why is it so important to take the hip flexors out of ab work?

[rubthebuddha]

why is it so important to take the hip flexors out of ab work? if it's so natural to use them in much of our core movement, what exactly is the purpose in isolating the abs specifically? i'm not feigning ignorance here -- i'm asking an honest question. so please, have at it. :)

[TigerJaw]

AFAIK, totally isolating the abs is not strictly necersary. In fact, for MA it may not be a great idea to do it as you want strong hip-flexors for kicking. I think the problem comes when people do sit-ups without curling their trunk at all. Some people (I'm sure you've seen them at the gym) keep their backs dead straight and sit-up from the hips. This I believe is bad for your back and not very effective for building stomach muscle.

i may be talking nonsence, so feel free to correct me, but i think many fitness professionals advocate crunches rather than sit-ups to guard against this problem.

[Robinf]

Doing sit ups with your back straight is difficult and serves a purpose, I'm sure, but probably not the purpose those folks think. I did those for a time to help me develop lower back stabalization. But that's me.

There's nothing "wrong" with using your hipflexors in developing abs. But, it's like stabalizing your elbow on your knee when doing curls--to get a little more emphasis on the muscle you want to develop. Hip flexors are generally worked a lot anyway that they don't need the extra attention.

Just remember, please stretch your hipflexors! This is one of the most common tightnesses in humanity, and it causes all sorts of build-up problems ("build-up" for the lack of brain power to remember the proper term--where's my coffee!).

Robin

[Ford Prefect]

I don't think it is necessary to remove the hip flexors from abdominal movements either. I think the point that people are trying to get across is that a lot of people exercising their "abs" are really performing movements that primarily target their hip flexors and minimally target their abs.

[Gav]

If you're targeting anything in life (a muscle group, the hot chick at the end of the bar, Saddam Hussein) it makes sense to get everything else out of the way so your efforts are maximized towards your goal. That doesn't mean that you HAVE to get the hip flexors out of it. Unless you're trying to get your abs 'caught up' to the rest of your body, I wouldn't bother. As was mentioned before, your hip flexors can always benefit from situps.

If you can do 200 situps and your hip flexors are doing half of the actual work and your abs the other half, that's great. Half of 200 is still a workout. But if you removed your hip flexors from the equation and left all the work to the abs, they would get a more intense workout

It's not necessary, it would just move your ab training along faster.

Gav :D

[Kempo Guy]

I'd like to add that working too much on your hipflexors by doing 'situps' that activate the hipflexors can create postural problems (lordosis). Like people need to have anymore postural problems than they already have... :D

KG

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Gav
If you're targeting anything in life (a muscle group, the hot chick at the end of the bar, Saddam Hussein) it makes sense to get everything else out of the way so your efforts are maximized towards your goal.

Hi Gav, Welcome to KFO. Actually, though, there are many times in weight lifting when it's better NOT to isolate a muscle. It depends on what someone's goals are.

IronFist

[Serpent]

We interrupt this thread for a request from the top:

Hey, can you guys check out the sticky Progress thread at the top and give Robinf some shoulder advice? Cheers.

Thank you.

We now return you to your scheduled programming.

I have an on-topic question.

What is better for the abs/flexors workout? Sit ups or hanging leg raises? What's the pros and cons of each there?

[harry_the_monk]

I think the question Serpent is asking is a little like what's better supinated biceps curls or hammer curls.

When working the abdominals the upper fibres tend to be recruited more when your shoulders travel towards the hips the lower fibres tend to be recruited more when the hips travel towards the shoulders.

Hanging leg raises have been seen as being a little contravercial due to the pulling of the hip-flexers on the lower vertibrae during the exercise. (A lot of people tend not to perform the exercise correctly anyway.) Hanging leg raises in my opinion use more hipflexor and lower ab fibres with the upper fibres tending to stabalise more than contract. They are, when done properly(yet again IMO), quite effective at toning and strengthening the fibres.

Situps have so many variations of what one person conciders a situp to anothers that I wouldn't want to comment on effectiveness or properties of it until I saw someone perform them.

Om mani peme hung.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by harry_the_monk

When working the abdominals the upper fibres tend to be recruited more when your shoulders travel towards the hips the lower fibres tend to be recruited more when the hips travel towards the shoulders.

:rolleyes:

We need to make my "upper abs/lower abs" thread sticky again.

harry_the_monk, when the abs work, the entire muscle is working or none of the muscle is working. You can't target specific regions of it.

