Return of the Knees

[reneritchie]

(Possible PrideFC Body Blow spoiler warning)


Well, anyone who watched Pride last night saw just how fast knee strikes could not only end fights, but completely turn them around.

We have knees built into our Chum Kiu and Wooden Dummy sets, and extract them for pad work and other stuff, but haven't emphasized them a great deal. Anyone here spend a lot of time on them?

(And, wrt PrideFC BB, just how fricken hard could Fedor hit from the guard, body structure or no body structure???)

[yuanfen]

Rene asks-
We have knees built into our Chum Kiu and Wooden Dummy sets, and extract them for pad work and other stuff, but haven't emphasized them a great deal. Anyone here spend a lot of time on them?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I dont watch TV much- so no PRIDE for me.


Short answer- yes. Have to be careful about not being off balance
or stiff for wing chun motions.

BTW-Rene-

In the upcoming Inside Kung Fu issue's cover there is a pic of a well known wing chun sifu simultaneously controlling, chopping and kneeing a poor helpless Damo ii. There was no "rehearsal" ahead of time for that shot---relatively spontaneous- but of course in the context of a camera shot.

joy

[reneritchie]

C'mon, Joy, the facial expression must have taken a little practice ;)

http://www.cfw2.com/assets/images/site/cfw/IKFCOV1.GIF

[reneritchie]

BTW- Congrats on the article! Hopefully it will penetrate up the frozen great lakes so I can read it one day...

[yuanfen]

The devil is in the details.

[hunt1]

I was taught knee usage in my WC from almost the very beginning. Spent a good bit of time on learning how to use them,proper angle to use ,targets, etc.

[Ish]

not sure where in chum kui these knees are but i do practice them on the pads and on my brother quite a bit.

Anyone mind enlightening me as to where in th forms i might find these devestating strikes. :)

[pseudoswitch]

At the beginning of every kick dude :)

[reneritchie]

pseudoswitch is correct. Also, in the Sum Nung dummy set, there are separate knee strikes apart from the kicks.

[yuanfen]

Conceptually- knee development is in every form- including the dummy and weapons forms.
Folks who look for "techniques" are easily misled in understanding the forms.
Knees involve close contact work- hence they are more explicit
in dummy work...where you are in contact.
joy chaudhuri

[KenWingJitsu]

"Anyone here spend a lot of time on them?"

Ya. frequently.

And Rene, how dare you sully this wing chun forum with such posts about those fighting barbarians. they are no match for wing chun. After all we have all the answers :D

[reneritchie]

KWJ - "Answers" is a moving target. If you think you have them, its only because you lost sight of it and gave up the chase ;)

What kind of training do you do? Lotsa pad work? I like the results but the loss of stability concerns me.

We have an MMA trainer here, super nice guy who was an amazing wrestler and is also a Renzo purple. He trains a lot of UCC fighters, and one of his guys (David L'Oiseaux) will be in the UFC against Weir. They seemed to train to take advantage of the clinch, inviting elbows or knees so they can get close enough for some slick singles or doubles (their form of "recovery techniques" ;)

[AndrewS]

Hey Rene,

the knee stuff I do (which should overlap KWJ a lot)-

-pad work
-repeated air sequences combining the body mechanics driving my knee with hand work
- working to transitions from the knee
on the dummy using the middle arm and body
l-ots of time in the 'plum', first just with knees, then with knees and elbows, then with anything goes (this is our 5th program lat sao, fwiw- and ofr the purists- see the picks of the Fung family applying in 'Roots and Branches')
-transitions to knees from kicks, caught kicks, and jammed kicks
-use of knees as components of forms application (i.e. set pieces) worked under variable pressure
-sacrifice throws from knees transitioning to knee on belly when balance is broken
-dropping knees from standing on a laying heavy bag
-knees from side control on laying heavy bag

Application of all of the above under light, medium, and heavy contact conditions- usually working light to medium

Lastly, after the first year or so in, knees are pretty much fair anytime in our training when things are a bit more free.

Later,

Andrew

[canglong]

We have knees built into our Chum Kiu and Wooden Dummy sets, and extract them for pad work and other stuff, but haven't emphasized them a great deal. Anyone here spend a lot of time on them? --RR

What about defense of this type of attack anything you would like to emphasize in defense of an attacker using knees in the manner of the photograph on the link? Care to discuss the attack position or the flaws in the defense as shown in the photograph?

http://www.cfw2.com/assets/images/site/cfw/IKFCOV1.GIF

[reneritchie]

AndrewS - Excellent! Great stuff, and thanks much! Do you spend a lot of time on knees, in terms of overall percentage of training?

