No shadow kick

[Lews]

I have a question I have seen many Donnie Yen/Jet Li movies, and I know that this technique looks a little funny on screen but I was told that Wong Fei Hung made it famous. Can anyone please tell me what this technique looks like (roundhouse, frontkick, etc.)

[Sho]

A kick that doesn't leave any trace in terms of perception until it hits the target. :D

[Losttrak]

From what my sifu has told me, Wong Fei Hung would do criss-crossing swipes at the eyes which would conceal his speedy kick coming from underneath. Nothing other than a visual trick combined with great skill and speed. The times I have seen my sifu re-enact what it allegedly looked like... it seemed to be a nutshot. :eek:

[tparkerkfo]

Hi Lews,


Originally posted by Lews
I have a question I have seen many Donnie Yen/Jet Li movies, and I know that this technique looks a little funny on screen but I was told that Wong Fei Hung made it famous. Can anyone please tell me what this technique looks like (roundhouse, frontkick, etc.)

If you seen all those movies and thought the technique looked a little funny on screen, then I would have expected you knew which kick it was. LOL.

I have not learned any shadowless kick. I don't know if it actually existed as a specific kick. I doubt it. I think Sho was close in saying it is a non-telgraphing kick. Our instructor jokes about it occasionally and it usually in context of a kick you don't see. It is fast and unseen, hence it doesn't leave a shadow. If you are kicked while you are distracted, you never see the kick and wonder what hit you. This is a common trait in wing chun. It is just an application.

Now, some one will probably step in to prove me wrong and identify a specific kick. LOL.

Just my opinion at the moment
Tom
________
LAMBORGHINI GALLARDO (http://www.lamborghini-tech.com/wiki/Lamborghini_Gallardo)

[jo]

Losttrak....

Gin Foon Mark is famous for his "Iron Fan Fingers" to the eyes.

This would be more then enough for you to forget his kicks.....until you felt them! :p

[joedoe]

Originally posted by tparkerkfo
Hi Lews,



If you seen all those movies and thought the technique looked a little funny on screen, then I would have expected you knew which kick it was. LOL.

I have not learned any shadowless kick. I don't know if it actually existed as a specific kick. I doubt it. I think Sho was close in saying it is a non-telgraphing kick. Our instructor jokes about it occasionally and it usually in context of a kick you don't see. It is fast and unseen, hence it doesn't leave a shadow. If you are kicked while you are distracted, you never see the kick and wonder what hit you. This is a common trait in wing chun. It is just an application.

Now, some one will probably step in to prove me wrong and identify a specific kick. LOL.

Just my opinion at the moment
Tom

This too is my understanding of the no-shadow kick.

[cha kuen]

I have been told that the no shadow kick is something completely different. There are 3 types of no shadow kick: high, mid, lower. It is when you have the guy's hands trapped or in a chin na ...in a way that the guy's head is turned.

Then you can kick (at any speed you want) and the guy cannot see it. I kind of know one of them but was never specifically taught yet.

[Sho]

It's magic. :D

[Ben Gash]

Cha Kuen is close. It's basically a kick with high hand techniques which obscure/distract from the kick and also create a bridge for it.

[GreyMystik]

it is said that WFH acquired this technique from another master, and that he traded the "iron wire" form for it.
considering the "iron wire" form is at the very least ONE of the highest, if not "the" highest form in hung gar kuen, i SERIOUSLY doubt that WFH is going to trade knowledge in it for a "trick kick".
would you trade your highest form knowledge to someone to learn how to distract them with your hands whilst throwing a lower kick? in my opinion, this is absurd. the no-shadow kick is based on speed, not misdirection.

[cha kuen]

Ben Gash is close.

It's the way I said it was which is more complex than flurrying your hands at someone's face at a high speed.

[Golden Arms]

"The hands hide the feet" Try that concept out in sparring long enough and you will start to find some cool things :)

[illusionfist]

no shadow kick= turning off the lights and kicking somebody :D

On a serious note. There are three kicking methods in hung gar and what most people describe as the no shadow kick is actually a gwai gerk (ghost kick). Since these are actual methods, it is not just a simple kick or one technique. It has to do with execution and an underlying theory.

