Taijiquan as a Qigong

[Vapour]

I do know that taijiquan is a form of qigong. However, what is your opinion of limitation of taijiquan as a qigong. That is if you practice taijiquan as a martial arts.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Not sure what you're getting at. Taiji is a complete Qigong, it stimulates all the 12 main meridians and the 8 extraordinary vessels to. Most importantly its central equilibrium aspect maintains a constant stimulation to the Zhong Mei too. Taiji is recognised as a complete qigong.

[Vapour]

O.K. for example, for purely external point, when I do white crane qigong, we strech upward from toes to fingers. You don't do that kind of movement in taijiquan. So taijiquan may be missing out certain movement because of its restriction as an effective martial arts.

Secondly, i'm not sure in other school but in our school we do not cordinate breathing with the movement of the form. As long as breath is fine, calm, long and slow we could be breathing in or out whatever the point of movement in the form. The reason for this is that from martial point of view, cordinating (forcing) breath with movements not only tense you up but also tend to destroy the fluidity of movement which is esseitnal if you want to apply taijiquan as a martial arts.

And lastly, as far as I know, taijiquan is o.k. as a general health exercise, but if someone has particular problem with, say, kidney, one should do particular type of movement to stimulate kidney and avoid doing other type of movement.

Any comment?

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Vapour
O.K. for example, for purely external point, when I do white crane qigong, we strech upward from toes to fingers. You don't do that kind of movement in taijiquan. So taijiquan may be missing out certain movement because of its restriction as an effective martial arts.


This might not be applicable to your specific style.

We try to stretch the whole body and lengthen all the limbs during TJQ form practice.



Secondly, i'm not sure in other school but in our school we do not cordinate breathing with the movement of the form. As long as breath is fine, calm, long and slow we could be breathing in or out whatever the point of movement in the form. The reason for this is that from martial point of view, cordinating (forcing) breath with movements not only tense you up but also tend to destroy the fluidity of movement which is esseitnal if you want to apply taijiquan as a martial arts.


Both TJQ styles I studied co-ordinated brathing with the movements, it was part of kai/he.



And lastly, as far as I know, taijiquan is o.k. as a general health exercise, but if someone has particular problem with, say, kidney, one should do particular type of movement to stimulate kidney and avoid doing other type of movement.


Specific ailments will always call for specific treatments.

Said that TJQ has helped get rid of lot of daily ouches and aches I used to get, as well as helped heal/ease some injuries.

Cheers.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Laughing Cow


This might not be applicable to your specific style.

We try to stretch the whole body and lengthen all the limbs during TJQ form practice.



What I meant was that you stand on you both toes and strech upward like a superman. I don't think any taijiquan has such step.

[Laughing Cow]

Originally posted by Vapour

What I meant was that you stand on you both toes and strech upward like a superman. I don't think any taijiquan has such step.

None of the TJQ I am familiar with, but we do something slightly different during warmup.

Cheers.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Either your teacher does not know their Taiji or they haven't taught you yet but the breathing will eventually have to co-oridnate with the movements. I don't know how long you've been doing Taiji but I have to beilieve that its not been for many years because co-ordinated breathing will help the body relax even more. There is a big big big difference between co-ordinated breathing and forced breathing primarily them being the complete opposite of each other. There fore when you force your breath I can undertsand why you tense up, but if the breathing is co-ordinated properly you will habe Sung and be more relaxed than ever.

Taiji is probably the best exercise for your Kidneys you could ever have. In fact doing Taiji will refine your Jing and thus automatically galvanise your Kidneys, espcially from a martial art point of view too. Again I very much question the quality of Taiji you are being taught in your school if it proffers such questions.

You don't need to go up ont the toes to circulate qi through them. And I'm sorry but acting like Superman in a Taiji class won't make you like him either.
If you get to undertsand the postures and movements and even the very basics of TCM aswell as medical Qi-gong you will see that Taiji is probably the most complete qi-gong you could want.

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
Either your teacher does not know their Taiji or they haven't taught you yet but the breathing will eventually have to co-oridnate with the movements. I don't know how long you've been doing Taiji but I have to beilieve that its not been for many years because co-ordinated breathing will help the body relax even more. There is a big big big difference between co-ordinated breathing and forced breathing primarily them being the complete opposite of each other. There fore when you force your breath I can undertsand why you tense up, but if the breathing is co-ordinated properly you will habe Sung and be more relaxed than ever.

Taiji is probably the best exercise for your Kidneys you could ever have. In fact doing Taiji will refine your Jing and thus automatically galvanise your Kidneys, espcially from a martial art point of view too. Again I very much question the quality of Taiji you are being taught in your school if it proffers such questions.

You don't need to go up ont the toes to circulate qi through them. And I'm sorry but acting like Superman in a Taiji class won't make you like him either.
If you get to undertsand the postures and movements and even the very basics of TCM aswell as medical Qi-gong you will see that Taiji is probably the most complete qi-gong you could want.

Firstly, I do breath out if I have to relax further in my form. However, in our school, not coordinating breathing is an explicit instruction in performance of the form. Because this did not accord with my idea taijiquan I did ask few times. And every new students do ask this question in our school as well.

Explanation I got from a senior student was this. If you think from martial point of view, there is no way you can coordinate your breath with your movement.