Tony - I would rather not discuss a theatrically staged magazine cover, it can too easily be misconstrued as an attempt to single out another member and branch of the WCK family.

[canglong]

Fair enough what about defending against a knee...

[reneritchie]

Tony - It's not my area of expertise, but here are some thoughts FWIW. Flying knees from a distance usually telegraph (doesn't mean they're not dangerous or can't catch you unaware, but does mean they establish path earlier on and give you a larger buffer), and you can treat as you would a kick or any other powerful, driving attack coming your way. In close, I try to make sure I'm the one controlling balance and momentum, making it difficult for them to think of kneeing, and if not, at least using my lower body to interfere with there's, hopefully preventing the easy execution. If by poor fortune or preponderance of talent, they have control (eg. Thai Boxer has you around the neck), then I try to shield and choke the knees and regain my own alignment as fast as possible. On the ground, I would use their set up for the knee as my chance to escape/reverse/retaliate, and if I can't, I'd shield, wait for another transitory moment, and try again.

(Lan Gerk this or Gum Sao that, IMHO, is a technical response far too dependant on individual conditions, so I'm sticking to overall strategy).

What's your approach to the situation?

[fa_jing]

First of all, they should be more worried about my knees. :D

Secondly, there's a way to throw them by stepping across and
behind their standing leg while controlling the upper body.

One of the worst is if they get you bent over, then knee your face.

Punches and knees are my best weapons, everthing else is to set these up.

[fa_jing]

Don't forget the knee to the opponent's thigh (defend by removing the leg) and the good 'ole knee to the groin (don't know how to practice or defend that one)

[AndrewS]

Hey Rene,

knees as a percentage of training. Hmmm. The application stuff (lat sao) for 5 SG is about 1/3 knees, the rest serious elbow time. Figure for that time period (3-6 months), you should log about 1/3 your practice time in that environment. Roughing in it out, that works out to about 10% of your time in during that training period will be knees. After that, how much time you spend there depends on many things.

On a side note- defense against close knees is taught from SG1 on (as a variant on a low round kick defense progression- closing footwork, stop kick, pak gherk, yup/bong gherk, knee defense).

Trying to estimate an actually time percentage is hard- the 10% for 5SG is probably the top end of time spent. If you were spending 3-6 months where your primary material was technical chi sao with your application stuff having minimal chi gherk (SG 6,7,8), then the percentage would be lower, unless you choose to work stuff on your own.

Once you're past 5 SG, knees are fair game, so people tend to get used to dealing them out and dealing with them.

As I ramble through this, here's the best way to sum up how I train- I'll work cyclically. I may obsess on knees (as much as injuries permit) for a month or two, and work them in various permutations for several hours a week, then I'll probably wind up backing off and concentrating on something else for a while, doing a bit of knee work as maintenance. Usually, just teaching my juniors provides a good bit of that.

How do you work knees?

Later,

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

The best way to train the knees is simply to start using them when sparring/grappling... which is the best test to find out when and how to throw them and defend against them...TWC uses a number of elbow strike/grab the back of the head/neck area and follow with the knee techniques...and vice-versa (grab the back of the head/neck area and knee strike first - then strike with the elbow of the other arm, etc.)

As regards defending against them from a standing position: I think plan A is usually to raise one of your knees...plan B to use your hands (ie.- the Muay Thai type fighter grabs around your head with both hands and begins the knee strike...cup both of your hands something like a horizontal wing chun butterfly palm position and block/grab the knee - then immediately release one hand to bring back up to the higher line of engagement ( ie.- his two hands around your head) and work from there - you should now be able to manipulate his balance to your advantage.

[KenWingJitsu]

There ya go Andrew.

I'll just let Andrew use the technical terms while I provide the emotionally charged commentary ;). Oh by the way Andy, my car died which is why you haven't seen me in a bit. I shall however be back as soon as I can.

Rene good point about using the 'load up of the knee to escape ground position. Yes I train as Andrew described, but also sometimes isolate spar the knee. Just "knee sparring" in the clinch. Both guy trying to whack each other with nothing but knees. Later all, add it to the overall game. (This comes AFTER) the pad work and solo mechanics/drilling work).

