CHina nukes Taiwan in preemptive strike against terra [Archive]

Rockwood

03-19-2003, 02:22 PM

"the logic is empty and the argument is just plain dumb"

maybe, but that problem hasn't stopped Bu$h and Halliburton/Raytheon/Lockheed now has it?

The PRC has exactly the same right to blitzkrieg and start a war we do, absolutely none. It's illegal and immoral. It's why we put the Nazi's in a noose after WWII and hopefully the war criminals of this century will face the same justice.

Soddom didn't attack us.

Only a coward would throw the first punch, and that's never been the American way.

What a pathetic farce this administration is. They would've jumped in to stomp Poland instead of fighting Germany. Oh yeah that's right, Bu$h's gradfather ran a bank for the Nazi's, maybe cowardice runs in the family.

Get it yet? These guys are Ivy League bullies with rich daddies. You know the type, so why do you support them?

Frat boys like Bu$h have never been in a fight in their lives. That's why they are so quick to push you out in front, go get 'em!

-Jess O

MonkeySlap Too

03-19-2003, 02:44 PM

Who says America never strikes first? Re-read your history.

I am more likely to beleive our current adminstration than a murderous thug like Saddam Hussein.

The risk inherent in such an action, and some of the individuals involved, make me truly think there is more behind this than has been made public. But not because GB is a whiney rich frat boy. Far from it. Go find JWT - he worked for the guy. This war is happening because of the risks created by governments who sell or supply wmd and knowledge to producr them to terorists.

It became very clear to this administration on 9/11 that you can't wait for them to come to us. They are right in front of us. Remember Sun Tzu - it is better to solve a problem when it is small, rather than when it has had time to grow big.

These problems have had time to grow. Time to correct them BEFORE they get worse.

Oh well, the World Workers Party is financing a riot tonight in SF, (probably in honor of that human rights saint Kim Il Jung), so I gotta let staff go early...b@stards.

Rockwood

03-19-2003, 03:00 PM

"This war is happening because of the risks created by governments who sell or supply wmd and knowledge to producr them to terorists."

Exactly right. And the Kurds paid for it when we sold all those chemical weapons to Soddom in the 80's. But our "defense" contractors made a pretty penny, which is all that really counts.

I don't like Soddom and I don't like WMDs. But a pre-empitive war, a war without end I really don't like.

Once we do it, give me any reason why China shouldn't stomp Taiwan out of existance and call it "anti-terra". Tell me why they wouldn't be any more justified than we are today.

Those protestors are trying to save this country, maybe you should say thanks instead of *****ing. Or better yet, move somewhere where free speech won't bother you so much.

-Jess O

MonkeySlap Too

03-19-2003, 03:09 PM

Free speech doesn't bother me at all. Why does my disagreeing with you suddenly make me an opponent of free speech?

Oh, I almost forgot the liberal mantra "If you disagree with me, you are against free speech." -- Welcome to America Comrade Stalin!

Frankly, we are paying the price for inheriting the French and British 'great power' games of the last two centuries. After this mess is cleaned up, it would be a great time to get our international act back to Jeffersonian standards. (I blame Teddy Roosevelt)

But just because we were wrong about some actions, does not mean we should not be proactive against proponents of mass-terror and the governments that support them.

Even the Russians and the Chinese who were both big terror proponents during the cold war see the need to get out of that business.

That means us too.

But first, it's house cleaning time.

Note, while I am not so stupid to be a "love it or leave it type." Far from it, as I have a libertarian bent, I'd suggest you imagine what it is like living in place like Iraq or the DPRK. Chances are, you'd be one of the first to get shot, because like you, they view reasoned discourse as an attack.

red5angel

03-19-2003, 03:20 PM

"maybe, but that problem hasn't stopped Bu$h and "

you missed it so let me clarify, the problem isn't his, its yours.

" It's illegal and immoral"

By whose laws? By whose standards? Is there something universal I am missing here? Are you sure you aren't Kung Lek?

"Only a coward would throw the first punch, and that's never been the American way"

Only a coward is afraid to throw the first punch.

