The Arrogant Empire

[Vapour]

This is my first serious political post. O.K. title is a flame but the article is very well written and thoughful.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/885222.asp?0cv=KB10

Warning. It is very long article so skip it if your attension span is short.

[red5angel]

I saw some interesting interviews last night and this morning. expatriated Iraqis seem to think that we are doing the right thing because of the kind of guy Saddam is and the kind of regime he has. One guy this morning talked about how he wished the protestors who are protesting this war could have spent a year or two under Saddams rule, because he felt then he would change their minds.
That sort of supports my view on the majority of these protestors. These people are out there for more selfish reasons then they would like to believe in my opinion. Many of then I feel are out there protesting more to feel like they belong to something bigger then themselves. If you watch the video the majority of those protestors are college age kids and adults that look like they are probably also veggans and might have been protestors for the vietnam war. Not all of them but I have to wonder at the psychology of it all. It seems strange to me that people half a world away would assume they know what is best for a small country under a dictator that apparently his own country would like to see him out. While our troops begin to move through Iraq they encounter as much joy from the Iraqis seeing Saddam ousted as they encounter military action.

In reference to that article, I do believe that many countries are scared of the power we wield. Why wouldn't you be? Whats to stop us from going to war with anyone we feel we need to? If we back an enemy of yours you could be in some serious trouble. There is a lot of envy out there as well. Countries that used to, or want to be able to sway the world like we do. But this always happens and countries like this come and go, probably not anytime soon, but things change.
I love America, and I believe in what we are doing in Iraq, even if I also know that it isn't for wholley altruistic reasons, my hope is that our power is alwyas used for "good" and that the world can learn to trust us.

[Nevermind]

I agree Red5. I think it is sickening to see these people protesting when they should be showing support for the men and women who are over there fighting for them. Now is not the time for protest. War is terrible, no one disputes that. But sometimes it is necessary. After 9-11, I fully support anything we do that shows the world that we will not tolerate terrorism. The world will definitely be better off without Saddam in power. Just ask the people who are living under his rule. Our soldiers need to feel like their people back home support them fully. I don't see how these protestors are helping.

[Nevermind]

By the way, anyone find it kind of ironic, maybe even funny that Russia and Germany are lashing out at us for pre-emptively attacking a country? God knows, their history is not filled with such behavior.

[Vapour]

This may not be obvious but my post is not about whether this war is justified or not. The topic is about the way of diplomacy. You have plenty of other thread where you can discuss you-are-traitor/warmonger stuff.

[PaulH]

When will people understand?
AGI) - Rome, Italy, March 21 - "It is very good to demonstrate for peace is very good. Pay attention, however, not to demonstrate against the USA, a great democracy that has spilled its own blood to bring back freedom to Italy." Thus the Minister for EU Affairs, Rocco Buttiglione spoke to the students meeting this morning at the Education Ministry for the 'European Spring' initiative. Take care furthermore, Buttiglione advised, "Not to demonstrate in favour of Saddam, a bloody dictator, who has massacred his people and has brought war to the whole of the Middle East. (AGI)



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TOPICS

[red5angel]

I don't have a problem with the protests but when it gets out of hand then I thnk it isn't about the war anymore its about ego. I would never deny someone the ability to protest but peacefully is the key here. What does it get you to **** fellow community members off by getting in their ay, obstructing roads and causing collateral damage? how does that help anyones cause?
Vapour there are plenty of threads on whether the war is justified as well, all these subjects are closely tied together. I believe it is justified, even more so after seeing those Iraqi on the news who are here in the states, and seeing the Iraqi military falling apart from the inside instead of supporting their glorious leader. I know that here in america if say we were invaded to depose our president, regardless of who he is you would see alot more support for our sid ethen theirs. why? Because it sometimes isn't the person but the system that is the problem. We have legal ways of ousting people we don't want in power.

[PaulH]

Just a commentary replying to the "An arrogant empire". Let the Italians who still see more than 200,000? graves of WWII U.S soldiers in their graveyards speak for the U.S. Deeds speak more eloquent than fair, impassioned speeches.

[red5angel]

I do find it ironic that most of the more vocal countries don't have the best moral history.....

