignment for push hands. Again, outside of WL I have learned this.

3. Restrictions on not being able to obtain this training elsewhere while still at the Temple.

4. Various politics in training seminars with other Masters. Specifically, SC getting daily personal training with Li En Jiao (I wrote Li Lian Jie before, have Jet Li on the brain) while the rest of us get weekends and no availability for questions or fixup.

5. The endless amount of dividing up forms and stretching them out so that maybe you'll get the whole set before your death. In a word, games.

6. No qi gong allowed to be practiced or no discussion of qi gong theory by teachers.

When I left, I believe I had a good repore with MC. However, I don't know my status now after posting on this board, stating my stance. Anyway, I still cherish the time I had at the temple, mostly in the "old" days when MC still taught class.

Anyway, that's all I can remember now and are the major points.

[Taz]

My Wah Lum story is far less interesting or infamous as the many others who have posted. My story is simple- I wanted to learn about jing and applications and be in an environment that was open to ideas and the exchange of ideas. Funny, but Wah Lum (from the various posts) seems to frown on learning and sharing from others. I just thought this was just the way at the WL school I attended. It appears to be similar throughout.
The general theme seems to be similar from post to post. What concerns me is not the discontent that students had or have, but the outcasting when the decision to leave was made. In many cases, like in mine, it was done with the utmost respect and amicability. Yet, like in the times of the pharoes, my name must be stricken from all WL records. Present students cannot socialize with me. At tournaments and shows, we cannot fratinize. What has changed? The decision to learn from a new source-What is so threatning? What's the concern?
Unfornately, this cannot be answered by the posters here, but please share with this Master Chan, Mimi, Suzy and have them contemplate an answer to this question.
I was always taught not to burn bridges and leave anything on good terms with which I have made my lifelong bond. I find it difficult to comprehend that this outcasting is necessary, humanistic, and bound in tradition. It appears to be part of human frailities such as jealousy, anger, and fear.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Taz,
My first Kenpo instructor played bass guitar in a band when he was learning Karate. He missed so many practice sessions with the band because of Karate he was told to make a decision. He went with Karate. Because of that he expected everyone to do the same. A top student wanted to be a singer and when he landed a job in Atlantic City Sensei was infuriated. That's the last I ever heard of him. I was a top student when I left and he was so ****ed he wanted my belts and certificates back.

Sometimes they take it real personal, like you're cheating on them when you learn somewhere else or leave. Especially if you're close or a top student or Sifu. I've seen new students at the Temple who were training at other schools at the same time. MC just vies them differently. To MC it's an insult to him if you go elsewhere for your training (unless he gives permission) and he feels betrayed if you do it behind his back. It's kind of like a marriage. You're wife is a brunette but you really want to have sex with a redhead. Is it ok to do that? Personally I ask my wife first but she always says no. :)

BTW, I don't hide my identity so if you see me around a tournament or somewhere say hello.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri,
I'm curious, did you speak up? Sometimes I get the feeling that people just assume things and don't really ask or speak up. Seems to me it should be easy if planning on leaving anyhow. And it seems that the only people who notice any favoritism are the ones that aren't getting any. I've never figured out how to get there myself and since MC feels like he got burned by those he gave a little extra to in the past I don't expect to ever get there. Makes it tough for the rest and it gets worse after each incident.

I worked for a companny (geez, another story) that was losing employees. What they did was set up an exit interview for employees that turned in their notice. That gave them some insight into what and where the problem was so it could be addressed. Most of the time they don't see it themselves. Like the monkey climbing the tree your view depends on where you are on the tree.

You have to be thick skinned and able to handle hearing the negative AND willing to compromise to remedy the situation. Personally I like negative feedback. It's usually a little more honest.

[woliveri]

Hua Lin,
Speak up about what? To which point in my list above should I or could I have spoken up about?

[18elders]

to make it very simple and leave out out the politics and crap over the years, i left to improve my kung fu.

you guys haven't trained with us so you don't have anything to compare to, i spent 10 years in WL so i know what i'm talking about. I know alot of WL sifu's and know what they say about things they are not happy with.

As far as the others i don't think they will post(sean dean etc.)
But i will comment on something SC told us when he was our sifu.
He stated MC would always tell him to stay with him and he would teach him the "real" wah lum, what he tought was just training forms. Guess he got tired of waiting


But anyways, best of luck to you guys in whatever you train in.

[woliveri]

Yeah, right... MC is going to teach SC, a non-family member, the "real" WL? Good thing he didn't hold his breath.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri,
Specifically items 3 and 4. Did you tell him how strong you felt about learning qi gong? Did you ask about getting extra time with Li En Jiao? I just feel like people complain but haven't really made an effort to work out the problem. If your interest is mainly qi gong then you were in the wrong school and leaving should not have been a problem. That's like *****ing that you don't train enough grappling in Wah Lum. There isn't any so you have to go somewhere else. No problem. Personally I like to try to fix things before I give up. As for SC perhaps he didn't pass MC's little tests he's constantly giving people (unaware to them). Sometimes it's physical, sometimes it's mental, sometimes moral/spiritual. You need to exhaust what he gives you before you move on. If none of these guys worked out the apps and really understand the forms they were taught whay should he give them anything better?

Did any of you guys explain to them exactly why you left?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

18 elders,
Anyone who is there or has been there knows the deal with the politics. It's like that whever you go (maybe your school is different, don't know) especially the large one. What makes matters worse is having it centered around family but then traditionally kung fu stayed only within the family and MC is very traditional. That tends to create an 'us' and 'them' attitude.

I haven't trained with you guys so I can't compare the two but I have trained at a few other schools. I know how others train, what they teach, how they teach. I've been to the street fighting focused schools and the hard core get in the ring full contact type of schools. Believe me, I won't be amazed by what you guys do there. Perhaps that's why some people felt mislead or lied to about Wah Lum. I knew exactly what I was getting and wasn't expecting anything different.

And if anyone still in Wah Lum has complaints I would recommend trying to solve the problem first before giving up. If it's still a problem after that then just go somewhere else and enjoy.

And I doubt Dean, Sean or the others will post anything here too. Just trying to clear the air so we can drop the 'why did all the greats leave Wah Lum' crap. Speak up or shut up. Once this thread closes it's done and we can get back to some serious discussion. Notice how the technical comments disappear and the forum degrades when this crap is introduced?

[woliveri]

Hua Lin,
First SC does not stand for Sean C. He77, I would have paid $$ if one of the other students had personal attention. Even if it wasn't me.

Second, WL is what it is and for me it doesn't fit any longer. No problem, I moved on.

I'm really tired of talking about this. The point is to let those at WL know that any serious student should never be complacent or satisfied with what WL has to offer or any other school for that matter. There is a lot more out there.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri,
Guess I don't know the SC you were talking about. After re-reading I realize my comment to you about SC and MC's little tests should have been directed to 18 elders since he mentioned that SC tired of waiting for 'the real' Wah Lum.

I think that happens for a lot of people, where they start no longer fitting what they want. I came from cuts-and-bruises Kenpo schools and was looking for traditional Chinese kung fu. Forms were fine but I still gathered enough support to get them to add a sparring class. I believe a bad experience or liability problem in the past caused them to stop sparring so there wasn't any when I got there.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience. I'm hoping this thread will put some of this to rest and everyone can move on to serious MA discussion. As soon as yu shan tells his story we'll be done.

[woliveri]

SC=Suzy Chan

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Well I certainly wouldn't be surprised, or take exception to MC's wife getting special or additional training. And I'm sure she's more than willing to pass on what she learned to the students of Wah Lum.

