Sun Toi Kwoon Altar

[5thBrother]

Hello.

I am interested in the Sun Toi kung fu alter..

does ur school have one?

what does it consist of?

what ceremonies / acts do u perform to it when u train?

do all students place incense before start of trainin?

what procedure do u follow?

any pictures would be interesting too?


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also any ging mo kune people.. now that master malcolm sue changed from to form his style whose/what picture is placed in honour? just curios. is it still Master Lau Soei?

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:)

thanks

actaully also what cultural aspects do u keep in your school/system old traditions and that kind of thing. interesting.

5thBro

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Yes we have one...Kwan Gong, Incense urn, fruit, cups, weapons and of course the sayings. We use it to pay respect and honor all the masters who have handed the art down so we have it today.

GHD

[GeneChing]

...in another magazine though :eek: IKF SEP 92.

[5thBrother]

thanks.. would u or someone with it care to scan and post that article?

thanks :)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Yes, that was a great article Gene.

GHD

[GeneChing]

I figured it was the Confucian thing to do - start my martial publishing with the ancestral altar and move out from there. Seems to have worked. :cool:

[ngokfei]

5th brother

The modern "Kung Fu Altar" is the following.

Center portrait of Kwan Gung (god of war/money/etc)

Below would be pictures/portraits of the schools/styles Ancestors (from the left( most senior) to right (least senior). Also to be on this altar all individuals must be deceased/dead. If there is no picture available people just use the lineage chart (going from most senior on top down to the least senior).

Today with most schools teaching more than one style, it is customary to divide the altar in 1/2 or 1/3, etc. thus making minny altars. Traditionally there would be a separate complete altar for each style.

As for caligraphies.

on top of the entire altar is the school's "pai" or sign. It could either be just the name of the style but more likely it is a poetic saying ex: "Brave Chivalrous Hall" etc.

The side caligraphies are usually a play on words describing the theories or beliefs ofthe style. Each is read top to bottom. But can also be combined from side to side.

the top sign board usually has a bright red ribbon draped over it with a mirrored glass/metal in the midle to drive off evil spirits just like the ones found on the lion dance head. Some of themore traditional schools have feathers or special ceremonial placards on each of the corners. There are special means for the actual angle of placement for these feathers. Outward, Inward or just straight up.

As for the place settings. If there is room there should be an urn, cup and sticks for each ancestor. If there isn't room a central urn with six cups are typically seen used. Various foods and fruits and offered up in the more traditional schools but that makes it very religous which in todays world tends to drive modern students away.

Below the altar are two smaller altars. One to the earth god and the other to the money fairy. Each require specific requirements and maintenance just likethe main altar.

It is usuall to place the responsiblity for maintenance of the schools altar with the most senior disciiple. Only disiciples are usually allowed to burn incense and make offereings. This is usually after the student has done the "bai Si" ceremony.

hope this helps.

ps: don't burn white candles unless you have a new addition to the altar (recent death). This ritual has very specific requirments as well.

later:D

[ngokfei]

sorry made an error.

the ancestor pictures should be from right to left, just like readingthe sign board.

Also you can use a statue of Kwan Gung instead of a Portrait. More expensive but just as good.

later

[5thBrother]

thank you

very informative

5thbro :)


ps. is there any significance or meaning in the number of incense sticks used?

thanks

[Serpent]

Gene, is there anywhere online that we can find a copy of that article?

[GeneChing]

Since altars are fairly personal, you'll find a lot of variation in specific forms, yet like so many things Chinese, simliarities in the underlying concepts and general structures. For instance, most Shaolin Buddhist altars don't usually venerate Lord Kwan (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/95-009.html) but use Tamo (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/95sx001.html) , Kwan Yin, Jinnaluo Wang or Buddha. Some Taoist altars might focus on Zhang San Feng, Zhong Wu or Zhang Daoling (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/95114.html) .

In a related topic, in our issue in production (JUL AUG 2003) we go into an original Hung Men Tribunal Hall and decode a lot of the symbolism. Hung Men venerate Lord Kwan and are avid fans of the Three Kingdoms epic. Plus there's the whole Ming underground symbolism. It had a tremendous influence on the altars we see in the U.S.A., since many of the early pioneers had some Hung Men influence and this has perpetuated into the next generation. The new wave of mainland masters generally don't set up altars - probably a post-CR thing - except the Shaolin monks of course, and their altars are more Buddhist.