"They would've jumped in to stomp Poland instead of fighting Germany"

As specululative and irrelevant as many KL comments, should you be signing on under another name KL if you are an administrator here? ;)

"Get it yet? These guys are Ivy League bullies with rich daddies. You know the type, so why do you support them?"

How about:
Get it yet? Saddam is a run of the mill Tyrant with a rich regime. You know the type, so why do you support them?;)

"Frat boys like Bu$h have never been in a fight in their lives. "

I have, and I think they made the right decision.

"Once we do it, give me any reason why China shouldn't stomp Taiwan out of existance and call it "anti-terra". "

I wasn't aware Taiwanese were blowing up shopping malls, paying the families of those who kill chinamen in suicidal attacks, and support terrorism in other parts of the world?

"Those protestors are trying to save this country, maybe you should say thanks instead of *****ing."

those protestors have their heads up their arses, not having all the facts and not understanding the way life is. War is a part of being human, sucks doesn't it? Hate it all you like, protest all you like, won't change a **** thing. they aren't saving ****, just like the protestors did during vietnam they may be doing more damage then good because now they have convinced people like Shirac that disagreeing with America just for the sake of it is ok.
I've got no problem with free speach, haven't seen a legitimate argument not totally laden with emotional crap about how war is bad and all we want is oil. Grow up, open your eyes and take a look around. This war has precedent, in every fukking war that came before it, this is no different, only the technology changes the reasons are always the same.
Hey Kung le- I mean rockwood, do you think we went to save the Kurds the first time around? That the UN united to help a small impoverished and oppressed people? If so we would have done what we are doing now, back then.

old jong

03-19-2003, 03:40 PM

Do I feel the temperature getting highter?

Rockwood

03-19-2003, 03:55 PM

monkey, your comment about communists financing a riot tonight in SF is where I started to wonder about your respect for the Bill of Rights. you can disagree all you want, but the right to gather in public is still ours, for as long as Asskroft lets us. I'm suprised a libertarian like you hasn't noticed this administration burning the constitution.

fyi I'm not a communist. No one under 50 is, so maybe you need to catch up with the times. Nowadays you're supposed to call me a terraist, so they can strip my citizenship and hold me indefinity. Then you won't have to hear all this disturbing free speech.

I agree that American military should stay out of world affairs in general, and only in the direst of emergencies should it burn children alive in a firestorm of death.

The problem is, our administraiton is financed by "defense" corporations that make lots and lots of money off of bombs, planes, and other weapons of mass destruction. See the hypocracy there? Bu$h is paying back his campaign donations, and many innocents will die for it.

I don't have a problem with war, if it is just. This is not a war it's a massacre.

It's not making us safer, it's making more $$$ for the already mega rich.

And RedAngel if you're still here, those protesters against Vietnam ended that war. We killed 2 million people to save them from communism. It disgusts me that you think that was a good idea. Either you are very sick or working for the "defense" industry. Or both like Bu$h.

The Chinese think that maybe Taiwan is going to attack. Boom, nuke 'em. Or Pakistan v. India, or Israel v. Egypt or any number of other countries.

Tell me how that's different from the rape we are commiting in Iraq, against a overpowered, helpless civilian population.

We are setting up a precident for any coutry to attack another for any reason.

This isn't what America stands for.

-Jess O

red5angel

03-19-2003, 04:08 PM

"I agree that American military should stay out of world affairs in general, ."

right, let all the petty dictators and madmen of the world play the way they want to, why worry about it right?

"and only in the direst of emergencies should it burn children alive in a firestorm of death"

Kung Lek, is that you?!

"those protesters against Vietnam ended that war."

No they didn't but it's a nice idea to think all tha hippy love did though isn't it?

"It disgusts me that you think that was a good idea. Either you are very sick or working for the "defense" industry."

I never said Vietnam was a good idea I said going to war with Iraq is a good idea, it doesn't make me sick, just realistic not idealistic.

"The Chinese think that maybe Taiwan is going to attack. Boom, nuke 'em."

I just checked CNN, it appears we have yet to nuke Iraq, but stay tuned ;)

"Tell me how that's different from the rape we are commiting in Iraq, against a overpowered, helpless civilian population."

I didn't realize our goal was to attack the civilian population, I have been living under the misguided belief that we were seeking military goals and the disposal of Saddams Regime?