While I didn't expect everyone to speak out, and wasn't expecting such detail, I thought yu shan would be scrambling to speak his mind. Guess I was wrong.

From the ones who posted I can see that 1) Wah Lum didn't offer what they wanted or wasn't what they expected it to be, 2) You can't have two lions in a school, once you mature into a lion you're bound to bump heads with the main lion so it's best you move on, 3) Whether they left under good or bad circumstances everyone seems to have benefitted from their experiences with Wah Lum (most stayed for quite a few years). I haven't heard anything that doesn't go on to some extent at other schools, especially the larger ones.

As with everything in life you have to take the bad with the good. You have to dig through a lot of dirt to get to the gold or diamonds. I still have a good time at the seminars, banquets and other WL events. There's still a lot of good people there and a lot more to learn.

With that said I'm going to end this thread. Speak up time is over. We can now go into the shut up phase. Next time the bashing starts, whether Wah Lum, 8 Step, Pong Lai or others tell the poster to shut up and leave or post something constructive. As for me I'm just getting my school off the ground and people are signing up so it looks like I'll be getting real busy.

Feel free to drop a PM or e-mail anytime or if you're in the area drop by to discuss Kung Fu. If you come to challenge me let me know ahead of time so I can put on my old uniform and sharpen my sword. :D

Apologies to anyone who was offended by this thread or anything I've said online.

[yu shan]

Wah Lum is a good stepping stone to " a higher level" of Gong fu training. IMO Wah Lum will give you a strong foundation...but it stops there! It is unfortunately short-coming in many areas yet strong in others.

You cannot expect all the Shrfus who have left to even know of KFO/ and this thread. But I appreciate Hua Lin Laoshi, this was a very good attempt learning why some of us are disgruntled brothers.

Hua Lin Laoshi

Absolute prosperity and goodness to your family and your new school. Look forward to seeing you at Big Mike`s Wedding in April.

I invested eleven years with Wah Lum. Had what some thought were good teachers (AD & SC). I left to better myself, a style that filled the void, and will take me to the Mountain-top! Our door is always open, don`t expect amazement...Pong Lai will just "open your eyes"

God be with 101st and the rest of Brothers and Sisters.

[woliveri]

With that said I'm going to end this thread. Speak up time is over. We can now go into the shut up phase. Next time the bashing starts, whether Wah Lum, 8 Step, Pong Lai or others tell the poster to shut up and leave or post something constructive.

No offense Hua Lin but should the need to arise to "correct" any spin regarding WL I will take it. Also, don't confuse debate/conversation regarding a topic as bashing.

Well I certainly wouldn't be surprised, or take exception to MC's wife getting special or additional training. And I'm sure she's more than willing to pass on what she learned to the students of Wah Lum.

Nope, the essence of Taiji at WL is not being taught. No standing stake, body mechanics, jing, etc. Just Taiji form training. Now TaiChiBob can weigh in on this and correct me if I am incorrect.

That being said I wish you well in your new school. I ask again, are you setting up in Kissimmee? Where? What location?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Essentially, you are correct.. and even that is subject to the new regime's personal interpretations, to likes and dislikes as opposed to solid traditional forms.. after years of consistency and example by MC, SC has overhauled the forms to her satisfaction.. with unflattering commentary regarding MC's way.. The most competitive and awarded players from WL came under MC's instruction, the new "leadership" is degrading the even the form to more of an "interpretive dance" than Tai Chi.. No instruction is given regarding foundational aspects such as QiGong, anatomy, correct structural alignment, body mechanics or beneficial meditative practices.. basically, it is dance the way i dance type of instruction.. As was once said to several of us in SC's Chen Class (which was dropped near the mid point of the form due to reasons unknown to the students).. I like this part as taught by so and so, and this part as taught by someone else, and i think this part should be like this.. in other words, there was no consistent basis for the form. As for application, it is non-existent.. i tried my best and the students were appreciative, but.. you see where it got me.. Push-hands is more of a two-person dance than a true understanding of the many energies involved in interactive Tai Chi.. drills but no actual practice..

Beyond that, the Sparring in the Kung-Fu class is just fighting without emphasis on technique not to mention the lack of application of technique specific to WL.. Big Mike tried to emphasize Technique, Dean tried when he was there, too and Dave was smart enough to avoid that train wreck.. but, there was no instruction from the "top", no control of the curriculum..

Most students and almost all instructors under the new regime are treated as potential traitors, suspects in an ongoing delusional paranoia.. oops, now i'm just venting, so i'll end this here.. with the note that whatever the situation, i fully respect MC's knowledge, ability, and skill..

Be well..

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'm on the east side of Kissimmee (south of Orlando) away from the tourist section. Still getting the word out locally. I overhauled the old Wah Lum website (originally my creation and don't have time to create a fancy new one) and I'm looking for a host and a good domain name. I'll post a link when it's up. Thanks for the support.

woliveri,
You guessed it, I do come out of the woodwork to smooth over the controversary and stand up for Wah Lum and the Temple. After all it is my style, my school and my Sifu (MC) so what do you expect? :)

[ArrowFists]

Hopefully Wah Lum will work out its issues. As it stands now, its heading dangerously close towards being the TKD of the CMA community.

[KeyEssence]

Hey, Arrowfist

I find your comment quite commical, please specify what you mean??????

[Jack Squat]

Why I left Wah Lum-

Blah Blah Blah

The same as everyone else!
No application, too much politics. The "you can't attend that seminar" BS..............Neurotic behavior!!!!!!!!

And one thing I find particularily intriguing-
Were any of you guys around in the 80's when MC openly made fun of people who did tai chi? He would imply that tai chi was for people who couldn't do kung fu! He also called qigong "BS".
He didn't want anything to do with either one.

Longtime WLer John Lupos validates this statement when he wrote about it (very tactfully) in his recent book "Inside Tai Chi". Anyone who spent any significant time in WL will understand what he's talking about.

He states "This Sifu (MC) snickered openly at tai chi. So I was surprised when one day, after his return from a trip to China, he suddenly began teaching tai chi........"

Having said that, here's the bottom line:

I love the WL system- I feel that the forms are beautiful (on the few occasions that I see them done correctly and not like Wushu) and there is no denying MC's skill level. I only hope the current leadership realizes what it's doing and turns things around.

I agree with Yushan-WL is great to build a solid foundation, but it could (AND SHOULD) be so much more......


Jack

[woliveri]

Ditto Jack Squat.

I can concur regarding the Taichi and especially Qi Gong. I had heard MC got his tai chi from Bow Sim Mark. Don't know if that's true or not.

John Lupos wrote a book??? I remember he was a follower of Mantak Chia practicing Taoist Qi Gong. Don't know if he still is.

I also agree with your Bottom Line. Well Said. In fact, the whole thing was well said.

[spiralstair]

Yeah, i remember once about 82 when MC said that unless you had an extremely good teacher for Chi Kung you could easily become either " over-sexed, over-angry, over-greedy, or over -controlling". Then JL had to go and prove him right.:D

Another time MC said if a Chi Kung Master(no need to name him) had such good control of his 'chi', he should be able to go run 3 miles and then come back to do his demonstration unaffected. Needless to say, the Master refused, citing some kind of ankle problem.

Back in the late 60's Master Chan was doing T'ai Chi. He called it WL 'Soft Form'. He never taught it to JL though. It looks like WL done soft and slow with the turning in the tan tien typical to the T'ai chi styles.

