"Alternate States"

[ZIM]

The term 'aternate states' gets thrown around sometimes when we're talking about qiqong and meditation, and I just wanted to say that I think the term is both inadequate and misleading, and shows a misunderstanding of what qiqong is about.

This psychological area/subject within qiqong is controversial, so i do enjoy taking it on, sure. But lets just get it straight:

'Alternate states' refers [to me] as a temporary thing, and wholly mental/spiritual, a kind of Union with the infinite, esp. within meditation, and its available to anyone of any religious tradition, so there shouldn't be any problems with it. Its transcendental and appropriate to mionks and such. Sometimes ppl blow that up into regions it doesn't belong in, IMO.

What I get from/go after in qiqong is more something that I'd term 'heightened awareness' and transformation- going from one state- bodily- to another on a permanent basis, if i can achieve that. Iron palm is only one example of that, as is health and poise, combat effectiveness.

Anyhow, just a private complaint.

[Serpent]

'K. Thanks.

[prana]

I agree with you

perhaps though, it may be possible that our everyday state is in fact, an alternate state :D

[Vapour]

My use of meditation is more for breathing exercise and relaxation of my mind than anyting else. So, I don't know much about this topic.

Obviously, there must be more technical aspect to meditation than correct posture and breathing and imagining circulating qi around your body. My instructor did warn me about strange feeling while meditating but I never got to that stage.

Anyway, can anyone explain me technical side of meditation regarding mind. Be aware and relax is a nice advice but bit too simple for me.

[ZIM]

serpent- I knew this was going to be taken as a bit off... but if you've been looking at some of the threads like 'ninjutsu and christianity' or 'can qiqong make u crazy' you know what i'm saying here. Its a side topic and it didn't really fit in those threads. Anyway, we keep getting into those conversations and so maybe we need to point this difference out.

prana- thats the buddhist take. ;) I'm just highlighting that spirituality is related to, but not the whole of, qiqong. You're seeing that, so thanks!

vapour-
My use of meditation is more for breathing exercise and relaxation of my mind than anyting else. So, I don't know much about this topic. Thats a valid use for meditation. What I'm referring to is the use of meditation for [typically] religious purposes, spiritual qiqong. Its a valid part of kung fu in some cases [spirit possession, etc] but in others it gets off track. IMHO, you can't get to doing 'qi knockouts' using trancedentalist methods and thats what a lot of ppl are selling in the big bad world. A lot of ppl just see qiqong as being that, can't see the difference *and* relation to solid qiqong. It isn't the thing in itself- its a side issue.

That side issue is a sloppy one, Union with the Infinite, etc. Is that the goal of MAs? No, IMHO, though that goal is a good one is & of itself. Kind of a fine line.

The technical side of meditation? I suppose we could go there, although that wasn't what I wanted to discuss. :)

[_William_]

I found a neat page on trance meditation

http://www.astralpulse.com/guides/oobe/oobe_3.htm

It also talks about weird things like astral projection, which I dont really know about... but its interesting



Deep Trance
The level of trance you achieve depends greatly on your relaxation, concentration skills and will power. To enter a deeper trance, i.e., Theta level and beyond, you have to concentrate much more and for much longer, on the mental falling sensation aided by breath awareness. The first level of trance, i.e., when you get very heavy, is quite deep enough for projection. I strongly advise against forcing yourself deeper than a light trance, until you have plenty of experience with the trance state.

How can you tell if you are entering a deep trance? There are four very noticeable symptoms:

An uncomfortable feeling of cold that doesn't make you shiver, coupled with a steady loss of body heat.
Mentally, you will feel very odd and everything will feel extremely slooooow. Your thought processes will slow down as if you had been given a strong pain killing injection.
You will feel disassociated from your body, i.e., a strong floating sensation and everything will seem far away.
Total physical Paralysis.
Note: These four things, ALL TOGETHER, signify you are entering a deep trance.

Do not mistake the mild floating sensation you sometimes get with light trance, i.e., as you astral body comes loose. Or the slight loss of body heat from sitting still for a long time and the mild paralysis, i.e., the heaviness, for a deep trance. The sensation of deep trance is quite uncomfortable and unmistakable for what it is.





A trance feels like: Everything gets quieter and you feel like you are in a much bigger place. There is a very slight humming feeling in your body. Everything feels different. It feels a bit like putting a cardboard box over your head in the dark, you can feel the atmosphere change. It's like everything goes fuzzy or slightly blurred. Any sharp noises, while in trance, feel like a physical blow to the Solar Plexus.



All this was taken from the site.

Thoughts? Personally, I never knew that deep trances were uncomfortable. But then, I've never been in a trance
:)

[prana]

my version goes like this.

An intense bliss, not too far unlike sexual bliss, with kinda a heat, rising from the center of the body spreading out in all directions. The mind is incredibly crisp, all sounds are clear and alll sensations heightened. The body is clearly a highway of "rivers" but none the river greater than the river that rises from the center to the crown.