Mok Gwai Lan (WFH's 4th wife) was quoted saying that the mo ying gerk is, "the most murderous technique" she knows and that she would never use it.

[jo]

Forms are soooooooooo over-rated when it comes to fighting.

Just what does "the highest-level form" mean to you?

As a way of ranking actual fighting skill?

Does a man who knows half as many forms as another automatically have half the fighting skill?

People are in SUCH a rush to "know" as many form as possible that they "can't see the trees because of the forest!"

[illusionfist]

I dont see how GreyMystiks answer stressed anything about forms aside from the importance that Hung Kuen places on Tit Sin Kuen itself. I dont see how that mentions anything about forms accumulation. Just think about what was said. Why would somebody trade basically the entire system at the time for just one technique? It would have to be something more.

The reason why Tit Sin Kuen is placed in a high regard is because it exhibits all the principles of the system.

[cha kuen]

Wong Fei Hong had 4 wives? ****, what a pimp! He sounds like a kung fu version of ROSS on friends! hAHAHhA

[Golden Arms]

Good post Illusionfist. If you want any more of an answer than what Illusion posted, go train and all will be made clear over time. :D

[diego]

so buddy punches right leg forward wieghted and throws a right straight punch. with your left foot quikly stp to the left to evade the punch and then quickly step into your opponent ending up in a right twist stance (weight on right leg) and with your right hand grab the outside of his right wrist and your left hand traps the outside of his right elbow...pull his arm down theoretically setting him off balance, and then pivot on your right foot and swing a left side kick to the outside of his right knee breaking his root theoretically...follow up after.
Is this a shadowless kicking tactic...pull his arm down and slip in a kick?. I'm asking because hop gar which i got this tech from is supposed to have hungga influences!?.

Anyone know?.:)

[Golden Arms]

Hmm..could be or could not be....often different arts have similar concepts under different names...a lot of the no shadow stuff seems to be like throwing something in somones face as you hit them with a lower kick that they never see.

[diego]

Thanks golden arms, would grabbing the inside of his right arm with your left and slamming a overhead fist into his face with your right simultaneously pivoting on your left and slipping a right stomp kick to his front right knee fit as a shadow technique?.

[BigJake]

There's a southern style kicking video that supposedly teaches the "no shadow" kick. I haven't viewed the video but it claims to teach "authentic Southern style kicking techniques and their practical applications, seldom seen or taught even in reputable Southern style schools. Learn how to perform kicks like the no shadow kick, roundhouse nail kick, tiger tail kick, instep shovel kick and much, much more. All learn safe warm up procedures."

http://www.wccma.com/videos.htm

[hasayfu]

Finally getting through the WFH special issue of Kung Fu Tai Chi and I noticed an article by Johnny Jang where he describes Hung Gar's Mo Ying Gerk (No Shadow Kick)

He shows it as a kick using the rear leg BEHIND the lead leg. (A picture would be so much easier to describe. Guess you have to look at the Mag) This movement is NOT in any of the Ling Nam forms but it is a common lion dance movement.

It's "no shadow" because the kick comes from under and behind.

I have my thoughts about this topic but I wanted to see what the southern community thought of it.

[CLFNole]

I am a CLF player but I also read the article and was very suprised to see that was the Mo Ying Gerk. It wasn't what I expected it might look like and from the sound of your post I guess it is not like you may play it.

It didn't seem to be all that practical for such a famous kick.

[TenTigers]

I can't keep track of this. i had first learned it as a concept-that of being deceptive in your kicking. You can use fakes, play with distance,and set ups. Then someone else says it is "screening" with the hands while throwing the kick, as in single leg flying crane. Then someone else says that deceptive kicks are called "Ghost kicking". Someone else says a low snap kick to the groin is the no-shadow kick. Someone else says that is Moon Shadow Kick, Now this article comes and his definition seems way out in left field.
At this point, I am comming to the conclusion that nobody actually knows. Of course, this is the time for someone to say,"Well, we know, and it has been passed down in our family's lineage,yadda-yadda,,," but won't tell.
So, let's hear everyone's version, and put our heads together and try to figure this one out.
I suppose we can start by ruling out Jet Li's WFH version.:rolleyes:

[CLFNole]

We have something in CLF we call "ying sow tek gerk". I guess it could translate as shadow hands kick and might be the same as the "ghost kicking" you were refering to. With us the hand shoots out high with a dan lah for example to distract while the kick comes in low or to the mid section.

