no forms?

[foolinthedeck]

"when he came to teach he remembered the conversations with his father and decided to take a simple approach and teach only chi sao from the beginning and not to bother with the forms. After some time he was approached by his students asking to be taught the forms asthey were being criticised by other schools for not having this knowledge. Such was the persistence of their requests that in time he gave in to their wishes and started to teach them the forms. His conclusion was that people wanted to learn more rather than less to make them feel as if they were progressing."
- John Hayes (in Qi Magazine March/April 2003)

discuss?

[reneritchie]

Like learning English without a dictionary or reference. You're limited by memory and experience, and cannot explore, deconstruct, and refer back. You also miss the Lien Gung built into the forms.

[foolinthedeck]

Oops!
by the way the 'he' in the quote in Ip Chun.
fooled again!

[yuanfen]

The forms inserts the grammar of wing chun and not just limited to muscle memory. Chi sao uses the grammar taking into account context and timing and again inserts the extensive memory of the case studies of different hands and persons..Both functions are important. Forms without chi sao is blind, chi sao without forms is
anarchy.

Wing chun is not the only way to self defense- but both forms and chi sao are crucial to the wing chun way. And to me- not a bad way.

[canglong]

I can agree with the conclusion that wing chun kung fu is more than just chi sao.

[anerlich]

Forms provide a vocabulary of techniques. Wing Chun without forms (or, Gu Lao, points, something like the drills you despise so much) is arguably not Wing Chun.

Doing forms alone is not enough.

Doing chi sao alone is not enough either.

Just sparring is also insufficient.

Nor are just those three training methods enough.

To be blunt, I think many of our seniors, and ALL MA magaizine writers, regard the truth as a disposable commodity if they feel their ends are best met by ignoring or embellishing it.

[desertwingchun2]

"..... After some time he was approached by his students asking to be taught the forms as they were being criticised by other schools for not having this knowledge....."

Foolinthedeck - Forms are empty. Drills are empty. Go beyond the form, beyond the drill to gain the knowledge.

-David

[foolinthedeck]

desert:
thanks. nice to have some emptiness, not just another wall.
i hear you.