Hung Men interpret the use of three as heaven, earth and man. This is a pretty common interpretation, although you'll see some variation in it. So they do three sticks of incense, three bows, and often train patterns of three, etc.

As for my old article, I don't think it's online, but poke around. If you find it, let me know.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

I still have that issue of IKF with your article...Gene, if you want I can scan it at work (PDF only is available), and e mail it to you. Since you are the author, all requests for it would have to be sent to you.

Interesting on the Hung Mun...we also do this in threes in our Kwoon (southern Sil Lum Black Tiger - Hak Fu Pai). I would tend to think that most hard core southern systems would follow this, as most were associated with anti-ching activities.

GHD

[Serpent]

GHD, that's a very generous offer.

Gene, take him up on it and send me a copy!

;)

[5thBrother]

i also request that you consider letting them be scanned. and i would like get a copy if u do please.

thank you

5th Bro

[GeneChing]

...it's sort of a sticky situation since it's an IKF article. Given my position with Kung Fu Qigong, it's a conflict of interest for me to give out reprints of that article. This is sort of like when John Fogerty got sued by the record companies for sounding too much like CCR. Anyway, my hands are tied. I don't really have the rights either way. But if GHD were to take the matter into his own hands, theirs nothing I could do.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

So then I get sued..Gene your one smart guy...but then my mama also raised a smart guy :D. Er, in my hands...no thanks Gene...your still on the hook...sort of! :p :eek:

Hey Gene...how about rewriting the article...after all you can not plagerize yourself :D or write another for the e zine or hard copy of KQ.

GHD

[GeneChing]

Sure you can plagerize yourself. I do it all the time. :p Seriously, I make an effort not to repeat myself in my published works for the most part. I might have a theme that I work, something that charts the progess of my research, but I really try to avoid rewrites. It's sort of a been there, done that, philosophy, coupled with way too much academic training for popular prose. I suppose some might say it's a way to build up my readership too. This way any following that I might have has to stay current with whatever I'm writing. But in truth, it's just that I don't have time to go back. I can only press forward.

As for reprinting any article, I really doubt that IKF would track you down and sue you if you knocked off a few copies and ciruclated them amongst friends. We certainly wouldn't do that. In fact, we'd be honored that you went to the trouble. Fortunately most of our stuff is still available as back issues. (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/magazines.html) And if you're regretting not getting my really old stuff - you better stock up on what's still available now. ;)

[5thBrother]

hi.

how about (if gene does not object of course)

if pm me your email address.. i will give u mine and u could please email me a scan of the article and i will post it on an anynmous webpage :D for those interested.

or else if we email u could u send us a copy?

i dont know about a america .. but here u can photocopy some percentage (i forget the number..) of a book or magazine for "research" purposes...

so i dun think u would get sued... unless u bulk copy and sell... but an anynmous website... with the scan ftp'd to it from one of 80 computers in a uni lab :P ....

so if gene (the author) of it doesnt object... how about something like that...

yes i really wanna see that article hey :p

thanks

[ngokfei]

well since IKF is out of business, I'll take the risk LOL

oops this is the discipleship one.

On Discipleship

by Gene Ching

Within Chinese culture, any traditional skill may be passed down from master to disciple, whether it be martial arts, scholarly arts, painting, cooking, even the art of being a barber or an executioner. Becoming a disciple forges a unique bond between you and the long line of ancestors who forged your tradition before you. It is a very special relationship between master and disciple, full of ritual and meaning. You become family. However, like so aspects of Chinese culture, it is woefully misunderstood by outsiders.

Traditionally, Chinese disciplines do not have a "black" belt system of hierarchy. The belt (or dan) tradition comes primarily from Japan. Like the Chinese system, dan traditions also extends beyond martial arts to other disciplines like tea ceremony or the game of Go. In contrast, the Chinese system is more familial, than militaristic. The term we use for master, Sifu, also implies "father". In the same fashion, other titles translate literally into "elder brother", "younger sister", "uncle", and so on. This system is not exclusive to martial arts. These same terms might be used in any community, from fellow workers in the same company to organized crime triads. It is important to note that a term like "big brother" (Sihing in Cantonese) can have two meanings. It could mean either a member who joined the community before you or a member who is physically older than you. This distinction depends upon the preference of the Sifu.