[David Jamieson]

mo ying gerk doesn't come from teh rear leg, isn't swung from a hidden post etc etc.

people can say and believe what they like I guess. the decription of no shadow as given by lsw is pretty clear. It doesn't match the one given in the article.

that is all

[TenTigers]

that is all? That is what? You didn't say anything. Please describe Lam Sai-Wing's description, so we can have this discussion. Simply throwing that out there says nothing.

[TonyM.]

I've always delivered the (TM)"No Shadows" kick with the trail leg. I was taught it as a stepping move of a series of low snap kicks delivered with the trail leg while stepping.

[TenTigers]

Tony, I'm not getting what you sadi. Could you describe this more in detail? I'm not sure what you mean by the trail leg.

[fiercest tiger]

TT,

Because its all lies!! ;) I thought no shadow was a kick that is so fast it holds no shadow or you doing something with your hands and the kick has been landed before you could see it?


LMAO does Hung Gar have contest in the WFH tourney who can do the best NO SHADOW KICKS?

Garry

[jethro]

I don't know fu too well but I think that might be a good representation of this.

I think that it is also called the scorpion king and lau is REALLY good, so it is probably mostly movie stuff but his form looks as real and authentic as it gets.

I seriously think that this will help clear up some of these questions, because the no shadow kick that he desribes is one that you can't see coming, sure it leaves no shadow because it is fast, but where the no shadow comes into play is balance, where you can't tell which leg he is going to kick with. Kind of a dumb movie but good action, funny, and a disciple of wong fei-hung himself. He ws not a direct pupil but I believe his masters master was wong, just guessing though.

[htowndragon]

i heard it was a triple kick combo...but that was a long time ago

[GeneChing]

The article by Dr. Johnny Jang was Wong Fei Hung: Great Master of Hung Gar in our May June 2006 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=650) issue. It was submitted at around the same time as May June 2006 cover master Frank Yee's Revealing Hung Ga’s Shadowless Kick from our July August 2005 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=598) issue.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, hasayfu, but Dr. Jang is our da sihing. He began his martial journey at the San Francisco school long before I was even part of the Sunnyvale school...:cool:

[hasayfu]

Hi Gene, I actually did know that he was our sihing. (Not dai sihing/da shixiong). I've also seen him teaching at the Oakland BART station. Looks like you may be stalking him as I think he's with Sifu Tony Chen now. So he's your double sihing? LOL.

I brought this thread up because the kicking techniques are an close map of the ones from a book published circa 1998 from Leung Daat (虎鶴門全功秘笈 - 梁達) Tiger/Crane system's complete secret training manual. The order's changed and there are some additional context but this is the only place I've seen the grouping and specifically this explanation of the mo ying gerk before this article. I wanted to see if anyone else's training included this.

Leung Daat has some interesting stuff but he also has some stuff that, to me, is way out there. Sifu discounts this list but you know how he is.

For me, Mo Ying can be translated as no shadow or no reflection. In other words, untrackable like a stealth aircraft. The key is not the technique (though without technique it's useless) but in the strategy of going undetected.

DJ, I'm also not familiar with what LSW had to say since he never actually wrote anything. :) The older version of his books were compiled by Chu Yu Tsai and said to be taken from direct notes. I don't remember everything he wrote but I remember he mentions Yuet Ying Sao Gerk (moon shadow hand foot) a lot but not Mo Ying Gerk specifically. I don't have Leung Daat's versions (except for the training manual) but LD explicitly states YYSG is NOT MYG. What are you referring to?

[GeneChing]

De do do do, de da da da
Is all I want to say to you
Dai, da, freaking Cantonese. :rolleyes: I should just stick the the mandarin...
And yes, I'm a double shidi under Dr. Jang, but he's the only one I know of. I'm a double shixiong over at least a half dozen people, and even a triple shixiong over one person I know of. What an incestuous bunch, eh?