"We are setting up a precident for any coutry to attack another for any reason."

No, the only precedent I see being set is the one that says if you support terrorist, and more specifically terrorist that threaten the welfare of us and our allies, we will come after you. It's a good policy in my mind. how many kids do you know behaved in school or feared getting caught because of the spankings or paddlings? Of course there is always one or two kids that don't heed the warning and serve as examples for the rest. Thanks for taking this one Saddam.

"This isn't what America stands for."

No america stands for freedom. It stands for the freedom to say what we want, and to dream and to walk these streets and go to work without having to worry that some psycho extremists with differing ideas doesn't blow up my building today. AL Quaeda made the biggest mistake ever when they attacked us, they hurt themselves, they hurt their brothers in arms and they hurt all those places in the world that support terror. I won't live in fear for my life, not like the Israelis do now. I won't live in fear that if I go to the mall I may be caught in the blast. Neither will most of my fellow americans and hopefully others around the world. If we have to be perceived as a bad guy and do the dirty work that others fear to do but has to be done, then so be it. I would rather know we are doing SOMETHING then sitting on our asses and talking about it.

Rockwood

03-19-2003, 04:28 PM

"I have been living under the misguided belief
that we were seeking military goals and the disposal of Saddams Regime"

And you call me the idealist? This is realism? Just like we were "saving" the Vietnamese right?

Bu$h regime foreign policy of attacking anyone anywhere will ensure that both of us live the rest of our lives in fear.

Al-Queida didn't have a good reason for attacking us, that was inexcusable.

But now every Iraqi son that looses his grandmother to a MOAB and his sister to a Daisy cutter and his wife to a crusie missle will have a LEGITIMATE reson to hate you and me.

We will be hated, and worse than that it will be a hatred that is Justified.

Thanks to the coward in the white house, making money off of explosions.

Red if you go to Taiwan you will see that everyday the Mainland Chinese declare that Taiwan is an illegal, terrorist hideout that must be stopped, punished and returned to the fold. The Red Army will be the liberators that save the Taiwanese from themselves by murdering them. Believe me, the news there is very different from here, and the threat is very very real. The only thing keeping the Chinese off are our nuclear submarines circling the island.

"terrorist" is defined differently. To you it's a kid that doesn't want animals to used in inhumane experiments. To the Chinese, a terrorist is a Taiwanese.

Why shouldn't they do what we do and wipe out terra once and for all (trumpets of triumph sound).

You're always saying that we "have to do something" Why does something have to be war? Why does something mean slaughtering civilians?

Men of integrity do the hard, dirty work of negotiation and compromise and finding real solutions. Fighting is last on the list for people who've had to do it. For a coward like Bu$h it's always first.

Bu$h stands to make a lot of $$$ off of this. What's your excuse?

-Jess O

MonkeySlap Too

03-19-2003, 04:42 PM

Again, pointing out who is financing some of the protests is very important. These people are self-avowed communists. They have supported the most vile, genocidal regimes the world has ever seen.

They can say anything they want to. I'll even go talk with them, but when that occurs, they either get mad (always a sign of intellectual prowess) or they run away.

Why don't they stand up for thier beleifs instead of hiding behind the anti-war protests?

In order to have a free exchange of information, and to consider it's value or the intent behind its dissemination, there needs to be a little honesty.

Now, why is pointing out who these punks are inhibiting free speech? Isn't that part of free discourse?

BTW - I have libertarian tendancies. And I do beleive in non-involvement, but I am not at isolationist. No viewpoint can capture the reality of world events, I find political philosophy to be more of a salad bar than a world of absolutes. This is also where I differ from todays so-called 'liberals'.

From my viewpoint I am a liberal. A 17th century libertarian, colored by the reality that modern technology forces the distasteful need for collective action on certain areas of government and policy.

I am a card carrying, very happy citizen who strives for a better world - but not the one the leftists envision, because I'm not much into reeducation camps.

red5angel

03-19-2003, 04:55 PM

"And you call me the idealist? This is realism? Just like we were "saving" the Vietnamese right?"

What does vietnam have anything to do with this war? We aren't "saving the Iraqis either, they allow Saddam to be in power, they just get lucky he is a big enough threat that we are going to go after him. We are in this for us.