Chinese people hold teachers in very high regard. A Chinese student will always hold a special loyalty for any previous teacher, even if they only studied with them once. Accordingly, there are some particular observances of respect unique to the pedagogical context. To begin, every student submits unquestionably to their teacher. They must be willing to "empty their cup" of any previous misconceptions and accept the new teachings no matter how disruptive they may be to their personal world view. This is just one reason why it is important to begin with a good teacher. Submission is often represented symbolically by the simple ceremony of "bowing to the teacher". Almost every student begins with this basic teacher-student relationship, the "general public" class. These students are called Moon Sang or "in the door". In the martial arts, most teachers have many students, especially now in modern times. Over 3 decades, Sifu Wing Lam has taught thousands of students. All of those students would be "in the door".

[ngokfei]

part 2

In the old days, a new student would have their acceptance into a school acknowledged through a simple ceremony before the school's martial altar. Known as a "Sun Toi", a martial altar is mandatory for any traditional school. Without it, the school fails to honor its lineage and has no right to claim any heritage. The Sun Toi is more like a memorial than a religious object. It honors all of the ancestors who originally created the art. When we give offerings at this altar, we acknowledge the sacrifice of those who have gone before us. Typical offerings are incense, candles, food, and paper money. Food and paper money give the dead some materials in the afterlife, much like leaving favorite toy at the grave of a child. Incense and candles are believed to send a signal to the heavens in hopes that they heed and bless our practice. The rising smoke, pleasing fragrance and fire arouses whoever is enshrined in the altar and brings their spirit into attendance.

The acceptance ceremony for new students consists of a small offering the school altar of food or incense. The new student would bow three times to the Sifu, then give some lucky money in a red envelope, known as Lai See. Following that, the new student would acknowledge all of the elder students, with an exchange of names, a salute, or perhaps a hand shake and the ceremony was complete. Some food might be shared, then the class would begin. Formally, these students are called Yup Moon Dai Gee (in door, skill "son").

Discipleship is a more intimate relationship, akin to marriage. Two people make bonding vows that will unite them into family forever. Unlike marriage, a Sifu can have many disciples. When a Sifu has hundreds of disciples (and some grand masters have thousands) it is a demonstration of pure political power. Generally, disciples have only one master. Practically speaking, it is difficult to honor all of the tremendous obligations that comes with discipleship for more than one Sifu. Furthermore, in days of old, a Sifu would not want to reveal his back room secrets to a disciple of another Sifu. However in the last century, many people have become disciples of multiple masters.

When the student is satisfied with the teacher's skill and character, they may decide to make a deeper commitment and become a disciple. Formally called Yup Sut Dai Gee (in the back room, skill "son"), this term originates from the architecture of old Kung Fu schools. In old schools, the teacher would commonly teach all of the "in the door" students together in a big hall or courtyard. More intimate instruction for disciples would take place in a private back room. Here, Yup Sut Dai Gee receive special tutelage material from their Sifu, where finer points would be clarified and "secrets" would be revealed. The Yup Sut Dai Gee would represent the Sifu in the public eye, so they were often taught some secret skills. It would be these students that would carry on the school after the Sifu was gone, so they must commit to learning all of the knowledge their Sifu has to offer.

It may surprise you to find that a Sifu does not even have to know the student before accepting him or her as a disciple. Sometimes an intermediary can speak for someone the master does not even know. Just like in arranged marriage, an "arranged" discipleship is not uncommon in the East. Such an arrangement may have political overtones, such as alliance between two factions, or it may simply be a good match in the eyes of an industrious intermediary. Many great masters were made disciples because they were given to their Sifu as orphans. This assured that the Sifu would care for the orphan like their own child. While many westerners reject the idea of arranged marriage, many easterners frown equally on the western practice serial marriage (divorcing and remarrying several times). Not surprisingly, many masters are reluctant to take Western disciples because of a perceived lack of the cultural foundation to adhere to such a commitment. Serial discipleship just does not work.

Before you can become a disciple, you must earn the confidence of someone very close to your Sifu, such as a personal friend, relative or classmate, to act as your intermediary. This intermediary will stake their reputation on you by agreeing to represent you. They must believe that you have a good heart, a strong aptitude for learning and will be able to represent and promote the art for future generations. You must trust them with to speak for you because it is impolite to ask your master directly. A fundamental rule of all Chinese etiquette is that you must provide an "out" or a graceful was to refuse. By going through an intermediary, neither you, nor your master, are confronted with the awkwardness of a rejection. This is a typical "face-saving" convention that is so pervasive in Chinese culture. Such conventions are absolutely necessary and violation of the unspoken rules of etiquette invites tremendous disaster. Known as a Yun Jun Yut or "leading, bringing you in", your intermediary must be willing to guarantee your good character before your Sifu.