[canglong]

So far I have only been taught one method specifically to defend against a knee attack and that is a forearm to the thigh bone simple but effective. Most of the power generated to deflect and redirect will be generated by the person using the knee and when you make contact with the thigh it will really hurt...Desertwingchun2 blocked my knee and my thigh was sore for 2 months but I know where he lives so....:D

How do you differentiate between an arm attack or a leg attack or do you differentiate between the two?

[AndrewS]

Dhira (is there an 'e' in there, or am I confused),

whenever you make it back, cool, let's work. We can play after class now- I've got a set of keys. :-))

Joe Perry has just moved back to OC. Dunno where, but you might be able to hook up with him to train, too. Matt, one of the new guys, is from around Anaheim, too. Good guy, much potential, and has all the tools and heart to be be an excellent flyweight for full-contact. He's a beginner, but he's smart and game. Worth looking up.

The 'load up and escape from ground'- next time we get together, let's play with this some. I've been working on some nice short knee stuff from the top position which you might like to play with and also wanna find the holes.

Later,

Andrew

[Ultimatewingchun]

Canglong: How to differentiate between an arm or leg attack?

Great Question! The first magazine article ever written by Grandmaster William Cheung in Inside Kung Fu magazine back in 1984 was entitled: "The Elbow is the Key".

The elbow travels half the speed of the hand when a straight punch is thrown and 4x slower than the fist when a round punch is thrown so watching the elbows is easier than watching anywhere else when defending strikes and watching the knees makes it easier to "see" and differentiate what kind of kick is coming at you ( for the very same reason). The elbows and knees are on the inside circumference of the circle in the two examples given and therefore travel slower than the fist and foot respectively - therefore it is much easier to "see" what's coming in time to counter when using this method. Practice with a partner asking him to throw various punches and kicks at you from just outside of contact range and you will see what I mean...START OUT WATCHING THE LEAD ELBOW DIRECTLY since this is his nearest weapon to you and with peripheral vision try to pick up the knee OPPOSITE to his lead arm...see if you can hold both images simultaneously and begin working from there...Obviously the situation will constantly change so PRACTICE THIS OFTEN to increase your skill at it.

I guarantee your fighting skills will take a QUANTUM LEAP after doing this consistently for a period of time.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Canglong (Tony Jacobs):

My mistake: the Inside Kung Fu magazine article written by Grandmaster William Cheung entitled "The Elbow Is The Key" was the front page lead article of the OCTOBER, 1982 issue.

[yuanfen]

Ultimatewingchun speaks of-
the Inside Kung Fu magazine article written by Grandmaster William Cheung entitled "The Elbow Is The Key"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no grandmaster in wing chun...perhaps you mean in TWC....
also a competent person can give out misleading signals.
Depending on visible cues from the elbow is not the best of ideas...
since by your own observarion the elbow is slower...

[Ultimatewingchun]

As regards your remarks about watching the elbow...

AGAIN: NO CLUE!

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
As regards your remarks about watching the elbow...

AGAIN: NO CLUE!
Apparently. Perceptive of you to admit it. :p

Certainly, the elbows are the key to good Wing Chun.

In regards to knees and elbows, are others working to link them structurally, or are they only envisioned as striking points?

Regards,

[canglong]

Parlati Sifu thank you for the helpful insight and I will try and find that article for a further study sounds very interesting.

[Ultimatewingchun]

My first CLUE post should have read:

"Yuanfen, as regards YOUR remarks about watching elbows, my response once again is - You have no clue."

[yuanfen]

Clue? What's the mystery?

I am not a TWC person...and understand the difference
between understanding the good wc mechanics and role of the elbow on the one hand and
the TWC "watching the lead elbow" on the other..

[reneritchie]

In regards to knees and elbows, are others working to link them structurally, or are they only envisioned as striking points?

Sure, as they're the middle of the classic developmental progression in body unity (shoulders/hips, knees/elbows, hands/feet).


"Yuanfen, as regards YOUR remarks about watching elbows, my response once again is - You have no clue."

It's usually more constructive to comment on the methodology rather than the person. Every method has its strong and weak points, and it takes an overall approach to maximize the former and minimize the latter. One of our biggest problems in WCK is people mistaking one sifu or person's teaching approach with "the absolute truth" of WCK. Once we get past that, its just comparing and contrasting different approaches.