"Bu$h regime foreign policy of attacking anyone anywhere will ensure that both of us live the rest of our lives in fear."

Fear of retribution will do funny things to a person.

"But now every Iraqi son that looses his grandmother to a MOAB and his sister to a Daisy cutter and his wife to a crusie missle will have a LEGITIMATE reson to hate you and me."

or those who have lost sons and mothers to an oppressive regime under Saddams rule will have reason to thank us.

"We will be hated, and worse than that it will be a hatred that is Justified. "

You can't please all the people all the time, however once we are done with Saddam the Iraqi people will be allowed to live in a more free society and will be able to enjoy freedoms they have not in the past. I have a hard time thinking that that hatred is justified.

"Red if you go to Taiwan you will see that everyday the Mainland Chinese declare that Taiwan is an illegal, terrorist hideout that must be stopped"

gotta ask yourself why......

"You're always saying that we "have to do something" Why does something have to be war? Why does something mean slaughtering civilians"

It doesn't and for 12 years it wasn't but time is up. As for civivlians you need to get off that. these are the same civilians that have allowed Saddam to stay in power, if they support him then they support everything he is about, if they don't their apathy is no excuse. I am not condoning the senseless slaughter of civilians but get real, they have every chance to get the hell out of the way if they need to, this war has been looming for quite some time now. Know what I would do if war were coming to minnesota or the US? Stay and fight or get the hell out.

"Bu$h stands to make a lot of $$$ off of this. What's your excuse?"

Feedom form fear, freedom from oppresion, the will to show the world that we are not the country with whom to mess. I am all for standing up and showing people that you can't come in here an dbomb away like they do in Israel and expect us to shake it off. Americans don't do that. My excuse is showing supporters of terrorism that we will not tolerate it. No TOLERANCE what so ever.
It's over simplified to think its aboput money and oil. I am tired of the mewing over civilian losses and how horrible war is. Life can be fukking horrible if you want to look at it that way but at every end is a new beginning and my bet is Iraq benefits from this change.

What makes me sick is passivism at its worst. The claim that action is wrong and war i snot an answer, sorry brother I don't buy it and I don't belive you really feel war doesn't accomplish anything, if it didn't where would this world be now after the big one?

Rockwood

03-19-2003, 04:57 PM

"They have supported the most vile, genocidal regimes the world has ever seen."

You mean like Saddam, Osama, Colombia, Nicaragua, etc? No that was us. Not that I like communism, but lets share the blame with the deserving.

"hiding behind the anti-war protests?"

I hope it might cross your mind that the vaaaast majority of people there are average citizens who are anti-war. Is that too hard to understand? Otherwise there's a lot more communists left than I thought!!! :)

"pointing out who these punks are " Look man, these people aren't communists!!! I got the feeling that you were disputing their right to be there, but now that I re-read it you just don't agree with them, the *******s. ok, cool.

I'm a liberal and I too have a number of different beliefs. You'd be suprised how diverse the crowd is.

"I'm not much into reeducation camps." Neither am I, but Asskroft is. He loooooves locking people up. But now, thanks to the regime of terra, he don't need a warrent, he don't need to bring charges and he ain't worried about no jury, just indefinite detention, stripping Americans of their citizenship and total disregard for the constitution.

Just like their foreign policy, might makes right.

If the bill of rights still exists in 2004 you will be thanking those "commie" protestors. They're your last hope.

-Jess O

David Jamieson

03-19-2003, 04:57 PM

r5- no, rockwood is not me and frankly, i find rockwoods views lean a little to the left of mine, but nevertheless they are fairly close.

He can understand a just war, but not the one that Bush is waging and I do think that the point about opening pandoras box is happening is a good one.

anyway, just wanted to clear up the misperception that I am the only one here who is against this war and I don't mind being vocal about it.

I can also fully appreciate the stances of those members who are for the war. But, I respectfully and wholly disagree with those views. that's life eh?

cheers

Fred Sanford

03-19-2003, 05:06 PM

I hope it might cross your mind that the vaaaast majority of people there are average citizens who are anti-war. Is that too hard to understand? Otherwise there's a lot more communists left than I thought

are you trying to say the vast majority of US citizens are anti-war? IF so i'm afraid you are sadly mistaken. Bush still has a fairly high approval rating. ~62% approval as of 3/17/03. this wouldn't be the case if the vast majority of citizens dissapproved of what he was doing.