After your Sifu accepts your request for discipleship, an auspicious date must be chosen for the new disciple's initiation, based upon Chinese astrology. Invitations are sent out to all of your master's martial relatives and previous disciples to witness the initiation. The ceremony may be held at the school, but more often, it will be held in a high class banquet hall. If held at a hall, a special portable Sun Toi must be prepared. On that day, a master of ceremonies is appointed to oversee the initiation. The Sun Toi is served with incense for your martial ancestors, along with their favorite food or pastry. First, the Sifu bows thrice before the Sun Toi. Second, any blood relatives of these ancestors in attendance will bow. Next, the grandmaster of the system (if in attendance) will bow. Then, a special offering called a Bai Tip or "bowing card" is presented. This is a sheet of red paper that declares the union between master and disciple. It will bear date of the initiation, the name of your master, and your name and birth date. It may also bear the name of your intermediary. Additionally, this card will bear a special set of vows for you. Common rules are "respect your Sifu", "promote the art", "defend the weak", or "be polite". The exact vows are unique to each Sifu.

As the initiate, you must bow three times to the master, then give a Lai See and pour tea for your master. The bows are symbolic of your complete submission to the teacher and an expression your loyalty. The giving of Lai See represents your commitment to support your master financially for the rest of your lives. Offering tea means that you will help your master physically, and empower your master with your own personal efforts. Then you must then bow before the Sun Toi to the ancestors and then to all of your master's other disciples who are now your elder brothers and sisters. Your master will present the you with a gift, then you must will thank all of your classmates and your intermediary with a salute or handshake. Of course, a big banquet follows for all in attendance. More gifts and offerings may be exchanged. Later, those disciples and significant people who were not in attendance should be honored with a gift from the event to be sent to them later. You, as the disciple, are responsible for all of the arrangements and all of the bills of the ceremony.

There is vast variation in initiation rituals, depending upon individual the master and the school. For example, in some dialects of Chinese the number "9" sounds phonetically similar to the word for "longevity" so the Lai See is commonly $999. However, at Shaolin Temple, the Lai See is either $888 or $1111 due to the symbolism of those numbers to Buddhism. Furthermore, a laymen disciple of Shaolin Temple takes very specific Buddhist vows beyond disciple vows because it is a Buddhist Monastery. If you are serious about asking your master to be a disciple, your intermediary must find out exactly what your specific customs might be.

[David Jamieson]

This is some great necrothreading Eric!

8 years dead and raised from the dead!

[mig]

so who are the dieties in the altar? If I remember there is often. guangong with other gods?

[ngokfei]

the image of the 3 individuals? Porbably Kwan gung andhis adopted son and attendent (the guy holding the kwan dao).

alot of people confuse them with Kwan Gung's blood brothers Lau Bei and Jeung Fei from the 3 kingdoms novel. Lau Bei was the king so it can't be them is if Kwan Gung is sitting.

One major error I see is the placement of dieties statues below Ancestors Photos. A big no no. The statues have to be placed above the photos, etc.


I'd strongly recommend not dabbling with the Sun Toi/Shen Tui unless you know what your getting into - religous field. If you burn incense then its a religions ceremony plain and simple.

[mig]

Good point Eric. Now who's the third deity in the altars? Is it Zhang fei? I confirm that the other one is his adoptive son. Thanks a bunch.

[David Jamieson]

I don't have one.

My sifu(s) had one.

It is a pseudo-religious item, so overtly religious folk are gonna take issue with it and apologists are going to apply secular ideas to it.

Generally speaking it houses Gwan Gung who is the house god for kung fu schools, restaurants, banks, police stations and military offices among others.

[5thBrother]

Thanks for the info Ngokfei :)

[yeshe]

Good point Eric. Now who's the third deity in the altars? Is it Zhang fei? I confirm that the other one is his adoptive son. Thanks a bunch.

It is Zhang Fei's son holding the changdao and the other is Guan Yu's godson.
btw what is his name?and what is he holding?the royal seal maybe?

In China, all policeman worship Guan Yu, coz he is the name of righteous, and drive out all evil. All gangsters worship Guan Yu, coz he is the name of brotherhood, and drive out all betrayal. All businessmen worship Guan Yu, coz he is the name of honesty, and drive out all fraud.(from a utube post,it sez it all)

I am a big 3 kingdoms fan.