[cellophane]

In fut ga style mou ying geurk is a common kick. Physics-wise, unless you kick at the speed of light you're leg is always gonna leave a shadow ... but what the heck "no shadow kick" sounds pretty badarse right? Practicality-wise, I'm a beginner and can't kick for beans anyway, but IMO after a whole day of mou-ying-geurking (and being the one being kicked) it works. For the situation it was meant for, which is when you have an opponent to your side.

[Banjos_dad]

Physics-wise, unless you kick at the speed of light you're leg is always gonna leave a shadow ...


except at night.

[cellophane]

Except at night, what an excellent point. Since I have never trained in the dark I never thought of that...

Anyways, I looked at the mo ying geurk in the magazine and it is very, very different from the one I learned, except for the part where the kicking leg is behind the lead leg. I admit a back kick in certain situations might be helpful.

[dleungnyc]

I think a better translation would be "no trace" instead of "no shadow". My memory is very hazy about this, but if I remember correctly about this kick is that, the shoulder doesn't move when you are kicking.

Think about this, stand in front of a mirror to see this. Whenever you kick, your shoulder always move, if/once you train yourself to be able to kick with the power/authority/speed/accuracy without your shoulder moving. It will be very difficult for your opponents to block the kick, in another word, you are not telegraphing your kick at all.

[Lama Pai Sifu]

Someone mentioned about Lau Ga-Leung's Mo Ying Geuk from some movies.

Here is a video clip of LGL demonstrating the MYG.

I was with Lau Ga-Leung last week and he demonstrated the CONCEPT at his student's school; Sifu Mark Houghton. Mark's daughter is in the video and LGL is teacher how to do the kick correctly.

You'll also notice the apparatus used in the school is the same as in LGL's movie with the English title, "Dirty Ho" starring Lau Ga-Fei (Gordon Liu) and Wang-Yu. (Great movie by the way).

As you'll see, it's not a specific kick, but HOW you throw your kicks. Looking straight at your opponent and being able to kick quickly and with no telegraphing body movements.

Enjoy the clip. I filmed LGL doing a lot of stuff that day, he was amazing (and will be 70 in August mind you)

http://www.nykungfu.com/students/LGLMoYingGeukHK.wmv

[X-Warrior]

Just watch any of the Wong Fei Hung movies by Jet Li. Those movies are full of the 'no-shadow' kick: for example the Once Upon a Time in China series. :D

[Sui]

silly sosage strikes again.lol hahahaha lol

[X-Warrior]

silly sosage strikes again.lol hahahaha lol

It was a joke but I guess with an IQ in the negative numbers I wouldn't get it either.

What can one do? Nothing but watch and cry ;-(.

-X-

[Sui]

silly sosage takes not one but 2 days to answer.lol and talks of iq,his m'a is second to none so he thinks.lolhahahahalol.

[Asmo]

Lama Pai Sifu, somehow your websites wont load for us Europeans (either way not for me...). It has always been like that, and a trace stops it at 216.218.217.182 which belongs to "hurricane electric". Maybe thats the hosting company who for some odd reason blocks certain ISP's?

If it would be possible to have an alternative place for that video, or could email it to me, that would be really kind.

edit: nvm, I found a public open proxy which allowed me to get the file. But you might want to be aware of the issue anyway as I was also unable to visit your travel to china page/site a few months ago ...

[X-Warrior]

silly sosage takes not one but 2 days to answer.lol and talks of iq,his m'a is second to none so he thinks.lolhahahahalol.

You really are an empty headed idiot. Who cares about your childish attitude, you must gone mental man, you don't even know me and I never talked to you so no one knows what your problem is. Grow up man! No one here cares to waste their time for idiot clonws like yourself. What is your problem? I never talked to you, I don't know who you are and you don't know who I am so stop being a child.

Write whatever you want, I have better things to do than waste my time with mentally handicapped idiots who call others childish names, especially for no reason.

You really are a stupid one but we do get the likes of you from time to time. Shouldn't you be training instead of having fun with your left hand on the keyboard and your right in your pants?