Peace

[woliveri]

Yeah, i remember once about 82 when MC said that unless you had an extremely good teacher for Chi Kung you could easily become either " over-sexed, over-angry, over-greedy, or over -controlling". Then JL had to go and prove him right.

JL before is JL after. What's the diff?

Another time MC said if a Chi Kung Master(no need to name him) had such good control of his 'chi', he should be able to go run 3 miles and then come back to do his demonstration unaffected. Needless to say, the Master refused, citing some kind of ankle problem.


Not so, MC is wrong here. I personally know a very high level qi gong master who is not physically strong at all.


Back in the late 60's Master Chan was doing T'ai Chi. He called it WL 'Soft Form'. He never taught it to JL though. It looks like WL done soft and slow with the turning in the tan tien typical to the T'ai chi styles

Soft form does not equal Taiji. Just doing a WL form slowly does not incorporate the principals of Taiji. Sorry.

[BAI HE]

"Another time MC said if a Chi Kung Master(no need to name him) had such good control of his 'chi', he should be able to go run 3 miles and then come back to do his demonstration unaffected. Needless to say, the Master refused, citing some kind of ankle problem. "

Why would a chi-gung expert run for the amusement of a peer?
Besides, running three miles and then performing chi-gung sets
doesn't prove or quantify any level of skill and that sort of muscular exercise has nothing to do with chi-gung.

Chi gung= energy work

[BAI HE]

"Soft form does not equal Taiji. Just doing a WL form slowly does not incorporate the principals of Taiji. Sorry"

Good point. Rolling an orange slowly does not make it an apple.
Besides there are a lot of Tai Chi people out there not doing Tai Chi, go figure.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

While Tai Chi is not my area of expertise (and off topic) I would like to comment. I believe there are six parts to WL Soft Form and I only know part two. What I know is very similar to the WL Kung Fu forms but I can't say that it's just a KF form done slowly. With that said I'd like to relate my view on Tai Chi. Kung Fu means hard work. That refers to hard external training which usually comes first at a younger age. Tai Chi means grand ultimate and to me means refining your techniques to their highest level (going internal minimizing energy expenditure). This usually comes later in life after the hard external Kung Fu. So my question is this: is Tai Chi the moves or is it the philosophy? (I realize Tai Chi was a fighting style at one time.) Kung Fu (hard work) can be applied to other things besides martial arts. I believe Tai Chi (grand ultimate) can be applied to other things as well. It's not the moves you do but how you train and express them.

Now in keeping with the forum topic I'd like to get some of the historians to comment on something I heard while at Shaolin on the 1998 China trip. Supposedly the Tai Chi guys used to kick Shaolin butt in the old days. This would include Mantis butt as well. Interesting since Mantis was the highest form of external Martial Arts. Please, no modern comparisons, only historical. Any truth to this?

[spiralstair]

Master Chan, in his inimitable way, was expressing the fundamental fault to most Chi Kung practices. Chi, if you believe in it, is a undifferentiated energy source. It has no particular quality of its own, it can be used for lots of different things.('martial chi', 'healing chi'...ect.). It's like water, a universal substance that is necessary for life, and in sufficent quantities, helps things grow. A person's internal state is like a garden, where things are 'cultivated' based on one's concious choices and, unfortunately, one's unconcious and instinctual drives.(anger,greed,sexual and controlling needs) The water grows EVERYTHING in the garden, weeds and flowers together. The more 'water' the more 'growth'.

To a traditional martial artist their martial art becomes, in time, 'watercourses' in their garden, that serve to channel and direct the chi. To see if a martial artist has attained this is fairly simple. Their movement should be able to 'flow', connected and uninterrupted, moving in a wave-like manner between top and bottom. This mimics the movement of chi. This takes quite awhile to attain though, but has always been thought as the best way to form one's character ('weeding the garden'), before adding more water.

Nowadays people seek to shortcut the traditional way, by directly increasing the waterflow into their 'garden'. They don't bother to do the arduous physical work of the traditional martial way. They dismiss it as unnnecessary and go right to the 'chi'. Unfortunately they often claim to have 'it', but move in a very disjointed way. One wonders, how can they feel the chi, if they can't feel their body enough to move it in a way that follows the chi? The answer is that the chi they are feeling isn't really 'there' in their physical body. It exists only in a mental construct of their body that lives in their minds.This is what MC meant by Chi Kung being 'BS". It is often 'claimed', but cannot be demonstrated.

[BAI HE]

Chi-gung practices are not merely for martial development, many people practice chi-gung and nei-gung for health and longevity.

Tai chi is a style, not just a set of principles.

Interesting. Two people commenting on styles and practices
they don't study.

[spiralstair]

Bai He Wrote:
"Interesting. Two people commenting on styles and practices
they don't study."


and you?

[SaMantis]

Interesting. Someone whose profile indicates he doesn't study Tai Chi/Chi Gong either criticizing others for daring to comment.

[BAI HE]

Hmmm. Profile hasn't been updated in a long long time.
Haven't been on this board in a long time either, seems not much has changed.

[BAI HE]

Well, rather than start a ****ing match and a credential tossing contest, I will leave you all in peace. Enjoy your practice.

[woliveri]

The answer is that the chi they are feeling isn't really 'there' in their physical body. It exists only in a mental construct of their body that lives in their minds.This is what MC meant by Chi Kung being 'BS". It is often 'claimed', but cannot be demonstrated.

I can see you've never been around a true Qi Gong Master and have never felt another's Qi. I have and therefore absolutely dismiss your above statement. I have seen a lot of Masters who didn't own up to what they should but on the other hand, when you are around a true Master you can see the difference.

What's sad is those who blindly follow such statements and never look for themselves probably because they are suppressed from doing so (may get kicked out). In addition, to have someone of prominence in the Martial Arts community put it down in front of students. I would rather he say, maybe or let's check it out. Also, I've seen him sponsor a lady Qi Gong Master from China whom I never met but I heard her qi was strong. Also, I heard from other students while visiting China at a Chen Taiji camp they could see the qi moving up and down the practioner's legs. And opening and closing pore breathing. From a WL student.


I have no answer to Hua Lin's question.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
While Tai Chi is not my area of expertise (and off topic) I would like to comment. I believe there are six parts to WL Soft Form and I only know part two. What I know is very similar to the WL Kung Fu forms but I can't say that it's just a KF form done slowly. With that said I'd like to relate my view on Tai Chi. Kung Fu means hard work. That refers to hard external training which usually comes first at a younger age. Tai Chi means grand ultimate and to me means refining your techniques to their highest level (going internal minimizing energy expenditure). This usually comes later in life after the hard external Kung Fu. So my question is this: is Tai Chi the moves or is it the philosophy? (I realize Tai Chi was a fighting style at one time.) Kung Fu (hard work) can be applied to other things besides martial arts. I believe Tai Chi (grand ultimate) can be applied to other things as well. It's not the moves you do but how you train and express them.

Now in keeping with the forum topic I'd like to get some of the historians to comment on something I heard while at Shaolin on the 1998 China trip. Supposedly the Tai Chi guys used to kick Shaolin butt in the old days. This would include Mantis butt as well. Interesting since Mantis was the highest form of external Martial Arts. Please, no modern comparisons, only historical. Any truth to this?