IronFist

[Scott R. Brown]

The FAD of eliminating the hip flexors during ab training originated in bodybuilding circles. The purpose of bodybuilding is to develop each area of the the musulature to its fullest size; function is not an issue.

Unfortunatlely, many people get their weight training information from bodybuilidng magazines and believe the training programs designed for bodybuilding are beneficial in enhancing athletic performance. Training for athletic function is not the same as training for bodybuilding. The human body funcitons as a unit and the abs never functions separate from the hip flexors in athletic activities.

It is best to train the body as unit using compound or multi-joint exercises and avoid over emphasis on isolation exercises. Train according to your athletic purposes and goals, not bodybuilding goals

Isolation of muscle groups is not necessarily something to be completely avoided. There are times when it can be of benefit, however it should be an adjunct to your training and not a focus.

[Royal Dragon]

On the "Upper/Lower" abbs issue, I'll say it again, Upper abbs are Layman's term for abbs, and LOWER abbs are Laymans terms for hip flexors.

With that said, you can't work only one end of the Abdominal muscles. When you tighten one end, the other also tightens the same amount. It's a single head muscle, there is no way to seperate sections of it.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
On the "Upper/Lower" abbs issue, I'll say it again, Upper abbs are Layman's term for abbs, and LOWER abbs are Laymans terms for hip flexors.

Hmm, I've never heard anyone refer to it like that. All the people I've heard say it are talking about the top of their abs with upper abs, and the bottom with lower. No one seems to know what hip flexors are.

Maybe you're right, though. I dunno.

IronFist

[Scott R. Brown]

The rectus abdominus muscle originates at the pubis bone and inserts into cartilages of the 5th, 6th, and 7th ribs. The function of the rectus abdominus muscle is to flex the torso, i.e. draw the torso (shoulders) towards the pelvis.

The hip flexors are actually a number of muscles that originate at various portions of the pelvis and insert into the femur (thigh) bone. The purpose of the hip flexors is to flex and rotate the thigh.

An example of an exercise that activates the hip flexors is the hanging leg raise with straight legs. The action of lifting the thigh to parallel activates the hip flexor group. Once the thighs are parallel to the floor and the pelvis begins to curl upward the lower portion of the rectus abdominus is activated.

An example of an exercise that primarily activates the upper portion of the rectus abdominus is the crunch. Most people with even a cursory knowledge of fitness training are aware of this popular exercise.

1) Lie on the floor and place your feet or calves on a chair. This flattens the lower back and inactivates the hip flexor group.
2) Place one hand one top of the other and point the finger tips towards the ceiling.
3) Slowly curl the torso upward reaching your fingers towards the ceiling.
4) Hold this position for 2-10 seconds as desired.
5) Return to the starting position and repeat for the desired number of repetitions.

Any individual that has performed this exercise correctly will recognize that the upper abs are primarily activated. It is the upper abs that will be sore the next day, when they are exercised with maximum effort and not the lower abs.

An example of an exercise the primarily activates the lower portion of the rectus abdominus is the reverse crunch.

1) Lie on the floor and with your hands grab of a hold of a fixed object above your head.
2) Raise your legs perpendicular to your torso; the soles of your feet towards the ceiling. Your legs may be straight or slightly bent. This position inactivates the hip flexor group.
3) Slowly curl your pelvis upward reaching towards the ceiling with your feet.
4) Hold this position for 2-10 seconds as desired.
5) Return to the starting position and repeat for the desired number of repetitions.

This exercise may also be performed with the knees bent; however with straightened legs the effort required to perform a repetition is greater.

Any individual that has performed this exercise will recognize that the lower abs are primarily activated. It is the lower abs that will be sore the next day, when they are exercised with maximum effort and not the upper abs.

To activate the entire rectus abdominus perform both of these exercises at the same time.

1) Lie on the floor with your hands and feet reaching towards the ceiling.
2) Curl your torso towards the ceiling while simultaneously curling your pelvis towards the ceiling crunching your abs from both directions at the same time.
3) Hold this position for 2-10 seconds as desired.
4) Return to the starting position and repeat for the desired number of repetitions.

The simple rule of thumb is:

1) To primarily activate the upper abs, fix the pelvis and flex the torso towards the pelvis.
2) To primarily activate the lower abs, fix the shoulders and tilt the pelvis towards the torso.

[Serpent]

I can't wait till Ironfist gets hold of that post!

:D

[rubthebuddha]

i think i read on another thread that ironfist has recurring nightmares about being attacked by zombie lower abs. :(

[harry_the_monk]

If you look carefully I didn't differentiate between upper and lower ABS, but different FIBRES of the rectus abdominus.