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

MonkeySlap Too

03-19-2003, 05:06 PM

I never said there weren't regular people out there too. I'm just pointing out who the organizers are.

I have always loathed the occasional support of fascist regimes - but I gaurentee you, as bad as some of the U.S. supported regimes were - their opposite numbers were far, far worse. Khmer Rouge anyone? Cultural Revolution? Stalinist purges?

No thanks.

But - as I am privvy to some things I should not know - the terror threat inside the states is much more profound than you may think, and the new laws in the patriot act have helped prevent some very nasty things from happening.

However, there is concern over the erosion of the bill of rights - but in a world where one person can murder thousands - are we forced to give up a little privacy or freedom in order to protect the individual? Do you think Ben Franklin envisioned a world with nuclear weapons / waste, highly toxic poisons, and other WMD's when he said 'A society that sacrifices freedom for security is not worth preserving.' I doubt it.

Frankly, I'm p!ssed off because I don't have an answer to that question.

Rockwood

03-19-2003, 05:07 PM

red you are funny, first you implied that isolationism was wrong and we need to help the little guys. Now you say we are just in it for us. Make up your mind, are you saying that we should bomb civilians for $$$ or we should do it for the good of humanity?

They're lucky that Saddam is in our sights? Tell it to the MOAB. How lucky would you feel gettin charcoalized to make $$$ for a madman?

So now I suppose the Afganis are thrilled that we saved 'em and the Vietnamese are still in awe of our kindness, etc. Gimme a break. Meanwhile the Taliban is still gunning them down and the commies are torturing the dissidents.

Look, you are in a fantasy world of John Wayne proportions. very intelligent men with lots of money and power are manufacturing this war and putting a very nice face on it. You've got to get your head out of the clouds and look around, Lockheed and Raytheon are making out like bandits!

Idealism can only get you so far, its time to face reality.

Slaughtering people is not going to free them.

"to show the world that we are not the country with whom to mess."

This is the most childish absurdity yet. Should China wipe out Taiwan to show the world they aren't to be messed with? Should a third grader punch the kid with glasses to show the school that hes not to be messed?

I can understand that coming from a snotty, rich little bich like Bu$h, but red you seem a lot smarter than that.

Murder is murder, it cannot be justified by showing the world how tough you are.

-Jess O

Rockwood

03-19-2003, 05:11 PM

'A society that sacrifices freedom for security is not worth preserving.'

I don't have the answer either, and I'm glad that I don't have to be the one that makes that decision.

I pray that the men who do are able to live up to Franklin's legacy.

-Jess O

MonkeySlap Too

03-19-2003, 05:13 PM

This brings to mind my high school. At my school, a street gang arrived for the first time. A few towns over, this was common, but not at my school, even though we were less wealthy.

After about a week of vandalism, watching the retarded kids get shook down, and drug dealing, my Judo team (yea, my school had a judo team. Cool, huh?) took the matter into our own hands. We launched a pro-active campaign to bully the f@ck out of the bullies.

Within a month, there were no 'gangsta' left. They were afraid to show thier colors, cause we'd choke'em out.

Sometimes violence solves problems.

MonkeySlap Too

03-19-2003, 05:15 PM

I don't have the answer either, and I'm glad that I don't have to be the one that makes that decision.
________________________

Ah, common ground at last. Who says these political threads are too polarizing?

Hey Rockwood, you going to the riot in SF? What kind of CMA do you do? Maybe I'll recognize you by fighting style!

Rockwood

03-19-2003, 05:24 PM

Monk-
I'm gonna try and make it out tomorrow, I doubt I'll get to use any kung fu, but maybe some of you rednecks will rush the crowd!!! :)

Just kidding!!!!

It's cool you had a judo team, must have been before title 9 when there was boxing, wrestling, judo, you know actual cool sports.

I think we all agree that violence has it's place, after all we do martial arts!

I think we all agree that martial artists should never use their training in an unethical way. We wouldn't hurt someone that was weaker than us, unless it was totally justified.