[ngokfei]

a link for info on altars etc.

http://www.asia.si.edu/exhibitions/online/teen/altar.htm

[mig]

It is Zhang Fei's son holding the changdao and the other is Guan Yu's godson.
btw what is his name?and what is he holding?the royal seal maybe?

In China, all policeman worship Guan Yu, coz he is the name of righteous, and drive out all evil. All gangsters worship Guan Yu, coz he is the name of brotherhood, and drive out all betrayal. All businessmen worship Guan Yu, coz he is the name of honesty, and drive out all fraud.(from a utube post,it sez it all)

I am a big 3 kingdoms fan.

I was not sure if Zhang fei was in the picture. I only see Guangong, Guang ping and Zhang fei however everywhere else I read they talk always about Guanggong, Liubei and Zhangfei. In those altars I see some carry the guangdao only.

[ngokfei]

the basic Image

Guān Yǔ 關羽 or Guan Gong (關公) in the Center

Guan Ping 關平 on the left (probably holding the Generals Official Seal)

Zhou Cang 周倉 on the right (the general's Weapon bearer/holder)
(is sometimes believe to be Liao Hua 廖化)

Guan Yu and Guan Ping were captured and killed. Zhou Cang is said to have committd suicide when he heard this. Liao Hua was captured with Guan Yu & Guang Ping but was able to fake his death and escape)

[mooyingmantis]

Here is a simple paper that I put together for my students to explain how we view the shen tai/sun toi in our school:

神 檯
shén tái/san toi
Spirit Table

Placement of the Altar
The altar should be placed in such a way that it can be easily seen when entering the training hall and preferably in the Northwest (heaven) or Northeast (wisdom and spirituality)corner of the room. Students should bow toward the altar when entering the training area.

The Altar Proper
Altars vary greatly from school to school and can be a small temple like structure or a simple table reserved only for use as an altar. The altar serves as a memorial to the art and those who have transmitted the art from the founder to the present day.

Items Associated with the Altar

The Couplets
Framing the altar from above and both sides are three signboards. The top signboard is hung horizontally and bears the name of the school or style. Often this is written with four Chinese characters. On each side of the altar a signboard or scroll is hung vertically that bears the keyword principles of the style, motto of the style, or a poem. Each vertical signboard should have an equal number of Chinese characters.

Mirror
A large red ribbon with an attached mirror is often draped across the top front of the altar to scare away evil spirits. Alternately, a mirror can be hung inside the shrine itself.

General Guan Yu
Within the altar is a statue of the famous general, Guan Yu, who served during the Eastern Han dynasty. He is revered as the patron saint or diety of Chinese martial arts.

Genealogical Momentos
Some schools place a genealogy chart of their martial lineage within the altar. Others place photos of dead masters of their lineage. A famous saying of a past master is also not uncommon within the altar.

Three Incense Sticks placed in a Bowl of Rice
Three Joss (incense sticks) are lit and placed vertically in a bowl of rice as a tribute to either Guan Yu or a martial ancestor. If more than one ancestor is honored, each ancestor should be assigned three joss sticks which are placed in the bowl of rice. The number three symbolizes the ideas of heaven, earth and man.

Candles
Real candles or electric candles with red bulbs are used to awaken the deities enshrined within the altar.

Offerings
Schools that honor their ancestors through ancestor worship will place offerings of food and drink in or near the altar on a daily basis.

Peac o c k Feathers
Peac o c k feathers invite good luck, but when attached to the shen tai serve as a sign that the school is open to fighting challenges from outsiders.

At the beginning of each class we bow toward the altar and recite our oaths.

Here is a picture of our shen tai: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150281997279481&set=a.10150281997194481.345816.750549480&type=1&theater

[ngokfei]

combining a Diety Altar with a Ancestor Altar is a very recent development. Probably due to the limitations of space. Classically their are no less then 5 shrines/altars within a space (house, studio, etc)

One major rule that I see being violated is having the Diety Statue/image either below or on the same level with those of Ancestors. A big no no.

along the same lines as having Jesus next to Uncle Bob.

Another thing is the burning of incense excessively especialy during training, which actually can be pretty toxic if breathed in within such a confined space.


A little bit of knowledge can be dangerous and embarassing so Strongly recommend either confirming with your teacher or seeking outside information from religous organizations that can instruct you in the proper ceremonies, placement, etc.

There is a big difference from following a custom to practicing a religion.