No idea of Taiji guys kicking Shaolin butt however, the one of the most famous exponent of taijiquan, the founder of Yang style, Yang Lu Chan, had the title Yang the invincible. He earned this by, well, being invincilble when he was doing tour of school closing in China, no doubt he kicked number of Shaolin butts while on his tour. That doesn't mean taijiquan is superior to shaolin. It just that Yang Lu Chan was a very very good martial artists. Now a day, most shaolin kungfu practioners can easily kick butts of taiji practioners, majority of them not even consider taijiquan as martial arts. And bjj practioners tend to kick shaolin butts but this is to do with the difference in the effort average bjj practioner invest in their training compared to kung fu practioners

There is some misunderstanding of the meaning of taijiquan due to the English translation. Taijiquan is often translated as Great Ultimate Fist. Many people hence assume that taijiquan means the Greatest martial arts (fist). This interpretation is not correct. Better translation is Grand Polarities Fist. Grand Polarities is the central concept in Daoism, symbolised by the Ying-Yang symbol. Ying and Yang, polar opposite complimenting each other to make perfect circle. The taijiquan is based on the concept of Daoism, hence the name, not because it was the best martial arts Evar.

On the question regarding whether taichiquan about the moves or its philosophy, I must say the later one is correct. However, this does not means that taijiquan is not about martial arts and all about qigong and harmony with universal ki. It simply means that our focus is on the principles of ying-yang strategy in combat than mere techniques. (Explanation of taijiquan principles takes too long so please visit our section of forum for insights.)

Taijiquan forms are sometimes called "posture" form. Most of each posture in taijiquan has number of application (manifestation) into lock, throw, attack and/or defence. So the form is not a representation of techniques but more a representation and training method of correct body alignment and its transition from one posture from other. So as long as one adhere to these principles, it matter little whether someone is doing pushing hand or judo match or in mixed martial arts competition.

Lastly, because it is more a matter of strategy in combat which differentiate taijiquan from shaolin, practice of tajiquan does not means the training is soft. For example, instead of doing horse stance to train leg strength, a taijiquan practioner might do single leg stance so as to differentiate yang leg with yin leg. Obviously this method of training is harder than horse stance as you must support the entire body weight with one leg. It is often recorded that training of taijiquan was extremely harsh in old days.

[Laughing Cow]

Adding to what vapour said.

TJQ should manifest both softness and hardness, slow and fast the changes between those can come very quick.

Combine this with the coiling energy and Fa-jing, weapons training, strength training, 2 man training.

If you look at Chen TJQ which has shaolin influences (Red Fist, Cannon pounding) due to the chen village proximity to the temple, you will see those expressed in the forms.

Seeya.

[Vapour]

Anyway, there is some confusion as to the meaning of kung fu. Taijiquan is one of kung fu style. There are two version of origin of taijiquan, Chen family and Chang San-Feng. Either way, taijiquan trace its origin to Shaolin Kung Fu. The location of Chen village is very close to Shaolin Temple. And Chang San-Feng is said to be a graduate of Shaolin Temple.

btw, I finished reading the entire thread just now. Someone posted the link to the second page of this thread so I didn't realised what this thread was about.

To be honest, my feeling is that this organision is slightly cultish waiting to have internal explosion. I also saw the women's taijiquan form from the photo gallery. Though one can't tell much of what is goin on internally, she doesn't seem to be properly single weighted in the front leg when she is doing single whip.

For what I know from my experience in taijiquan, most genuine taijiquan people don't argue much with interpretation of the form because what matter is the principles of taijiquan which are quite clearly stated in the classics.

[woliveri]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh....... Now that felt goooooood.

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Shaolin Dude]

MC is master chan as in chan poi?

[Shaolin Dude]

MC is master chan as in chan poi?

[spiralstair]

[woliveri wrote:” I can see you've never been around a true Qi Gong Master and have never felt another's Qi. I have and therefore absolutely dismiss your above statement. I have seen a lot of Masters who didn't own up to what they should but on the other hand, when you are around a true Master you can see the difference.

What's sad is those who blindly follow such statements and never look for themselves probably because they are suppressed from doing so (may get kicked out). In addition, to have someone of prominence in the Martial Arts community put it down in front of students. I would rather he say, maybe or let's check it out. Also, I've seen him sponsor a lady Qi Gong Master from China whom I never met but I heard her qi was strong. Also, I heard from other students while visiting China at a Chen Taiji camp they could see the qi moving up and down the practioner's legs. And opening and closing pore breathing. From a WL student.”]

I’ve practiced and taught Chi Kung for 21 years. Been inside WL the whole time.
Your reply to my previous post (top of page 3) displays some typical elements one finds in many ‘internalist’s’ thinking.

[“I can see you've never been around a true Qi Gong Master and have never felt another's Qi”]

That’s what one hears a lot when an ‘Qi person’ is asked to prove it. It always becomes the questioner’s fault, they ‘can’t feel the chi’ or they’re ‘not sensitive enough’, or the best one, ‘not developed enough’. As the Church Lady used to say, “how convenient..”.

I’ve been around a few Masters, and many posers, and many people whose ‘Qi transmission’ relies on the Placebo Effect for impact. Nevertheless, the common behavior is always to first blame the questioner, never question one’s own ability. It is the basic problem with ‘the chi’. It can’t be seen, can’t be overtly demonstrated, and relies on testimony for proof.

[“I have and therefore absolutely dismiss your above statement.”]

Cool. A person who believes in ‘that which produces the ten thousand things’ can “absolutely dismiss” another’s statement. Duh, there are no ‘absolutes’ in the Tao.

[“In addition, to have someone of prominence in the Martial Arts community put it down in front of students.”]

You’re talking about MC here, right? Someone who has spent his whole life demonstrating the validity of his beliefs (in Kung Fu) by actually performing something that can be seen and judged by all. At all times, for all comers. With Kung Fu or T’ai Chi, you can see it. A person’s real development is right out there for everyone to see. With Qi Kung? Nope. Sorry. We’ll just have to take the ‘Qi guy’s’ word on it till we develop ourselves enough to ‘feel’ it.

Peace

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

spiralstair,
Very good explanation. To clarify something you said and woliveri commented about:


spiralstair
"Nowadays people seek to shortcut the traditional way, by directly increasing the waterflow into their 'garden'. They don't bother to do the arduous physical work of the traditional martial way. They dismiss it as unnnecessary and go right to the 'chi'. Unfortunately they often claim to have 'it', but move in a very disjointed way. One wonders, how can they feel the chi, if they can't feel their body enough to move it in a way that follows the chi? The answer is that the chi they are feeling isn't really 'there' in their physical body. It exists only in a mental construct of their body that lives in their minds.This is what MC meant by Chi Kung being 'BS". It is often 'claimed', but cannot be demonstrated."

woliveri
"I can see you've never been around a true Qi Gong Master and have never felt another's Qi." "Also, I heard from other students while visiting China at a Chen Taiji camp they could see the qi moving up and down the practioner's legs. And opening and closing pore breathing. From a WL student."

I don't think spiralstair was including true Qi Gong Masters in his statement. "Nowadays people seek to shortcut the traditional way" is a clue that he's talking about people who don't take the time to really train properly. I hear people talk all the time about how they sit and circulate their Qi and do this and that but can't show any evidence that any of it exists at all. Now before you think I'm dismissing everyone you need to know that I was there in Shanghai in 1998 and witnessed first hand the incident you mentioned. I not only saw it but felt it. No mass hysteria, mind control or placebo effect. So if it's true and it's real why can't these others offer physical proof? I believe, like MC, when it comes to Qi Gong and internal training there more delusion going on than real training. Consider yourself lucky if what you're getting is real (can be manifested).

This threads gone way off topic and off forum and I believe the topic has been exhausted. Someone start up a new one if anyone want to continue along these lines. How about Qi training in PM?

