watched wing chun in "unseen" ufc 2 prelims last night...

[bougeac]

hi everyone, when the ultimate fighting championships first took off back in 94 , the first 10 tourneys were truly "style vs style", later it just became people entering who cross trained (nothing wrong with that before anyone starts howling)..

anyways, the most interesting ufc fights from a style vs style perspective were the 7 preliminary bouts from ufc2 NEVER shown on pay per view or on the commercially available tape.

i managed to get hold of these fights and watched them last night

here are the fighters, if i get enough interest, i will post a detailed review of each of the fights :

fights in order of occurance

sean dougherty (tae kwon do) vs scott morris (ninjitsu)
ray wizard (kenpo karate) vs patrick smith (kickboxing)
david levicki (wing chun) vs johnny rhodes (karate)
thadeus luster (kung fu san soo) vs frank hamaker (sambo)
albert sierra leon (pentjak silat) vs can't remember (jiu jitsu)
orlando weit (muay thai) vs can't remember (kickboxing)
scott baker (wing chun) vs jason delucia (5 animal kung fu)

as you can see theres a real mix of styles, all the fights are great and theres some VERY interesting outcomes...

[KPM]

Cool! How did you get acces to this? I'd love to see those fights!

Keith

[OdderMensch]

I'm interested in two fights.

sean dougherty (tae kwon do) vs scott morris (ninjitsu)
I saw the ninja fight. He ran at his opponent screaming and got his ass handed to him, he was big, but I always wondered how he won his first fight.

and of course the WC guy, just to keep things topical, BTW how did you get this, can it be purchased or downloaded anywhere?

[pseudoswitch]

Where can we get hold of this footage? :)

Isn't it strange how many styles decend into a kickboxing variant under hight pressure? I doubt there was much ninjutsu taijutsu in that match, hehe :)

[t_niehoff]

bougeac,

I've seen those as well, and have had the opportunity to "work out" with Scott Baker when he payed me a visit -- he is much better than his showing may suggest. IMO most TCMA styles, including WCK, simply don't fare well because most people who take them up aren't really interested in fighting -- unlike someone who takes up muay thai or bjj, for example -- and consequently they don't train to fight (and hence never develop fighting skills). TN

Terence

[mun hung]

Originally posted by t_niehof

IMO most TCMA styles, including WCK, simply don't fare well because most people who take them up aren't really interested in fighting -- unlike someone who takes up muay thai or bjj, for example -- and consequently they don't train to fight (and hence never develop fighting skills). T

I agree with you on this. For some reason lots of annoying people that train in TCMA should really be taking up ballet. Turnover in our school is high because most people don't like to work out hard at all. And as soon as some of these people realize that there is some pain involved - you never see them again. And some like you've said have no real interest in self defence. I was just telling a friend yesterday who was thinking of joining that our Wing Chun school was a fighting school. I told him there were many other "fun" ways to lose weight like swimming, sports, etc. as this was his real goal. Oh well!

bougeac - before you start thinking that we've highjacked your thread let me say that I would love to seen some of the unseen UFC footage you're talking about.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Bougeac...I would love to see these tapes also!!! Where can they be found?

[[Censored]]

I'd also like to see the footage!

[KenWingJitsu]

I agree with you on this. For some reason lots of annoying people that train in TCMA should really be taking up ballet.
LMAO Oh y'all know how much I agree with this. I think we have a lot of 'ballet dancers' on this here forum. They're entertaining though...:p

[R Clausnitzer]

Hi, Mun Hung

Whilst I agree with your point, ballet wasn't the best choice, as it is physically much more demanding than Wing Chun and develops greater muscular strength (not to be dismissed as irrelevant...) :)

There was a good writeup of Baker's and Levicki's bouts in a once off (?) UFC magazine when the UFC's first began. Both put up a good fight, in comparison with some other WC representatives who lost in seconds. Levicki's bout was until then the longest lasting bout in the UFC's (somewhere between 10 and 12 minutes from memory). Apparently, he started off with a recognisable WC posture and landed a decent first punch before he got tangled up, with both competitors falling to the ground, where they remained after Levicki's seconds threw in the towel, as he was getting punched repeatedly. Scott Baker lasted more than 4 minutes, with the fight see-sawing back and forth. I have recently read Scott's own comments on the fight on another mailing list.



Regards.

Rolf Clausnitzer


Originally posted by mun hung
Originally posted by t_niehof

IMO most TCMA styles, including WCK, simply don't fare well because most people who take them up aren't really interested in fighting -- unlike someone who takes up muay thai or bjj, for example -- and consequently they don't train to fight (and hence never develop fighting skills). T

I agree with you on this. For some reason lots of annoying people that train in TCMA should really be taking up ballet. Turnover in our school is high because most people don't like to work out hard at all. And as soon as some of these people realize that there is some pain involved - you never see them again. And some like you've said have no real interest in self defence. I was just telling a friend yesterday who was thinking of joining that our Wing Chun school was a fighting school. I told him there were many other "fun" ways to lose weight like swimming, sports, etc. as this was his real goal. Oh well!

bougeac - before you start thinking that we've highjacked your thread let me say that I would love to seen some of the unseen UFC footage you're talking about.