[dezhen2001]

prana: i have experienced something very similar to what you just described :)

dawood

[ZIM]

Thats a dissociative deep trance, sometimes that occurs in relation to hypnosis or self-hypnosis. Its right at that time, the zen master would wack you on your shoulder blades....*thwack* 'Wake Up!', he would shout. ;)

What prana and dezhen mention is closer, IMHO, to what I go after, 'cuz its more one's own body, going as a unit towards a transformative moment, hopefully to be kept permanently. Call it an 'associative' deep trance, if you like.

If you follow those trance steps, keep to the view that you are radiating from your center outwards; that should make it a good deal less uncomfortable. YMMV though, and IMHO.

on edit: transformation: can you discuss/define it for you? For me, I mean literally on a cellular level...

[dezhen2001]

Zim:

i dunno about a cellular level dude - im not there yet :) But i do know, especially after doing Qigong then Meditation all over my body comes the usual tingling and unconscious muscle twitching until i finally relax... sometimes i can feel my circulation quite clearly and many other things.

More important is what happens to my mind. Ours is natural so it usually takes a while to let my thoughts come and go and quieten my mind. Then just let it be.

i find it very interesting as i am really connected and experiencing many things with my body - though not guiding or forcing them, just observing.

as far as transformation - im thinking more in the results i gain from training, its really quite apparent in me when others see me... the "spirit" in my eyes, posture, mental clarity, focus etc.

dawood

[ZIM]

Does the body rule the mind, or the mind rule the body?

Do you get sick less? Less headaches? Thats what I mean by 'on the cellular level'. Iron palm, etc. also.

The radiating bliss, well, thats connection at a base level, and a host of other things besides.... it all adds up! :)

So, maybe you are there, but your body hasn't told your brain yet. Bugger all! :p

Note: I'm really not trying to come off as if the spiritual angle, the mental things, are not 'true' qiqong in some way... I just feel we get sidetracked in the forums so much that it doesn't help understanding...

[dezhen2001]

hmmm... i thought u meant something else - of course all that :)

dawood

[ZIM]

I was just thinking:

If I were 7* I would've started the whole thing off with something like:

"Only people with healthy bodies have balanced minds. Flame on!" [WRT body ruling mind or mind ruling body] :p :p

Ah, it's enough. Thanks everyone.

[Former castleva]

What is social psychology´s take on this? ;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

From my own experience and training.. meditation is the gateway to "direct experience".. silencing the mind, so that prejudice doesn't alter the perception of the experience.. Tingling, twitching, bliss, etc.. are always present, we have simply been programmed to behave in certain ways, to experience in certain ways.. Meditation is a form of deprogramming, a chance to feel and experience the fullness of being human.. we can categorize and label so much of the meditative experience that it becomes another ritual, another deception.. Once the mind is quiet form becomes formless, spontenaeity arises, we become present in the current unfolding experience.. this is extremely beneficial in the MAs, no longer are we strategizing and thinking the art, we ARE the art.. One of the greatest benefits of TAi Chi is it's training for movement in meditation.. training us to respond "naturally", unconfined by preconceived patterns..

Just my penny and a half.. Be well..

[ZIM]

What is social psychology´s take on this? It wouldn't really have one, at least not one that would speak directly to the phenomenon. Actually, I don't think that pure neuroscience would either- psychoneuroimmunology might, but only in part.


Meditation is a form of deprogramming, a chance to feel and experience the fullness of being human.. Agreed. Its often a temporary thing, even while ideally it shouldn't be. I was trying to differentiate between terms that are casually thrown about on various threads. Too often, IMHO, persons who are not familiar with either qiqong or meditation become fearful thru these 'rumors'. ;)


we can categorize and label so much of the meditative experience that it becomes another ritual, another deception.. Not my aim, here. ;)


Once the mind is quiet form becomes formless, spontenaeity arises, we become present in the current unfolding experience.. Thats the profound benefit of meditation. Qiqong, however...? ;) :) I believe there's a difference, and that difference is valuable to reflect on, on & for it's own merits.

Peace

[Former castleva]

lol Zim,I was just fooling round. :)
I do know little about psychoneuroimmunology but I really do not get what you exactly mean.
Obviously these kinds of discussions really are not looking for smart-ass explanations for these subjective experiences. :)
But anyways to add some more stuff we can also point out that in meditation superior parietal lobe may show very little activity (feeling of silence,"quiet") which can really play with your "mind".
As in related disorders,it may additionally be hard to tell a difference between oneself and outside world as "in harmony with the universe" or whatever goes.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Indeed, QiGong is different from meditation.. but, not much.. Too much of the QiGong i have been exposed to loses sight of the goal in favor of the ritual (ie: forms, mudras, visualizations, etc...). My own experience is that while in a meditative state, while the senses are greatly heightened we can sense the rythmns and cycles of our bodies, we can subtly guide energy with will and intention.. Forms are useful only to expedite the process from an efficiency perspective, they are not "necessary".. it's sort of like racing a car on bad roads (no forms) or good roads (forms).. ultimately, intent, will and mind direct the action.. spirit supplies the inclination to do so..