[BAI HE]

Spiral,
There is supposedly a Tai Chi Mantis teacher in Boston. Do you
know who it is and what the origin of the style is?

[woliveri]

You're talking in circles. How can you teach and practice Qi Gong for so many years and make comments like you do? With that much devotion to an art which you scoff at your making me confusued. Have you gotten no benefits from your Qi Gong practice? What is your position on it's usefulness? Can you not give a feeling of Qi to someone?

Also, if you've been in WL all this time you're the exception than the rule. Could be that you're so far from the Temple. Are you a WL Sifu? If so you're allowed to teach Qi Gong? Are you in the good graces of the Temple?

Sorry Hua Lin. spiralstair, if yow want to take this to a new thread, we can.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

woliveri,
What forum do you Qi Gong guys hang out in? I have an interesting experiment to discuss and would like some feedback from the Internal practitioners. Trying to find out whether Qi is the force involved in the results.

If anyone at the Temple is curious ask Tom D. about the paper under the glass I showed him in the hotel lobby in Maryland.

[woliveri]

Hua Lin,
The only ones I know of are these:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=14
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=12

[mantis108]

Hi Bai He,

Please Check the following link for the school.

CCK TCPM (http://www.shao-lin-dao.com/)

For further info. or inquiry please feel free to join our forum (link provided with my signature below.)

Regards

Mantis108

[ArrowFists]

Originally posted by KeyEssence
Hey, Arrowfist

I find your comment quite commical, please specify what you mean??????

Shouldn't it be obvious? Anytime a school reaches the success level of WL (i.e. becomes a chain), it becomes more about the money, and less about the art. The WL school in my area charges insanely high class fees, and the students it produces aren't particularly skilled.

[carly]

And why would anyone pay a lot to learn wah lum?

[Brad]

Here's it's $100 a month.

[ArrowFists]

Originally posted by Brad
Here's it's $100 a month.

I actually heard that its more if you participate is some programs. $100 a month is the BASE price.

I pay $10 bucks a month for my instruction, and I guarentee we're getting more for our dollar than those Wah Lum folks are.

[Tainan Mantis]

Arrowfist,
Would you mind telling us a little about your school and style of MA?

[BAI HE]

Thanks for the info mantis108.
Looks like interesting stuff.
Have a good day.

[Brad]

man... you've got a nice settup then ArrowFists, lol. Myself and the other advanced students in my class pay $80/month while the rest pay $100/quarter(about $20/month I guess). Ours is a college club though, and our teacher's only source of income :-P

[ArrowFists]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
Arrowfist,
Would you mind telling us a little about your school and style of MA?

I'm a nidan in Shotokan karate, been doing it for ten years. I've also done Judo for 5 years. I've been around long enough to know quality students when I see them, and for the amount of money Wah Lum charges, I don't see an equal amount quality being produced in the students.

Now maybe that's not the case with Wah Lum students nationwide, but where I live, that's what I'm seeing.

[spiralstair]

Woliveri wrote to Spiralstair:

"You're talking in circles. How can you teach and practice Qi Gong for so
many years and make comments like you do? With that much devotion to an art which you scoff at your making me confusued. Have you gotten no benefit from your Qi Gong practice? What is your position on it's usefulness? Can
you not give a feeling of Qi to someone?

Also, if you've been in WL all this time you're the exception than the rule.
Could be that you're so far from the Temple. Are you a WL Sifu? If so you're
allowed to teach Qi Gong? Are you in the good graces of the Temple?"


Woliveri,

I started Chi Kung when it was called that instead of Qi Kung and there were
one or two apparently real Masters willing to openly teach the 'indoor' informationThis was before it became overwhelmingly popular in China and still clung to its Taoist roots.

The initial group of students who were attracted to it in the Northeast were
all 'old school', martial artists, Buddhist, TM, and other long term meditators.[ No 'Wicca', no 'Tantric', no 'Rebirthing-soft-music-listening-long-distance-healing-aura-sensing-only-accentuate-the-po
sitive-loose-clothes-wearing-people-of-the-Earth' need apply. ]

It was awesome. My ongoing WL practice had provided me the muscular and
skeletal structure to easily feel the 'chi'. Many others in the initial
group also felt it work. I wondered at the time, "Why is this information
usually held back towards the end of a martial artist's development? You
know, the come into the back room after 20 years and learn the Microcosmic Orbit sort of thing."

The answer came soon enough with Chi Kung's rising popularity. The group
around the Masters rapidly grew with those people described in the brackets
above. These people tended to have no PHYSICAL background in anything. Nogrounding in the day-to-day work that gradually climbing the never-ending
stairs of a traditional martial practice gives a practitioner. They were
overwhelmingly MENTAL.


After some time of interacting with this 'new school' type it became clear to me that the traditional martial arts emphasis on physical development first before energy work had a strong grounding in reality. Those whose life was based on a 'physical' path had learned to really 'feel' their bodies through the constant interplay between muscle and bone and intention. Through constant correction in forms ,through contact in application practice and fighting, through healing injury and contemplating pain. These people actually could feel their real physical selves, so they had a better chance of feeling the 'chi'. This has proven true in my own teaching practice, the best groups I have taught Chi Kung to have been a group of professional hockey players, and a group of weight lifters.These guys wouldn't claim to feel anything till they actually 'physically' could. So When some of them 'felt' it, it was real.

The 'Mental' type though, almost all felt 'chi' right away. Usually with all sorts of interesting side effects of colors, odors, sounds, lights, dreams, spontaneous healings, ect. They were so used to living in their bodies 'through' their minds, that feeling 'chi' became just another concept 'laid over' their 'idea' of their body. What I'm saying is that the whole thing exists mainly in their minds. In my experience this type of person doesn't really have it, but because they have no firm physical practice with which to 'test' it, they just assume they've 'got it'.

This story could go on and on.( there's the part about the competition to be the most'spiritual' in the eyes of the Master, the part to see who's got the most 'chi', the part about the Masters and their adoring female students...blah,blah,blah) Basically I'd say that yes Qi Kung is useful, yes 'chi' can be passed, yes to all your questions in that paragraph.

Why Post this here in the NPM board? Because I usually find myself defending the good name of my teacher, Master Chan, from people whose one sharing characteristic is that they've left WL and that they speak English better than he. Now it's that he doesn't 'know' Qi Kung. Actually his approach IS, like him, the 'old school' traditional CMA way. For that, the young whelps find fault, with one third his experience. It's getting old, don't you think? Over and Out.

Peace

[ArrowFists]

Originally posted by Brad
man... you've got a nice settup then ArrowFists, lol. Myself and the other advanced students in my class pay $80/month while the rest pay $100/quarter(about $20/month I guess). Ours is a college club though, and our teacher's only source of income :-P

Well if your teacher is giving you quality instruction, then its worth the price.

If he isn't, find another school.

The problem is that people tend to become loyal to their instructors (especially if they're Asian) even when its detrimental to their growth as martial artists.

[woliveri]

Your post is interesting and informative. I agree with you on most of what you say except needing the physical training to experience Qi. Perhaps it depends on the style of Qi Gong being taught. I know people who only do standing Wuji. No taiji, no kung fu, no external training what so ever, just standing and have great results. Also, I can agree that some may "want to feel" and thus the feeling is in their minds. I, for one, feel what I feel. Not conjoured in my mind but I know there are those who are not the same way.