-X-

[Sui]

lol silly sosage with red hot chilly hahaha

silly sosage--"Grow up man! No one here cares to waste their time for idiot clonws like yourself"

accept the likes of salami here.lol

silly sosage--"I don't know who you are and you don't know who I am.... "

talks of iq.lol

silly sosage--"Shouldn't you be training instead of having fun with your left hand on the keyboard and your right in your pants?"

this is my kind of training,and boy i have lots of fun at your expense.
whats wrong do you concede?then call me master for you have much to learn.hahahahalol

[k-no]

This is one of my most favorite techniques, following a ying sau.

The description of it is not very impressive CLFNole, but it is VERY effective, as General Lacey has taught it to me.

I have used it on Thai Boxers and CLF Players (especially worked on those who were not familiar with the technique) alike with equal success. It doesn't look very deceptive, even on video. But the ratio of people I've caught with it (usually with a surprised look on their face, clutching the stomach, then dropping to the ground) makes it a staple in my arsenal.

k

[Banjos_dad]

Just watch any of the Wong Fei Hung movies by Jet Li. Those movies are full of the 'no-shadow' kick: for example the Once Upon a Time in China series.

these are outstanding films. but i am certain that one one occasion he yells out, "no shadow kick!!" and then flies feet first horizontally towards the enemy giving scissor kicks all the way. the movie i am referring to is that which starts out in the train station where he fights the 3 fugitives... "Channeling!! :mad: " lol

[fiercest tiger]

lmao :) ahhhhhhhhhhh

[PM]

translation of an old article about Mou Ying Geuk

http://naamkyun.com/2012/01/the-shadowless-kick-of-hung-ga-wong-keiying/

enjoy!

[Golden Arms]

Thanks for that PM,

Lots of good information on your site :D

[Runlikehell]

Thanks for the article, very interesting.

[5thBrother]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing :)

[PM]

thnx guys! more interesting stuff on the way, not only Hung Ga, but other Southern Chinese styles as well!

[Runlikehell]

Great to hear, looking forward to it.

[5thBrother]

Hi PM,.. anyone else,

Can you name the teachers in the banner image, I know some such as Ip Shui but interested in who they are, eg. forth from the right guy?.

I think third from right is the hak fun mun teacher?

just curious and can't place them all.

Banner Image Here (http://naamkyun.com/wp-content/themes/socrates/header-images/uploads/naamkyuncom.jpg)

thanks!

[PM]

i will just name the styles, ok? (to be candid, i do not know the names of all the Sifus):

Hung Kyun, Baan Jung Wing Cheun, Bak Sing CLF, Jau Ga, Hap Ga, Mok Ga, Baak Mei, Hak Fu Mun, Southern Mantis, Fujian White Crane

NaamKyun.com is dedicated to all Southern Chinese martial systems, so i tried to pick up some pics of the representative styles

anybody willing to write a guest post or take part in the fun is welcomed!

[5thBrother]

No problems, thanks PM

[Tainan Mantis]

While living in Taiwan I saw a kung fu movie (Wang Feihong-don't know the name in America) where Wang's specialty was his shadowless kick.
Later I asked my teacher, Shi Zhengzhong, about this kick. What was it? Why was it so special?

He said that it was the ability to kick straight up with your heel so that your toe would be touching somewhere between your forehead or chin. Here is a short video of him doing the stretch that shows the ability to do the shadowless kick.

Shi Zhengzhong Stretch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXxaOOMmjDI&feature=channel)

The reason it is so special is that you can stand so close to someone and do a heel kick straight up to their chin like a super powerful uppercut, only this uppercut has the power of your leg, not your arm.
This is not really style specific, does anyone have this kick in their school by this name or another name?

[Yao Sing]

Wah Lum's Elbow To Toe exercise is, for those that can do it, actually supposed to be Chin To Toe. Similar to the stretching seen in the clip you linked but done in the standing position.

Although our high kicks are with the toe I've always been flexible enough to reach the chin with my heel.

Edit: WL seems to change things when they're too difficult for most students so I would suspect it was probably in our forms but changed to Toe Kick when noody could do it correctly. Just like Elbow To Toe changed from Chin To Toe.