If, say, you breath out when you push. When you are doing pushing hand or fighting, what happen if you have to push one way and then push another way consequtively. You breath out in first one and breath out again? You will be out of breath. Your opponent will move according to his advantage not to your rythm of breathing. Coordinating your movement in pushing hand or combat means that your opponent movement are going to dictate your breathing as we always follow and yield to the opponent.

Only way to maintain calm breathing even in pushing hand or fighting is to maintain your rythme of the breathing no matter what type of movements you are doing. Hence the movement and breathing cannot be coordinated. We do coordinate our breathing in NeiGong exercise, on the other hand. Anyway, for this reason, I guess that martial taijiquan may be missing out full benefit of qigong.

In regard to qigong, qigong form we perform do lot of things we wouldn't do in taijiquan such as streching your arm upward or bending knee more thatn 90 degree which you can't do in taijquan simply because of its martial implication. So I guess that we may not getting full health benefit which qigong offer by just practicing taijiquan.

My question was not whether taijiquan is good for kidney. Read my original comment more carefully. In TCM, as far as I know what is yang for one organ could be ying for other organ. So if some patient has, say, heart problem, I thought as a matter of common sence that, appropriate qigong expercise include particular movement which benefit heart but not the other movement which is not so benfitical for the heart. In such case, taijiquan form whose sequence are fixed is not taiilored for this particular patient.

In your school, it may be the case that you coordinate your breathing in the form performance but not aim to do so in free style pushhand. As with anything, different schools has different approach to get to the same thing.

[prana]

I see it as multiple roads to the same place. IMO both of you are speaking of the same thing ultimately.

Wether your emphasis is on the movement or the breathing, your mind will come to a point where the breathe is regulated and almost "gone".

Back to the original topic, TJQ is a very good QiGong steps, and the movements might be important in the first few 50 steps (not literally) of the way, but really at the end of it, its more in the mind.

hmmmm this might come across really cryptic, sorry bout that

[Vapour]

Originally posted by prana
I see it as multiple roads to the same place. IMO both of you are speaking of the same thing ultimately.

Wether your emphasis is on the movement or the breathing, your mind will come to a point where the breathe is regulated and almost "gone".

Back to the original topic, TJQ is a very good QiGong steps, and the movements might be important in the first few 50 steps (not literally) of the way, but really at the end of it, its more in the mind.

hmmmm this might come across really cryptic, sorry bout that

No. Your comment is very sensitive and helpful. Thank you.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Tai Chi is like a construction project.. building a well-designed road.. Now, if you have a poorly maintained road, a flat, bumpy dirt road (body), even the best sports car (Chi) capable of great performance wont perform well.. Tai Chi trains the body to be a good road so the Sports car (Chi) can perform best.. Common to the construction and the car is the mind behind it.. the mind directs the construction and steers the car..

Ultimately, it is our will and intention that powers even the mind.. and that is the spirit (shen).. it's like the gas that powers the car, the energy that powers the body.. Tai Chi, QiGong, Meditation, originate and are dependent on the will and intention (spirit).. start there and the details will become self evident.. At some point it becomes clear that chi can be directed and used effectively by will alone.. but, at least for me, i'm still working on my construction project, so i can "get it".. i've had glimpses during construction, but i am patiently waiting for the whole picture..

Just another perspective, Be well..

[Repulsive Monkey]

Elegant and succinct, equally.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Thanks, but.. did you ever consider that it might only be one of those flashbacks i paid for in the '60s.. (oops, giving away my age).. But, really, respectful thanks... i get lucky with words from time to time...

Be well..

[dfedorko@mindspring.com]

I'm no expert and I don't know about anyone else but when I walk in Tai Chi I either walk heel to toe/toe to heel. Wouldn't that be strecthing the feet. What about rooster standing on one leg??? Have a nice day??

[Nexus]

Vapour,

I understand the question you're asking perfectly as it comes up all the time in our Oriental Healing Arts Center. The deal with the obvious differences in Qi Gong's and Tai Chi (Qi Gong) is that all tai chi postures are designed to maximize powerful attitudes, whereas the same is not true for all qi gong postures. That's why you won't see someone stretching up and wiggling their fingers at the sky in an off-balance attitude during a tai chi form. Tai chi's primary focus was always martial attitude and maximizing powerful postures, and the health benefits were always there because the attitudes were designed with health in mind.

good question, and there is more of an answer to it then what I have provided, but this should answer it in a general sense.

[pokomkno3]

I do Taijiquan forms as a Qigong exercise

I do a lot of forms ~ but I don't know anything about tai chi ~ I just do it as a chi kung exercise
.
I learn forms from books and videos ~ I don't have teachers ~ I don't know anything at all about tai chi as a martial art
.

[YinOrYan]

I do Taijiquan forms as a Qigong exercise

I do a lot of forms ~ but I don't know anything about tai chi ~ I just do it as a chi kung exercise
.
I learn forms from books and videos ~ I don't have teachers ~ I don't know anything at all about tai chi as a martial art
.

Chi Kung, Tai Chi, and Kung Fu are all the same to me now. Sometimes I will do a slow form fast or a fast form slow...

[pokomkno3]

Chi Kung, Tai Chi, and Kung Fu are all the same to me now. Sometimes I will do a slow form fast or a fast form slow...

I tend to go fast sometimes if I'm angry about something ~ otherwise I do everything slowly and carefully because of my bad knees ~ except circle walking ~ I prefer to walk fast