Regarding Master Chan. I think you get it wrong along with some others. This is not bashing or fault finding, this is talking facts. MC does not teach Qi Gong and did not allow it in the Temple when I was there. Fact. MC was not open to Qi Gong when I was there. Fact. I don't know what he believes now. MC has never talked about Qi Gong being something that will develop naturally with WL training.

There is nothing wrong with this. How come you need to defend it. It's just stating the truth.

So what's a student to do if there is an interest in Qi Gong (BTW, Qi Gong and Chi Kung are the same, just different romanizations from different dialects)? Can't investigate while at WL. Don't have any knowledge of Qi Gong being part of WL training.

Now I believe MC has trained his Qi based on the reports of some students but it's not something he'll talk about.

You like your Qi Gong, right. As you said it's awesome. Why deprive other WL Students of such an experience?

Why close the door?

[Brad]

Well if your teacher is giving you quality instruction, then its worth the price.

If he isn't, find another school.

The problem is that people tend to become loyal to their instructors (especially if they're Asian) even when its detrimental to their growth as martial artists.
Yes, he is giving quality instruction, so us more senior guys got together and decided the $80/month ourselves :D

[northernJump]

(BTW, Qi Gong and Chi Kung are the same, just different romanizations from different dialects)?

Yes they are differnent romanizations but they both come from mandarin. Chi Kung is the old wade-giles system wheras qigong is pinyin - now the official romonization scheme. same as Tai chi' chauan vs taijiquan

[MiamiMantis]

I have been training with Sifu Shelly Huang (Durrell) since 1989 so I've seen and (mostly heard) alot of things and seen alot of people come and go. Being away from the Temple is a blessing and a curse. It's bad because you don't get to draw off of the energy that surrounds the Temple life and the training that goes on there. Also it's good because you don't get wrapped up in politics since you train away from the temple.

I have been to theTemple many many times through out the years and childern and responsibility has taken a toll on my training. I still go 3 times a week, but thats all I can give.

Wah Lum is definately not the end to all, I will agree to that. But you should be in it for yourself and not for others. Get out of it what you can. Physical fitness, flexibility, history, knowledge, self defense, and make new friends.

Enjoy it for whats it' worth and if you like it who cares what every body else thinks. Real or fake forms, politics or not, who' really in charge?, or who got kicked out this month. Does it really affect you? it shouldn't. Just keep putting along and enjoy your training.:D :D :D :D :D

[Robinf]

Nice photo. Are you kneeling on your right knee, or is leg only collapsed just above the ground?

Robin

[yu shan]

Miami,

Well said friend, your Shrfu has my utmost respect, mostly due to the fact, WL is an all male world. She hangs in there. Tell NM no hard feelings just getting a rise out of folks!

[Tainan Mantis]

a move at the end of 8 elbows where you kneel on one knee.
Some people just squat low.

A takedown that can break the opponents leg

[shaolin kungfu]

A takedown that can break the opponents leg

Can you explain this a little more? I'm not seeing it from the picture alone.

[GiantMantis]

what is the difference between qi gong and nei gong

[yu shan]

The techniques in forms amaze me since I`ve met your Shrfu, Shr ZhengZhong. He is all about the fighting style of your form. The main reason, why I left previous style. Want to take it to a higher level. Not to bash WL folks, stay where you are. WL has alot to offer.

A simple kneel on one knee!

[MiamiMantis]

The picture is nothing special just a cool pose I saw in a movie or on a demo tape, don't remember which. Just a simple knee bend, nothing unusual.....Now that I think about it, I don't see many people posting that want to show a pic of themselves. Whats the big deal, or am I missing something???
:D :cool: :) :D :cool:

[Tainan Mantis]

Oh, I thought you had learned Jiang Bingdo's 8 Elbow form.
I would guess you saw this part of the form on video then.

Shaolin,
About the app, the one to ask is Flem. He has known it since I lived in the states in the late '80's.
I am not too good at squating down like that.

[Guile]

IS squatting that low effecive? Doesnt it hinder your mobilitY?

[MiamiMantis]

Like I said...it's just a cool pose. Nothing more, nothing less.

[BAI HE]

Because they attacked my favorite "early bird" buffet!

http://www.wahlum.com/photo_gallery/WahLumPhotoGallery/WahLumPhotoGallery/chinese_new_year11_02.html

[Guile]

NOT THE EARLY BIRD BUFFET!!!!!!!!
:D

[BAI HE]

Grab the Crab Rangoon and flee!

[Robinf]

http://www.wahlum.com/photo_gallery/WahLumPhotoGallery/WahLumPhotoGallery/chinese_new_year15_02.html


http://www.wahlum.com/photo_gallery/WahLumPhotoGallery/WahLumPhotoGallery/chinese_new_year8_02.html

What are they in the middle of doing?

[BAI HE]

An off Broadway production of "Swing"?

[BAI HE]

Super-imposed golf course Tai Chi

http://www.wahlum.com/photo_gallery/WahLumPhotoGallery/WahLumPhotoGallery/simu_tai_chi8.html

[BeiTangLang]

guys,...the thread is wandering bady,....

[Guile]

Yes, but it is interesting :D

[woliveri]

Hey, anyone in the know about this pic, is that Noah Far right standing w/yellow shirt?

http://www.wahlum.com/photo_gallery/WahLumPhotoGallery/WahLumPhotoGallery/TN%20cane%20seminar.html

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Robinf
Looks like our secret levitation techniques has been revealed.:)

BAI HE
And our top secret Tai Chi Teleportation too!:)

woliveri
Sifu Bob Rosen. Picture taken at Sifu Leroy's new school gran opening. Cane seminar group.

So when is this thread going to die? Yu Shan said his piece, the rest had their chance and chose not to comment. Looks like yu shan is the only one to leave because he didn't learn any apps. I can't explain how that happened but I'll take his word for it.

[yu shan]

Hua Lin,

Shared some thoughts, could have said alot more, but why beat a dead horse. Wasnt the thread about reasons for leaving WL? Anyway, just moved on, and enjoy what I`m doing.

Nice choice...3rd form! :)

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Modified 3rd Form, as usual. Everyone wanted me to do the Tam Tui (one leg squat) and I usually do but didn't really feel up to it that day. Since Sean left I picked up doing the Tam Tui. Now I'm known for it.

What was it you did?

BTW, nice 2 man. So tell me, does it hurt when Robin hits? :D

On topic comment:
I'm still loving Wah Lum so hopefully I'll be around for awhile. I didn't get a chance to show you some of the neat stuff you didn't learn. Maybe next time.

[yu shan]

Have you done your tan tui on a v-eight juice can yet?

Robin is hitting alot harder and more accurately since the switch to PL. She will put a bruise on you.

Good luck with your WL stuff, you`d be surprised what I picked up over the years. In between WL teachers dropping out or getting kicked out. Not much amazes me with WL, same old hat. Need not bother with the neat stuff , rather go in the direction I`m headin`.

What our group did in the cow pasture, were basic forms. Sort of how MC does Lil Mantis all the time.

Anyway, was good visiting with you and Lila, and others. Good luck with your new school in Kissimmee, I know you will do well. Um, can I crash your Grand Opening? :)

[Frogman]

I think it would be great if YuShan made it to HuaLinLaoshi's grand opening. I know I would make it a point to be threre just to meet YuShan. WL PL nomattar one can appreciate Yu's forwardness.:D Of course, some may not feel the way I do.

[18elders]

It would be nice to go but MC would not allow it for sure. He already prevents us from judging and performing at tournaments(demos). We want to keep open communication with our WL kung fu brothers but unfortunately learn kindness and fellowship doesn't apply towards PL members.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Sure, I'll show you next time. :) I was expecting you guys to grill me a little to see if I was talking crap or not. Much better being friends and accepting others choices and opinions. I like Kung Fu and I like talking and sharing. I was busting at the seams for an opportunity to 'talk shop'.