There is some question of whether this coming attack on an almost totally unarmed, pathetic little sand pit is ethical or not. I don't think so. When I examine who is making piles and piles of $$$ on it, it seems waaay to convenient.

Some people here think it is justified. So be it.

I don't hate them for it, I'm just sick of the comic book "Axis of Evil Mutant'" childish excuses about terra/good/evil/gimme a break coming out of our "free" press.

Ready and willing to keep on ranting if you all are!

-Jess O

MonkeySlap Too

03-19-2003, 05:45 PM

Don't know title nine. I was told we were the only school East of the Missisipi with a Judo curriculum.

Waidan

03-19-2003, 05:47 PM

I was originally against your standpoint, but your persistant misspellings of "Bu$h", "Asscroft", and "terra" have convinced me that you are indeed correct. All of these alternate spellings speak of deep wisdom and untold political insight.

/sarcasm

Rockwood

03-19-2003, 05:49 PM

lmao!!!!!!

i finally got thru to somebody YEAAHHHHH!!!!!

MonkeySlap Too

03-19-2003, 06:01 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,81450,00.html

This makes a few valid points.

diego

03-19-2003, 06:58 PM

so why are we attacking iraq agian...saddam possibly might sell gangsters wmd right!?.

When are we attacking korea?. whos next?.

will this lead to the worlds other big guns following the us's lead. is india and pakistan going to nuke each other?. will china take back the future tawainian sandpit after watching the us wave its big sticks?.

what do you guys think will happen after bush attacks iraq?.

ohya sharon finally going to get rid of those pesky palestinians?.

ZIM

03-20-2003, 11:49 AM

'A society that sacrifices freedom for security is not worth preserving.' -franklin

"The Constitution supposes what the history of all governments
demonstrates, that the executive is the branch of power most interested in war and most prone to it. It has accordingly with studied care, vested the question of war in the legislature. [If a president is successful in bypassing the Congress] it is evident that the people are cheated out of the best ingredients in the government, the safeguards of peace which is the greatest of their blessings."- Richard M. Nixon

Close enough?
I gotta agree about some of the commies in the woodworks... they're not the majority, no, but I've met a few... one held up Mao as his Idol. :(
--------------------------------

I don't think we in the US will be attacking too many more places. We're running out of cash, come the '04 budget. This is all on 'credit' and we can't even figure in whatever deals we made to get it done. Cold comfort is that it was done, given that troop deployments ran policy rather than the reverse. We'd still have to pay, without result.

China is gonna cash in selling arms to the world- high tech stuff- to even out the obvious advantages the USA has- we showed our cards after all.... I think the Russkies will as well.

To capitalize on this war without spending a lot more, we could wind up doing another cold war scenario- small proxy wars, encouraging other countries to do domestic & regional cleanups. Keep 'em busy!

--------------------
Fox news is not exactly my first choice for fair reporting. Not even 5th.

red5angel

03-20-2003, 12:02 PM

"red you are funny, first you implied that isolationism was wrong and we need to help the little guys. Now you say we are just in it for us. Make up your mind, are you saying that we should bomb civilians for $$$ or we should do it for the good of humanity?"

Make no mistake this attack is about protecting americans, but it is also about protecting the free world from fanatical terrorists. It can work both ways. However while the UN sits on its a$$ and discusses it all, we are out doing something.

"They're lucky that Saddam is in our sights? Tell it to the MOAB. How lucky would you feel gettin charcoalized to make $$$ for a madman?"

Maybe you should do the research on modern american military tactics before making comments like this?

"So now I suppose the Afganis are thrilled that we saved 'em and the Vietnamese are still in awe of our kindness, etc. Gimme a break. Meanwhile the Taliban is still gunning them down and the commies are torturing the dissidents."

You must live in a different world then I. Right here in the area there are a ton of Vietnamese people in america living a free life. I also believe we are stil in Afghanistan rounding up the stragglers?