I quite agree there are no upper/lower abdominus as there are no upper/lower pectoralis(although there is minor and major before you try to hit me with that one.). :D

The thing is that if you do partials of any exercise you build the muscles through that partial range of movement. (This is why it is advised to do squats down to 90 degs.[further if you don't care about damaging your knees] rather than moving a minimal amount with the weight.)
How you can recruit all the fibres of the rectus abdominus to contract at the same time in a hanging leg raise would cause you to create your own version of the exercise which I didn't think was being discussed here.
(remember that the muscles do recruit all or nothing principle but this is only relative to the motor neuron which is controlling those fibres. If the motor neuron 'in charge' is not needed, it tends not to be recruited. The rectus abdominus has more than one motor neuron.)

Also when we talk about the exercises working I thought we were taking it for granted that the muscles we class as 'working' are those which are the prime movers not necessarily those which are used in the fixation of a movement.

You will notice that I didn't choose to comment on the sit-ups as you can perform those using all the fibres of the abdominus or purely as was stated by scott r. brown the upper fibres when you do crunches(which some people call sit-ups.)

I find IMHO that performing 'curl ups' on a swiss ball tend to recruit the fibres more, as you can take the exercise backwards recruiting fibres for contraction which it would not be possible to do on the floor. Yet again though, as the feet are normally planted on the floor the lower fibres tend not to be contracting as they tend to be aiding more in fixation of the torso.

I will state once again(in case I have come across wrong again.) that I know that there is only the rectus abdominus, internal/external obliques and transverse abdominal muscle groups but do remember that these muscles are in fact groups of muscle fibres being controlled by motor neurons that work on an all or nothing contraction principle. There are many of these motor units within the abdominal area.

I apologise if I may have come across in the wrong way and I never meant to upset anyone with what may be percieved as wrong information. I will gladly answer more questions if it seems I have got it wrong again. If I have misunderstood this thread in any way, I look forward for someone to explain it if that is the case.

[Serpent]

So, let me get this straight.

You agree that there is only one ab muscle and if you engage it at all then it's all engaged.

However, it is possible to recruit more fibres at the upper or lower end of that single muscle, depending on the exercise that you do?

So, while there is only one muscle, not actually upper and lower abs as seperate muscles, you can, in fact, activate more the upper or lower portion of that single muscle? I thought this was the impossible thing to do?

Ooooh, my brain hurts!

[harry_the_monk]

You have to differentiate between all the muscle fibres within a muscle group contracting to their max at once and certain areas of the main muscle that these fibres are part of contracting independantly.
( I don't want to bore everyone, but....):)

Muscles are made of many muscle fibres. As I mentioned earlier certain groups of fibres are controlled by a motor neuron. This motor neuron gives the message to all the fibres it is in charge of to contract. This is done on a principle known as all or nothing. That is to say that the fibres it is controlling will all contract maximally or not at all. There is no way around that unfortunately.

To give an example if you do a partial sit-up (or curl up), can hold it, then can contract the abdominus rectus further to complete the movement, you have already done an experiment in recruiting different fibres from within the rectus abdominus. Had there only been one motor neuron controlling the whole are of the rectus abdominus as soon as the message was sent to contract the abs you would have no choice but to do a full curl up.

You can also start looking into it much deeper when you start to concider the antagonistic muscles working, and sometimes to an extent the fixators. This is to say in a curl up that the erector spinae muscles(antogonists) need to relax to a certain degree, but the other abdominal muscles (obliques, transverse.) will be helping to fixate also. This means that there are muscle fibres working within these muscles as well. Normally a muscle always has some active and some relaxed muscle fibres.

In the context of an exercise and which muscles it uses however, you normally refer to the ones which contract. In this case the rectus abdominus, which we already know has many motor neurons controlling many fibres.

*Please note I just self edited this down before posting as it became more of an a+p paper than a quick response. It is unlike me to get into this into so much depth, I could go further, but think it would bore you all. If you really are that interested in finding out about this please ask, or do some research*

Yet again if I have misunderstood the concept of muscle recruitment please explain to me how it works.

Peace

[Serpent]

Thanks for the response, not boring at all.

IronFist, how do you respond to that? (Or any of the other muscle gurus here!)

[Former castleva]

OK,I did not read the replies but for a short answer:
Many ppl train their stomach the wrong way.
If you use your hips and back as many do,you will encounter little development but you may encounter problems with your back or neck.