[18elders]

You should've said something to us, would have been a great opportunity to talk.
Maybe next time

[yu shan]

Never could understand why such bitterness when I left, did it the right way, with respect! Why does MC tell gong-fu brothers to not associate with those who leave? It seems only acceptable when it is in the circle of the WL world. I gave 11 years training, spending loads of money, sweat and time. Got tired of just learning another form, and being told to just figure it out.

Hua Lin

Wanted very much to talk some sh*t, but you seemed a little nervous being around us. Anyway, I`m in your area quite a bit, I will come in stealth :) Being gong-fu brothers is important, why can`t we practice this fellowship thing?

Thanks Frogman! Not alot of folks (WL) like me here. My forwardness is due to many reasons. First is confidence! Been doing MA along time, and finally I can hold my head high! A great feeling to know the stuff I always thought I should be learning is finally being taught to me. Plus it opens my eyes to my WL material. I am not arrogant, my Shrfu beats the crap out of me! After standing toe to toe with Shrfu Scolaro, no fear exists.

[Frogman]

On a personal note I can not hold anything against anyone who left WL. We each make our own decisions based on what is best for ourselves. At Nick’s tournament a few weeks ago I ran into two of my former class mates, one who trains PL and I’m not sure where but the other guy is training somewhere else as well. It’s really not a big deal to me, but of course, when a teacher losses a student I’m sure that they feel as bad. It is not only the student that invests in the student teacher relationship. Besides, if everyone who joins a style stays in that style it would become over crowded and there would be less room for new students. :D As for what goes on here on the forum I enjoy the PM group as there are far less trolls then the general group and I find information about the style I am practicing, PM! Even if I don’t agree with what someone has to say I will often listen, but always draw my own conclusions.
Peace!~^~^~^~
RibHit,
fm

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

yu shan,
Maybe a little nervous. Not sure what to expect from you guys, friends or foe. Like I said before I expected to be called on my knowledge/ability. The way things are between the schools I thought I might be doing a REAL demo that day. Past experiences still haunt me (I'll tell you some day). I'm still not used to parties that don't have one or two fights before the night is over.

18elders,
After awhile I figured you guys had no interest. The talk about Luan Jie didn't go very far so I just let it go.

BTW, nobody told me not to associate with anyone and I have not heard of anyone being told that either. I think it's one of those 'kiss up' things where people want to be good little puppies. Real MA's think for themselves, make their own decisions and usually lead the pack rather than follow. At least that's my opinion. But then, you should stick by your school and Sifu. Anyone that was a friend before is still a friend until they do something to change that.

[yu shan]

This could be an interesting thread! I have been on both sides, pain is evident. A conscious teacher knows the feeling of losing a good student. It sucks the life out of you, especially when you give your all. Priorities change...even a Shrfu needs to learn this!

Hua Lin

After all that has been shared here on KFO, and meeting face to face with the PL group, what are your thoughts about us?

Do you think MC worries about the little guy? I only ask this because, he doesnt seem to worry about the teacher`s in WL !

Well said Frogman... :)

[Tainan Mantis]

Luan Jie?
What about it?

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Tainan Mantis,
I was interested in the differences between the PL version and Zhang Bing Dao's version. A mutual friend tried to show me the app for the beginning of PL version and it didn't make sense to me so I brought it up to 18elders at the wedding party. He mentioned it to Pong Lai but I guess he wasn't interested.

yu shan,
Pretty normal group of guys (and girl). Thought you guys would be more interested in talking apps and such and trying to 'open my eyes'. I could have spent hours in that field. Guess you train so much you needed some time off. :D

[NorthernMantis]

Originally posted by yu shan
Miami,

Well said friend, your Shrfu has my utmost respect, mostly due to the fact, WL is an all male world. She hangs in there. Tell NM no hard feelings just getting a rise out of folks!

None taken.:cool:

[Tainan Mantis]

Hua Lin,
I don't know how showed you the app for Luan jie.
The mei hua and mimen version are a little different but the beginning, called 5 Strikes continuous smash, is almost exactly the same.

[yu shan]

Seems my Gong-Fu Uncle will be in Florida (May) ! Would benefit you Hua Lin to make the trip to Tampa, with your questions. I plan to be there, I have my questions also. This would be a better time for everyone, alot of distractions before. My questions are not negative, just the interest to learn from my Uncle.

NM

Thanks Man!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

yu shan,
That's a bit of a drive and I have class to teach every night. I have a few non-WL mantis forms (not sure what branch) I picked up 2nd hand that I would like to get cleaned up but so far the only options are too expensive. We'll see. I'd probably be slitting my throat if I did.

I'm in the same boat with the Choy Lay Fut I know. I'd like to get the rest of Ping Kuen I learned from Lee Koon Hung but haven't pursued that yet either. Actually I really like their 5 Animal form. Tat Mau Wong put out a training tape on it but I prefer to get it from a live source.

Tainan Mantis,
If I have the time to stop in and say hello I will. (Slit- gurgle - gurgle)

[YinYangDagger]

Very interesting thread....sounds A LOT like Shaolin-do....actually, WORSE...

who's this Suzy chick? sounds like she needs a choke put on her LOL

no offense to anyone still associated with WL...but from these stories...geez...what a mess of BS

[yu shan]

YYD

Suzy chick = Suzy Chan, Master Chan Pui`s wife. This mess is just the tip of the iceberg, I`m not going there.

[YinYangDagger]

sounds like Suzy wears the pants in the family LOL

[sean_stonehart]

..... DOH!!!! :eek:

[Olethros]

Originally posted by YinYangDagger

no offense to anyone still associated with WL...but from these stories...geez...what a mess of BS

Still associated with WL after 4 years. My experience with WL has been the exact oppostite of some of the above stories. I am not at the temple, but my Sifu has done everything that the 'detractors' claim you don't see in WL. Nothing but good experiences here and good training..

[Frogman]

:eek:
Who drug this thread back out of the mud??
:confused:
RibHit
fm

[yu shan]

Froggy

YinYangDagger is your answer.

Olethros

If DH is your Shifu, I can easily agree with what you say. An amazing gongfu man and very good with the lion.

[Shaolin Dude]

does any know or heard of the form saint hands in wah lum? I heard it's a secret form.

[sayloc]

so lo sow? Never heard of it.

[Frogman]

:rolleyes:

[tanglang69]

This excerpt was taken from the ezine article, "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Woman"

"Kungfu has always been associated with secrets, with things kept inside a single family and never revealed, until sometimes entire systems would even die out. This rather gothic tradition is the last thing you would expect to find on - well, a cruise. But, in fact, the Wah Lum tradition is being passed on, perhaps dangerously close to the shuffleboard, bingo and buffet. As Mimi describes, "My family likes to go on cruises a lot, maybe twice a year, and every time that was my training vacation. I'm up at six a.m., watching the sun rise over the ocean. That's when I would learn a lot more advanced material, and get more one-on-one training with my dad. I actually just learned the "secret form" last January on a cruise.
"I know it literally will take a lifetime. I try to learn as much as I can, but I'm a perfectionist. I have to learn every form thoroughly. My dad's been teaching me more of the secret forms, because somebody's got to preserve it. As open minded as he is, he still does have a traditional base, and some things will remain in the family. That will stay with me. And even as Americanized as I am, keeping that tradition to me is the most important thing."