[mooyingmantis]

According to Feng Sui principles, altars should be placed in the Northwest (symbol of heaven) or Northeast (symbol of wisdom and spirituality) corner of the main room.

[ngokfei]

not always especially when pertaining to certain dieties.

example.

kwan Gung/Kwan Yu is required to have their back to the east as he died facing the east.

and as regards to Fenshui its very difficult and complex with some aspects requiring readjustment on a seasonal and sometimes daily basis.

[mig]

[QUOTE=ngokfei;1150055]not always especially when pertaining to certain dieties.

example.

kwan Gung/Kwan Yu is required to have their back to the east as he died facing the east.

Are we talking about these dieities?

If so why them and what they represent in the altar, purpose or belief?

Thanks,

[GeneChing]

We ran a series on Feng Shui and altar placement in 2000: Feng Shui for Kungfu Schools By Wilson Sun. It was a four part series that only appears in print so if you want to read it, pick up the back issues.

Part 1: 2000 March (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=111)
Part 2: 2000 April (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=113)
Part 3: 2000 May (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=115)
Part 4: 2000 June (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=117)

[ngokfei]

a new site in development on the "Kung Fu Altar"

www.kungfualtar.20m.com

[jo]

Does any of this make your hands any better?

-jo

[mooyingmantis]

Does any of this make your hands any better?

-jo

Practicing in this type of environment with the proper deities empowering you is the only way to develop the chi blast skill! It worked for me!

[David Jamieson]

Does any of this make your hands any better?

-jo

Ha!

No...no it doesn't. It's a cultural trapping and doesn't really do anything for your training or prowess. :)

[ngokfei]

Not unless your a religous devotee and practice the rituals etc. will it have a psychological effect on ones views and performance

at www.kungfualtar.20m.com
we want individuals to be knowledgeable on the cultural symbolism and protocol.

I've seen so many good intentions masked with just plain ignorance and it ends up being passed on.

So if individuals are going to have a Sun Toi in their school gym, etc. then they need to be knowledgeable about it.

[ngokfei]

Okay here is an example.

Placement of Images/Statues.

top to Bottom (Heaven - Man - Earth)
1. Diety - ex: Guan Gong
2. Kung Fu Ancestors (Founder 1st)
3. Dei Ju - Ground Shrine


right to left.

1. Diety
2. Ancestors
Dei Ju is still below on the ground.

If on a shelf the Diety should be raised up above the Ancestors.


Ancestors photos/tablets should go from Right to Left starting with the Elder Ancestor.


this is just one of the major things I see done improperly.

This is not to mention Altar Placement in a School or House.

Rule one is Guan gong should be facing the entrance and not the toilet or bedroom.

Rule 2: Altars have specific height requirements but mainly the platform should be above all tables etc.


For more specifics check back often to see the sites development. It will take some time to load the info so Patience. Any comments or suggestions please feel free to e-mail me.

[GeneChing]

Does any of this make your hands any better?
An ancestral altar is about respect. It's a way to show some respect for those that carried the tradition before you, those that have passed down the legacy for generations, and placed them into your hands.

:rolleyes:

[mooyingmantis]

Not unless your a religous devotee and practice the rituals etc. will it have a psychological effect on ones views and performance

at www.kungfualtar.20m.com
we want individuals to be knowledgeable on the cultural symbolism and protocol.

I've seen so many good intentions masked with just plain ignorance and it ends up being passed on.

So if individuals are going to have a Sun Toi in their school gym, etc. then they need to be knowledgeable about it.

Eric,
I appreciate your work on this. Thank you!

[ngokfei]

added a new section to Guan Gong

His martial Arts

Guan Yu's Martial Arts (http://http://kungfualtar.20m.com)

[facaodotigre]

Ngok Fei

Congratulations for your website !!

in page 1 in this thread you said :

"Today with most schools teaching more than one style, it is customary to divide the altar in 1/2 or 1/3, etc. thus making minny altars. Traditionally there would be a separate complete altar for each style"

My question is : if you put differents styles on a same altar, you can divide it and find space for the pictures of differents ancestors but how do you can find space for put together the differents couplets of the styles ?

[ngokfei]

sorry haven't had the time to work on and update that website.

Here is a basic layout that I've been taught and seen used.

[mooyingmantis]

Very nice Eric! Thank you!

[5thBrother]

Thanks for sharing ngokfei and others,
very interetsing and really appreciate it.
( I was the OP in 2003 :P)