Be nice!! i didn't say i was right, only that this has been my experience..

Be well..

[ZIM]

I do know little about psychoneuroimmunology but I really do not get what you exactly mean. 'S'allright. Maybe it'll be clearer in a sec. ;)


Be nice!! i didn't say i was right, only that this has been my experience.. I am, actually! :) And I do respect what you're saying- its a very valid point.

Here's kind of what I was getting at with all this: Transformation. What is it? How does it occur?
It might be:

spontaneous or gradual
physical or mental
temporary or lasting
externally or internally induced [iron palm? red palm?]
come through grace or intention [thats an interesting one!]
invisible or manifest to others
progressive [ideally], regressive [the mistakes, hmm?] or *digressive* [a change of state, but not 'upwards' or 'down']

maybe others...are you feeling the pull of yin/yang here? :)

Now, I AM keeping qiqong as *transformation* separated from meditation as *transcendence* in particular, but I do admit there are areas of overlap. That does indeed maen that its a continuum, not a separation, truly..

What do you think of this? I'm actually pleased that you're responding on this- you're making me think on it more... :) anyhow I meant a deeper thing than what maybe came across at first...

And all IMHO, BTW.. thanks

[Former castleva]

"Psychoneuroimmunology is a rather new science which tries to understand the interactions between the immune system, being the defence apparatus against ill making intruders or malfunctioning cells of an organism, the nervous system, controlling all body functions, and the (more difficult to define) psyche (PS). "

Without psycho/neural additives,immunology is a medical specialty,if interesting one.
Makes me think of neuroendocrinology,small subspecialty of neurology,while different.

[ZIM]

tries to understand the interactions between the immune system, being the defence apparatus against ill making intruders or malfunctioning cells of an organism, the nervous system, controlling all body functions Right. This is the part i'm after in relation to qiqong- 'body ruling mind or mind ruling body'? Maybe both?

FWIW- i'm not really trying to be clever or anything, just posing questions, seeing your thoughts, offering mine... i can't say what your practice might be or what you're after.

Too much of the QiGong i have been exposed to loses sight of the goal in favor of the ritual (ie: forms, mudras, visualizations, etc...) This is one of the problems with a lot of qiqong, yep. Maybe not rituals/traditions per se, but losing sight of goals, yes! Thats why I'm writing this at all...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Thanks for provoking contemplation.. it is refreshing..

I lean toward continuum.. but, that's my physics background.. yet, it seems that there is interdependence at every level (yin/yang).. i sense that transformation hints of intentional while transcendence may occur spontaneously.. ultimately, i sense we are One thing behaving many ways, thus the tendency toward continuum..

A cohort of mine once said "we exist in a 3 dimensional matrix where consciousness, opportunity and possibility intersect".. i still ponder the implications.. At the root of the issue J. Krishnamurthy asks, "are we what we think we are, or.. are we that which does the thinking".. that circular question still drives me mad.. Another quote that i like is "choice and deed are born of situations.. intent, however, is a signature of the soul"..

As for Qigong, it seems to transcend all levels of existence.. it exists regardless of awareness or intent.. we can only enhance or degrade its usefulness..

Of course this is only my own opinion.. Be well..

[ZIM]

ultimately, i sense we are One thing behaving many ways, thus the tendency toward continuum.. Isn't that cool? I'm getting the idea that you come from a buddhist perspective, even if not actually buddhist. One of the cool things i ran across in this was the story of the Panchen Lama's various incarnations- in that, it seems there were times when the same incarnation was present in more than one body at the same time. To make that possible, it'd have to be "One thing behaving many ways" :D :)


A cohort of mine once said "we exist in a 3 dimensional matrix where consciousness, opportunity and possibility intersect".. i still ponder the implications.. At the root of the issue J. Krishnamurthy asks, "are we what we think we are, or.. are we that which does the thinking".. that circular question still drives me mad.. Another quote that i like is "choice and deed are born of situations.. intent, however, is a signature of the soul"..These, I'm liking muchly!
transcendence may occur spontaneously.. This is the heart of Zen awakening, IMHO, and that is why I'm noting differences.. ultimately, they are of one piece, but methods may be different. Mixing it up may not be a good thing... "Clarity!" shouts the monk...

[dwid]

"are we what we think we are, or.. are we that which does the thinking"..

It seems that the essence of much of zen points toward the latter. So much of zen practice is about trying to shine a light on the self that observes (IMHO).