Well, you guys and gals can go and figure this out.

Nuff said,

Yu Shan, Xiao Tang Lang, and the rest of Pong Lai, see yall in Tampa.

Tanglang69

[Brad]

Nothing wrong with teaching some things to your own daughter that you don't teach to anyone else :)

[18elders]

heard of it, new it but didn't keep training it, wasn't that nice of a form.

[sean_stonehart]

Originally posted by Brad
Nothing wrong with teaching some things to your own daughter that you don't teach to anyone else :)

Head of an old saying once (read -- dunno if true or not) pertaining to village arts. It said they wouldn't teach the sons because they'd leave & go to other villages to marry, taking the village art with them. So instead they taught the daughters since they stayed in the village after marrying & taught her family instead.

Kinda sounds like that in a way too...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

LOL.. why even discuss it if it's a secret.. it seems like bait to attract the poor deluded souls that believe they might find favor and receive the "secret" form as reward for their years of dedication.. (too many can enlighten you on the rewards of dedication)..

In today's culture, the necessity for "secrets" is largely extinct.. it is unlikely that Mimi will be faced with a combat situation where the "secret" will make the difference.. More likely, it is a genius marketing tactic, attracting the deluded desciples dreaming of acquiring the "secret".. in reality, Wah Lum would serve itself better with a sparring program that actually trained the fighters to use the techniques.. When i was there (1990-2002) the sparring classes were uncontrolled brawls with Wah Lum techniques abandoned in favor of a "win".. The system itself spawned few, if any, truly Wah Lum fighters.. most of the good fighters from Wah Lum brought their prowess from other styles.. WL was mostly the preservation of forms (which changed often and without explanation)..

That is not to imply that Wah Lum is without superior technique and skill.. only that no one there had the discipline to enforce the sparring classes to use those skills.. Troy P. was the last sparring coach that had the knowledge and experience to teach true technique and valid fighting skills.. but, sparring was not emphasized, it was a once a week option that few took advantage of and MC rarely bothered to observe.. I hope things have improved since i left..

Be well...

[yu shan]

TCB

Hmm, I often wondered why the forms were changed often and without any explanation. At first, it was quite frustrating, but just had to learn to except. Now I have learned that Shifu`s add and subtract "stuff" in forms. This for many reasons. Not much time right now to get into.

[18elders]

don't know why they would consider it a secret form, wasn't anything special. Yao li knows it, have had a few people ask MC about it, he says no such form. Maybe something that he knew once and forgot, or made up at one time but didn't like it. Your best bet is ask Yao Li.

[Mika]

Originally posted by sean_stonehart


Head of an old saying once (read -- dunno if true or not) pertaining to village arts. It said they wouldn't teach the sons because they'd leave & go to other villages to marry, taking the village art with them. So instead they taught the daughters since they stayed in the village after marrying & taught her family instead.

Kinda sounds like that in a way too...

The saying does exist and it's definitely factual. You just confrused [sic] daughters with sons; the sons do not leave, the daughters do. It's actually like that (or at least has been) in many, many cultures around the world (that the sons stay with the family). So, the arts were never or very, very rarely passed on to daughters. In this case (Wah Lum), there probably was no alternative. And that tradition doesn't apply to Mimi anyway. Times, they are a-changing...;)

//mika

[sayloc]

What good is a secret form if you dont know how to use it?

A radio would not do you much good if you did not know how to turn it on. even if it was a one of a kind radio.

[Brad]

Hmm, I often wondered why the forms were changed often and without any explanation. At first, it was quite frustrating, but just had to learn to except. Now I have learned that Shifu`s add and subtract "stuff" in forms. This for many reasons. Not much time right now to get into.
My teacher does this sometimes(esp. with Xiao Baji Quan). Sometimes it's because he learned it different ways from different teachers, so he memorized the variations. I also think he teaches some forms a bit different to each of us, depending on our previous martial arts background or different attributes.

[yu shan]

Thanks Brad, I knew in WL that they alter forms according to your ability. I can understand this, because the forms were difficult and very stressful on the body. Most of the time these regular changes were minute. Seemed like the changes came about every two years.

More later, need rest.

[brassmonkey]

" and some things will remain in the family. That will stay with me. And even as Americanized as I am, keeping that tradition to me is the most important thing."

So its the sake of keeping a secret because of tradition. But the twist, her dad didnt learn Way Lum from his father, so where is this tradition she speaks of?

[BeiTangLang]

K guys,..how about turning to a productive thread to post something on? this gossip page has gone on long enough.
Way too long actually.

[yu shan]

"what good is a secret form if you don`t know how to use it"

Good point Sayloc, I wonder if Mimi is learning the applications to all these secret forms? For her sake, I hope so. If she is being handed down the family style, this is going to be tuff. Mimi is a very sweet young lady.

My 11 years with Wah Lum were in Tampa with Shifu Art D. and I`m very proud of that fact. Also trained with Shifu Sean Cochran. I feel very lucky to have had such high quality Shifu`s.

I visited the Temple alot, I never saw anyone doing conditioning, two-person drills, applications... there is the WL two-man form though. Wah Lum has tan tui, they do not teach the tan tui exercises. And they don`t even know them. So if any WL posters would like to learn a few of these, look me and 18-Elders up at the tournament. We can show you the single version and if time permits, the two-person. This is a great conditioning exercise, and you will enjoy!

[brassmonkey]

"K guys,..how about turning to a productive thread to post something on? this gossip page has gone on long enough.
Way too long actually"

would kung fu and Preying Mantis be better off if this thread is deleted and not discussed again?

[mantiskilla]

No. maybe it'll save someone some time and money.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

One has to wonder... if WL can influence attendees and participants in an "open" tournament.. could they also influence what is discussed in an internet forum..

Be well..

[BeiTangLang]

Bob,..I would like to think you know me better than that from prior discussions,...but this thread has been side-stepping actual mantis style & technique for a while.

Yu Shan, I didn't ask anything idiotic or rude. There have been informational parts to this thread which is why I have let it keep rolling, but its loosing momentum & is being a non-productive gossip pit discussion.

Mantis is like a fine wine; why not discuss the liquid rather than the vessel it came in?:cool:

[Mediocrity]

I'm sorry, but all I got out of reading why some of you left Wah Lum was....

"Wah wah wah politics wah wah....... wah"

When did Kung Fu become about politics and not about learning Kung Fu? Who cares who hates what and why Sigung Chan wont teach you the "real wah lum"?

If you can't find solace in just learning Kung Fu and figuring it out for yourself (yes you're supposed to figure a good bit out for yourself, not have the teacher lead you by the hand to ever little application or detail) then maybe you shouldnt be learning martial arts at all.

Sorry if you got offended by this, but these are really dumb reasons for quitting a style. If you make it about the politics, then you'll be ****ed off about it anyway... politics are something students shouldnt care about anyway.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I started this thread to dispel the rumor that the 'greats' of Wah Lum all left because they weren't learning apps. I know for a fact that they all had diffferent reasons for leaving so I opened this thread so that we could hear from them personally and not second hand.

Some spoke up, others didn't. It's done. It's over. Anyone still wanting to know I suggest you contact them personally. Why take the word of disgruntled ex-students. Better to go to the source.

BTL,
I don't really want to delete this thread but can you lock out new posts? I think it's done. There was more than enough time to speak up if any of them felt it neccessary. Thanks for your patience.

[BeiTangLang]

Thanks for asking. I too believe it is done.
Well-Done.


Best wishes to all,
~BTL