[Waidan]

In order to conserve time, bandwidth, and keystrokes, I'm dubbing Red5 as my posting-proxy in this thread. Carry on. :)

[Vapour]

Originally posted by Stumblefist
By asking the question aren't you making a statement vapour.
The war is on.
What is your purpose?
To spread dissent and disunity among americans and the Western peoples?
Wait til it's over and then do a post-mortem.
But maybe then you will have lost your purpose?
...
Anyway here's a good reason why the some other countries are protesting the war and why diplomacy can't work.
Diplomacy can't work because they other countries are dirty themselves.
...
"The Iraqis fired the Seersucker, a Chinese-made missile, from Umm Qasr."

His article was subtle yet insightful though you may disagree. I posted this because I thought it is a good example of how debate (flame) regarding Iraq could be conducted.

If you read the article carefully, you realised that the author is *for* this war. However, he is critical of how the current administration and Bush went around to get into the war, embarrasing number of countries or politicians who support them/him. And from that perspective, he made more general comment regarding the history of American foreing policy pointing out how being a humble giant serve the interest of America and the world.

Unfortunately, comments in this thread so far seems to be no different from other thread.

[GLW]

Vapour,

it was a long read...but good.

There were a few misleading 'historical' facts and omissions (like mentioning the gasing in 1986 - we supported Saddam then...

There are also instances of gassing that occured during the Iran/Iraq war and some of those killed were attributed to Saddam...he used Mustard Gas and the Iranians used a different type...and it turns out that many of those attributed to Saddam's regime were from Iranian gas instead....

He is still pretty much a monster...provided he still lives...in which case, the word goes from IS to WAS.

I also agree that the disappointment the man reveals with the way the foreign policy has been handled, the short-sightedness, arrogance, and insensitivity is something that the US population needs to think about.

Even if doing something is the right thing, do we want to do things in an insulting and arrogant way or is there not another way to achieve the objectives.

Much of what he pointed out is dead on.

[red5angel]

hehe, he is very quickly becoming a moot point.....

[ZIM]

I also agree that the disappointment the man reveals with the way the foreign policy has been handled, the short-sightedness, arrogance, and insensitivity is something that the US population needs to think about.

THAT is exactly our job as CITIZENS, exactly what we should do, IMO. Support the troops, yes! But do this, too, so any sacrifice is still worth it.

'the difference between citizen and soldier is night and day' -sun tzu. You *need* both! Different jobs...

[red5angel]

"I also agree that the disappointment the man reveals with the way the foreign policy has been handled, the short-sightedness, arrogance, and insensitivity is something that the US population needs to think about. "


However as a counterpoint to that I believe that the world also needs to realise that it has to take some active responsibility in the goings on around the globe. This situation for instance had been left too long in the hands of diplomats and nothing got done, and nothing was going to get done. Meanwhile Iraq stayed a third world nation, and its people suffered.
Diplomacy is the best option but it will not always work.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by red5angel
expatriated Iraqis seem to think that we are doing the right thing because of the kind of guy Saddam is and the kind of regime he has. One guy this morning talked about how he wished the protestors who are protesting this war could have spent a year or two under Saddams rule, because he felt then he would change their minds.That sort of supports my view on the majority of these protestors.

http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/240

http://216.239.57.100/search?q=cache:kRKFr-IsIYsC:www.wadinet.de/News/archiv/iraq/nw1092_firelasttime.htm+%22The+Fire+Last+Time%22%2 Bzainab&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[ZIM]

...the world also needs to realise that it has to take some active responsibility in the goings on around the globe. This situation for instance had been left too long in the hands of diplomats and nothing got done, and nothing was going to get done. Meanwhile Iraq stayed a third world nation, and its people suffered.

Agreed, no argument there.

[Waidan]

From one of Christopher M's links:

"The Iraqis had come with placards reading "Freedom for Iraq" and "American rule, a hundred thousand times better than Takriti tyranny!"

But the tough guys who supervised the march would have none of that. Only official placards, manufactured in thousands and distributed among the "spontaneous" marchers, were allowed. These read "Bush and Blair, baby-killers," " Not in my name," "Freedom for Palestine" and "Indict Bush and Sharon."

Not one placard demanded that Saddam should disarm to avoid war. "


Like I needed another reason to dislike Jesse Jackson, lol.

[GLW]

While I agree with ou Red5, neither you nor I can MAKE the world do its job.

However, we ARE citizens of the US and CAN do our job of holding our leaders accountable for handling this badly....as in sophmorishly....and not looking far enough ahead to prevent such things....like we couldn't see it coming back in 1986.

The world falling short in its responsibilities in no way releases me of my obligation to try to do what I think is my part as a citizen.