[swordsoul]

Heya guys. I was just wondering about the true effectiveness of WC in a UFC bout considering somethings like eye-gouges are illegal, which seems to me to be a big part of wing chun. (Throat shots, eye shots , etc..) I mean, chain punching Biggy McBig Muay Tai fighter in the chest wouldn't seem like the way to go... if it were "truly no holds barred" do y'all think wing chun would do better? Good point about training for fighting, btw.

love and unity
matt

[t_niehoff]

swordsoul wrote:

I was just wondering about the true effectiveness of WC in a UFC bout considering somethings like eye-gouges are illegal, which seems to me to be a big part of wing chun. (Throat shots, eye shots , etc..) S

Fighting is fighting. If someone's fighting skills rely on being able to use "throat shots, eye shots, etc." -- things that can never be tested or trained against real resistance (things that folks *think* they'll be able to use) -- then they're in for a rude awakening when they actually try to use them. TN

I mean, chain punching Biggy McBig Muay Tai fighter in the chest wouldn't seem like the way to go... S

"Chain punching" has its place, but is certainly not a skilled WCK fighter's entire arsenal (and is actually a small part). TN

if it were "truly no holds barred" do y'all think wing chun would do better? Good point about training for fighting, btw. S

If you can make your skills work in what I call "honorable fighting", including NHBs, then it means you are able to use those skills against resisting, skilled opponents. These same skills, tested and honed, will work should you be assaulted. But what are passed off as techniques "too deadly" and only for "self-defense" are simply techniques that we can't test, we can't hone, we can't practice against resisting opponents, and thus they most often simply won't work. FWIW, I've been poked in the eye, punched in the throat, kicked in the groin, etc. before -- sometimes accidentily and sometimes, I suspect, intentionally -- and kept fighting. The human body is much more durable than these people who promote "self-defense" realize (because they've never really used it), and these things are much more difficult to "pull off" then they realize. If you rely on a biu jee to the throat and it doesn't stop your opponent, what then? You're simply f*cked -- he's on you and you're going down. And why would we even need to develop all our skills if all we had to do was poke the other guy in the eye? TN

Terence

[desertwingchun2]

Originally posted by swordsoul
Heya guys. I was just wondering about the true effectiveness of WC in a UFC bout considering somethings like eye-gouges are illegal, which seems to me to be a big part of wing chun. (Throat shots, eye shots , etc..) I mean, chain punching Biggy McBig Muay Tai fighter in the chest wouldn't seem like the way to go... if it were "truly no holds barred" do y'all think wing chun would do better? Good point about training for fighting, btw.

love and unity
matt

KWJ - Since you actually have competed in these type events - It would be cool if you would share some of your thoughts and/or experiences. How 'bout it?

-David

[swordsoul]

true dat, lol

i understand. but what about strictly in terms of UFC? i read for the first time the idea that wing chun was meant to improve fighting, not be the fighting system itself. interesting.

matt

[t_niehoff]

swordsoul wrote:

i read for the first time the idea that wing chun was meant to improve fighting, not be the fighting system itself. interesting. S

WCK, as I understand it, is a specific approach (though not a formula, not a pattern) toward fighting (other methods, like BJJ, kickboxing, karate, etc. have different approaches) and a means to train and develop that approach; but it is not fighting. WCK can make us better fighters or it can make us worse fighters. I've met more of the latter than the former. TN

Terence

[Matrix]

Originally posted by swordsoul
I mean, chain punching Biggy McBig Muay Tai fighter in the chest wouldn't seem like the way to go... if it were "truly no holds barred" do y'all think wing chun would do better Matt,
If you can't punch the guy, what makes you think you can eye-gouge him? Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating chain-punching per se, but I fail to see why WC would not be effective without these "illegal" techniques. Maybe It's just me.

Matrix

[swordsoul]

i understand about being limited in the techs you practice, etc.. and i didn't mean to imply that WC was all about eye gouging and chain punching (just the first two things in WC that came readily to mind in my example). My whole point was would WC'ers be any more limited than anyone else with the rules being the way they are (for example are there rules that would hurt strict grapplers? My first thought would be no neck-breaking or anything--but then, i've only dabbled in judo..and WC for that matter..) it's kinda related to fighting with an injury, or a different situation.... but i was just thinking with what little i DO know of WC and other styles, would the rules of the UFC put any one style at any kind of disadvantage... I suppose not even strictly WC.

A more extreme version of such a limitation would be like putting i suppose a muay thai guy in a western boxing match.. he couldn't kick, elbow or even hit below the belt... i would think it would certainly limit his techs, but a disadvantage? same goes for the UFC rules and WC or any other style. any significant disadvantages by way of the rules?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by swordsoul
A more extreme version of such a limitation would be like putting i suppose a muay thai guy in a western boxing match.. he couldn't kick, elbow or even hit below the belt... i would think it would certainly limit his techs, but a disadvantage? same goes for the UFC rules and WC or any other style. any significant disadvantages by way of the rules? Sure, I see your saying. Muay Thai likes to use cut-kicks to the opponents legs, and they are very effective. Have a look at this Muay Thai vs. TKD clip to see what I'm referring to. http://www.mcdojo.com/dl_goto.asp?id=5. From the MT fights that I've seen, and I'm not claiming any expertise here, it appears to be a staple of their arsenal. Their hand skills seem to very good as well, but they may have trouble against a western boxer in a western-boxing-rules event. If the event rules are severely limited to advantage of one style, how much of a disatvantage is that. Is that your point?

If so, I would agree to that level, but I don't believe that UFC events would fall into that classification.

Your mileage may vary,
Matrix