"Look, you are in a fantasy world of John Wayne proportions. very intelligent men with lots of money and power are manufacturing this war and putting a very nice face on it. You've got to get your head out of the clouds and look around, Lockheed and Raytheon are making out like bandits! "

So now its Lockheed and Raytheon that determine if we go to war or not? Who is living in a dream world? I have never stated I don't doubt there are all sorts of reasons we have chosen to go to war but your fooling yourself if you think there is some copnspiracy out to make money and its the only reason we go to war?

"Idealism can only get you so far, its time to face reality. "

I think you are finally starting ti understand my message ;)

"Slaughtering people is not going to free them."

Destroying the regime that oppresses them does.

"This is the most childish absurdity yet. Should China wipe out Taiwan to show the world they aren't to be messed with? Should a third grader punch the kid with glasses to show the school that hes not to be messed?"

Is taiwan threatening to attack China with WMD? Are they supporting terrorsit who are bombing mainland china? Is that kid with glasses threatening to punch the third grader?

"Murder is murder, it cannot be justified by showing the world how tough you are."

Don't get me started on morality but weren't you going on and on about forcing our western morality on others? I served in a country of a few million somalis that don't put the same price on life that you do. Does that make them wrong then? Interesting accusation murder. You and Kung Lek need to go look at what WAR is all about and stop spouting off about killing millions of Iraqi civilians and biased crap like that. I can tell you something, I am not fooling myself into thinking no civilians will get hurt, maybe you should stop foolling yourself into thinking they are our targets.

ZIM - "Cold comfort is that it was done, given that troop deployments ran policy rather than the reverse. We'd still have to pay, without result. "

You're right someone has to pay for it. Maybe we should collect from all those countries that owe us money for say, fighting their wars, helping them out of depressions and economic crisis?

old jong

03-20-2003, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by red5angel

Make no mistake this attack is about protecting americans, but it is also about protecting the free world from fanatical terrorists. It can work both ways. However while the UN sits on its a$$ and discusses it all, we are out doing something.

...;) Are you plagiating Bush now?...(Make no mistake!...)
This is propaganda,nothing more. The fact that most of the civilised world is sitting on his a ss...:rolleyes: should mean a little something to anybody with some common sense. The UN has a role to do in things like that,precisely in preventing unilateral attacks that could cause devastating results in the future. I am affraid the only results of your "doing something" will be to unite the whole arab world against the U.S. and cause even more fanatical hate about it. It would be wiser to try to find and correct the causes of this fanatism and terrorism instead of killing innocent people. (IMO)

BeiTangLang

03-20-2003, 12:51 PM

You know, if Taiwan had been supporting terrorist activities aginst China, hiding chemical & nuclear facilities from inspectors whilst building vehicles to deliver them (rockets, missiles, unmanned delivery drones, etc.) you can bet your @ss that China would not even have mentioned it to the UN before blowing the sh!t out of their targets & taking care of buisness.
Historicly China does not care what other countries think about what they do to protect what they preceive as threats to their country & I doubt that they ever will.

BeiTangLang

03-20-2003, 01:06 PM

I find it interesting that all the Iraqies that I have hear on the radio (bbc, ITN etc., non-us reporters) are in full support of the US doing exactly what they are doing. If Husseins own people out from under a restrictive thumb say this, why does the rest of the world have a problem with it?

red5angel

03-20-2003, 01:06 PM

you know Old Jong, people have been saying for years, everytime we get into any sort of conflict in the middle east, that the whole arab world it going to unite up against the US and still I have yet to see this.
Frankly I am thoroughly underimpressed by the UN and its ability to do much of anything.

ZIM

03-20-2003, 01:15 PM

You're right someone has to pay for it. Maybe we should collect from all those countries that owe us money for say, fighting their wars, helping them out of depressions and economic crisis?

We've always done that. In WWII we did the same. Why not now? To be sure, the bill always comes due. [Father of a Spanish friend: "the Americans are the kindest people in the world, they'll do anything. For a price." ;) ]

None of that bothers me, BTW.

-----------------only this does:
"Slaughtering people is not going to free them."

Destroying the regime that oppresses them does.

- I can't find within our Constitution anything that says we are required to bring 'freedom' [however defined] to any other country but our own. To me, the threat to us from SH [& just him!] was speculative and remote- he was a threat more to his region than ours. Yep, we're removing that threat and quick.
But I'm thinking the middle east is probably gonna become less stable as a result of how it's being done... There's a lot of nuts left there with longer reach, deep pockets. Just looking down the pike and trying not to have the typical American sh it-through-a-tin-goose memory/attention span.