[-N-]

The reason it is so special is that you can stand so close to someone and do a heel kick straight up to their chin like a super powerful uppercut, only this uppercut has the power of your leg, not your arm.
This is not really style specific, does anyone have this kick in their school by this name or another name?

Brendan Lai taught this kick as the ultimate ideal of the chang tui front heel kick.

Same explanation as from your teacher.

[PM]

check out this article:

The Shadowless Kick of Hung Ga Wong Keiying


http://naamkyun.com/2012/01/the-shadowless-kick-of-hung-ga-wong-keiying/

it is a translation of an old Chinese article on the subject - short, informative, reliable

[David Jamieson]

Wah Lum's Elbow To Toe exercise is, for those that can do it, actually supposed to be Chin To Toe. Similar to the stretching seen in the clip you linked but done in the standing position.

Although our high kicks are with the toe I've always been flexible enough to reach the chin with my heel.

Edit: WL seems to change things when they're too difficult for most students so I would suspect it was probably in our forms but changed to Toe Kick when noody could do it correctly. Just like Elbow To Toe changed from Chin To Toe.

Chin to Toe is -Dragon eats ashes- in shaolin qigong set.
It is advanced posterior chain stretch and stretches ligament to accommodate pulling the toes back with heel kick. Also lengthens and strengthens the muscles of the legs, hips and butt. Which are your root.

[CFT]

Hi PM,.. anyone else,

Can you name the teachers in the banner image3rd from left. Buk Sing Choi Lee Fut sifu: Lai Chou.

[Yao Sing]

Chin to Toe is -Dragon eats ashes- in shaolin qigong set.
It is advanced posterior chain stretch and stretches ligament to accommodate pulling the toes back with heel kick. Also lengthens and strengthens the muscles of the legs, hips and butt. Which are your root.

It's actually called Kiss The Toe but I prefer Chin To To Toe.

There's also a Wah Lum exercise that fits the description others posted about the No Shadow Kick. We do a kicking drill that's a heel kick with palm strike (palm forward hand horizontal). The palm could cover the eyes so they don't see the kick.

I actually did that in class during some light sparring. I got frustrated because I couldn't hit my opponent so I put my hand in front of his eyes and hit him. He said that was the weirdest thing to do and was ****ed because he couldn't see what was coming.

Edit: The picture in the article linked to by PM is similar to the Wah Lum kicking drill.

[PM]

3rd from left. Buk Sing Choi Lee Fut sifu: Lai Chou.

yes sir :-)

[-N-]

Shadowless or invisible methods apply not just to kicks, but to all kinds of attacks as well as footwork and positioning.

Praying Mantis forms show this a lot.

[doug maverick]

I have a question I have seen many Donnie Yen/Jet Li movies, and I know that this technique looks a little funny on screen but I was told that Wong Fei Hung made it famous. Can anyone please tell me what this technique looks like (roundhouse, frontkick, etc.)

its simply kicking without moving your shoulders, its called no shadow because, they dont see it coming...you practice it by putting two oragne slices or two bowls on your shoulders and start with throwing a front kick and then side kick and then round house, using your waste and supporting ankle as your main source of power generation...it is not a high kick but a mid level one.

[SteveLau]

its simply kicking without moving your shoulders, its called no shadow because, they dont see it coming...you practice it by putting two oragne slices or two bowls on your shoulders and start with throwing a front kick and then side kick and then round house, using your waste and supporting ankle as your main source of power generation...it is not a high kick but a mid level one.

Yep, non-telegraph plus short-range kicks. Quite often, they are executed with a diversion or blocking the vision of the opponents. That makes the kick hard to defense against. Originally, it is a northern kick technique which Wong Fei Hung has acquired through sharing.



KC
Hong Kong

[-N-]

Yep, non-telegraph plus short-range kicks. Quite often, they are executed with a diversion or blocking the vision of the opponents. That makes the kick hard to defense against. Originally, it is a northern kick technique which Wong Fei Hung has acquired through sharing.



KC
Hong Kong

Ah, that makes sense. Brendan Lai said that our heel kick version came from Shaolin.

And in general, your description is basically the idea behind all our shadowless techniques.