Anyway, That'd be wholly our mistake- we blew off the UN process and 1441 is now consigned to historical artifact as a dead document- it doesn't apply. Is that good? I don't know. The UN didn't have teeth for us to kick in. Will they get any in the future as a result of this? Do you think the UN has a role to play in a better world?

Not offering easy answers here. Real life is nuanced, complex and ironic, far too often.

Edit: i wrote this before your answers to OJ. Still...any role for the UN? I don't think at all that the Mid East is gonna unite, nope... only the religious radicals have ever done this.

red5angel

03-20-2003, 01:29 PM

ZIM, ever heard the saying "It takes a community to raise a child."? It's not in our constitution to take freedom to other people but its our perogitive to protect ourselves and all of the nations of the world should be responsible for what is going on in the neighborhood. I don't buy that its none of our business and 1441 failed and failed miserably and veen more embarrassing was thet the UN not only allowed it to fail at the suffering of the Iraqi people, but that they would have continued to let it fail and to let the Iraqi people suffer.

fa_jing

03-20-2003, 01:36 PM

There is a lot of rhetoric on both sides of the China-Taiwan divide that is simply that, rhetoric. If you took the KMD leaders of years pasts' words at face value, it would be grounds for forceable removal of that leadership. Because they spoke of "re-taking" China, of attacking China, etc. And truly, they are a group of about 30% of the Taiwanese (I'm speaking of the mandarin Chinese Nationalists) that have done the most possible to oppress the other 70% of fujienese taiwanese and their culture, and these would certainly be better off without their oppressors. I disagree with Red5 about the civilian population, if they could the Iraqi people would overthrow their government, but they can't because those who hold the guns receive enough benefit from assisting the current regime that they are willing to oppress their own countrymen. There are other methods by which a minority can entrench itself in power contrary to the will of the people - remember the Qing Dynasty? There is no democracy in Iraq and the people themselves are held hostage to the regime. However, Saddam has killed more of his innocent countrymen yearly through diverting food money to build his military, than are likely to die in this war, so from a humanitarian standpoint I think the war is just. Similarly, the people of Taiwan would overthrow their oppressors if they could - fortunately as a RECENT democracy, political changes are already starting to happen in Taiwan that are beneficial to the general population. The US has supported the KMD as they thought they would be the most dedicated to countering mainland China - not exactly the moral high ground. But again, fortunately democracy and equality are gaining ground in Taiwan and certainly no violent intervention would be justified at this point. To those who haven't paid attention, China wants to invade Taiwan not because they fear the ex-mainlander Nationalists, but rather because they want to take direct control of Taiwanese economic resources and its relatively advanced society. Kind of like Iraq invading Kuwait, not the same as US invading Iraq.

FWIW, I think this war is about bringing stability to the region for defensive purposes, and gaining influence for the US. There are other reasons but they are secondary. I'm not against it.

old jong

03-20-2003, 01:45 PM

This is your opinion and I respect it Red5Angel. But ,who really knows about the future?...Who ,in his right mind would have imagined the towers falling down?...
Make no mistake...;) Nobody is wishing something bad for a friendly country. It more a worry for it and the possible consequences of it's actions.The leaders of most of the world have legitimate doubts about your country actions.They are as capable and intelligent as your leaders and their opinions as UN members should be respected also.Let's hope for the best.

ZIM

03-20-2003, 01:47 PM

ZIM, ever heard the saying "It takes a community to raise a child."?

Sure- 2 thoughts: never would I allow my community to raise my child. Too many village idiots. &
The UN is a community.

I don't buy that its none of our business

I never said that it wasn't. I am saying let's put the proper weight where it belongs: he was more a threat to his neighbors. Its cool, no problem, there's a relation to our interests- just not a direct threat, so I'd like it if we stopped playing that media wordgame with the world- they can see through it, why not us?

A Saudi woman wrote on the net that they see our media and say to themselves, "THIS is what free speech gives you? Lies? Why should we want this?"

oh yeh- i got nothing against you, man, just talking.